A beautiful werewolf?

[Trinity]

It's just like what I'd like to call the "Grue principle": Monsters who roar, make silly thumping sounds with their feet, and smash people to ground meat pieces like enraged giant babies on a carnivorous high are scary enough, but what about the same kind of monsters who are practically noiseless, and can come at you at any time? Surely the thought of a bark-less, howl-less, and roar-less werewolf would make people s*** their pants when you know they can hide, ambush and eviscerate without making so much as a phoned-in chop-lick, even if they're 10 feet tall.

But alas, I just can't win the ear of the more belligerent werefans with this.

It's the same base argument I put earlier. What's sacrier? The predator that can get at you because they can get close enough /to/ get you? Or the fugly thing yuo can get away from because yuo know its there and it's coming.

Look at Grizzlies. They are some of the most vicious killers out there when they are motivated to do it. However they look down right cute, especially the young.

"Pretty", or how I like to say it - "Naturalistic" werewolves to me are more frightening then the fugly ones that elicit the "omg don't touch it, it's sick" reaction in me.

If you look at a wolf's basic half snarl of warning, its enough to trigger the jump-back fear response in most people. It's saying on a basic level, I have teeth, I don't want to use them but I will if you make me. That is like the equivalent of pulling a gun out. You don't even have to wave it around to get the same kind of wary/fear response.

A low-chest deep growl I've found works well with anyone, humans, dogs or cats alike. ;)

[Serrina]

I don't see how people think werewolves are just non-stop, howling, snarling, raging, 'mindless' beasts that just run around killing everything in sight and don't give a damn.

Yes, the wolf instincts may over-take the human side of weak-minded people, but still!! Wolves are not that reckless!

[Trinity]

I don't see how people think werewolves are just non-stop, howling, snarling, raging, 'mindless' beasts that just run around killing everything in sight and don't give a damn.

Yes, the wolf instincts may over-take the human side of weak-minded people, but still!! Wolves are not that reckless!

I wish I could "vote up", like, or such this post.

[Scott Gardener]

Advocating beautiful werewolves does not mean advocating cute puppy werewolves! Cute and beautiful are not mutually inclusive categories. I live with two cocker spaniels, who are living proof of this.

Beautiful can be scary. Repulsive is scary, but alluring can be even scarier, because you can want something and not want it at the same time. Having mixed emotions is a lot harder on the brain than straight-forward thumbs up/down.

[werewolf-woman]

i would like to say that beauty is subjective and it seems like there is a sense of hostility towards the monstrous werewolf. Many of the artists who work on the practical effects for werewolf films do so as a labor of love, they seem to really care for the genre and their monstrous masterpieces. I think werewolves are monsters and if they are in a horror film it is appropriate that they are depicted as such. The werewolf is bestial and sometimes shown as gruesome to exemplify the horror of a supernatural curse. I think a graphic transformation and the look of the werewolf only exemplify the tragic nature of curse. If the id was embodied it could be rather horrific and ugly.
I think gruesome werewolves serve to reiterate that being a werewolf is undesirable. If you are going for the whole beauty and the beast thing, well the beauty would be the humanity and the beast is the werewolf...

I think werewolves like the new wolfman film and American Werewolf are amazing and i can appreciate the beauty and artistry in the design. Another comic reference for a stunning and beautiful werewolf design would be Frazetta's wolfman versus Dracula comic. a few years ago they released a statue and i was amazed at the beauty of it.

[Trinity]

i would like to say that beauty is subjective and it seems like there is a sense of hostility towards the monstrous werewolf.

Honestly I haven't seen the hostility. If it were so hostile there'd be more "pretty" werewolves and less monstrous ones. Since that isn't the case, why is even the mere subject of having something less outwardly hideous coming across as hostile? Remember that text is devoid of emotion, and we tend to read into it what we are feeling at the moment. So even simple sarcasm can come across as nasty or 'tude-ish.

Now, I could be wrong entirely. but so far most of this thread has been a bouncing of ideas, a simple debate of pros and cons. Based on the fact that there is so few "pretty" werewolves, and that there is in fact a demand for such things. And it's not even the "cutesy" fluffy cuddle werewolf that is being asked for, far from it. No. It's a more naturalistic wolf-like werewolf.

So please, if someone has been outright hostile, educate me. If I've been wrong on this assumption I'd prefer to be corrected.

Many of the artists who work on the practical effects for werewolf films do so as a labor of love, they seem to really care for the genre and their monstrous masterpieces.

