Speech?

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Serrina
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Speech?

Post by Serrina »

Not sure if this particular topic was brought up, but I've always wondered what others thought about it.

Werewolves are human-wolf hybrids, correct?
They can stand on their hind legs [bipedal] as well as all four [quadrupedal], they have opposable thumbs like humans where wolves do not, they have stronger senses where most humans do not; so my question is: What about speech?

Humans can talk, and so can wolves [in their own way, not just howling or growling].
Do you think werewolves would, or should, be capable of 'human speech'?

Or better yet, let me give a few categories.
No 'human speech' is where a human, in werewolf form, cannot verbally communicate words that are audible to humans.

Partial 'human speech' is where the werewolf can form a few, simple words or small sentences, but nothing more.

Full 'human speech' is where a werewolf can speak clearly and carry a full conversation with anyone else, if they wish to.
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Re: Speech?

Post by Kigai Holt »

This is certainly a topic I've racked my mind over for quite a while. The most logical answer I could come up with is that the werewolf has its own language, which would appear to be a much more complex version of the feral wolf's form of communication (body language, subtle audio cues, scent, etc.). In essence: the wild wolf's language, ramped up to the complex and gratuitous amount of dialogue we as humans use.

Another question I haven't been able to think of a good answer for, regarding werewolf speech, is that if it were any different from human speech, how would they learn it? Would it be innate? Something that was instantly learned upon transforming for the first time? The list of possibilities goes on.
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Re: Speech?

Post by Serrina »

Hmm, that is interesting.
I'm guessing that it would be innate, in that body language [for humans] is just known, not essentially learned in a sense.
And just like the other senses of a werewolf, you'd just be able to know in general what you're capable of doing, though everything does need practice.
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Re: Speech?

Post by WildForest »

I've thought long and hard on this to, and Kigai Holt's idea is very close to what I've come up with, though not completely.

My idea is that werewolves would have a ramped-up version of the wild wolves' language, but would still be somewhat capable of verbal speech. Wolves' tongues are not physically designed to be used for speech, and that is partially why they cannot (if we ignore other factors such as intellect, evolutionary factors, etc.). But if a werewolf is a human-wolf hybrid, why couldn't their tongues have a similarly hybridized design?

I dunno. My two cents on the subject. :wink:
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Re: Speech?

Post by Scott Gardener »

I picture werewolves joking about "lycanthropese" as the "language" one speaks in Gestalt or wolf form, the garbling that happens trying to talk through a wolf muzzle.

A newly converted werewolf would be unable to say much of anything, but with practice over time one might be able to talk, though it would not be smooth diction. It would sound like a disturbing mix of yowling, singing, crying, and surreal word-substitution. In short, you would sound like Ian Astbury of The Cult.
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Re: Speech?

Post by FoxKnight »

Interesting. I like Scott's idea of them having to learn how to speak through a muzzle. Well, here's my spin on things

I always thought they would have a communication similar animals. Whether spoken or not, animals don't define things in exact words but rather ideas. i.e. Growling means to stay away, marking a territory means this land is already owned, raising a tail to appear playful when faced with an opponent they would lose to, etc.

A perfect example to relate this to is the "a" in Spanish.
One could say "voy a la restaurante," where "voy" = "I am going to," "la restaurante" = "the restaurant," and the "a" having no real meaning other than to help the sentence make sense. (The "a" is used for so much more than just this, but it's just an example)

The kind of speech they would use would be just like the "a" in Spanish, where things are just known through the context, like facial and body expressions. It would be a language that would take a while for a newly bitten werewolf to learn and one that natural-born werewolves might inherit

As for the initial question, I prefer them to have a partial human speech just so things aren't so vague. There are a lot of nouns that could be useful to a werewolf!
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Re: Speech?

