Pure breeds and Bite-ins

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Varek » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:51 pm

:? What does everyone think of those that are born werewolves and those who are bitten and become werewolves

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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Trinity » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:42 am

It depends on the myth specific in question. Is it a curse, is it a virus, is it a bacterial infection, does it pass on from mother/father down the line, is it dormant until one is bitten?

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Depending on the surrounding myth both have their pros and cons. What's your thoughts on it?
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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Terastas » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:49 am

They'd probably both have their pros and cons. Which would be numerous, but the difference in a nutshell would be that turned werewolves would be a greater risk of exposure for biological reasons whereas born werewolves would pose a greater risk for emotional reasons.

We've already talked at length about all the reasons why shifting for the first time really blows. A born werewolf would presumably be able to bypass all of that -- would already be conditioned to lycanthropy by the time it matures and would be much more at ease with being a werewolf.

On the other hand, being a werewolf from birth would mean a lack of understanding. A born werewolf may think of himself as a separate species instead of a human with a fantastic condition, which may make them more prone to delusional "we should be ruling over the humans" fantasies or other such expressions of hostility. Having lycanthropy from birth would also mean they'd be desensitized to it; would not understand why it's such a big deal because that's all they've known, meaning they'd be more likely to wonder why they need to hide from everyone, or worse, why they can't "share" with everyone.

A turned werewolf, on the other hand, would presumably already know the answers to all of those questions. They'd be a lot less likely to think of themselves as a separate species, would understand perfectly well why they don't reveal themselves and especially why they try to limit the spread of lycanthropy as much as possible. Turned werewolves would therefore be much more reliable in the long-term.

Provided, of course, that they can withstand all the agony of being infected with lycanthropy after maturity. Which not all of them will be able to.
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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Varek » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:54 pm

I always saw lycanthropy as a virus like gene that caused mutation to the host when the levels of like toxins in the body went off the charts. I always did research on things related to this gene like in celtic times viking warriors that were said to become beast on the battle field making them stronger,faster,etc. All the things ive read on all had little things in common like those bitten wouldnt have most control over themselves like those who were born with it. My opinion on the pure breeds would be that their abilities would be more heightened than those who were bitten pretty much like sayin an alpha would be the pure blood while betas would be the involuntary bitten.

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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Meeper » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:48 pm

For the most part, it's a mush, you can make a case for all sorts and fudge things to fit what you like, however, here's my simple take.

Bite in: All pretty much the same, you take a little wolfness, inject it into the person, sit back and watch the fireworks.

Born in: More room for "phenotypes", breeding offers an opportunity to rebuild the werewolf literally from the "cellular" ground up, they could be "perfect", they could be deformed abominations, they could have unique abilities, or just be impotent carriers unable to infect or transform.
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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Grey » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:11 pm

If I had to choose which to be in the next life i would wanna be a Pure Breed. More respect, and your more in control of the change and mindset.
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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Scott Gardener » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:03 pm

In my realm, there isn't a biological distinction, but those born into it never have a painful first shift or have to learn; they shift smoothly by the time they are out of infancy.
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...

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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by ookamianiyou » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:53 am

Well if you are going along the biological and mutation type a bit more than a supernatural or ritual type I would have to say I imagine the pure bloods to be just that. More pure and more wolf, since they are not human. I do imagine the bite ins to have perhaps a slightly more human look in their changed forms just because instead of being true werewolves they are humans that turn into beasts due to the mutation. So a pure blood is a species and a bite in is more of a disease with a similar effect as far as changing but an obvious impurity.

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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Dsnake1 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:33 am

In my book, Pure breeds are the stronger of the two, mainly because they have grown up with everything and have never had straight human dna. They would have better control over themselves in wolf form and total control in gestalt form. This being said, they're mental processes would be more like a wolf's as they grew up half wolf. Their abilities and senses and strengths and such would also be better because they are pure werewolf and have grown and used them more.

Bite-ins would be more like minions under a pure breed. They have little to no control in wolf form and are very suggestable to their new wolf side in gestalt form. This is mainly because they haven't had much time to learn to control their wolf side. This being said, as a bite-in experienced years as a werewolf, they would gain control along with the other abilities and strengths they would lack because of their lack of use and dna.

