Muscles

[Vuldari]

.... (sip).. you're all right.



First, on a realistic basis. (sip) All these different size and muscled people, are not going to make werewolves with the same muscle size, some will be bulky, some more streamlined.

Second, on a thematic basis, and a practical basis. We have several scenes with bunches of werewolves all together, I'd like to be able to tell them apart in gestalt form, and link them to their characters. And, I would also like to show differences on a weaslely looking person making a weasley looking werewolf. If being a werewolf brings more of 'who you already are' to the surface, then it has more depth for the characters in my humble opinion to make thier muscles, and musculature based upon not just WHAT they are, but WHO they are.

...that sounds even Better. Nevermind average %age increases in muslce mass. This way, you almost don't even know what to expect. A Large, but surly, solumn and bitter old man might come out looking pale and frighteningly ghoul-like, while someone small and unsuspecting may secretly harbor a monsterous will and ambition that would turn them into a towering, majestic or terrifying beast.

...duuuuude...

[ABrownrigg]

...yes,

bask in the glory of me.

[Figarou]

...yes,

bask in the glory of me.

Shall I? Oh...why not!!!

[Renorei]

.... (sip).. you're all right.



First, on a realistic basis. (sip) All these different size and muscled people, are not going to make werewolves with the same muscle size, some will be bulky, some more streamlined.

Second, on a thematic basis, and a practical basis. We have several scenes with bunches of werewolves all together, I'd like to be able to tell them apart in gestalt form, and link them to their characters. And, I would also like to show differences on a weaslely looking person making a weasley looking werewolf. If being a werewolf brings more of 'who you already are' to the surface, then it has more depth for the characters in my humble opinion to make thier muscles, and musculature based upon not just WHAT they are, but WHO they are.

...that sounds even Better. Nevermind average %age increases in muslce mass. This way, you almost don't even know what to expect. A Large, but surly, solumn and bitter old man might come out looking pale and frighteningly ghoul-like, while someone small and unsuspecting may secretly harbor a monsterous will and ambition that would turn them into a towering, majestic or terrifying beast.

...duuuuude...

That works for me. Heh, this way I'd be even better than I would be if we went by average %age muscle increase.

[Shadow Wulf]

Same here, everybody at my school loved how the big werewolf started fighting dracula and that werewolf is the coolest ever.

Yes..that Was cool...

My favorite Film Werewolf EVER even...


But...

THIS IS NOT VAN HELLSING or UNDERWORLD!!!!!!!

Um I wasnt reffering to freeborns werewolf you know. Gosh you automaticly think freeborn when ever we talk about werewolfs.

[Shadow Wulf]

.... (sip).. you're all right.



First, on a realistic basis. (sip) All these different size and muscled people, are not going to make werewolves with the same muscle size, some will be bulky, some more streamlined.

Second, on a thematic basis, and a practical basis. We have several scenes with bunches of werewolves all together, I'd like to be able to tell them apart in gestalt form, and link them to their characters. And, I would also like to show differences on a weaslely looking person making a weasley looking werewolf. If being a werewolf brings more of 'who you already are' to the surface, then it has more depth for the characters in my humble opinion to make thier muscles, and musculature based upon not just WHAT they are, but WHO they are.

...that sounds even Better. Nevermind average %age increases in muslce mass. This way, you almost don't even know what to expect. A Large, but surly, solumn and bitter old man might come out looking pale and frighteningly ghoul-like, while someone small and unsuspecting may secretly harbor a monsterous will and ambition that would turn them into a towering, majestic or terrifying beast.

...duuuuude...

And this is the way Uh Huh Uh Huh I like it.

[Ultraken]

I'd prefer that size and build were relatively predictable, as there are plenty of other features you can do that with. Size isn't everything, as the saying goes; attitude counts for a lot.

[Vuldari]

Same here, everybody at my school loved how the big werewolf started fighting dracula and that werewolf is the coolest ever.

Yes..that Was cool...

My favorite Film Werewolf EVER even...


But...

THIS IS NOT VAN HELLSING or UNDERWORLD!!!!!!!

