Muscles

[Shadow Wulf]

I think that pic looks perfect for a werewolf, its not that muscular. And I dont get why people say the arms looks too human when its half humanor the head looks to human, not every werewolf should have claws or head like goldenwolfs drawings and I believe Goldenwolf herself would agree with me, thats just the way she likes to draw it, she doesnt want them all to be the same way I think.

[Set]

Quentin is, IMO, not a caricature at all. I would love to see something similar to him in Freeborn, and I don't think the vast majority of the audience would have any trouble taking him seriously.

He may seem that way to you but he looks way too cartoony for my taste. That guy could've very easily walked right out of Ice Age. To me he definately falls under the category of "caricature". I could also go on about how his tail looks too small, his chest is too thick, thighs are too long, ect... That picture is by no means perfect.

I have a question for all of you: How can you know that big, bodybuilder werewolves are what the majority of people want? Sure, alot of you here like them. But this message board is only a tiny percentage of the general population. What may be the majority here could turn out to be the minority in a larger group.

[Lupin]

I have a question for all of you: How can you know that big, bodybuilder werewolves are what the majority of people want? Sure, alot of you here like them. But this message board is only a tiny percentage of the general population. What may be the majority here could turn out to be the minority in a larger group.

Because all of my friends, who are the target audience for movies like this, thought that the Van Hellsing werewolf was 'cool'. And their opinions on things seem to work in the in the way that big werewolves look cool to them.

[Shadow Wulf]

Same here, everybody at my school loved how the big werewolf started fighting dracula and that werewolf is the coolest ever.

[white]

I don't really like that werewolf very much, actually. But it's a huge improvement on standard hollywood fare, and that's good. [rul=http://www.deviantart.com/view/25538683/]This[/url] is much closer to my ideal (it's not perfect either, but I'm not going to rant about it here). But I'm happy with most things that even approach my ideal, as that's a huge improvement on the usual.

[Vuldari]

...allthough I AM making a strong push against super muscular Werewolves in this LiveAction film, that does not mean that I do not welcome valid arguments, or just plain old opinions that go against my own.

Contrary to how it may appear, I am NOT trying to manipulate the popular opinion solely for my own personal gain.

I am thinking about the best interests of the whole Pack, and what we would all be most satisfied to see in the final product. I'm just trying to keep things in perspective, hopefully so we can avoid making an unfortunate mis-judgement on the "requested" (Anthony, Tim, Silver and the rest of the crew will inevitably do what THEY think is best in the end, so all of our sugestions remain just that. "Suggestions"), aesthetic and style direction of the film.

What's best for the whole pack? Come on now, how can you say that when you know that a huge number of us disagree with you?

Those of us that are in favor of muscly werewolves aren't idiots. We don't want AB, TA, and Silver to blindly pack on the muscle until the werewolves look totally unbelievable or are unable to move. We want them to add as much muscle as will be aesthetically pleasing to the average audience member, and then stop. Nobody really knows exactly how much muscle that will entail. Also, 'supermuscly' is not really describing what we want. Though we do want werewolves that are taller and more muscly than the average human, that hardly constitutes 'supermuscly'.

NO...I do not think any of you are "Idiots".

...but I DO think that many of you have your brains stuck on Comic Book mode.

I have a question for all of you: How can you know that big, bodybuilder werewolves are what the majority of people want? Sure, alot of you here like them. But this message board is only a tiny percentage of the general population. What may be the majority here could turn out to be the minority in a larger group.

Because all of my friends, who are the target audience for movies like this, thought that the Van Hellsing werewolf was 'cool'. And their opinions on things seem to work in the in the way that big werewolves look cool to them.

Same here, everybody at my school loved how the big werewolf started fighting dracula and that werewolf is the coolest ever.

Yes..that Was cool...

My favorite Film Werewolf EVER even...


But...

THIS IS NOT VAN HELLSING or UNDERWORLD!!!!!!!


Other than featuring Werewolves as primary plot foundation, "Freeborn" is NOT even the same film Genre as those films.

"American Werewolf in London" and "The Howling" were HORROR films...

"Van Helsing" and "Underworld" were ACTION ADVENTURE films...

"Cursed" was...was... Geez...what the hell was that anyway?


But "Freeborn"... "FREEBORN" is going to be a completely different kind of film. Freeborn is NOT an ACTION ADVENTURE or HORROR film.