I've gone to school with, help on projects with, and even bled on projects of those who have gone to school for Special fx. So I know first hand the amount of work and devotion to complete such projects that is required of a person, and how much that can cost one (and not in money). This whole film project is one giant labor of love, otherwise folks wouldn't be getting touchy about some subjects, neh? ;)

It seems to me that, and again I could be wrong, you may be applying some of our desires to have a "pretty" werewolf as an /insult/ to fx artists. At least that is how this sentence reads to me. Again, I could be wrong.

I think werewolves are monsters and if they are in a horror film it is appropriate that they are depicted as such.

Ah, but that is one opinion among many. Many of us are fans of the werewolf in general, and can appreciate the different forms. However, few of us (aside from a collection of the fluffy-loving individuals) want werewolves to loose that feral monstrosity. It's what makes them scary. What AB is trying to say is that the true monstrosity comes from the human mind within the feral beast.

Just because a werewolf is pretty on the outside does not mean that it is not ugly on the inside. Heck I've know fairly ugly-on-the-inside people who are gorgeous on the outside.

The werewolf is bestial and sometimes shown as gruesome to exemplify the horror of a supernatural curse.

Yes, as an animator I understand the need of exaggeration for the sake of getting the message across. What I'm supporting is that there is more then one way to do it, and that I'd like to see a non-traditional style body-type used.

I think a graphic transformation and the look of the werewolf only exemplify the tragic nature of curse. If the id was embodied it could be rather horrific and ugly.

That's a good point. Actually they are both very good points. With Ab's werewolves the "badness" doesn't come from the "curse" (in this case virus). The "badness" comes from the person. You know the saying, "with great power comes great responsibility"? Well becoming a werewolf places a ton of responsibility upon a person's heart and mind. Another good quote that I feel fits here, "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."

See, a power hungry (or popularity hungry) person made into a werewolf, that has /control/ over that can become a mad-person and a danger to everyone. More so then any "insane" or "non-controlled" monster. Why? Tactics. This is why predators are so scary. They can /think/. This is why, imo, that the wolf-beasts in the book Wolfen made me almost pee myself in fear (long story), and they were nothing but fictional beasts. I've seen a ton of werewolf flicks in my time.. that book is the only thing to instill that level of paranoid fear in my heart. Ever. Suspense thrillers come a close second, but no other werewolf or werewolf like film has ever touched off that cold heart of fear within me.

That is what /I/ want to see one day. A good solid werewolf film, with a solid plot, that scares the ever living crap out of me.

I think gruesome werewolves serve to reiterate that being a werewolf is undesirable.

Understood, and yes I agree. This technique has lasted for so long, and even with a pretty werewolf, this message can be passed along. The girl in Red Riding Hood denied ___ ______, when she was given the choice. That "wolf" werewolf wasn't fugly on the outside, but it sure was fugly on the inside. (trying to avoid spoilers here). That was made obvious when it couldn't control itself anymore.

If you are going for the whole beauty and the beast thing, well the beauty would be the humanity and the beast is the werewolf...

Agreed - but that doesn't have to be mutually excluded to physical form. Plus the physical beast is still that, a beast. Some of us are asking "why not a pretty beast", it still doesn't change the fact that the beast is a beast aka non-human.

Added: Humanity is a bit of a misnomer to be honest. Humanity's root is human. Part of being human is suppoedly being humane... thoughtful... considerate ...and more. It's the ability to think, make choices based on a code of conduct w/ the understanding of repercussions and consequences of those choices.

I've seen plenty of human that lack humanity.

I think werewolves like the new wolfman film and American Werewolf are amazing and i can appreciate the beauty and artistry in the design. Another comic reference for a stunning and beautiful werewolf design would be Frazetta's wolfman versus Dracula comic. a few years ago they released a statue and i was amazed at the beauty of it.

Regardless of fugly versus pretty, and regardless of tech limitations, there is a reason why there are werewolf fans... and the artistry behind the fx is part of it. A big part of it.

[werewolf-woman]

the hostility i was referencing was in Serrina's post that she felt the monstrous design is a mockery of werewolves and there are other posts that reflect a dislike of the monstrous werewolf. I may have read too much into the posts and yes i have been a victim context being lost in text posts. i totally understand that i may have misread the context of the posts. I just think it might be a oversight to dismiss the monstrous werewolf as nothing more than an ugly, drooling monster because it isn't majestic. i was just suggesting that we consider the artistry behind the creation of these monsters. i really respect the traditional monstrous werewolf and maybe if we look beyond the snarling, growling monster we can see the beauty in design and craftsmanship that went into the werewolf.
It's pretty obvious that i am an old school werewolf fan and like my werewolves tragic, cursed and monstrous.
I use the term "i think" in my posts to show that it's only my opinion, i don't want to impose on other points a view and just wanted to participate in the conversation and suggest that i can see the beauty in the design and creation of the monstrous werewolf.