Um I wasnt reffering to freeborns werewolf you know. Gosh you automaticly think freeborn when ever we talk about werewolfs.

Well...the thing is...I have to assume we are talking about SOMETHING specific...

Otherwise, my answers would have to be ubelievably long and complicated, to account for my varying preferences for different applications of the werewolf mythology.

...for example...I have completely different preferences and expectations for what I'd like a Werewolf to be in Freeborn as I do for something like the introduction of "ManWolf" in Spiderman 5, which would be different from what I would like to see in "Darkstalkers: The Movie" ...and yet still different from what I think would have worked best if ReQuests project had remained the slasher film "Devoured", or what I think "Bubba The Redneck Werewolf" should be like.


I have to choose just one or the other, because it would be exausting to have to mention how I would prefer to handle any specific trait in ever possible way, place and scenario a Werwolf could appear.


That's why I made all that fuss about "Werewolves In General" back when. I just don't know how to talk about all of them at once.

[Renorei]

That's why I made all that fuss about "Werewolves In General" back when. I just don't know how to talk about all of them at once.

Heh heh I guess I'm lucky then. My view of werewolves doesn't vary much, no matter what I'm talking about.

[Vuldari]

That's why I made all that fuss about "Werewolves In General" back when. I just don't know how to talk about all of them at once.

Heh heh I guess I'm lucky then. My view of werewolves doesn't vary much, no matter what I'm talking about.

*yawns*


"...Booooorrrriiiiiiiinnnnnggggggggg..."

[Renorei]

That's why I made all that fuss about "Werewolves In General" back when. I just don't know how to talk about all of them at once.

Heh heh I guess I'm lucky then. My view of werewolves doesn't vary much, no matter what I'm talking about.

*yawns*


"...Booooorrrriiiiiiiinnnnnggggggggg..."

Pfffttttt.....works for me.

[white]

Perhaps you meant they vary, but in the same ways no matter what the kind of movie/book/whatever it was?

[Renorei]

Perhaps you meant they vary, but in the same ways no matter what the kind of movie/book/whatever it was?

Heh heh I guess I'm lucky then. My view of werewolves doesn't vary much, no matter what I'm talking about.

Yeah, more or less. My werewolves are always uber-strong, uber-tough, uber-fast...every kind of uber you could think of, and their bodies reflect it. The degree to which they are 'uber-whatever' however, can vary some. For example, if we're talking supernatural werewolves, all bets are off. If we're talking scientific werewolves, MOST bets are off...if that makes sense.

Other traits I always adhere to:
-totally furry
-very caninelike head (not some weird human-canine mixture)
-digitigrade feet
-tails
-muscly (though not too much)
-overall very impressive looking

My views on werewolves are based on aesthetic appeal. This is what I have found to be the most appealing.

Another factor that influences what werewolves are, to me, is my thoughts on what werewolves represent, to me. To me, werewolfism has always represented the ability to unleash the incredible power within. To show the power of your true self. To convert the power of your mind, soul, and heart, into the power of your body. Physically, I am rather unimpressive. But mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, I am unimaginably powerful, a force, not to be reckoned with, but to run from. If my body was as strong as my mind, heart, and soul...the ability to toss a car would be insignificant.

Of course, when we are talking about 'realistic' werewolves (although there is no such thing), I do attempt to restrain my views a bit, for the sake of other's views. But, I can only restrain it so much.

There is a point for me, where certain ideas of werewolves become almost offensive to me. It's a little hard to explain. But, perhaps this offers at least some understanding.

[Shadow Wulf]

Im the same way as Excelsia.

[Silverclaw]

...yes,

bask in the glory of me.

Will do...*leans back in a foldout chair. Sunscreen, and sunglasses...check


.....I like werewolves.......

[Kavik]

WHAT happened to all of you?! Why do you WANT these things now?

Methinks you're exaggerating the situation a bit. I've seen people here claim they prefer the (overly)muscular werewolf over a more realistic approach, but I haven't seen anyone claim that more action, gore, rauch, etc. is called for. I haven't even noticed anyone state that Freeborn needs to go with a hypermorphic body type. Folks is just spouting opinions, and we all have them.