...so why should the werewolves in it look like they are? ...WHY?...


Van Helsing the MEGA WOLF worked in that film because he was (in that universe) supposed to be the only creature in the world as strong or stronger than the supernatural, superpowered prince of darkness himself, DRACULA.

In that setting, a Superpowerful werewolf makes sense.

But in a DRAMA like what Freeborn is supposed to be, (which will enevitabley involve some amount of Action, Horror and Supernatural Mystery as well), it would not make sense to cast megapowerful action hero Werewolf characters in the lead roles.


I think the moviegoers of the world would agree with me. ...which is why I'm trying to talk you all out of DEMANDING that Anthony cast Van Helsing -like werewolves in dramatic roles...resulting in alot of "WTF?!" type stares from the moviegoing pulblic when they see the film.

Im just trying to save us all a shower of ridicule that we cold get after they see a werewolf built like Vin Diesel cry and ask us..."What the HELL were you thinking?!..."


...you DO realise that "Freeborn" is a DRAMA and not an ACTION film...don't you?

[white]

Very, very, good points. *agrees vehemently*

[Lupin]

THIS IS NOT VAN HELLSING or UNDERWORLD!!!!!!!


Other than featuring Werewolves as primary plot foundation, "Freeborn" is NOT even the same film Genre as those films.

The people who go to see this aren't going to know that or care until after the credits. They're going to see it because they see a trailer and go "Ooh cool werewolf."

...you DO realise that "Freeborn" is a DRAMA and not an ACTION film...don't you?

More than you would think. I already covered it anyway. Like I said, before, even in a serious drama film there are certain 'movie rules' that are always followed. This would fall well within the susupension of disbelief necessary for a drama involving creatures that have the ability to change between human and wolf.

[Renorei]

Quentin is, IMO, not a caricature at all. I would love to see something similar to him in Freeborn, and I don't think the vast majority of the audience would have any trouble taking him seriously.

He may seem that way to you but he looks way too cartoony for my taste. That guy could've very easily walked right out of Ice Age. To me he definately falls under the category of "caricature". I could also go on about how his tail looks too small, his chest is too thick, thighs are too long, ect... That picture is by no means perfect.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but to me he looks great. Of course, the CGI could be polished a little to add realism, but in terms of the overall body, he definitely fits my views of a werewolf. Of course, he's not absolutely perfect, but he's darn good. I agree with you about the tale, though. (And, something about his head looks a little odd, too.)

I have a question for all of you: How can you know that big, bodybuilder werewolves are what the majority of people want? Sure, alot of you here like them. But this message board is only a tiny percentage of the general population. What may be the majority here could turn out to be the minority in a larger group.

I would normally apply the same question to you, and the faction of people who like non-muscly werewolves.

However, I will instead respond by suggesting that we look at what, and who, sells well in Hollywood, generally. Of course there are some exceptions, but generally, when it comes to fantasy creatures such as werewolves, bigger and better is what people seem to want.

...allthough I AM making a strong push against super muscular Werewolves in this LiveAction film, that does not mean that I do not welcome valid arguments, or just plain old opinions that go against my own.

Contrary to how it may appear, I am NOT trying to manipulate the popular opinion solely for my own personal gain.

I am thinking about the best interests of the whole Pack, and what we would all be most satisfied to see in the final product. I'm just trying to keep things in perspective, hopefully so we can avoid making an unfortunate mis-judgement on the "requested" (Anthony, Tim, Silver and the rest of the crew will inevitably do what THEY think is best in the end, so all of our sugestions remain just that. "Suggestions"), aesthetic and style direction of the film.

What's best for the whole pack? Come on now, how can you say that when you know that a huge number of us disagree with you?

Those of us that are in favor of muscly werewolves aren't idiots. We don't want AB, TA, and Silver to blindly pack on the muscle until the werewolves look totally unbelievable or are unable to move. We want them to add as much muscle as will be aesthetically pleasing to the average audience member, and then stop. Nobody really knows exactly how much muscle that will entail. Also, 'supermuscly' is not really describing what we want. Though we do want werewolves that are taller and more muscly than the average human, that hardly constitutes 'supermuscly'.

NO...I do not think any of you are "Idiots".

...but I DO think that many of you have your brains stuck on Comic Book mode.