I don't oppose the idea of a beautiful werewolf but i just wanted to say that i think the werewolf as a hideous monster aids not only the storyline but the subtext, in certain werewolf films. I also feel that there are many ascetically pleasing werewolves in movies and comics. I can find beauty in the design of the creature effects for werewolf films.

[Meeper]

I posted a couple of days ago, but pulled it to let my thoughts mature a bit,. There's been some good posts since then, and I think I'm realizing where the division might be.

It's probably no surprise an artist started this thread, with the proposal for an all round healthier looking beastie to frighten us, I went from being a movie werewolf fan to a werewolf artist, so I know the transition from my point of view at least

The arguments seem to be the two views, The die hard fans who don't want their gold standards (which were set by artists) of the nasty werewolf's monstrous appearance "watering down", and the artists who've gone into the creation processes who've gone past that, seen the process, and want a change, or maturation, something less deformed from "natural" state of things which is inherently monstrous by its very nature to begin with, I mean, it's a werewolf, isn't that enough?!

My perspective is just that, that all the grizzled, contorted, agonizing, disgusting, sweaty bubbling nastiness the artists cooked up to freak us out is what's actually watering down the werewolf concept of a monster in its own right, it works for creepy factor, but at the expense of the end goal, at least to me, for all the reasons GoldenWolf described. Yes, they're monstrous I'll give them that, but frankly, and I know I'll take some heat for saying this, many of them weren't very good monsters, there's been exaggeration over the years to continue to shock us, they amounted to artists trying anything they can to fool an audience, that's all.

The monster from John Carpenter's(?) remake of The Thing was a good solid monster for the artistic outlets of the sickest things you could imagine, because by its very nature it didn't matter how disfigured that thing got it couldn't help but work, it was a shape shifting, soul assimilating amorphous blob, werewolves being shape shifters, there's a tendency to use that as an explanation for some of the still-trying-to-make-it-look-good attempts failures to really nail something solid like that, but the fact is both the human and wolf shape is known, blending them together to make something utterly convincing a real artistic nightmare, which designers and artists still struggle with, one of the designers on the Underworld wolves, and I quote "wanted something more cat like", I rest my case.

Incidentally, props to Wolf-man-24 who pointed out that the underworld wolves can be reminiscent of many animals, bears, cats, etc, with just enough of a hint of human, that was a very good point, still, I think a lot of people want to see the wolf well and truly nailed.

The Meeper.

[Trinity]

First of all, thank you, I appreciate the clarification.

the hostility i was referencing was in Serrina's post that she felt the monstrous design is a mockery of werewolves and there are other posts that reflect a dislike of the monstrous werewolf.

I don't think it's so much as a dislike of the monstrous werewolf, as a wish for something other then for once. Yes I know there are some flicks where in the werewolf looks more wolf like, but they are few and far between. There is a wide range of hideous/monstrous werewolves flicks out there, more so then anything "pretty" that I've ever seen.

How ever someone did point out that "pretty" is subjective, and what you might consider "pretty enough" another might still categorize as "monstrous". I think a part of this may have to deal with the rising desire for a less monstrous werewolf.

I may have read too much into the posts and yes i have been a victim context being lost in text posts. i totally understand that i may have misread the context of the posts.

We all have done it, do it, or such at one time or another. It happens. I do thank you again for the further clarification. After all I don't live inside your head and nor you in mine. ;) I find it's easier and simpler to ask and be sure, then to assume. Ya know? I hope I haven't annoyed you too much with that. ;)

I just think it might be a oversight to dismiss the monstrous werewolf as nothing more than an ugly, drooling monster because it isn't majestic. i was just suggesting that we consider the artistry behind the creation of these monsters. i really respect the traditional monstrous werewolf and maybe if we look beyond the snarling, growling monster we can see the beauty in design and craftsmanship that went into the werewolf.

Ahhh. I think I see your point. Let's see if I'm on the right track here? I think what may have happened here is a connecting of the rejection to the artistry and not just to the werewolf as being characterized as monstrous? I've tried writing that sentence twice now to make sense, i hope it does.