When I saw Van Helsing in theaters I thought the werewolves were too bulked up and, quite frankly, ridiculous. But it does sell. I would hate to see anything like that in a drama, especially Freeborn. I reckon nobody really wants a drama with Vin Deisel-ish werewolves sitting around discussing, well... anything! But there still needs to be a horrific element to these things we call werewolves, and for many, a big imposing body captures that nicely.

Personally, I thought the best part of the movie Sin City was when Marv, a big scary-looking guy, got taken down by Kevin, a very NON imposing character that may as well have been a werewolf for the ferocity and style he exhibited. A lot can be done with the element of surprise that doesn't require overkill, and I'm hoping to see some proof of this in Freeborn.

[Shadow Wulf]

Hey Vin Deisel isnt all that muscular as you crack it up to be, hes just fit.

http://www.oscillatewildly.org/images/VIN004_1.jpg

And the type of werewolf to be in a movie really calls for the situation and the genre of the movie itself, Van Helsing was all about big monsters, then the werewolfs should be really muscular, and it fit PERFECTLY. Please dont criticise the Van Helsing werewolves if you think it needs to be skinnier in a movie like that.

NOTE: I WASNT REALLY REFFERING TO YOU KAVIK, ITS JUST THAT YOU REMINDED ME OF SOMETHING THAT MANY PEOPLE DO IN THIS FORUM.

[Vuldari]

WHAT happened to all of you?! Why do you WANT these things now?

Methinks you're exaggerating the situation a bit. I've seen people here claim they prefer the (overly)muscular werewolf over a more realistic approach, but I haven't seen anyone claim that more action, gore, rauch, etc. is called for. I haven't even noticed anyone state that Freeborn needs to go with a hypermorphic body type. Folks is just spouting opinions, and we all have them.

I was actually responding to the attitudes behind these comments.

The people who go to see this aren't going to know that or care until after the credits. They're going to see it because they see a trailer and go "Ooh cool werewolf."

However, I will instead respond by suggesting that we look at what, and who, sells well in Hollywood, generally. Of course there are some exceptions, but generally, when it comes to fantasy creatures such as werewolves, bigger and better is what people seem to want.

Since Freeborn will be a "different kind of werewolf movie", then it does not make sense to me to cater the look and feel of the werewolves and the film in general to the portion of the audience who does not care about anything but how scary the werwolves are.

...nor do I think making decisions about the film based on "what sells" should get as much priority as these comments suggest. Rather...I think more focus should be placed on setting the film apart from every film that has come before it. ...and having werewolves that look exactly what the braindead (the folks who make the lousiest movies some of the biggest sellers) masses are expecting a "hollywood" werwolf to look like will not help to make this film stand out in peoples minds.

Also...a film that people remember and talk about months and years after seeing it will be alot better for the Cashell crews reputations than a film that makes a big hit on opening day (solely because the previews drew people in with "Kick A**" looking werewolves) and then is later forgotten because the werewolves in the next film (by a competing studio), looked even MORE "Kick A**".

When I saw Van Helsing in theaters I thought the werewolves were too bulked up and, quite frankly, ridiculous. But it does sell. I would hate to see anything like that in a drama, especially Freeborn. I reckon nobody really wants a drama with Vin Deisel-ish werewolves sitting around discussing, well... anything! But there still needs to be a horrific element to these things we call werewolves, and for many, a big imposing body captures that nicely.

I have never...NEVER said the werewolves should all look or act like wusses. OF COURSE they should all look, at all times, capable of mayhem. ...one just does not need to have 50% of their body mass in their arms and pecks, or be single-minded (complex, but obsessive), fearless characters who never cry to be menacing or dangerous.

...and again...would it be better to go for an overall look with lasting uniqueness, or something that will "SELL" for the initial weekend...untill the mindless hordes realise that this is not a "Terminator" level action film and flock to the next muscle bound star surrounded by explosions like moths to a flame, forgetting about freeborn entirely?

If the werewolves look and move like Action stars, the people watching it will enevitably compare it to other films with "BadA**" looking characters in it...which would lead to the film appearning to be a slow, boring Action adventure in thier eyes, rather than the tense, fantasticly themed drama that it is/will be.

