Muscles

[Apokryltaros]

All I want for Christmas is a large, aesthetically appealing werewolf, whom if I want to make eye-contact with, I must crane my head up.
And who doesn't have skinny fingers, and does not have an excess of drool.
Is that too much to ask for?

[Timber-WoIf]

yes.

[Apokryltaros]

yes.

If I have to give Freeborn a bad review, I'm going to remember to include you in Mr Brownrigg's verbal crucifiction.

[Vuldari]

I know for a fact that you, Vuldari, will point out something that should've been done a different way after you see the film. I may find nothing wrong with that part. In other words, you may like salt on your eggs. It doesn't mean I have to put salt on mine.

That is true about every movie ever made. Perfection is impossible.


...allthough it really is looking like I have been fooling myself about this whole project all along.

What I have wanted Freeborn to be from the moment I heard about this project has never been what all the rest of you want it to be.


...nor has it ever been what Anthony Brownrigg wanted it to be either. Tony makes horror films. That's what he likes to make...that is what he's made in the past...that's what he's working on now...that's what Freeborn/"Devoured" was originally going to be...(and that's what his father made as well, if I remember correctly). He, as all of you, have a very different perspective and taste on what is enteretaining than I do.

I HATE slasher/horror films. There has never been a film in that genre in the history of filmdom that I have liked.

Even though Freeborn is supposedly not going to be that kind of film, it is being made by (and for) an audience of people who enjoy that kind of thing. Freeborn is, and has allways been catered to a different kind of audience of unique taste. ...an audience that is not me...


I give up.


If I ever say another thing about what I think Freeborn should be like...stop me...


That film never was being made for someone with my taste.


Ignore all of my previous ramblings. I guess I've just been wasting my time.


ABrownrigg...Silver...Tim Albee... I'm sorry for trying to lead a one man revolution against your vision. I'm sure what you have in mind is far closer to what everyone else is clambering for than the oddball idea I have imagined.


It sucks being the tenth person when 9 out of 10 people agree on something, but I guess that's just my fate.


Not that my individual persistance would have changed anything anyway, but go ahead and go with the majority opinion on this one. You'll make alot more people happy that way...which I guess is really what I want too.


I'll pay to watch it with everyone else, and I'm sure I'll find at least something to like about the final film...even if it not what I really wanted. I have faith that, whatever you do, it will at least be worth the cost of admission...(which is an impressive feat, considering that movie tickets can cost as much as $9 each nowadays).


...not that I could stay away anyway. My facination with the creature will allways draw me back.


Just give me an idea of what we ARE going to see here, so I can erase the vision of what was never going to be from my mind and try to get exited about what it IS going to be. It's clear to me now that Freeborn is not going to be what I thought it would be, and I need to drill that into my head.

...that does not mean that I won't like something different though.

As long as the story and charcters are more interesting than "Cursed" or "Van Helsing", (and I know the werewolves will look awsome) I can be sure to have alot to look forward to.

[Figarou]

Its still very early in the Freeborn development stage.

Many things can happen that'll make us very excited about Freeborn.

1st is the werewolf design. Once we see how cool the werewolf is, we are going to see the film no matter what.

Next could be the story line. We already have an idea what Freeborn is about by looking the the teaser trailer. Did we see a werewolf running loose killing everyone in that trailer? No. That already tells us its going to be a different type of werewolf film.


Next could be the actors. Some of us might get extremely excited when we find out who gets what part. One of your favorite actors can land a part in Freeborn.


We are all unique in every perspective. We also have different tastes. So don't feel bad if you like something your way, Vuldari. You are entitled to your opinion. As for me, I'm hoping to see a little bit of comedy in Freeborn. You may not want "comedy."


Just know this. I think ABrownrigg is working as hard as he can to please every single one of us. So don't feel "left out," Vuldari. We are more than a "team." We are "The Pack." A unique group of individuals that knows what we want in a werewolf film!!

[Silverclaw]

Personly, I basicly agree with Vuldari about WWs and muscles-genre-ect I dont want really beefed up uber werewolves. Makes things a lot more uninteresting. Works for pure action films like Underworld, but not a supernatural drama. Different people=different sized werewolves imho.
Also, SCREW what the majority of non-werewolf people would want If they cant see Freeborn for what it is, their loss.

