Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Zurrealizm »

Probably an odd question, but I noticed that some vampire films tend to portray them in an upper-class social environment, or at least very sophisticated in their speech, behaviour, and clothing tastes.

Perhaps the werewolves could go into this new direction, or is it a bit too abstract?
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Tock »

Probably, But I think it depends more on your take on werewolves. For example, most people portray werewolves as more "get back to nature" types, with savagery and animal instincts. However, if you want to make that more of an undertone, I don't see why not.
Although, they might have a problem with expensive clothes while shifting...
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Wingman »

This is just my opinion, but many of the themes of vampire upper society can be very easily carried over to werewolf upper society, and were themselves carried over from human upper society. The common themes being some sort of superiority to the unwashed masses, leeching off the efforts of others, and preying upon social lessers.

As for why vampires have drifted upwards in society, my opinion is that it's a parallel to human upper society, especially from the last century. Whereas the common folk would be working in the sun, the privileged few would be pale creatures partying well into the night, feeding off the work of those below them.

Werewolves could just as easily be turned in the same direction, since the vast majority of things a vampire does, a werewolf could do as well. By that I mean long outliving mortals, surviving normally fatal wounds, having keener senses, having enhanced physical abilities, and being able to turn into an animal. So you could just as easily have an upper class composed of werewolves that rather than taxing the populace, or draining their blood, instead congregates for annual hunts to thin the cattle, and live in comfort off the efforts of their underlings.

Really, all the same things we've been doing to eachother for centuries already.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Berserker »

Vampires are portrayed as aristocratic because they're immortal. That's always been the key point: if you have centuries to accumulate wealth, knowledge, and power, you're going to be in the upper echelons of society.

A werewolf is not usually immortal. Also, werewolves have a secret that usually prevents them from mingling too much with human society. They would have a much harder time becoming aristocrats.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by alphanubilus »

I will answer that question once, "Hour of Darkness" is finally released. :D Hopefully sooner than later. :D :) :lol: :o
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Aki »

Berserker wrote: A werewolf is not usually immortal. Also, werewolves have a secret that usually prevents them from mingling too much with human society. They would have a much harder time becoming aristocrats.
Considering that nobility tends to dabble in all sorts of affairs, secrets and whatnot, I hardly see how this would impede a werewolf aristocrat - it'd just be another secret to guard.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Terastas »

Tock wrote:Although, they might have a problem with expensive clothes while shifting...
That's a good illustration of what I think would hinder a werewolf's ability to act as an aristocrat. Fancy clothes and expensive finery aren't exactly practical if you have a tendency to mutate into a wolf hybrid and go bucknutty every now and then. Seclusion out in the boonies would suit them a lot better.

Berserker hit half of the nail on the head for me as to why vampires would predominantly be upper-class: because they're immortal. The other side of it, however, would be that even if a vampire did not begin as an aristocrat, he could easily become one by recruiting among aristocrats.

In Inhuman, this is very much how the American vampires initially became wealthy: by selling their vampirism to old rich people who were running out of ways to continue cheating death.

Another thing to consider is that vampires have unusual requirements that cannot easily be met or justified by the average man, namely the need of a steady supply of blood and of a safe place to sleep during daylight. The vampires of Inhuman -- even the decent, democratic-minded ones -- have established an economic hierarchy where young or lower-class vampires are completely dependent upon the elder bankers and investors. The vampire investors have invested heavily, not in dependable business ventures, but in businesses that can support or employ vampires. A vampire may build or buy a movie theater, for example, and then employ his entire coven as ushers, projectionists, janitors -- whatever jobs they can take without setting foot anywhere near a window. The members of his coven in exchange pay as much as 50% of their wages back to him for their necessary shelter and sustenance.

The next business said vamp. investor may choose to purchase may be a pig farm or a butchery, from which he could purchase animal blood at a bargain (especially compared to what he would have had to pay to have a blood drive). So even if both businesses would have taken a loss in a normal market, the vampire could make a profit off of his coven.