Personally, I thought the best part of the movie Sin City was when Marv, a big scary-looking guy, got taken down by Kevin, a very NON imposing character that may as well have been a werewolf for the ferocity and style he exhibited. A lot can be done with the element of surprise that doesn't require overkill, and I'm hoping to see some proof of this in Freeborn.

I have not seen SIN CITY...but that sounds like you know what I mean. There is nothing suprising or interesting about seeing a big guy beat up a little guy. However, the moment when one realises that the other guy whom they had at first shrugged off as insignificant is actually far, FAR more dangerous than he at first appeared has a much greater dramatic impact.

...you LEARN to be afraid of him. ...the "Hard Way".

[Lupin]

...nor do I think making decisions about the film based on "what sells" should get as much priority as these comments suggest.

Your logic is reversed there. We weren't saying to make decisions on 'what sells', we were saying to figure out what people liked by figuring out what sells. Box office reciepts are a means to an end, and not an end in itself.

[Vuldari]

...nor do I think making decisions about the film based on "what sells" should get as much priority as these comments suggest.

Your logic is reversed there. We weren't saying to make decisions on 'what sells', we were saying to figure out what people liked by figuring out what sells. Box office reciepts are a means to an end, and not an end in itself.

There is nothing wrong with my logic. The problem is, it doesn't exactly work that way.

People don't allways spend the most money on the things that are the best. Very often, the things that are considered the "best" of their kind, or peoples "favorites" don't get the most hype, or sales. Movies like "The Lord of the Rings", or "Star Wars" (the originals) which are both highly acclaimed AND big sellers are NOT the norm.

Ask any film critic, (who has taken the time to see more than just the "Summer Blockbusters") and the films they name off as the BEST or their FAVORITES will very often be well known (or moderately unknown), but sadly undersold films and NOT the films that made box office records.

Unfortunate as it may be, GOOD movies rarely recieve the success they deserve, while lousy, but flashy and overhyped garbage often makes far more money that the projects deserve...which is a trend which keeps the average quality of modern films deep in the gutter. (Not that most films of the past were all that great either).


Long story short...as much as I hope that the crew behind "Freeborn" will earn great monetary success from the film, as a viewer, I care much MORE about the lasting quality of the film than the # of tickets sold.

As a member of the audience, I DEMAND a good show...an experience that makes the cost of admission more than worthwhile...and if "xXx: III" outsells it on the same opening weekend, I really don't give a *&^$ what kind of garbage the mindless masses choose to blow thier money on, as long at the movie I chose to see is as good, or better than I had hoped.


Again ... in case you didn't catch it ... I don't think sales numbers are a good gauge of what people really like more, or what it popularly considered the best, because film history has prooven that the movie going populace, as a collective whole, is stupid. People flock to see bad movies...nag about how much it sucked and about the annoying trends of films these days...and then flock to see the sucky sequil of the original bad movie (vainly hoping that it might be "better" this time?), guaranteing that the trend will continue because they persist upon feeding the beast.


Give me the foreign film that no-one saw, but wins all the academy awards at the end of the year over the BoxOffice hit, Blockbuster that everyone hated after seeing it ANY DAY.


[Edit:]

I guess what I'm trying to say is...going the expected route may draw in alot of viewers and "satisfy" the majority...but I really, REALLY think the "Freeborn" crew can do Better. ...different...unexpected...but inspiring.

[Lupin]

People don't allways spend the most money on the things that are the best. Very often, the things that are considered the "best" of their kind, or peoples "favorites" don't get the most hype, or sales. Movies like "The Lord of the Rings", or "Star Wars" (the originals) which are both highly acclaimed AND big sellers are NOT the norm.

Yes but my logic is correct more often than not. Films people like get good box office reciepts, and films that people don't like usually don't. This is why Toy Story is one of the top grossing films in history, and Gigli isn't.

Ask any film critic, (who has taken the time to see more than just the "Summer Blockbusters") and the films they name off as the BEST or their FAVORITES will very often be well known (or moderately unknown), but sadly undersold films and NOT the films that made box office records.