I didn’t mean that you actually think that we are idiots. What I meant was, we don’t need someone else to try and figure out what is best for us. We already know.

I think the moviegoers of the world would agree with me. ...which is why I'm trying to talk you all out of DEMANDING that Anthony cast Van Helsing -like werewolves in dramatic roles...resulting in alot of "WTF?!" type stares from the moviegoing pulblic when they see the film.

Im just trying to save us all a shower of ridicule that we cold get after they see a werewolf built like Vin Diesel cry and ask us..."What the HELL were you thinking?!..."


...you DO realise that "Freeborn" is a DRAMA and not an ACTION film...don't you?

And I think they would disagree wholeheartedly. Nobody is going to complain or ridicule us about the fact that the werewolves look awesome. Most likely, that's what they want anyway.

And furthermore, YOU are DEMANDING non-muscly werewolves as much as we are demanding muscly, if not more.

Yes, we KNOW Freeborn is a drama. We know it as much as you do. Don't suggest that we are lacking in knowledge about Freeborn, merely because our opinions differ from yours.


Once again, sorry if I offended anyone.

[Vuldari]

This would fall well within the susupension of disbelief necessary for a drama involving creatures that have the ability to change between human and wolf.

Are you KIDDING?...

That Beefed up Monolith makes the Van Helsing werewolf look Small.


Aparently, you beleive that "normal" people have "Suspensions of Disbelief" the size of the Golden Gate bridge.

I, on the other hand, have considerably more conservative expectatrions for a project that does not involve huge explosions or 9-minute fight sequences to the backdrop of Hard Rock Music.


...and drawing in audiences by showing off werewolves that Look like Warrior Bad@**es to see a film that involves no such thing would NOT be a good idea.


That would be False Advertising. ...unless you don't like that Freeborn is going to be a Drama and you are trying to change it into the werewolf equivilant of the Spiderman films instead.

I would love to see a kick@** Action extravaganza film involving Werewolves as much as you would, but that is NOT what this is.

...That is NOT the audience this film is being targeted at.

[Edit:]

...what the hell?... You are actually PROMOTING that we model the werewolves after movie trends and chash grabbing cliches? ?

...that is the same train of thought that lead one of Freeborns potental studios to suggest that the female characters be made lesbians and that there should be much more blood and gore...

...sad as it may be, THAT stuff sells too.


HOLY CR**!!!


When this website first appeared, the boards were flooded with cheers of extatic JOY that someone was actually making a werewolf film that DID NOT succumb to lame hollywood trends and cheap audience grabbing tricks.



WHAT happened to all of you?! Why do you WANT these things now?

[Lupin]

This would fall well within the susupension of disbelief necessary for a drama involving creatures that have the ability to change between human and wolf.

Are you KIDDING?...

That Beefed up Monolith makes the Van Helsing werewolf look Small.

Have you actually looked at any of the werwolves in Van Helsing lately? Quentin is a lot slimmer and a lot more well-proportioned than all of them.

...what the hell?... You are actually PROMOTING that we model the werewolves after movie trends and chash grabbing cliches? ?

...that is the same train of thought that lead one of Freeborns potental studios to suggest that the female characters be made lesbians and that there should be much more blood and gore...

...sad as it may be, THAT stuff sells too.

No, I'm just saying that the reaction you expect from people about big werewolves doesn't have any precedent. Cliches and stereotypes are usually there for a reason.

[Ultraken]

Ouch, it's getting ugly in here.

Quentin would be fine if his human form were fairly large and strong as well. The same goes for Van Helsing werewolf. That style is too large for a "normal" build human form, in my opinion. Neither of them is wrong, but neither of them should be typical, either.

My usual convention is that werewolves tend to be very fit and fairly strong by human standards, even in human form, but they do have a variety of builds, just like normal people. Quentin would be on the mesomorphic (muscular) side in human form, probably some sort of athlete (football player, wrestler, weight lifter). Others could be on the ectomorphic (thin) side, like Bruce Lee or other wiry types. Others still could be relatively endomorphic (fat), though rarely should they be truly "obese". For all they are, werewolves are people too, just in better shape. That way everyone can be happy; there'll be someone that looks the way you want. It's also an easy way to make characters more readily recognizable, in conjunction with facial structure, hair/fur color, eye color, and personality.