To better clarify, personally I think people just want a "pretty" werewolf because the monstrous one has been done so much, so often, and reflects an older attitude (that's still around sadly) of the wolf/beast/lack of humanity connection. It's not a rejection of the artistry behind the monstrous werewolf (at least not for myself). No. It's a desire for a different form of werewolf. It's like having choco-chip cereal everyday, sometimes you want oatmeal. There is no rejection of the work that goes into the choco-chip cereal, it's just a desire to change up the flavor for your taste buds sake.

It's pretty obvious that i am an old school werewolf fan and like my werewolves tragic, cursed and monstrous.

And that's perfectly fine. We come in all shapes and sizes of fan type. There is no harm in that.

I use the term "i think" in my posts to show that it's only my opinion, i don't want to impose on other points a view and just wanted to participate in the conversation and suggest that i can see the beauty in the design and creation of the monstrous werewolf.

I don't oppose the idea of a beautiful werewolf but i just wanted to say that i think the werewolf as a hideous monster aids not only the storyline but the subtext, in certain werewolf films. I also feel that there are many ascetically pleasing werewolves in movies and comics. I can find beauty in the design of the creature effects for werewolf films.

Yes, the "monster on the outside" style of werewolf has its place, and it really depends on the movie/comic/etc being made. What sort of story they are trying to promote, and how they are going about the depiction of "evil" or "bad" in terms of the werewolf itself.

I also agree that if more people knew the details of what goes into making a classic werewolf, they'd have a better appreciation of it. Or so I believe. The details we see on DVDs or "behind the scenes" doesn't really put it into a decent perspective. ;)

[LunarCarnivore]

Incidentally, props to Wolf-man-24 who pointed out that the underworld wolves can be reminiscent of many animals, bears, cats, etc, with just enough of a hint of human, that was a very good point, still, I think a lot of people want to see the wolf well and truly nailed.

The Meeper.

Hey, thanks That idea struck me as i was writing the post, and I was like "hey, that makes sense....and it justifies the cat-like werewolves that I think are cool... I'm using that."

I do want the Freeborn wolves to be beautiful and natural looking, mostly because I read the script and I don't think it would work any other way. I don't think there needs to be a divide on this, after all, we are all werewolf fans, and that means we've all liked both at one time or another. I think every dog...er wolf... has his day. Beautiful werewolves are a natural look expressive of man and animal joining together, while monster werewolves are an expression of a tortured soul designed to instill terror, and both are completely valid. Judge the story/art/tech not the wolf.

[Scott Gardener]

Van Helsing did a great job balancing beautiful with monstrous. Dog Soldiers did pretty well--more monstrous than beautiful (yes, I know that was the intent), but looking like real creatures instead of slimy rat-finks, and thus having a certain beauty about them. Bad Moon did likewise. So, there's a few we have to acknowledge--not as much as we think could be, but there are some.

But movies like Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Askaban? Come on! The Potter series is a billion dollar franchise with excellent writing, great characters, and in every other respect absolutely stunning visuals. The one thing, the only thing they made ugly that should not have been was Professor Lupin. They did it to imspire a sense of pity. But, a beautiful werewolf that actually looked part wolf would have had a much better effect.

[LunarCarnivore]

yeah HP was a huge disappointment. I walked in to the theatre thinking "hey, this is a HUGE budget movie, the werewolf will be badass!" and he wasn't. in the books, HP werewolves are almost completely wolf-like.. i would have preferred that. At least the TF was cool, and Sirius in Dog form was kinda awesome... so two halves = whole?

[Goldenwolf]

I'm going to be an enormous jerk and point out that the werewolf in the upper right of the montage of 'preferred' werewolves that Goldenwolfen put up, looks suspiciously like a screen-capture from Van Helsing (like, a movie with werewolves in it -- just saying).
Heh, heh, heh...


Off topic: I totally agree about "Shift Happens". That's still my favorite Goldenwolfen piece.

Even further off topic: Hey, now that I'm looking at it, the wolf-head just to the left of the Van Helsing one doesn't look right... It's almost as if she cropped it or something...

Now that you point it out, the 'Van Helsing' werewolf picture is actually the Van Helsing werewolf.
Probably for the reason I commented two posts after Goldenwolf's initial one: the Van Helsing werewolves are actually the the first movie werewolves that look real, 'beautiful', and/or natural.

XP I had originally meant to add a side note about Van Helsing, that that movie had the most "beautiful and natural" looking werewolves to date. Yet even they missed the mark because there were no tails, and they had those weird ears. Oh so close, but still not entirely quite there. But yeah, when Hugh Grant changed into -that-....I cheered, I drooled, I cried a little. That is why I had to include it in what my vision of a "beautiful wolf" is.