The problem with doing that is assuming that the film critic's personal tastes are inline with the those of the general majority. While the opnions of the movies they review might be inline with the general majority, their personal preference might not. Not to mention we're not looking for the opnion of movie critics, we're looking for the opnions of ordinary people. And if you ask them the films that they liked, they will, more often than not rattle off the ones that scored highly at the box office.

Unfortunate as it may be, GOOD movies rarely recieve the success they deserve, while lousy, but flashy and overhyped garbage often makes far more money that the projects deserve...which is a trend which keeps the average quality of modern films deep in the gutter. (Not that most films of the past were all that great either).

If they're really that 'good', then why don't they have that word of mouth 'buzz'? Word of mouth is a very strong advertising agent. Most of the time I won't pay attention to things until people around me start talking about them. A lot of my friends and people I know are like this too.

Again ... in case you didn't catch it ... I don't think sales numbers are a good gauge of what people really like more, or what it popularly considered the best, because film history has prooven that the movie going populace, as a collective whole, is stupid.

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But I'm looking at box office reciepts, and cross referencing them with reviews on IMDB and whatnot, and usually the lower grossing movies also have poor user reviews.

[Vuldari]

Let me put it another way...

...I think the world majoritys taste in movies SUCKS...



...and unfortunately, "word of mouth" often is not enough to sway the opinions of the vast majority who decide if they like something or not before they even see it.

I'm more of a Videogame Nut than a Movie Freak, so the best examples I know well are VG related.

...for example: "Beyond Good and Evil". That game was truely awsome...but it sold poorly. Even though websites and Magazines all gave it RAVE reviews, it was not enough to make millions of people go out and buy it. ...thier loss... Wanna know what outsold it? Just about anything with a movie or pop-culture tie in that got lot's of hype and tv commercials...even though they almost all suck.


All I want is a movie that I can brag about and reccomend to my family and friends...something that feels well thought out and polished...

...to hell with the millions upon millions of people who line up to see films starring "The Rock". ...most people are stupid anyway...

(Actually, Everyone is "Stupid"...myself included. ...Just to varying degrees. But I digress...)


I'm not saying we should have "Wimpy" werewolves. I'm just saying that it would be much more interesting if Cashell was significantly more creative with their werewolf designs than just slapping a tail and more fur on the Van Hellsing werewolves and calling it a day, because they know that would sell.

...and I think this film is the BEST opportunity for the percieved "norm" to be shattered...perhaps by showing both beefy and sleek werewolves together...but NEITHER acting as the audience expects they should.

Big strong characters ARE impressive...but don't look at them universally as Better than everything else...because as Kavik mentioned about the character in SIN CITY...sometimes it just ROCKS to see the little guy rip everyone a new one now and then. ...or the FAT guy...or the UGLY girl...or whatever. "The one with the biggest musles or the most guns allways wins" gets really old. It is much more interesting when there is more uncertainty than that.

At least to me.

More variety...more uncertainty...less conformity...less uniformity.

Having ALL of the characters turn into musclebound brutes just sounds so...predictable to me. It's no fun when you can predict what will happen next 90% of the time. What if a character being bitten would have an entirely unpredictable outcome? What if you could never know just how it would affect someone? ...will they get HUGE?...will they turn into a full wolf or a gestalt or both?...will they be able to change back, or will they become "stuck" in their new form?...will they go crazy?...will they die?...will they be able to controll it?...will it make them thin and sickly and shorten thier lifespan, or hearty and long living?...what if...

...what if...

"...I didn't expect that..." is much more interesting than "...I thought so...".


If Freeborn can capture the imagination of NEW werewolf fans, you can be sure more films will follow...INCLUDING films where the werewolves do nothing but "Kick A**" with their treetrunk biceps, 3-inch claws and towering 9-foot (scare the &*^% out of people just by casting thier shadow on them) bodies.

...but leave that to 20th Century Fox to do, with a SFX budget that would make Bill Gates flinch. I suggest a more distinctive, unexpected and interesting dirrection for this one. I think it would make the most people happy in the end.

[Vuldari]

I really should probobly just stay away from this thread, since I seem to be a one man rower against the flow of a river, and I don't seem to be getting anywhere...but I just can't.