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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by ookamianiyou » Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:48 pm

Hm I tried to reply to this but it didn't seem to go through...

Anyway I had just said that if it the werewolf were based off of a genetic mutation that I could see pure breds looking more well put together and wolf like. It is what they are and have been all their lives so their anatomy would be evolved perfectly integrate both human and wolf into their werewolf form. A bite in however would be a virus invasion that caused mutation, which I could imagine may not go as well and smoothly as a pure. So perhaps bite ins would look more human than wolf because they are originally humans with just a wolfish strain and may even be more mutated looking and less perfect than those that are pure werewolves. Pure breeds are a species while bite-ins are a mutation, if that makes sense.

If we are talking about a spiritual transformation however you could still say that pure breeds would hold some sort of mark that they are pure. They would obviously be more powerful and have more control over their abilities than one that has been marked to change into one. A bite-in may have trouble harnessing their new power and thus could have a number of impurities about them from more aggressive behavior due to mental confusion and a less successful metamorphasis. Just a thought.

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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Volkodlak » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:41 am

Greetings,

my take on topic:

Pure Breeds:
pros:
+life long human friends wont suspect that you are WW because they meet you with your behavior
+total control of wolf and gestalt form
+stronger than bitten WW
+risk of exposure of condition to humans is minimal
+first change isnt painful

cons:
-you will have traces of wolf behavior in human form(could be suprest if you live between humans entire life)
-being difrent could couse disconfort among humans
-some will think themself above humans

it all depend on their experience with humans pure bred WW that was left at orphange at young age(2-4) and was risen by human parents will have little or no wolf behavior but he can or will be discared by other pure WW-s because of his too human behavior because he left his wolf side behind and develop his human side. but he will have no problems with living with humans and hiding his WW side his senses wont bother him alot because he live between humans and developt tolerance on smely things(cigarete smoke,gas,... )

Bite-ings:

pros:
+WW powers

cons:
-painful first shift
-risk of exposure of condition to humans is high
-friends will notice your behavior and psyhical changes could rise suspicion
-control of other forms will be dificult and risk of attacking human is high

He would be scared and when first change will hapen he will panic(when humans panic they can do all crazy stuff) and add pain and new senses to panic and we have recepie for disaster waiting too hapen so other WW-s will be close too prevent exsposure or attack on human.
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this is my take on topic but each person has unique personality so we cant assume what he will do when he is infected with WW virus. :howl:  :oo
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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Volkodlak » Sun May 19, 2019 5:38 am

^^I know its double post but since then my opinion has changed.

Well let say first that pure breed means werewolf born from two werewolfs and bite-in means bitten werewolf.In reality pure breed should be weaker than bitten, becouse if condition is passed with bite than it means Pure breed werewolf could have less potent virus.

For example: family of pure breed werewolfs could by breeding just with werewolfs for generations leads to that their hybrid form is only 1 feet taller than human form and if family member bites human said human will have diffrence in height 1.5 to 2ft between hybrid and human form becouse he has fully potent virus
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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Uniform Two Six » Mon May 20, 2019 4:25 pm

:?
Um... why would the werewolf born as a werewolf have a less potent case of lycanthropy than a werewolf that was bitten by that same werewolf?

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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Volkodlak » Mon May 20, 2019 11:14 pm

Becouse virus is passed the wrong way its basicaly that virus needs human to be fully potent while two werewolfs would produce healthy offspring its just that virus will be less potent it could be seen similar as incest virus needs diversity
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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Uniform Two Six » Tue May 21, 2019 5:35 am

Ummmm… Okay, so if two werewolves were to have offspring, those offspring would be "healthy" -- meaning not werewolves? But a human that merely got bitten by a werewolf would have a more potent form of lycanthropy than even the werewolf parents would?
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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Volkodlak » Tue May 21, 2019 11:35 pm

I mean healthy as no ilness or deformed offspring that is werewolf its just that with each generation of inbreeding virus becomes less potent. Yes if Werewolf parents if they are not 1st or 2gen gen will have less potent virus than human being bitten.