[JoshuaMadoc]

I'd also like to make another brief reminder: We can horror-up werewolves as much as we like and make our werewolf movies into yet another one of those socio-political psycho-theraputic Freudian commentaries with gore, but the horror can only get werewolves so far before it becomes as gimmicky as tree-hugging werewolves in fantasy.

I know I can't do any better as an artist to convince anyone that werewolves are more than just those two, but dammit guys, I hope the rest of you can.

[Trinity]

Side note: Dr. Who season 2 episode 3 I think had a very nice "natural" looking werewolf, it's tail was short (more like an extended coccyx) but it at least looked less monsterous then what I've seen.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IeoCDtDWgMk/T ... rewolf.jpg

http://www.sylvestermccoy.com/newdoctorwho/werewolf.jpg

~~~~~~~~~~~

I just noticed that tonight while watching it on Netflix.

[Shadow Wulf]

One thing that occurred to me with the underworld lycans specifically, is how versatile that look is. It's got elements common to all large mammalian predators, yet is just human/monstrous enough to avoid specificity. In some shots it's wolf-like, in others bear-like, and catlike alot of the time. so it's reasonable to assume, if werewolves looked like that, that one species could be responsible for all the werewolf/werecat/werebear etc myths world-wide. That makes a little more sense to me than many species evolving the ability to shapeshift parallel to each other.

Bingo, you hit the mark right there with what the FX artists were trying to go for. Being an obvious fan of the underworld lycans I admire with the completely different approach they went with the werewolves for the series. It's a design that I have never seen before in any werewolf film, sure it may not look totally like a wolf but the artist was trying to flex out his creativity and did a great job in that too. He said in a behind the scene of the first movie that he wanted the lycans to have somewhat of a cat-like design and to look appealing to the eyes somewhat. The underworld lycans looked natural and attractive to me, there was nothing physically disgusting about them, no bubble face, no slimy skin, or face that was just angry all the time and deformed and as it looked as you described it; "versatile". This is great but at the same time it conflicts with a lot of werewolf fans visions, I believe it is an underlying problem with why we see werewolves look hideous, monstrous and just not very wolf like most of the time, the artists usually isn't a werewolf fan like we are, he is a creature artist, he doesn't want to just slap a wolfs head onto a humanoid body with digitigraded legs, maybe to them that is being somewhat lazy, maybe they want to add their own touch, make a monstrous werewolf in their own vision. Creature artists often try to come up with an original and abnormal design. It's the reason why the 1998 Godzilla looks nothing like the Japanese Godzilla the artist didn't like that design and wanted to add his own touch, and yes, even add a cat-like look to it and make it more attractive(his own words). Also as Meeper pointed out, as they try to do this they usually waterdown the werewolf concept of a monster, and the end result is that it just looks like garbage.

The monster from John Carpenter's(?) remake of The Thing was a good solid monster for the artistic outlets of the sickest things you could imagine, because by its very nature it didn't matter how disfigured that thing got it couldn't help but work, it was a shape shifting, soul assimilating amorphous blob, werewolves being shape shifters, there's a tendency to use that as an explanation for some of the still-trying-to-make-it-look-good attempts failures to really nail something solid like that, but the fact is both the human and wolf shape is known, blending them together to make something utterly convincing a real artistic nightmare, which designers and artists still struggle with, one of the designers on the Underworld wolves, and I quote "wanted something more cat like", I rest my case.
The Meeper.

Thank you, this is exactly what I think is the kind of trap that FX crews set themselves up for when making a werewolf movie. Well said Mr. Meeper!

But anyway I can agree with most of you that its high time that we get a werewolf that looks more of a jaime sidor and goldenwolf style. We had way too many ugly werewolves and I'd love to be able to see one that actually has a natural wolf look to his face, but I still rather has some very minor human details to show that it's not just a wolf head on a human body. Over the years my views on werewolves have changed drastically, from being monstrous like the howling and typical werewolf movies, to goldenwolf style. I can understand werewolf-woman concern and I agree I don't want to see the old werewolf lore in being haunted with a curse to go away. But I haven't seen many movies that shows characters embracing lycanthropy in a good way, I can probably name all of them with one hand.

[werewolf-woman]

First of all, thank you, I appreciate the clarification.

the hostility i was referencing was in Serrina's post that she felt the monstrous design is a mockery of werewolves and there are other posts that reflect a dislike of the monstrous werewolf.

I don't think it's so much as a dislike of the monstrous werewolf, as a wish for something other then for once. Yes I know there are some flicks where in the werewolf looks more wolf like, but they are few and far between. There is a wide range of hideous/monstrous werewolves flicks out there, more so then anything "pretty" that I've ever seen.