I so badly want this film to work...and I'm convinced that making the werewolves in freeborn look bulgy and action stylized like the look of the werewolves in Van Helsing or Underworld (regardless of how popular that is) would be a big mistake in the end.

There is such a thing as ...well...damnit, I can't think of the word for it, but I know what I mean.

To any film, novel, painting, song...or whatever, there is allways a prevailing mood, style and theme to it.

I'm just trying to defend the "continuity" of the mood and feel of this project. Sometimes the peices just don't seem to fit. ...like when the butt kicking characters suddenly stop to solumnly share the blatantly obvious and "forced" feeling Moral to the story at the end...or when somone starts spouting current Pop-Culture slang at innapropriate times. These things happen with the best of intentions...trying to make portions of the audience happy...but if it is not carfully thought out,, minor bumps in the flow of the story like this can really RUIN the overall feel.

I think that if the Werwolves look Too "Uber" (blatantly superior to all other living creatures in every way), then they just wont fit into the mood and setting of the film. I think they really need to show their frailties as well as their strengths too look sutably dynamic for a Drama...and if they appear to be "INVINCIBLE"...I just don't see how that could possibly feel right...no matter HOW they act.

[Figarou]

If Freeborn can capture the imagination of NEW werewolf fans, you can be sure more films will follow...INCLUDING films where the werewolves do nothing but "Kick A**" with their treetrunk biceps, 3-inch claws and towering 9-foot (scare the &*^% out of people just by casting thier shadow on them) bodies.

...but leave that to 20th Century Fox to do, with a SFX budget that would make Bill Gates flinch. I suggest a more distinctive, unexpected and interesting dirrection for this one. I think it would make the most people happy in the end.

Well, for one thing, Freeborn is not even out and we already have several werewolf films in the making for 2006. Once Freeborn does comes out, some of the non-werewolf fans may say..."Oh no!! Not another werewolf film!"

Is it a good idea to have so many werewolf films in the same year? Its hard to answer that question. Maybe the non-werewolf fans might be excited to see another film with/about werewolves after seeing Underworld Revolution. I'm excited. But werewolf fans are a small number compared to non-werewolf fans. The rest of the non-werewolf fans may wait till its on video. Who knows. Thats if they knew what Freeborn is to begin with.


Also, no matter how PERFECT the werewolf is, it will not generate "NEW" werewolf fans. The non-werewolf fans will simply like Freeborn, or hate it.


Now, what is going to motivate everyone to go see Freeborn? The werewolf itself? Or the story behind it? When people do see Freeborn, are they going to see something never before seen? Or something that has never been done?


The way werewolf "should look" has already been done elsewhere. (comic books, gaming, artwork, ETC.) But not on the big screen. The only werewolf that comes close to being perfect is the Van Helsing werewolf. (Black werewolf) Goldenwolf, and a lot of others out there, loves that werewolf. But a true diehard werewolf fan wants more. A tail for one thing. Control of its own actions. ETC. Thats why we are here. BUT...... are we here to write the story for Freeborn......or give ABrownrigg and company what we want in a werewolf? With so many werewolves in Freeborn, I think we all can be happy with the outcome of each werewolf.


When Freeborn finally comes out, are we going to love that movie because of the werewolf design? Or the story behind it? Having a cool werewolf on the screen with a poor story line doesn't mean it'll be a big seller. A cool story line with a terrible looking werewolf won't cut it with werewolf fans. Am I right?

I know for a fact that you, Vuldari, will point out something that should've been done a different way after you see the film. I may find nothing wrong with that part. In other words, you may like salt on your eggs. It doesn't mean I have to put salt on mine.

[Timber-WoIf]

The only concern i have with overly, brutish werewolves is whether or not they're appropriate for the story. Personally, for what this movie appears to be about, monsterous werewolves may not be the most appropriate.

Personally, i doubt this movie will succeed at all if it trys too hard to please both us and the moviegoing majority. Frankly, we are wierd. Our tastes (as far as werewolves are concerned) are different from the majority of people out there. So the chance of this being any kind of major hit is low.

...meh
nuf said i guess...