[Shadow Wulf]

Woah, Vuldari...when it comes down to Freeborn ill agree with most of the stuff you said, I always have. Its just that EVERYTIME I mention muscles, you automaticly assumed Freeborn when I was reffering to my taste in werewolf overall. I actually want freeborn werewolfs to be just as you and AB said, non are like van helsing werewolfs, all having a realistic muscle features and very fit, but have different vierity mass, it gives something I have never seen before and can attract new a kinds of audience. Remember what they say about assume, it makes an a** out of U and ME. J/K.

[Vuldari]

...okay...that didn't come out sounding like I had intended.


Let me try again.


In the beginning, when Freeborn was still "Devoured", all I cared about was voicing my enthusiasm for a werewolf in a werewolf movie that actually looked and acted cool. The rest was none of my concern because, "...hey...I'M not making this movie...".

However, when ABrownrigg announced that he and Silver were going to re-imagine the whole project into a drama instead of a slasher, a very stange concept of what I thought an interesting "Werewolf Drama" could be like popped into my head. From that point on, something short circuted in my mind and I convinced myself that Tony and Silver had the same vision I did, and I went on a persistant defensive to make sure everyone else stayed faithful and enthusiastic about that vision and didn't stray so far as to destroy that one too as Devoured had died.

...however...as I read through this thread and pondered just why the popular opinion was straying so far from my own (with a few exeptions) it lead me to re-evaluate the entire situation. What I concluded was: Based on Anthonys background, and current projects, plus the ovewhelming dis-harmony between my expectations and most everyone elses, I really just couldn't see how I ever thought you and Brownrigg were ever imagining the same thing as me to begin with.

I don't think he even likes the kind of film I was imagining...at least not enough to want to make one himself. ...especially when so many of you have, (occasionally quite dramatically, or rudely) made it quite clear that you would either disavow ever knowing the man named Anthony Brownrigg, or threatening to kill or in some other way maim him if he ever even considered doing certain things with the film...things that actually could have fit in quite naturally in MY obscure vision.

(Yes...I actually WOULD enjoy a scene where a werewolf character had an emotional breakdown...followed by a hearfelt conversation with someone about the "problems" with being a werewolf. Real emotions=Real good story to me. I like that...so screw you.)


The key differences would be our expectations for the prevailing mood, style and attitude of the film.

I made a great fuss only a short time ago CLAIMING that having Uber-Strong Werewolves would break the intended theme and mood of the film.

However...it has taken me an entire YEAR to realise that everyone else but me has been desiring a style mood and story built around their favorite kind of Werewolf (the UBER...allways superior to normal humans in every way kind)...where as I, and I alone, have been striving for a werewolf designed around the Story instead. (willingly sacrificing many or most "supercool" qualities and abilities for the good of the story...the mortal element...and the love of the art of storytelling)

So...in everyones theoretical vision of Freeborn but my own (likely including Tony and Silvers as well), the uber-cool, built like a warrior werewolf is actually a Perfect Fit. ...instead, it's the "sissy" human emotional turmoil that I like that would be the mood breaker.


I've been wrong all along. No one else here wants to see an Emotional Drama with Action scenes like I do. ...but rather an Action Drama with emotions like Fear only comming from humans who are unlucky enough to run into to werewolves, and the most dramatic emotional moments from the werewolves being only when one or more of them goes Bloody AWOL.


...because that's what you really want to see right? Werewolves showing off how they are so much cooler and superior to those puny humans. ...none of that sissy emotional stuff. ...because a werewolf actually showing fear in front of a human would be blasphemy. Watching a werewolf freak out and run from a human with a gun or a knife isn't entertaining. ...watching it bite the gun in half and then kill him effortlessly (and bloodily) IS.

...apparently...


I'm just lost and confused. I have almost NO IDEA what Freeborn is really going to be anymore. ...since, apparently, I never really understood to begin with.




Gee...I really have sidetracked this thread quite a bit. Maybe I should bring it back to the subject of musculature now.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I prefer a werewolves strength, abilities and physical build to depend on the person. I like to see a great variety, so If I was going to create a single "Ideal" version of werewolves, those werewolves would not all be the same. Rather, it would be possible and common for werewolves to be skinny and not significantly muscular at all, or be overweight and even obese, as well as being able to bulk up and become like Furry, Lupine Tanks IF the person worked out vigorously and regularly in all forms.


I would be very entertained to watch an UBER werewolf Kick a whole lot of A** and fully appreciate the Iconic presence such a creature represents. (My folder of "Favorite" werewolf images is FULL of this type of werewolf, after all.)