How ever someone did point out that "pretty" is subjective, and what you might consider "pretty enough" another might still categorize as "monstrous". I think a part of this may have to deal with the rising desire for a less monstrous werewolf.

I may have read too much into the posts and yes i have been a victim context being lost in text posts. i totally understand that i may have misread the context of the posts.

We all have done it, do it, or such at one time or another. It happens. I do thank you again for the further clarification. After all I don't live inside your head and nor you in mine. ;) I find it's easier and simpler to ask and be sure, then to assume. Ya know? I hope I haven't annoyed you too much with that. ;)

I just think it might be a oversight to dismiss the monstrous werewolf as nothing more than an ugly, drooling monster because it isn't majestic. i was just suggesting that we consider the artistry behind the creation of these monsters. i really respect the traditional monstrous werewolf and maybe if we look beyond the snarling, growling monster we can see the beauty in design and craftsmanship that went into the werewolf.

Ahhh. I think I see your point. Let's see if I'm on the right track here? I think what may have happened here is a connecting of the rejection to the artistry and not just to the werewolf as being characterized as monstrous? I've tried writing that sentence twice now to make sense, i hope it does.

To better clarify, personally I think people just want a "pretty" werewolf because the monstrous one has been done so much, so often, and reflects an older attitude (that's still around sadly) of the wolf/beast/lack of humanity connection. It's not a rejection of the artistry behind the monstrous werewolf (at least not for myself). No. It's a desire for a different form of werewolf. It's like having choco-chip cereal everyday, sometimes you want oatmeal. There is no rejection of the work that goes into the choco-chip cereal, it's just a desire to change up the flavor for your taste buds sake.

It's pretty obvious that i am an old school werewolf fan and like my werewolves tragic, cursed and monstrous.

And that's perfectly fine. We come in all shapes and sizes of fan type. There is no harm in that.

I use the term "i think" in my posts to show that it's only my opinion, i don't want to impose on other points a view and just wanted to participate in the conversation and suggest that i can see the beauty in the design and creation of the monstrous werewolf.

I don't oppose the idea of a beautiful werewolf but i just wanted to say that i think the werewolf as a hideous monster aids not only the storyline but the subtext, in certain werewolf films. I also feel that there are many ascetically pleasing werewolves in movies and comics. I can find beauty in the design of the creature effects for werewolf films.

Yes, the "monster on the outside" style of werewolf has its place, and it really depends on the movie/comic/etc being made. What sort of story they are trying to promote, and how they are going about the depiction of "evil" or "bad" in terms of the werewolf itself.

I also agree that if more people knew the details of what goes into making a classic werewolf, they'd have a better appreciation of it. Or so I believe. The details we see on DVDs or "behind the scenes" doesn't really put it into a decent perspective. ;)

No worries, i am not annoyed at all. I think clarifying really leads to better communication and understanding
i think you got my point.
I was just posing a suggestion that the monstrous werewolf is dismissed as ugly but upon deeper reflection on the creation of the werewolf, beauty can be seen in the design and aesthetic. I think that even something as horrific as the werewolves in the comic Ferrals, has a beautiful werewolf design, it's not pretty or majestic but i am amazed by the artistry in the design.

I totally get the desire for something new and i was just saying even monstrous werewolves have elements of beauty, you just have to search for it.

[werewolf-woman]

I posted a couple of days ago, but pulled it to let my thoughts mature a bit,. There's been some good posts since then, and I think I'm realizing where the division might be.

It's probably no surprise an artist started this thread, with the proposal for an all round healthier looking beastie to frighten us, I went from being a movie werewolf fan to a werewolf artist, so I know the transition from my point of view at least

The arguments seem to be the two views, The die hard fans who don't want their gold standards (which were set by artists) of the nasty werewolf's monstrous appearance "watering down", and the artists who've gone into the creation processes who've gone past that, seen the process, and want a change, or maturation, something less deformed from "natural" state of things which is inherently monstrous by its very nature to begin with, I mean, it's a werewolf, isn't that enough?!

My perspective is just that, that all the grizzled, contorted, agonizing, disgusting, sweaty bubbling nastiness the artists cooked up to freak us out is what's actually watering down the werewolf concept of a monster in its own right, it works for creepy factor, but at the expense of the end goal, at least to me, for all the reasons GoldenWolf described. Yes, they're monstrous I'll give them that, but frankly, and I know I'll take some heat for saying this, many of them weren't very good monsters, there's been exaggeration over the years to continue to shock us, they amounted to artists trying anything they can to fool an audience, that's all.