I definitely want a gestalt form that is significantly taller and stronger than human form, like most everyone here. The question is one of degree. My rule of thumb is about a head taller and 2-3x the muscle mass (not 2-3x overall weight, more like 1.5x, and biased somewhat towards upper body strength). Fat weight would not change, so the gestalt form would appear significantly leaner and more defined. The end result is that a normally-proportioned character become their "heroically proportioned" equivalent, physically impressive but not a hulking brute (unless they were pretty big to start with).

Unless the human form were a complete wuss, no right-minded person should want to tangle with a werewolf (and probably not even then).

(Just my opinion, of course.)

[Renorei]

That Beefed up Monolith makes the Van Helsing werewolf look Small.

Aparently, you beleive that "normal" people have "Suspensions of Disbelief" the size of the Golden Gate bridge.

Now THAT is an exaggeration.

...and drawing in audiences by showing off werewolves that Look like Warrior Bad@**es to see a film that involves no such thing would NOT be a good idea.

That would be False Advertising. ...unless you don't like that Freeborn is going to be a Drama and you are trying to change it into the werewolf equivilant of the Spiderman films instead.?

Oh, so now you are going to criticize our view by suggesting that we are trying to change Freeborn? Please. Just because you can't possibly conceive of a dramatic werewolf movie involving awesome looking muscly werewolves, doesn't mean the rest of us can't. There's nothing wrong with muscly characters being present in dramatic films. Furthermore, I really doubt that a really good, clear view of the werewolf will be shown in the trailer anyway, so it wouldn't really be false advertising.

...That is NOT the audience this film is being targeted at.?

Pshh. Nobody is strictly devoted to only ONE genre. I, and everyone I know, has movies from EVERY genre that we like.

...what the hell?... You are actually PROMOTING that we model the werewolves after movie trends and chash grabbing cliches?

Actually, we'll be going AGAINST most werewolf movie trends. In case you have forgotten, musculature is only one feature of a werewolf. There are many MANY other far more important typical werewolf movie traits which we will be deviating from.

When this website first appeared, the boards were flooded with cheers of extatic JOY that someone was actually making a werewolf film that DID NOT succumb to lame hollywood trends and cheap audience grabbing tricks.

Why do you WANT these things now?

What are you talking about? Granted, I wasn't here at the beginning, but I read most of the old threads. These are the things that we wanted:

-wolfish werewolves (not cattish, or rattish)
-tails
-totally furry
-an appearance that could be frightening, or not.
-intelligent creatures, not mindless beasts
-etc. etc. etc.....

For myself, and I believe many others feel this way too, the ugliness of most hollywood werewolves, mindlessness, and overall non-wolfishness, were the things that we weren't in favor of. Only a handful of people are upset about muscles.

[Renorei]

Ouch, it's getting ugly in here.

Quentin would be fine if his human form were fairly large and strong as well. The same goes for Van Helsing werewolf. That style is too large for a "normal" build human form, in my opinion. Neither of them is wrong, but neither of them should be typical, either.

My usual convention is that werewolves tend to be very fit and fairly strong by human standards, even in human form, but they do have a variety of builds, just like normal people. Quentin would be on the mesomorphic (muscular) side in human form, probably some sort of athlete (football player, wrestler, weight lifter). Others could be on the ectomorphic (thin) side, like Bruce Lee or other wiry types. Others still could be relatively endomorphic (fat), though rarely should they be truly "obese". For all they are, werewolves are people too, just in better shape. That way everyone can be happy; there'll be someone that looks the way you want. It's also an easy way to make characters more readily recognizable, in conjunction with facial structure, hair/fur color, eye color, and personality.

I definitely want a gestalt form that is significantly taller and stronger than human form, like most everyone here. The question is one of degree. My rule of thumb is about a head taller and 2-3x the muscle mass (not 2-3x overall weight, more like 1.5x, and biased somewhat towards upper body strength). Fat weight would not change, so the gestalt form would appear significantly leaner and more defined. The end result is that a normally-proportioned character become their "heroically proportioned" equivalent, physically impressive but not a hulking brute (unless they were pretty big to start with).

Unless the human form were a complete wuss, no right-minded person should want to tangle with a werewolf (and probably not even then).

(Just my opinion, of course.)