So on one hand, we have vampires, who can pass for human 99% of the time (and as goths/emos the remaining 1%) but have unconventional requirements for survival that encourage hierarchical behavior. On the other hand are the werewolves, who have no requirements for survival beyond those of normal humans, but who are unmistakably inhuman at certain moments. Werewolves wouldn't have (at least as strict of) a hierarchical society and could (in theory) survive alone without depending on other werewolves or humans. The more ideal werewolf survival strategy, therefore, would be to keep to themselves and keep their numbers low. Hence the "natural" approach.

The most I could envision a werewolf becoming would be the self-made millionaire that all the aristocrats regard as an "uncouth barbarian" (or some other bullshyznidum like that). If the vampires are all aristocrats wearing stuffed shirts or massive hats, the werewolf would be computer wizard with the plaid suit and the clip-on tie or the overweight Texan wearing a white suit and cowboy hat. You know, the kind of millionaire that'll get fed up with all the high society crap and will be checking their stocks on the limo ride home.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by JoshuaMadoc »

Terastas wrote:The most I could envision a werewolf becoming would be the self-made millionaire that all the aristocrats regard as an "uncouth barbarian" (or some other bullshyznidum like that). If the vampires are all aristocrats wearing stuffed shirts or massive hats, the werewolf would be computer wizard with the plaid suit and the clip-on tie or the overweight Texan wearing a white suit and cowboy hat. You know, the kind of millionaire that'll get fed up with all the high society crap and will be checking their stocks on the limo ride home.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Wingman »

Stark actually works rather well as a werewolf parallel, as he has to sneak off to do his stuff, whereas everyone else can do theirs with only a minor bit of obfuscation. Alter some descriptions, and it could easily be him saying "I am Wolf Man." in front of a room full of reporters.
For a vampire aristocrat to keep his secret, he just needs to party all night and no one will think twice if he's sleeping all day. For a werewolf aristocrat to keep his secret, he might need to be completely absent all night while he's off in the woods chasing deer. It's easier to accept someone's quirks if there's an easy explanation. "Oh, he's pale and gaunt, well it's not surprising. I saw him hanging out with some suspicious types, no telling what he's been stuffing up his nose." It's a little harder to explain a complete absence, especially if your werewolves are hardier than normal people. A bit hard to believe chronic illness when every time you see them they look fit as a fiddle and ready to eat an ox.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Terastas »

vrikasatma wrote:Anyway, werewolves generally aren't immortal, but they're vital and will more than likely outlive the (probably inbred) nobles, so let's further assume that the inbred nobleman dies without issue. Noble's lands, holdings and household passes to — the Captain of the Guard, who did so well and I'd trust no other to protect my legacy.
Assuming some kingship or seventh cousin six times removed didn't try to make a noble claim to the land, yes, but the best case scenario would still be the equivalent of the modern-day scenario I described above: they'd regard the captain of the guard-turned-noble as an uncouth barbarian interloper and refuse to do business with him only if they weren't scheming against him.

Also, Tony Stark (or if you're a DC guy, Bruce Wayne) only works as a parallel if we're talking about werewolves who have 100% control over their ability to shape shift. Iron Man and Batman are invented alter egos whom they become whenever they put on a costume. A werewolf, on the other hand, can't dump his lycanthropy off in the trash should he decide he's had enough of it; he's a werewolf 24/7, no exceptions.

A better model for the werewolf millionaire would be the kind that focuses less on profits and more on continuity. Best case example of a millionaire that could live as a werewolf that I know of would be Peter Tedeschi, owner of the Tedeschi Food Shops. The long story made short is that one of the larger chain stores (supposedly) payed him a huge sum of money to close all of his supermarkets and stay out of the supermarket industry for life. Which he did, but then used the money they payed him to open convenience stores. Legend has it that the ship runs so smoothly that Pete now only has to show up for work once a week to collect his paycheck.

If a werewolf could keep his lycanthropy under control long enough for him to put together that kind of business arrangement, he could live as a werewolf in the upper class. He would have to be modest (at least compared to Stark or Wayne) and low-key though; somebody that can make a lot of money without the hassles of corporate and/or shareholder meetings.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by geekboy1500 »

The secrets "ordinary" people keep every day astound me, I wouldn't think a werewolf (at least in my sense of the term) would have any more difficulty.