Example: Werewolf parents are six gen becouse of that their virus potency is yust 65% their offspring will have potency just 60% and if he bittes someone that person would have 100% potency.
in short bitten werewolfs are stronger than pure ones becouse of possesing full virus potency
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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Meeper » Thu May 23, 2019 6:36 pm

That's a curious take on virus potency.

If I'm reading this right, it sounds like the bitten human has no immunity to any version of the virus, whereas a bred werewolf is born immune to a stagnant virus strain. The physiological expression of the virus still occurs in both the bite in and bred bred werewolves because the machinery imparted by the virus is still present, but is able to run rampant in a bite in, while being subject to various "natural selection" adaptions over generations in the bred wolves that make its expression less exaggerated, or less potent in a bred individual. An analogy could be the case of Mary Mallon, aka Typhoid Mary, who professed to have never suffered a typhoid infection despite infecting dozens of others, implying she was born an asymptomatic typhoid carrier. This may have been debunked in Mary Mallon's case, I don't know, but for all I know it may still be a thing that can happen with other infections.


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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Volkodlak » Fri May 24, 2019 6:39 am

thats it Meeper you got it right
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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Uniform Two Six » Fri May 24, 2019 6:31 pm

Um... I'm still not getting this.

1. Why would successive generations of hosts, cause carried pathogens to reduce in efficacy?

2. I may be misunderstanding this, but I was under the impression that there was no rationale for "Typhoid Mary" to have been born infected with it, rather that she was a weird genetic mutant (or something) that allowed her to function as an asymptomatic carrier once subsequently infected.

3. I could see a tolerance for an inherited disease arising with multiple generations, but only with diseases that increase the mortality of offspring prior to sexual maturity (i.e. natural selection factors) -- or alternately that inhibit reproductive capacity. Why would lycanthropy fall into that category?

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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Meeper » Fri May 24, 2019 11:45 pm

Alrighty, let's see if I can pick the bones clean here...

1) In the case of a bite in, you have the host's human genome, and the fully functional werewolf virus genome spliced together. The combination may be called a "pure bite-in" progenitor to what happens next - The bite-in finds another bite-in, shiminy-hoo-haa ensues, and out pops out a 1st gen born-in: Here's the fun part: The resulting genome of the bite-in isn't forced to be similar a close match between male and female parent, for argument's sake the female may have 10% wolf-genetics and the male may have 90% from the same virus, and this may be different enough that when the gamete is formed, genetic overlaps (human from one parent, wolf from the other) may cause some genes to become recessive or re-hybridized in the born-in. A werewolf could be thought of as a human-virus hybrid that displays a phenomenon called "hybrid vigor (google "liger" for an example and enjoy) in a bite-in, and then the genetic remixing and overlapping dampens that vigor in the offspring. I agree that it's not forced to go down like this, or continue on to a progressive reduction of things, but it's still an interesting idea.

Addendum (26 May 2019): Due to genetic integration with the human host, the virus now has a stable (mutual symbiote like?) environment, so its mutation/adaption rate stagnates in comparison to the virus going from host to host via biting. It's reasonable to assume the virus genes that make it into sperm and ova come from this stable environment, and get passed along this way with all the benefits of the sexual reproductive cycle for maintaining stable high quality gene replication into the breed-in offspring.

2) I'm not familiar enough with Typhoid Mary's case, I can't debunk that one way or another. All I can say is that if you've got an infectious disease, but claim to have never suffered symptoms, one interpretation is your mother had the infection, it was passed into your fetus, and by some quirk you survived to adulthood having bypassed some mechanism that causes symptoms in individuals infected post-birth. I can speculate how that works till we're green about the gills, but I can't be bothered right now. :P

3) Who knows, if the male and female genome post werewolf virus infection end up with radically differing genomes as suggested in reply 1), maybe it's tough to get pregnant. But having got pregnant against the odds, it's possible that infertility may be resolved in the offspring by the successive broadening of the genetics in the same way as breeding outside of the family helps prevent genetic disorders maybe?

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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Volkodlak » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:46 am

Uniform Two Six wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 6:31 pm
Um... I'm still not getting this.