Post by Stargirl »

I have a few ideas as to how werewolf language would work:
Personally, I think it would be nigh on impossible for a werewolf to actually speak verbally through a muzzle. Unless they tried to partially Change their throat only to allow for vocal cords, which is extraordinarily difficult (to Change an organ rather than an extremity), they would never be able to say words, and even then the word would come out mangled, snarly, and hard to understand. That's part of why body language, facial expressions, and gestures are so important to my werewolves.
I think it would be far more beneficial for werewolves to learn sign language or retain the ability to write (which is what my werewolves do). Werewolves with paw-hands while in hybrid form would retain their dexterity in said form, and then be able to hold a stick with which to write or draw in the dirt or make signs with their hands.
If there were an actual LANGUAGE, one with sentences and syntax etc., I imagine that it would be learned the same way humans learn a second language, unless they were brought up in a bilingual house hold/den. AKA, it would take years to become fluent if they didn't learn it before the critical period of learning language ends in childhood.
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Re: Speech?

Post by Terastas »

It's been covered a few times, but I don't think it's ever had its own exclusive topic.

Me personally, I think "partial speech" would be the height of it. Regardless of what they may be capable of in hybrid form, they still would be expected to spend the majority of their time in full human form and therefore wouldn't really have the time (or the inclination) to relearn how to speak in their hybrid form.

The more logical approach (at least in my mind) would be to learn at least some basic sign language, as I'm assuming the werewolf will still have the use of his hands in hybrid form.

Language might sound different to a werewolf's altered ears anyway, so it would make sense to me that any language they would have should be compatible with both of their forms.
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Re: Speech?

Post by LunarCarnivore »

I should think that in hybrid/gestalt form, they rely mostly on body/sign language, with some verbal cues. I just can't imagine speaking through a wolf muzzle... plus honestly i think it looks ridiculous. just my opinion :shift: :)
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Re: Speech?

Post by Fullmoonstar »

I personally think that they could only partial speak in human language, if they could speak it at all, only a very very few words which would more sound like wheezes or grunts than actual words. I personally think that it would be much more likely that could not form human words with their muzzles since they are simply not made to speak in human language. Wolves could not form proper human-words too, even if they know who they sound. It would be pretty redundant for a werewolf to speak at all. They could communicate on other ways like via smell, body language or something like that with other werewolves too and in a more effective way than to try to form words. I would even say that it would be hard(not impossible) for them to understand human language in their wolfform, since their ears would also change during the transformation.
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Re: Speech?

Post by Uniform Two Six »

Fullmoonstar wrote:I personally think that it would be much more likely that could not form human words with their muzzles since they are simply not made to speak in human language.
I respectuflly disagree. There's some dogs that try to mimic human speech, sort of like a parrott does. Some of them actually get pretty close.
Fullmoonstar wrote: I would even say that it would be hard(not impossible) for them to understand human language in their wolfform, since their ears would also change during the transformation.
My dog comes running whenever I utter certain words, for instance "squirrel" (I'm not even remotely kidding here), because he's come to associate those words with fun things to chase up trees. He will even come running from another room in the house, even when the (now forbidden) word is spoken casually in conversation.
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Re: Speech?

Post by Trinity »

Agreed with Two-Six.

Canine hearing may be slightly different from our own, but that doesn't they /can't/ hear us. More likely we can't hear certain of their vocalizations.

As for a hybrid muzzle, the shape of the human tongue is what gives us most of our ability to speak the way we do. Once that starts to change it becomes more difficult. Parrots have a flexible tongue, as do many of the "keet" species and relatives of these birds. Some canines have a mouth shape that helps, but they use a form of "shaped howl/whine" more then they use their tongue (as far as I can tell).

Human's ability to talk make it very easy for us to choke. That's something else to look into. How close to human is a Hybrid muzzle? I can see some words and some languages being easier then others (guttural, hard consonants/growling, long vowels w/ soft consonants/ barely spoken consonants). Some consonants might be clicked with the tongue to the roof of the mouth or by clicking the jaws together to mimic the sound.

However due to muzzle shape, we have to consider how our lips help make others sounds. "B, F, M, P, V, W" require the use of lips to make the sound. Ventriloquists take months of years of practice to be able to speak clearly without moving their lips at all. I could see an "elder" werewolf learning the same skills if it were a skill set to be practiced (useful for survival?), but a new werewolf.. no. It doesn't make sense for a new-changed to be able to master those sounds.