However, being a very slender man myself, and holding far greater respect and admiration for more leanly built and agile bodies than for "Muscle Heads" (which I feel most of which are as dumb as they look), I am far more facinated with and interested in creatures and characters that fit more within That category than the latter.


I never, EVER would want to be big and bulgy like that...so I find it extremely difficult, if not impossible to "ADMIRE" werewolves of that shape and size. Watching somone elses characters who are like that go about and whoop A** is thrilling and entertaining every now and again, but eventually the popular mythology of the creature begs me to ask the question: "What if I was a Werewolf?"

If I was to become one, I really, really, Really would hope that it was possible to NOT have to look all big and beefy like that...because I HATE that. I gladly would sacrifice a large chunk of "Brute Strength" to get the super-human agility, senses, durability, instincts (and look aesthetically gorgeous to boot) and stay small and lightfooted at the same time.

So... I find the idea that ALL Werewolves should be significantly Large and Muscular both insulting and dissapointing...

...since that would give me a reason NOT to want to be a Werewolf.
(And I LIKE imagining being a werewolf.)



[Edit:] Sorry for the Exaustingly long posts. I'll try to keep my messages a little more managable from now on.

[Figarou]

So... I find the idea that ALL Werewolves should be significantly Large and Muscular both insulting and dissapointing...

Really?

Look.... I'm big person in real life. If we both became werewolves, I could end up a lot bigger than you. Are you going to look at me and say I'm repulsive, insulting and dissapointing?

As Yoda would say... "Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me
by my size, do you?"



We all know there is going to be a lot of werewolves in Freeborn. I know not ALL of them will be the same because it has already been mentioned.

Humans comes in many shapes, sizes, and colors. The same goes for werewolves.

This is how I see it........

A thin man= thin werewolf.

Tall man=tall werewolf.

muscular man =muscular werewolf

and so on.

[Shadow Wulf]

Again, I stand behind your vision in Freeborn but Im just commenting on my vison, not in the movie. I mean I just like my werewolf to be really fit overall, and some really muscular, thats just the way I like it, but in any other kind of werewolf I am welcome with including your idea. And no I dont want freeborn werewolves to all be muscular.

[Apokryltaros]

On the one hand, yes, a well-planned drama concerning werewolves and their struggle to survive from day to day.
On the other hand, the cinematic genre of werewolves requires at least some razzle-dazzle eye candy in order to pique people's fancy. Touting this as the "world's greatest werewolf movie" isn't enough if you're going to leave out things that the majority of people want to see in a werewolf movie.
Chances are greater that one is going to make a grandiose blunder, much like the way Cal State Davis has done, if one remains slavishly and fanatically loyal to the ideals of the project, to the point of vociferously rejecting all other opinions until the project is over...
Like the infamous tomatos that have a shelf life of years, and that taste like moist cardboard, or the bald chickens that save you money in plucking, but cost thousands to keep warm...

Furthermore, to be blunt, all of this scolding, threatening, ridiculing and shaming people for liking an ideal different than your own ideal, even if your ideal is faithful to the core of the project, is going to accomplish crap.
Yes, I'm keenly aware of the fact that the idea of a werewolf becoming larger upon assuming the gestalt form is unrealistic. But the thing is, I don't care donkey bacula that it's unrealistic, I just think that the idea of the werebeast bursting out of his or her clothing to be pleasantly dramatic, and that I find large(r) predatory animals to be far more threatening than small(er) predatory mammals, and the scolding with physics wrangling and threats of violence is not going to change my mind about it.

[Vuldari]

So... I find the idea that ALL Werewolves should be significantly Large and Muscular both insulting and dissapointing...

Really?

Look.... I'm big person in real life. If we both became werewolves, I could end up a lot bigger than you. Are you going to look at me and say I'm repulsive, insulting and dissapointing?

No no no...you misunderstand.

I say "insulting" because that suggests that, by wishing and prefering MYSELF and my own favorite characters to be lean, that I and my characters are somehow inherantly Inferior to supposedly "Normal" werewolves, and I say "Dissapointing" because it blatantly Forbids the very possibility that, If I were to become a werewolf, I could become the way I think I would ideally be.

...where you slipped the word "repulsive" in there from, I can only guess. I despise the look of "Lumpy" muscled creatures, not generally Large or well defined ones. (I respect the Bear, and Admire the Cougar...but I BEG Mr. Universe to put some clothes on, becasue his freakishly deformed body makes me feel ill.)