I would just hope that a modern "in hiding" werewolf wouldn't go all Eliot Spitzer if he/she were found out. In my mind secrets should be kept, or at the very least revealed with some dignity.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Grey »

I would Assume *yes I know wolves never assume* there would be an Alpha Pack somewhere.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Aki »

Wingman wrote:Stark actually works rather well as a werewolf parallel, as he has to sneak off to do his stuff, whereas everyone else can do theirs with only a minor bit of obfuscation. Alter some descriptions, and it could easily be him saying "I am Wolf Man." in front of a room full of reporters.
There is actually a comic book hero similar to Stark called Wolf-Man. The Astounding Wolf Man series from Image Comics, IIRC.

It's a good read.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Wingman »

Aki wrote:
Wingman wrote:Stark actually works rather well as a werewolf parallel, as he has to sneak off to do his stuff, whereas everyone else can do theirs with only a minor bit of obfuscation. Alter some descriptions, and it could easily be him saying "I am Wolf Man." in front of a room full of reporters.
There is actually a comic book hero similar to Stark called Wolf-Man. The Astounding Wolf Man series from Image Comics, IIRC.

It's a good read.
I know, I've read a bit of it. That's why I tried to reference it. Plus it had better symmetry than saying "I am the Werewolf."
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by RedEye »

If by sophistication you mean intelligent and capable of blending in with smoothskin society; then yes indeed. The werewolf is a creature who combines two social and intelligent lifeforms into one, so most likely there is a lot of sophistication present*.
I have always posited that Werewolves would be as smart as their Smoothskin half since that's the shape that goes to school and learns ones letters and numbers. I also present young werewolves as being indistinguishable from ordainary children; there is simply no biological advantage to being able to shift at five years of age, and tucking wulf-awakening in with puberty seems to be the easiest way to get the job done.
Yeah; Easiest. Mother Nature is as lazy as she can be, only she calls it bio-efficiency.
Given the above, a sophisticated Werewolf makes sense, and leads to some interesting and potentially humerous situations...
Like werewolf cowboys...and hunting guides...and maybe even forest rangers... There would be a lot of work tailor-made for a sophisticated werewolf. :wink:

*Once the peasants stop chasing them...
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Scott Gardener »

The only reason they're not portrayed that way is popular culture assumptions. There's no reason vampires can't scrounge in the dirt, romp in the sewers, or at least struggle to feed a family on minimum wage. Likewise, there's no reason that werewolves can't organize massive networks that control governments and corporations in a New World Order conspiracy to rule the world, moving billions of dollars across bank accounts around the world.
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Terastas »

Scott Gardener wrote:The only reason they're not portrayed that way is popular culture assumptions. There's no reason vampires can't scrounge in the dirt, romp in the sewers, or at least struggle to feed a family on minimum wage.
No, there wouldn't be anything wrong with it. Apart from the resulting fridge logic when the audience asks why this poor lower-class vampire doesn't become rich by trying any of the above-mentioned practices. Like I said above, the vampires I've been writing about started poor, but they were able to rectify that pretty quickly by recruiting wealthy death-cheaters into their ranks.

The problem with vampires is (hate to repeat myself, but), as I said above, they have unusual requirements: blood sustenance etc., that you just can't find anywhere by any safe and conventional means. Said poor vampire would either need to ally with wealthy soon-to-be vampires to make a living arrangement, or continue to take nightly exposure risks every time he has to go hunting again.

Not to imply that there isn't room for a vampire to be poor in the Inhuman setting. But they are poor within the hierarchical vampire community. A "poor" vampire would be one that is dependent on the upper-class. One that is all alone and intends to stay that way wouldn't last long, nor would he potentially amount to much more than anything other than the villain in a B-horror movie.

A werewolf, on the other hand, doesn't have unusual requirements. All they need is a place to keep themselves out of sight every time they have a "bad night," so if a werewolf was poor and alone, he could theoretically remain that way.