Then there is the teeth to consider. If you pop a pair of upper and lower fangs in your mouth, even as a human there is a strong accent, including the need to over-enunciate.

As a student of animation I study these things in the various animal-speaking-human-speech movies out there. Most have moving lips, like humans, even on animals that normally would not have such musculature. But because of the cartoon nature of many of these flicks we can sit comfortable in suspended belief.

Crystal-clear speech.. again perhaps plausible but not without a LOT of practice.
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Re: Speech?

Post by Uniform Two Six »

Yeah, now that I'm reading back over that last post, I realize that I didn't put that very eloquently. What I meant was that basic communication should still be possible -- it would just sound really weird. There'd probably be alot of words that would come out too garbled to clearly recognize, but basic communication shouldn't be an insurmountable obstacle (despite some misunderstandings). I can imagine a werewolf trying to utter a particular tongue-twister, and the human is constantly like "Huh?", and the werewolf finally gives up and draws the word in the dirt with a claw ("Oh! You said 'paradigm'! Okay, I understand now.").
:D
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Re: Speech?

Post by Scott Gardener »

I'll take a paragraph, translate it into lycanthropese, and then back into English...

Original, as written by human intellectual Thomas Jefferson:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
Translated into Lycanthropese:
Hweh ing tha kurse o ungang efenth, ith ingongth nessessarouh ngorung feefah thathatholth tha folithitha ngangah fith halth connetheth heng fith angotheth, angah assouh angogth tha howouh-fa tha Eeurth, tha thefarath ang engulth thas iong tho fith Thilauf oof Nathur angof Nathur's Ngof enthitiulem, ay theethenth refeth thoothith oafingith ufang ingth rethireth thath theyth ood eck-glare theth offes fith infel theth thotheth hefarathung.
And back to English, using translation software from three or four years from now:
Hewn in the curse, Oh gang infants, it ingoing necessary going fee for that that those the fall lingula fifth half connecting hinge fifth angry the angst assoult angle the how falls the Earth, the that father and engulf thus lontg though long, though fifth The Laugh Ooph! Nature angst Nature's Gopher enthusiasm, a thirtheenth reference oaf finger of fang ink rethink than that they'll odd eek glare these offers fifth Intel these though death herring.
Edit: Werewolves can therefore put their language talents to writing either filler "Loram ipsem" placeholder text or detailed instructions on how to connect a graphics card to a motherboard.
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Re: Speech?

Post by Uniform Two Six »

:roflmao:
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Re: Speech?

Post by Trinity »

*chuckles*
So... those who write tech manuals might me werewolves?

I could pick nits on verbalization, but that's just gross. ;) *chuckles* Seriously though speech forms in hybrid form need serious consideration. ;)
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Re: Speech?

Post by Serrina »

A werewolf is not a full wolf. A werewolf is not a full human.
Wolves do not have the muscles in their lips in order to form words, but humans do. Since the 'wolf' part of a werewolf 'forms out' from the human physique, wouldn't the human muscles stay in the same spot but just change to contour to a new form? Same with the tongue, the human tongue is just elongating and forming to 'mimic' a wolf's tongue. This would allow the werewolf to form rudimentary words, yet would still need practice for it to sound normal or correct.

As with the ears, it's the same concept. The human ears are changing and forming to look like a wolf's; the ears are not shifting so much that any human vocalization is incoherent, wolves are able to hear human speech. Plus, the werewolf is originally human, why would all knowledge of human speech/vocalization disappear once in werewolf form?
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Re: Speech?

Post by Trinity »

Good points - some of this is not so much a question of physical changes in the general anatomy, but what changes might be occurring in the /brain/. The wolf's inner ear is physically different from our own, but how it processes sounds may mean nothing if the brain is still mostly human.

A wolf's brain is wired to focus on smells, and /then/ sight / sounds. Humans are sight primary with not sounds so much as language as being the next important area in our brain. The brain case of a wolf evolved because of how the senses were used, same with humans. So when the werewolf changes, how much of it's brain changes too suit the new cranium? or does the rear portion of the skull look different to suit the brain?

IMO, A werewolf brain would be very important to it, in order for it to be a "predator of humans". Predators are more intelligent then most prey species, because they /have/ to out-witt /out think / out maneuver their prey.
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Re: Speech?