On the one hand, yes, a well-planned drama concerning werewolves and their struggle to survive from day to day.
On the other hand, the cinematic genre of werewolves requires at least some razzle-dazzle eye candy in order to pique people's fancy. Touting this as the "world's greatest werewolf movie" isn't enough if you're going to leave out things that the majority of people want to see in a werewolf movie.

I understand and Agree.

Chances are greater that one is going to make a grandiose blunder, much like the way Cal State Davis has done, if one remains slavishly and fanatically loyal to the ideals of the project, to the point of vociferously rejecting all other opinions until the project is over...
Like the infamous tomatos that have a shelf life of years, and that taste like moist cardboard, or the bald chickens that save you money in plucking, but cost thousands to keep warm...

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about, but there is probobly a really good point in here...I just don't quite understand what it is.

Furthermore, to be blunt, all of this scolding, threatening, ridiculing and shaming people for liking an ideal different than your own ideal, even if your ideal is faithful to the core of the project, is going to accomplish crap.
Yes, I'm keenly aware of the fact that the idea of a werewolf becoming larger upon assuming the gestalt form is unrealistic. But the thing is, I don't care donkey bacula that it's unrealistic, I just think that the idea of the werebeast bursting out of his or her clothing to be pleasantly dramatic, and that I find large(r) predatory animals to be far more threatening than small(er) predatory mammals, and the scolding with physics wrangling and threats of violence is not going to change my mind about it.

My biggest bluder is that the theoretical idea I was so obsessively trying to stay faithful to Never Was the actual core intention of the Freeborn project. ...it was just a false ideal that made sense to me at the time, but whas grossly miscalculated.

It reminds me of a joke that I once heard:

A woman picks up her phone to call her husband right away after seeing a disturbing live news report on TV. When the man picks up, she franticly cautions him to be extra careful on his way home from work, because there is a madman driving full speed aginst traffic on the freeway, in the oncomming lane. The husband responds on his cell phone from his car "I know honey...but it's not just one...there are THOUSANDS of them!..."

I am that clueless driver.

[Set]

Do you know what I see here? All of us to some degree want a werewolf that resembles ourselves. It could be physical appearance, minset, attitude, or ideal...it doesn't matter, because each of us wants a werewolf reflection.

We're all very different, so our ideas clash horribly as a result. While most seem to regard themselves (and thus their werewolf reflections or ideals) as uber-badasses (or at least snarly things who could whup the Govenator) there are a few of us who aren't that way. The majority, at least here, prefers something more along the lines of what they wish they were. An invincible, big, imtimidating, wolfish beast.

At this point it doesn't seem to be so much about the werewolves anymore as it is about everyone's egos. "The majority/Anthony agrees with me, IN YOUR FACE, LOSERS!"

The bickering is kind of pointless. None of us will give in to the opinions of another, no matter how good their logic and argument is. It's all just because everyone is a sore loser who wants nothing more than to win.

All this yappin' about how the movie was/is going to be is also rather pointless. We all were asked for input, so we gave it. There's nothing more we can do. None of us will end up making the decisions. Stating what we like and why is just about the extent of our influence. And we've done that. All this "I like such and such and this is proof that it would happen" crap is merely about converting someone to your personal ideals. It's about making yourselves feel superior to everyone else.

This stopped being about the werewolves a long time ago.

[Vuldari]

Very true and insigtful Reilune.


All of our opinions about the werewolf ideal really are based off of our own individual perceptions of what WE wish we could be.

When you put it in that light, I realise that I too desire the werewolf to be the "Ultimate" version of what I would want to be. My werewolf is "Uber" too...in my own eyes. The difference is that kicking everyone elses A** is not high on my list of priorities. For me, it's all about the enhanced perspective...the capacity to see, hear, smell, taste and interact with the world in ways that no ordinary human can. ...a DUAL perspective on the world... (Wolf and Man)

...for others, it may be about bringing brutal vigilante justice to eveyone they don't like...or just being invicible so they would never have to be afraid of being hurt ever again.

You're right Reilune. We all seem to be basing our opinions on our own inner reflections...who and what we wish we saw in the mirror...be that someone stronger...smarter...prettier...more significant...or whatever we desire.

...and since our inner selves don't all reflect the same, our preferences on a physical "ideal" will never match up.