Most of us agree that the gestalt form's overall body traits would be determined by their human form. Just thought I'd mention that.

It is the degree to which they would change that we differ on.

[white]

Vuldari has a good point. We're trying not to conform to this sort of thing.

[Ultraken]

Most of us agree that the gestalt form's overall body traits would be determined by their human form. Just thought I'd mention that.

I had noticed that, yes.

It is the degree to which they would change that we differ on.

Fair enough. My only point was the degree of change should be substantial but not overwhelming. The extremes of what we (collectively) want could be covered by differences in human form.

Most cinematic werewolves gain more size in gestalt form than I would prefer, growing to around 7' and doubling in weight. That's fine for stereotypical "monster" werewolves, but a bit much for dramatic "character" werewolves. However, it's not too far off--just one far off .

If a character's human form is athletic and muscular, then their gestalt form should satisfy "muscle wolf" fans. That's all I was saying.

[Vuldari]

Ralith Lupus

As much as I appreciate the support, I think we would all appreciate it much more if you waited untill you have something more significant to say than "yeah...what he said" before you post another message. I'm really not flattered at all.



I would like to add that I fully support the idea of the humans normal physique determining and reflecting thier gestalt forms features.

A skinny human should become what would appear to be (by Werewolf standards) a skinny werewolf, and a person who has been pumping up WOULD look like our freind Quentin here.

...but there is supposedly going to be more than three werewolves in this film, and I REALLY, REALLY don't think that any more than one or two of them should have anywhere Near that level of bulk. I don't even think Bruce Lee, (with all of his iron cord muscle) would get quite as THICK as Quentin. ...but a body builder would.


Not EVEYONE who becomes a werewolf should look like that. (IMHO)

[Apokryltaros]

...you DO realise that "Freeborn" is a DRAMA and not an ACTION film...don't you?

I would sooner lick an active blender while poking at an electrical socket with a fondue fork than watch a werewolf movie where the only thing the werewolves did was sit in chairs and talk about their problems.

[Vuldari]

...you DO realise that "Freeborn" is a DRAMA and not an ACTION film...don't you?

I would sooner lick an active blender while poking at an electrical socket with a fondue fork than watch a werewolf movie where the only thing the werewolves did was sit in chairs and talk about their problems.

Ummm...


...I dare you to go into your local video store and look through the "DRAMA" section to find a film in that Genre that is like that.

Dramas often invlolve one or more of the characters lives being put in jepordy at some point or another. "Air Force One", for example, is considered a Drama, and involves quite a bit of action.

The difference between an ACTION film and a DRAMA is the primary focus.

As a DRAMA, a films tension is more focused on the emotional struggles the characters are facing as they live through thier troubles than the number of people that are beaten up, monsters destroyed or things blown up, but they often (though not allways) involve a respectable amount of action and suspense as the source of thier emotional turmoil.

Likewise, most action films involve at least a little bit of Drama to tie the Chaotic string of action sequences together.

I don't want to see a film about the werewolf Annonomous emotional support group either.

(Well...maybe as a joke, comedy short.)

[Set]

However, I will instead respond by suggesting that we look at what, and who, sells well in Hollywood, generally.

Isn't the entire point of Freeborn to get away from all the Hollywood crap? I suppose we should just let the werewolves be supermodel lesbians who disembowel people at random too.

Don't forget, Freeborn is also trying to be a REALISTIC film. Super bodybuilder werewolves and 30% increases in muscle mass and height is contradicting that. Not to mention it just plain annoys the hell out of me.

[Lupin]

However, I will instead respond by suggesting that we look at what, and who, sells well in Hollywood, generally.

Isn't the entire point of Freeborn to get away from all the Hollywood crap? I suppose we should just let the werewolves be supermodel lesbians who disembowel people at random too.

You've missed the point. You wanted to know why we though people would like big werewolves. If people didn't like a movie, the movie wouldn't sell. You might get large opening weekend, but as soon as everyone told their friends that 'this move was crap', then sales would drop.

[Greylan]

I'd chose closer to mid or more muscular. Maybe a cross between goldenwolf's or rwolf's....... but please...... They shouldn't look like the ones in Harry Potter x.x

[Renorei]

Vuldari has a good point. We're trying not to conform to this sort of thing.

However, I will instead respond by suggesting that we look at what, and who, sells well in Hollywood, generally.