I know stereotypes are frowned upon, but they don't need to be messed with if they make sense.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Chris »

Terastas wrote:No, there wouldn't be anything wrong with it. Apart from the resulting fridge logic when the audience asks why this poor lower-class vampire doesn't become rich by trying any of the above-mentioned practices.
Depends on how they're portrayed. The suave, in-control, group-oriented vampire surely could do those things. But if they're portrayed as fiercely competitive against all/most other vampires, ones who would rather kill than turn people, or just generally act more "feral"... they simply wouldn't have the means to move up social circles. If done properly, Fridge Logic shouldn't hit "Why didn't they do X?" because the story should be clear that "Their nature makes them unable to do X."
I know stereotypes are frowned upon, but they don't need to be messed with if they make sense.
While there's certainly nothing wrong with the established werewolf/vampire stereotypes, other types can still be considered. Just because the stereotypes are entertaining, doesn't mean others can't be equally entertaining. I like horror/gorefest werewolves, but I also like the "nature protector" angle too, as well as quite a few things in-between.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Terastas »

Chris wrote:Depends on how they're portrayed. The suave, in-control, group-oriented vampire surely could do those things. But if they're portrayed as fiercely competitive against all/most other vampires, ones who would rather kill than turn people, or just generally act more "feral"... they simply wouldn't have the means to move up social circles. If done properly, Fridge Logic shouldn't hit "Why didn't they do X?" because the story should be clear that "Their nature makes them unable to do X."
Well then you'd be back into that B-horror range I mentioned earlier. If you intend to fight the stereotype by throwing in a "well that's just how its done, don't question it" explanation, it won't hold for much longer than it takes a young detective / Matt Damon wannabe to shoot the vampire.
Just because the stereotypes are entertaining, doesn't mean others can't be equally entertaining.
Not because they're entertaining, but rather because they make sense. I don't think it should matter if the concept being used is entertaining or not -- it should be secondary to the actual plot.

One of the directors of the first Shrek movie once pointed out that the sunflowers in the background of a scene were swaying in the breeze and pointed out that their animators go to those lengths because the audience won't notice the work, but will notice the lack thereof. I think the framework of the vampire / werewolf concept should work just as well: If it's well conceived and makes sense, the audience will accept it and instead focus themselves entirely on the plot. If the conception is lazy, rushed or relies too heavily on fantastic science and belief suspension, however, the resulting plot holes and fridge logic will interfere with the plot.

There are people out there who expect that the concept can be entertaining enough to carry the movie by itself. They're called B-horror directors. The concept is the foundation of the plot -- not the full plot itself. It should be less a question of whether it's entertaining and more a question of whether it makes sense.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Chris »

Terastas wrote:If you intend to fight the stereotype by throwing in a "well that's just how its done, don't question it" explanation, it won't hold for much longer than it takes a young detective / Matt Damon wannabe to shoot the vampire.
I wasn't implying a hand-waving, "just because" explanation. There are ways to get across to an audience about how things are supposed to work in your world, without resorting to "that's just how it's done" or sticking with stereotypes. Granted, it may be difficult in your standard-length movie while also having a good, filling plot, but that's just the way of that medium.

Going back on the previous vampire example, there's no reason a vampire can't "scrounge in the dirt, romp in the sewers, or at least struggle to feed a family on minimum wage". You may need an explanation to give to your audience about why they are unable to move up the social chain, but there's no reason a good writer can't come up with good reasons. Such as, again, being unable to cooperate with other vampires by nature, not being able to remain in control of their need/want for blood, losing some of their cognitive abilities, etc. Given a vampire that needs to remain out of sunlight (even indirect), has a very difficult time keeping themselves from attacking for blood when they need it, and whose nature tends to result in killing instead of turning.. I'd have many more questions if they were still able to get in a position of class and wealth, as opposed to dwelling in sewers and staying out of society.
Just because the stereotypes are entertaining, doesn't mean others can't be equally entertaining.
Not because they're entertaining, but rather because they make sense. I don't think it should matter if the concept being used is entertaining or not -- it should be secondary to the actual plot.
I suppose I should've said "stories that use those stereotypes". A story with your stereotypical horror-gorefest werewolf can be just as entertaining as a story with a protector-of-nature werewolf, or a story with another kind of werewolf... and still avoid Fridge Logic if it's written well.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Terastas »

Chris wrote:Given a vampire that needs to remain out of sunlight (even indirect), has a very difficult time keeping themselves from attacking for blood when they need it, and whose nature tends to result in killing instead of turning.. I'd have many more questions if they were still able to get in a position of class and wealth, as opposed to dwelling in sewers and staying out of society.
You'd also have to question how it is that a vampire was able to dwell in the sewers without being seen or having enough bodies / missing persons pile up to get the FBI on his case.