The monster from John Carpenter's(?) remake of The Thing was a good solid monster for the artistic outlets of the sickest things you could imagine, because by its very nature it didn't matter how disfigured that thing got it couldn't help but work, it was a shape shifting, soul assimilating amorphous blob, werewolves being shape shifters, there's a tendency to use that as an explanation for some of the still-trying-to-make-it-look-good attempts failures to really nail something solid like that, but the fact is both the human and wolf shape is known, blending them together to make something utterly convincing a real artistic nightmare, which designers and artists still struggle with, one of the designers on the Underworld wolves, and I quote "wanted something more cat like", I rest my case.

Incidentally, props to Wolf-man-24 who pointed out that the underworld wolves can be reminiscent of many animals, bears, cats, etc, with just enough of a hint of human, that was a very good point, still, I think a lot of people want to see the wolf well and truly nailed.

The Meeper.

I'm an artist, i make low brow and subcultural iconographic art and i love the classic monstrous werewolf design. i have made a few werewolf pieces over the years.
I don't think its a matter of artistic maturation but rather personal preference and taste. I'm not sure if you are suggesting one type is more evolved than the other but i think all artistic tastes have merit.

@ kitetsu:
I really think calling a transformation gimmicky only bolsters my point that the monstrous werewolf is dismissed because it isn't pretty..
Beauty can be found in Analyzing the artistry in the creation of the monstrous werewolf. Good examples of what i find to be beautiful werewolf designs are the Comic Ferrals and Frazetta's wolfman. I just feel that the monstrous werewolf is too easily dismissed as nothing more than a drooling slimy monster but looking a little deeper may cause one to find the beauty in it.

[LunarCarnivore]

One thing that occurred to me with the underworld lycans specifically, is how versatile that look is. It's got elements common to all large mammalian predators, yet is just human/monstrous enough to avoid specificity. In some shots it's wolf-like, in others bear-like, and catlike alot of the time. so it's reasonable to assume, if werewolves looked like that, that one species could be responsible for all the werewolf/werecat/werebear etc myths world-wide. That makes a little more sense to me than many species evolving the ability to shapeshift parallel to each other.

Bingo, you hit the mark right there with what the FX artists were trying to go for. Being an obvious fan of the underworld lycans I admire with the completely different approach they went with the werewolves for the series. It's a design that I have never seen before in any werewolf film, sure it may not look totally like a wolf but the artist was trying to flex out his creativity and did a great job in that too. He said in a behind the scene of the first movie that he wanted the lycans to have somewhat of a cat-like design and to look appealing to the eyes somewhat. The underworld lycans looked natural and attractive to me, there was nothing physically disgusting about them, no bubble face, no slimy skin, or face that was just angry all the time and deformed and as it looked as you described it; "versatile". This is great but at the same time it conflicts with a lot of werewolf fans visions, I believe it is an underlying problem with why we see werewolves look hideous, monstrous and just not very wolf like most of the time, the artists usually isn't a werewolf fan like we are, he is a creature artist, he doesn't want to just slap a wolfs head onto a humanoid body with digitigraded legs, maybe to them that is being somewhat lazy, maybe they want to add their own touch, make a monstrous werewolf in their own vision. Creature artists often try to come up with an original and abnormal design. It's the reason why the 1998 Godzilla looks nothing like the Japanese Godzilla the artist didn't like that design and wanted to add his own touch, and yes, even add a cat-like look to it and make it more attractive(his own words). Also as Meeper pointed out, as they try to do this they usually waterdown the werewolf concept of a monster, and the end result is that it just looks like garbage.

Yeah, I love the Lycans. They are (to me at least) the best representation of Werewolves in film. They are loyal to eachother, fierce warriors, have control over their changes while still being monstrous in a great way. They are capable of love and good, and also of evil. Plus, if you really watch all the underworld movies (which i have many, many times) closely, you realize how much respect the various filmmakers and effects guys have for the genre. True, the plot is sometimes a little jumpy, and they use gimmicks ( 12 foot tall werewolf in the latest installment? ok, it's an action movie, i'll let it go), but overall the Lycans are as diverse as human beings. And there is that one shot in Rise of the Lycans, just after Lucian has shifted to save Sonja from the feral wolves, and he looks at her. That is a beautiful face IMO. I guess its subjective. Those are my favorite in film, but in art I do prefer Goldenwolf et al. I have a feeling that after Freeborn, Underworld will be #2.