Isn't the entire point of Freeborn to get away from all the Hollywood crap? I suppose we should just let the werewolves be supermodel lesbians who disembowel people at random too.

As I mentioned before, there are a HUGE number of ways that the Freeborn werewolves will differ from your typical Hollywood werewolves. The most important difference will be their minds. They won't be mindless beasts. Also, they won't be ugly, hairless, ratlike, tail-less monsters. Hell, they won't be monsters period. Having them share this one trait (muscles) with Hollywood werewolves will hardly be constituting conformity.

Don't forget, Freeborn is also trying to be a REALISTIC film. Super bodybuilder werewolves and 30% increases in muscle mass and height is contradicting that. Not to mention it just plain annoys the hell out of me.

The whole idea of werewolves in the first place is unrealistic. There’s nothing wrong with suspending belief for a moment. And it doesn’t annoy ME at all. In fact, it makes me very happy.

A skinny human should become what would appear to be (by Werewolf standards) a skinny werewolf,


Not EVEYONE who becomes a werewolf should look like that. (IMHO)

No arguments here about the skinny comment. Of course, werewolf standards would be bigger than human standards.

And, I agree not everyone who becomes a werewolf should look like Quentin. However, I do think his size should be about the norm, or maybe the upper arc of norm. I don't want a werewolf movie where only one or two werewolves look like Quentin.

[Vilkacis]

*sigh*

Calm down, people. Please.

Is the point of this forum to dictate Freeborn, or is it to talk about what we want to see in a werewolf? Certainly, then, isn't using Freeborn as an excuse to bash someone in the head with your opinion kind of silly?

Forget that. I trust ABrownrigg to do a good job with Freeborn, despite our opinions. We aren't helping him by arguing like this; nor are we bettering ourselves or others. We've all stated why we want to see this or that, and many of us have made it clear we have no intention of changing our opinions or preferences.

What are you waiting for as you persist in arguing? Are you expecting that the other person will have a miraculous conversion to your point of view? Will they say, "Your big, angry words have convinced me."?

You're not accomplishing anything.

Does it hurt you so much that they don't like the same things you do? Or are you just afraid they'll get their way and you'll be left in the dust after waiting so long? Does it not occur to you that they might feel the same way?

Sometimes there are things in life only one person can have. C'est la vie.

This is not one of those times.

Think twice; write once.

And if you find at any time that you are angry, reconsider posting at all. Some things just aren't worth the effort people put into them.

-- Vilkacis

[ABrownrigg]

Anthony runs in blowing a whistle as he just finished watching the Cowboys/Bronco's game. (we lost) He makes several bizzare hand signals and points in several directions, including up and down for some reason, blowing his whistle non-stop, and at the same time throwing little yellow flags all over the place.

After a few moments of this, he drops the whistle out of his mouth, sets up a lounge chair on the fifty yard line, and sits. He pulls out a dry martini and clears his throat.

Ahem, Okay.


I have to say this has been the most entertaining thread i've seen in a long time. Nothing like a good heated debate. (sip), now as we are all on the same side here, and by side I mean we all want a good werewolf film. Let me be blunt, and ambiguous in my decision on this matter.

.... (sip).. you're all right.

We are all individuals. And if we only had ONE werewolf in this movie, we might have to make that kind of call. But we have werewolves in this movie that are short/tall/skinny and so on. And as fur with wolves varies in color, musculature will also vary from character to character for two reasons.

First, on a realistic basis. (sip) All these different size and muscled people, are not going to make werewolves with the same muscle size, some will be bulky, some more streamlined.

Second, on a thematic basis, and a practical basis. We have several scenes with bunches of werewolves all together, I'd like to be able to tell them apart in gestalt form, and link them to their characters. And, I would also like to show differences on a weaslely looking person making a weasley looking werewolf. If being a werewolf brings more of 'who you already are' to the surface, then it has more depth for the characters in my humble opinion to make thier muscles, and musculature based upon not just WHAT they are, but WHO they are.

Again, if I had ONE werewolf in this, it might be an issue, but there will be multiples to go around.

(sip)... Ahhhh, game day.

Happy thanksgiving everyone!!!!

He then gets up from his lounge chair, slaps everyone on the butt, and hustles back to the dugout... only now realizing he's been on a baseball field all along.

Anthony Brownrigg