That's not to say that it can't be done. Only that it couldn't be sustained for very long before fridge logic or a retreat back to the stereotype is required.

The closest thing to a poor vampire I am aware of was Mitchell from Being Human, who chose to live humbly even though he was constantly given the option of siding with other vampires who were. . . Well, not really aristocrats, but certainly a lot closer to it than Mitchell was. So even though they had a poor vampire, they still had to include other vampires that fit the stereotype in order to keep Mitchell's situation more grounded and easier understood -- yeah, he thought about infecting rich people to get them indebted to him, but he doesn't out of disgust for the other vampires who are dealing as such.
I suppose I should've said "stories that use those stereotypes". A story with your stereotypical horror-gorefest werewolf can be just as entertaining as a story with a protector-of-nature werewolf, or a story with another kind of werewolf... and still avoid Fridge Logic if it's written well.
Okay, first of all (as I'm sure Kitesu will testify), the "protector of nature" werewolf is a cliche.

Second: Major emphasis on those last four words. Sure, a talented writer could, with the right amount of thought and planning, subvert the stereotype. . . If he chose to.

The problem with a deliberate stereotype subversion is that it all too often reads as if that was the sole intent of the writer. The plot should have to conform to solid framework, not the other way around. Effectively, by beginning with the intent to subvert the cliche, the author begins by forming the plot, which his subsequent framework will be made to conform to at a later time.

The more an author deviates from the stereotype / norm, the more he has to try and explain why these things are different, and the more he has to explain something, the less time he has to devote to the plot.

My point being that just because an author could in theory subvert the cliche, that doesn't mean he should feel like he has to. Especially not when he could just as easily stick with the familiar, more "realistic" model and put the majority of his effort into creating detailed, compelling plots and characters instead.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Chris »

Terastas wrote:You'd also have to question how it is that a vampire was able to dwell in the sewers without being seen or having enough bodies / missing persons pile up to get the FBI on his case.
Yeah, that tends to be a problem with any supernatural critter that can't fully hide themselves... the longer they're around, the more likely that something should happen that could expose them. That they aren't would just raise questions (it's why I tend to have a problem with urban fantasy stories that have these things roaming around and are set in a world that's supposed to resemble ours), unless a good explanation is provided.
Okay, first of all (as I'm sure Kitesu will testify), the "protector of nature" werewolf is a cliche.
Not necessarily for films, but true enough elsewhere, I suppose. My point remains, though, that it can still be entertaining whether they follow stereotypes or not.
Second: Major emphasis on those last four words. Sure, a talented writer could, with the right amount of thought and planning, subvert the stereotype. . . If he chose to.
But that's the thing. A good writer that chooses to not follow stereotypes (in whole or in part), by definition, would put forth an appropriate amount of thought and planning. If they don't, then they're not being very good, are they? I mean, it's one thing to make mistakes (we're flawed, it's inevitable), but to be delinquent in setting up your own story, and not expect serious flaws, isn't the mark of a "good" writer.
The problem with a deliberate stereotype subversion is that it all too often reads as if that was the sole intent of the writer. The plot should have to conform to solid framework, not the other way around. Effectively, by beginning with the intent to subvert the cliche, the author begins by forming the plot, which his subsequent framework will be made to conform to at a later time.
I dunno. Certainly a story that reads like 'look at me, I'm being different!' isn't likely to be that enjoyable, but how the plot and concept come about shouldn't adhere to strict rules, I don't think. It is a creative process, after all, and as long as the end result is good, it doesn't really matter how or why it was made.

Case in point, there was a comparitively popular (non-werewolf) novel that came out recently, by a decent writer, well known in certain circles. One of the things he would mention when people asked was how he came up with the idea for the story. He said, one day he was in the shower, and all of a sudden he got in his head what would end up being the final scene of the first segment of the book, which encompassed a couple important plot points. Everything else came from that, or was built around it. He was happy with the result, the book sold well, and even won awards from groups that weren't its target audience (and ones that were). A sequel is being made, too.