1. Why would successive generations of hosts, cause carried pathogens to reduce in efficacy?

2. I may be misunderstanding this, but I was under the impression that there was no rationale for "Typhoid Mary" to have been born infected with it, rather that she was a weird genetic mutant (or something) that allowed her to function as an asymptomatic carrier once subsequently infected.

3. I could see a tolerance for an inherited disease arising with multiple generations, but only with diseases that increase the mortality of offspring prior to sexual maturity (i.e. natural selection factors) -- or alternately that inhibit reproductive capacity. Why would lycanthropy fall into that category?

1.)In my opinion werewolf virus is meant too be transmited to another by bite and not by inbreeding.Inbeeding will make virus less potent by each new generation becouse virus needs fresh hosts, but offspring is already created/born as werewolf so virus is already there it just lacks full potent virus , but virus is still there so bite produces werewolf with full potent virus.
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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Uniform Two Six » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:24 pm

But would you not also have successive generations of infected carriers develop a certain tolerance as well? For instance, the mortality rate of smallpox vs. persons of European stock set against the astronomical mortality rate among Native Americans (an isolated group not previously exposed to it)?

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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Meeper » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:00 am

Uniform Two Six wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:24 pm
But would you not also have successive generations of infected carriers develop a certain tolerance as well? For instance, the mortality rate of smallpox vs. persons of European stock set against the astronomical mortality rate among Native Americans (an isolated group not previously exposed to it)?
This statement is a logical nightmare :P . Okay, tolerant to what? The bite of another werewolf? Among a diverse enough werewolf population there's things to explore there, but for the most part moot point you're already a werewolf. OR, tolerant to the virus floating around in the werewolf's body? In the case of a genetic splice, the latter is probably a moot point, you might as well take a human and talk about them being tolerant to their own cells. However, if the virus doesn't integrate with the host genetically, then you could have either genetic adaptions (e.g. the genetic adaption to malaria that causes sickle cell anemia when mutated), or a virus that hides from the immune system, of which there are plenty of examples in nature, but what tolerance one can develop to that would likely be happy accident, either by mutation or breeding lottery, since infections that hide from the immunity are notoriously difficult for the body to adapt to. Failing all of the above, and a host has an infection that the immune system can build tolerance to, then either the virus will be killed, tolerated (again moot point), or the host will be variously "sick", a sickness manifesting as being a werewolf perhaps.

All of those are already accounted for. The only space for additional parameters that would encompass "But would you not also have successive generations of infected carriers develop a certain tolerance as well?" that I can see would be in asymmptomatic human carriers, who are not werewolves, but who could infect other humans and make them into werewolves. Which would be a cool twist! Even if I do say so myself. :lol:

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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Uniform Two Six » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:58 am

Meeper wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:00 am
...would be in asymmptomatic human carriers, who are not werewolves, but who could infect other humans and make them into werewolves.
Heh. Although biting with human teeth would be an interesting twist.
Skinner: "There's been a development and you two need to get back to Texas. The coroner has been bitten and Ronnie Strickland's body has disappeared from the morgue."
Mulder: "The coroner is dead?"
Skinner: "No... he was bitten. His throat was sort of... gnawed on."
Meeper wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:00 am
Okay, tolerant to what?
I'm just saying that people developing a tolerance to it would be no more or less out-there than successive generations of offspring doing so.

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Re: Pure breeds and Bite-ins

Post by Meeper » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:34 pm

Uniform Two Six wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:58 am
Meeper wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:00 am
...would be in asymmptomatic human carriers, who are not werewolves, but who could infect other humans and make them into werewolves.
Heh. Although biting with human teeth would be an interesting twist.
Skinner: "There's been a development and you two need to get back to Texas. The coroner has been bitten and Ronnie Strickland's body has disappeared from the morgue."
Mulder: "The coroner is dead?"
Skinner: "No... he was bitten. His throat was sort of... gnawed on."
:lol:

On a more serious note, blood donors are a thing. If you're asymptomatic and don't know you're a carrier. Typhoid Mary eat your heart out!
Uniform Two Six wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:58 am
Meeper wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:00 am
Okay, tolerant to what?
I'm just saying that people developing a tolerance to it would be no more or less out-there than successive generations of offspring doing so.
Ahh okay. By the way, this is straying dangerously close to one of my secret story plot points. Stop it! :P

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