Post by FoxKnight »

I too agree with the points brought up by Serrina

Speaking of skulls, has there been a discussion about them yet? I'm not going so say I am a bone expert, but I believe I've learnt enough from the History, Discovery, and Science channels, as well taken enough as biology classes, to have any opinion here

The skull of a wolf and of a human are about at different as they are the same. Both have jaws, teeth, nasal cavities, etc. One of the major difference between the two skulls is the front portion of the skull around the forehead. Humans have a front portion of the brain that animals do not, which means the skull has to fit around it. That's why human skulls are more of a circle shape. Wolf skulls are horizontally rectangular mainly because of the muzzle. It really looks more aerodynamic; maybe all the better to catch prey with (there is totally a line there for Little Red Riding Hood)

As for werewolves, I see no reason they would have the aerodynamic wolf look. They started out as humans, so the only thing I see changing would be the nasal cavity and mouth, but nothing too drastic

The ears would be the same way. The brain is the same, just the ears change. Let's say that the inner ear bone remains the same and only the outside cartillage is changing. Things will still sound the same to the werewolf, just probably amplified because animal ears are designed for that. The only thing is, would they still be on the sides? Or would the skull have moved enough for the ears to be placed closer to the back? (There would be a much more elaborate change to move them to the top of the skull)

Now for ability to speak. I see no reason for the muscles in the lips and around the mouth to just disappear. They could stretch to fit on the bones of the muzzle? Maybe lips don't exactly look too great on a muzzle, but it could work enough for a werewolf to speak. The tongue too would only be changing length; it would not lose the ability to form words

However, I will not go so far as to say they could report the news or anything. I still believe they would have partial speech. They could make words and it would be difficult to speak normal english, but at worst it would be a very thick accent from Lycania

@Trinity - Please use the italics code. The back slash was only correctly used in the last sentence

(And, yes, I did kind of change my answer from my last post, but I'm going to go with the newer one)
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Re: Speech?

Post by Trinity »

@Fox Knight, I'll try but I can't promise the world. ;) Old habits die hard after all.
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Re: Speech?

Post by FoxKnight »

Trinity wrote:@Fox Knight, I'll try but I can't promise the world. ;) Old habits die hard after all.
lol Sorry if that came out like sheer disgust. I was using the italics ironically but after reading it again it didn't really doesn't read that way
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Re: Speech?

Post by Trinity »

FoxKnight wrote:
Trinity wrote:@Fox Knight, I'll try but I can't promise the world. ;) Old habits die hard after all.
lol Sorry if that came out like sheer disgust. I was using the italics ironically but after reading it again it didn't really doesn't read that way
Text is dry and emotionless. You had made a good point. :) Just acknowledging it. So no worries! :)
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Re: Speech?

Post by Scott Gardener »

Getting a human brain to fit in a wolf's skull is one of the really, really hard parts of lycanthropy. But, it's theoretically possible to compact the information density down without loss. Getting it to work biologically might be one of the last hurtles for future genetic engineers.

There is absolutely no reason for werewolves in wolf or Gestalt form with retained human personality and memory not to retain also speech comprehension. Hearing shouldn't be an issue either. If anything, they should be able to hear conversations like an FBI surveilance van. Vocal cords of wolves and humans are pretty similar; it's the mouth parts that are the big hurtle.

One could always learn sign language--suppliment "lycanthropese" with sign gestures to help distinguish "I love you" from "olive view" and "hydro food."
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Re: Speech?

Post by Trinity »

It's in part the shape of the brain as well as it's folds that make up the person. I know that the more folds it has the more information is stored, the smoother the brain the less information is stored. There is also a research project going on that says the human brain's shape (thus how it's wired) has something to do with gender identity issues.

Reshaping of the brain thus then has the potential of really messing with a person's sense of identity, perspective, and personality. :)
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Re: Speech?

Post by FoxKnight »

Or instead of "fitting a human brain into a wolf skull," you could just make the wolf skull larger

Besides, it's not like the person is totally changing into an actual wolf. It should be somewhere in between human and wolf
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