[werewolf-woman]

@ wolfman 24
i agree about Underworld, i love the multiple types of werewolves and the designs are fantastic. I definitely see the beauty in their design.
How many types of Lycans are there?
the Original William werewolf.
the first generation of Lycans, who looked closer to Williams design and never returned to human form.
the Lucian, generation of lycans, who were more evolved and turned at will
the starving ill lycans from the latest film
the mega lycan from the latest (done in all CGI, i would have preferred practical effects but he was still cool looking)

is that all i feel like i am forgetting one, should i include the hybrid in the lycan types?

[Leonca~]

Hmm, I didn’t know that about the Underworld werewolves. I’ll have to pay more attention to their design next time I see it. Reminds me of the werewolves in Steve Vance’s book The Hyde Effect. They mostly just grew hair and fangs and more slender/muscular limbs, and different cultures supposedly saw their dominant predator in the look to create shapeshifter myths.

[werewolf-woman]

I'm not sure if you are suggesting one type is more evolved than the other

That's completely separated from the pursuit of aesthetic precision based on what is known, rather than what is desirable or of certain taste, the known things are the man and wolf forms, which these style fueled tastes frequently violate, over and above the violations incurred by simply blending the forms together, for no other reason than some have a taste for it.

but i think all artistic tastes have merit.

That may be, but when push comes to shove, what artistic merits, and who's artistic tastes should we obey? Your monstrous werewolves? Van Helsing's buffed, gorgeous, but flawed werewolves? Project Metal Beast's frankly unrecognizable weaponized werewolf (we got to see PMB's werewolf unarmored, looked alright actually it's a crying shame we didn't get to see more of it)? The furry fandom's pretty werewolves? There's only one constant, the forms from which the werewolf is derived, and when you've had all the the bad-a** you can stand, or the cute, or the gorgeous, to where should we gravitate when we want a good solid movie werewolf?

Personally? I went back to basics for my artistic attempts.

That's the maturity I speak of. (end of meeper quote)



@ Meeper:

Again " pursuit of aesthetic precision" is completely up to artistic interpretation, what you find to be the purist form may not be what i find to be the purist form (subjective terminology like purist form really only further my assertion). Taste do not violate what form is considered desirable it allows for individual creative vision. Your desire for an aesthetically pleasing, 'beautiful" is fueled by your taste and interest. As for the purist form, that could be interpreted with endless variety based on style, interest and again personal taste. Tastes do not fuel "violations of form but rather drive creative interpretations of form.

you stated you went back to basics for your werewolf design and that was the maturity you were referencing, but i would say that is part of stylistic evolution. Going back to basics is not a sign of maturity but a decision you made as an artist and the direction in which you chose to move your work in.


I am not suggesting we obey any specific tastes, i am just pointing out the subjective nature of what one may view as a beautiful werewolf design.
I am merely adding my opinion in stating that i see the beauty in the monstrous werewolf. I would never suggest that an artist is bond by the confines of what one individual may feel is the superior design, i was just stating my opinion and not implying that my taste is superior to another.
but serious props for mentioning metal beast, that is all kinds of low budget B-movie goodness

when you break all of this down it really does boil down to taste and there is nothing wrong that. A desire to breakaway from the statuesque is born out a desire to see something that matches your own individual personal vision (taste is included in personal vision).

[Meeper]

*snip*

The post was deleted for a reason, I'm tired, werewolf-woman.

The Meeper.

[JoshuaMadoc]

@ kitetsu:
I really think calling a transformation gimmicky only bolsters my point that the monstrous werewolf is dismissed because it isn't pretty..
Beauty can be found in Analyzing the artistry in the creation of the monstrous werewolf. Good examples of what i find to be beautiful werewolf designs are the Comic Ferrals and Frazetta's wolfman. I just feel that the monstrous werewolf is too easily dismissed as nothing more than a drooling slimy monster but looking a little deeper may cause one to find the beauty in it.

My dismissal of "monstrous werewolves" is far less about a matter of beauty (though that's still a ridiculous issue I'm getting just as tired of), and more about the fact that I see no other symbolic meaning being conveyed by the portrayal of ogre-like things people insist are werewolves.

It's like being frustrated at token bimbos only having their sex appeal and their sex work being the only thing that defines them as characters.

[werewolf-woman]

*snip*

The post was deleted for a reason, I'm tired, werewolf-woman.

The Meeper.

when i was typing my reply the quote was not deleted, after i posted i saw it was gone but i thought you brought up an interesting point and was happy to have a discussion on your ideologies on form. If you would like me to delete my post so your deleted comment is gone, i have no problem doing so.