Which is why Anthony's idea is so brilliant. Let it be that inner reflection that determines what form a Werewolves body will take when transformed. ...and if 90% of people hunger for power, then most probobly would reflect a powerful looking Lycanthropic alter-ego. ...where as if someone like me was bitten, the result would be significantly different.

Everyone wins. If power is what matters to you most, then a Quentin/ Van Helsing look-alike you will become. If you are a gentle, spiritual type like me, you'd come out much sleeker and less conpicuous, or maybe even a near quadraped Full Wolf doppelganger. And if you hated wolves (or love wolves, but just hate "Furries")...maybe the result would be more like Underworld or even Lon Cheney's werewolf.

...Or something like that.

[Shadow Wulf]

I actually noticed that for quite sometime cause I always wish to be more powerful than a regular human, I always dreamed of being a giant beast thats totaly kicks a** and I still dream about it almost everynight, but thanks to your comment Ruline, you made me understand why I was fighting about myself likeing muscular werewolves, its what I want to be.

I have to hand it to you Reuline, you are a VERY perspective person, the most perspective person in this pack, and just for that I am gonna revive a topic and give you an award.

[Vuldari]

I have to hand it to you Reuline, you are a VERY perspective person, the most perspective person in this pack...

I don't know if I would go so far as to say that. ...I mean...we all have our moments. (Scott Gardener has certainly had his moments).

But Kudos to you anyway Reilune.

[Shadow Wulf]

At this point it doesn't seem to be so much about the werewolves anymore as it is about everyone's egos. "The majority/Anthony agrees with me, IN YOUR FACE, LOSERS!"

ofcourse Im not shure what she meant about this.

[Vuldari]

At this point it doesn't seem to be so much about the werewolves anymore as it is about everyone's egos. "The majority/Anthony agrees with me, IN YOUR FACE, LOSERS!"

ofcourse Im not shure what she meant about this.

I think she was suggesting that the competing sides of this debate have both been maintaining that attitude against each other. (or maybe she's just saying that I have been saying that. Either way...it is at least partially true.)

[Shadow Wulf]

True, True

*song starts playing in the background* "Why can't we be friends?, Why can't we be friends?, Why cant we be friends?..."

Im just joking.

[Figarou]

So... I find the idea that ALL Werewolves should be significantly Large and Muscular both insulting and dissapointing...

Really?

Look.... I'm big person in real life. If we both became werewolves, I could end up a lot bigger than you. Are you going to look at me and say I'm repulsive, insulting and dissapointing?

No no no...you misunderstand.

I say "insulting" because that suggests that, by wishing and prefering MYSELF and my own favorite characters to be lean, that I and my characters are somehow inherantly Inferior to supposedly "Normal" werewolves, and I say "Dissapointing" because it blatantly Forbids the very possibility that, If I were to become a werewolf, I could become the way I think I would ideally be.

...where you slipped the word "repulsive" in there from, I can only guess. I despise the look of "Lumpy" muscled creatures, not generally Large or well defined ones. (I respect the Bear, and Admire the Cougar...but I BEG Mr. Universe to put some clothes on, becasue his freakishly deformed body makes me feel ill.)

Ok...I get it now. Sorry.

[Scott Gardener]

Vuldari; you're not entirely alone in wanting to see a more human than superhuman werewolf. Most of my interest in werewolf interpretation involve focusing less on the super powers and more on lupine aspects. I've acknowledged enough perks, like slow regeneration or enhanced hearing and smell, that would be a plausible consequence of lycanthropy. But, the over-the-top, eight foot tall werewolf with a physique that would put Schwarzenegger at his prime to shame is just not as interesting to me. The werewolves in my fantasies have to deal with realistic issues, like the conflicts of living in two worlds, or the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of mass.

I prefer my werewolves elegant and streamlined. Wolves are actually smaller than humans, so I see no reason to bulk up my lycanthropes into body builders. If anything, they'd lose weight.

[Timber-WoIf]

Aff to Gardener

[Set]

I think she was suggesting that the competing sides of this debate have both been maintaining that attitude against each other. (or maybe she's just saying that I have been saying that. Either way...it is at least partially true.)

That's exactly what I meant. It wasn't directed at anyone specifically, because we've all been guilty of it at some point. Me included.

[Scott Gardener]

Aff? Adult Film Festival?

[Short Tail]

affirmative. I think...