Sometimes I hear of people who say they constantly have little stories or scenes pop into their head (that actually happens to me, on occassion), and they try to make a proper story out of it. Conversely, I hear of people who say that they have a good set of characters and a good setting.. but don't have anything for them to do. From my perspective, it seems what matters more is that the plot and framework are done well and fit together, not what came first.
The more an author deviates from the stereotype / norm, the more he has to try and explain why these things are different, and the more he has to explain something, the less time he has to devote to the plot.
That is true, and can be a problem depending on its medium.. a movie or short story, for example, would be more pressed for time than a novel or a full season TV show. Sometimes, certain ideas are best left on the shelf until they can be presented in the right avenue.
My point being that just because an author could in theory subvert the cliche, that doesn't mean he should feel like he has to. Especially not when he could just as easily stick with the familiar, more "realistic" model and put the majority of his effort into creating detailed, compelling plots and characters instead.
One of my pet peeves is when I hear of people that do something they creatively don't want to do. Working against your own creativity is rarely a good idea, and if someone wants to make a story that follows standard tropes and stereotypes, then more power to 'em. Just like if they want to make something that doesn't.
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Terastas
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Terastas »

Chris wrote:Case in point, there was a comparitively popular (non-werewolf) novel that came out recently, by a decent writer, well known in certain circles. One of the things he would mention when people asked was how he came up with the idea for the story. He said, one day he was in the shower, and all of a sudden he got in his head what would end up being the final scene of the first segment of the book, which encompassed a couple important plot points. Everything else came from that, or was built around it. He was happy with the result, the book sold well, and even won awards from groups that weren't its target audience (and ones that were). A sequel is being made, too.
I don't mean to get this discussion too far off topic, but I'm going to have a hard time perceiving that as being a good book since you just described something eerily similar to the way Twilight was conceived. Stephanie Meyers had no framework when she originally set out to write: all she knew that she wanted was a romantic story between a tween version of herself and a guy that sparkles.

And it's painfully obvious that Meyers developed the plot before the framework too. Everything she wrote about vampires / werewolves served no purpose except to justify the scenario as the author desires. Characters contradict themselves, generic villains with playground superpowers spring out of the woodwork, and what few plot elements do exist are resolved via deus ex machinas or with the narrator turning a blind eye and neglecting to ask what happened altogether afterward, and all because Meyer demanded her framework permit her desired plot instead of her characters being required to adhere to reality. When it comes to writing plot before framework, Twilight is the ultimate victim of Murphy's Law.

Ideas can begin out of a scene or a plot element, but even if that's where it all began, it should still be flexible compared to the framework. A lot of my writing began as just a string of ideas for scenes, but because the framework takes priority, some of them had to be altered while others had to be dropped altogether. I had one scene, for example, where a character asks if there are also vampires out there, to which the werewolf responds: "If there are, they're doing a much better job than we are," referring to the job they have been doing remaining anonymous. The more framework I wrote, however, the less I could avoid vampires and werewolves already being aware of each other, so that line (which I still think is pretty cool) is gone for good.

The entire framework of the story was not worth compromising just for the sake of preserving one decent line. Or a decent scene, or a series of decent scenes. I've had to scrap quite a few, but I've since come up with other good ones that don't require me to contradict the framework to allow.
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Re: Could a werewolf family be sophisticated?

Post by Chris »

Terastas wrote:I don't mean to get this discussion too far off topic, but I'm going to have a hard time perceiving that as being a good book since you just described something eerily similar to the way Twilight was conceived. Stephanie Meyers had no framework when she originally set out to write: all she knew that she wanted was a romantic story between a tween version of herself and a guy that sparkles.
Not sure too many people would say that Meyers is that good of a writer, however. :P Even if she did come up with a framework first, I doubt Twilight would've been much better... when the main character is a big Mary Sue, who has some twisted ideas of what "romance" is, such a story usually doesn't end well regardless of how it's constructed.

I'd imagine part of being a good writer is knowing how to construct a proper framework and how/when to use them with certain plots; when the plot may need some tweaking, or the framework. If a plot idea pops into your head and you're able to construct a good framework to support it, is that any less "valid" than constructing the framework then coming up with a plot that works with it? Or conversely, is getting a plot idea in your head and have it improperly supported by a subsequently-made framework, any worse than constructing a framework and coming up with a plot that doesn't fit it?
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