control in WW form

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Volkodlak
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control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

I noticed that we kinda mention this in other topics but im curius about your opinion on this:

how much control do you have when are you changed:
-no control and you dont remember anything
-little control: aka hulk variant and you remember fragments of the night/change
-medium control: you are partialy in control your human personality is is noticable by others but you still dont poses clear mind and thinking
-high control: you are mostly in control your personality and intelegence are visable but you are still prone to wolfish behavior
-total control: you are in total control of yourself
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Chris »

Depends on the story ultimately, but in general I'd go for little to medium control.

Too much control, and you essentially just get a guy in a fur coat. It doesn't really do much to represent the monster/animal side if all that happens is the person grows fur but remains largely the same mentally. The sense of struggle or desperation is lost, which makes the lycanthropic condition feel more incidental than anything. Teen Wolf (the 80s movie) had this problem. I saw no reason why Scott's lycanthropy an issue, it was simply his attitude that was a problem.

Similarly, too little control and it becomes more difficult to attribute the actions of the werewolf to the protagonist, even by proxy. They're either a rampaging monster or a completely wild animal when changed (depending on your view), devoid of any personality that's had by the person. It essentially becomes a completely separate character that just happens to take the place of the protagonist. As much as I like the movie, I'd have to say this is a point where An American Werewolf In London faltered (though it was helped by the fact that David Naughton and Jenny Agutter gave exquisite performances and it happened relatively late in the film). At no point did I feel bad for David because of what he did when changed because it didn't feel like him doing those things.

Personally, I like my werewolves to be on the 'monster' side of things. Enough for the person to know (eventually) what they are and what they do when changed, with maybe a little influence over their actions, but ultimately unable to escape their bestial nature. Something needs to carry over when they change to keep the connection with the character, but they also need to be monstrous enough to bring conflict.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

Chris wrote:Depends on the story ultimately, but in general I'd go for little to medium control.

Too much control, and you essentially just get a guy in a fur coat. It doesn't really do much to represent the monster/animal side if all that happens is the person grows fur but remains largely the same mentally. The sense of struggle or desperation is lost, which makes the lycanthropic condition feel more incidental than anything. Teen Wolf (the 80s movie) had this problem. I saw no reason why Scott's lycanthropy an issue, it was simply his attitude that was a problem.
ok you give humans too much credit.

lottery if you win you get lot of money and this change people in both direction some become better some become worse but this is only money imagen if you get power most will start too use it for their personal gain some will try too help others.and you do represent monster at first youst by outside aperance and if you start thinking you are a monster you will start behaving like it. its all in personality of person being turned.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Chris »

lovec1990 wrote:its all in personality of person being turned.
Right, which is what I was saying. If a person retains full control when changed, the most sensible people would simply stay locked up in their room. They're going to be sleeping most of the night anyway, so it's only a few hours of inconvenience. If a person retains full control but wants to use the abilities, it starts becoming comic book super-hero/super-villain stuff. Person gets infected with something and gains a bunch of power, then goes out to use it for good/evil. Could just as easily replace the werewolf with a radioactive spider.

To me, a werewolf works best when it expresses a duality. The normal "civilized" person, and the monstrous "uncivilized" beast, in one being. How the person handles the fact that he's occasionally forced to change and give in to his bestial instincts, going against what he wants to do, how he keeps hidden, how he deals with it emotionally, how he prepares himself to keep safe and the consequences of when those preparations sometimes fail and things go wrong anyway, etc.

<digression>
If there's any negative I can lay against the werewolves in Being Human (UK), it would pretty much be that. Unlike the vampire, who occasionally gives in to his monstrous side, acts against his better judgement, and has appropriate consequences for those actions... the werewolf really doesn't. He always keeps himself safe for the full moons (sometimes against all logic; apparently werewolves can't bust through frail glass windows), so there's rarely ever any problem with him.

The monster is there but nothing monstrous happens, and aside from some mood swings he never wants anything bad to happen. And the few times a problem does arise, there's no consequence. Lost track of the time or were detained so you started changing in public? That's okay, you'll make it to a hidden cage in time. Got tricked so you end up changing and being let loose in a room full of people? That's okay, they'll get out before anything happens.

There's so much that could've been done if they allowed more to happen with him. George had lycanthropy for months before meeting Mitchell, but we never see or hear about any real problems he's had. Not even his first transformation. Just imagine if instead of Mitchell being involved with the Boxcar attack, George was. How would he act after realizing what he did? How would he handle the possibility of survivors? What would people do if survivors started screaming "werewolves!"? And what if in the days leading/following a full moon, he actually liked it despite knowing he shouldn't?

It's a bit ironic that when paired with a go-lucky ghost and a vampire that can live a calm life in society if he so chose, it's the werewolf that's the least monstrous of the group.
</digression>

But yeah. For me, protagonist werewolves work best when they're driven to act against the nature of the person. Having it so the werewolf acts crazy just because he thinks he has to act crazy doesn't have the same vibe, to me. It's a "curable" problem, a problem that can be fixed so they'll have full control and just become a man with a fur coat.

Of course, this doesn't mean other types of werewolves can't still be enjoyable. I'm not terribly picky on the type of werewolf as long as it's a good movie or story. I'm merely talking about what I like best.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

yes but George had no control but he had good heart so he lock himself in cage but ones in Underworld have high too full mental control but we mostly saw them during combat its also stated that they are uncontrolable during first shift so they could be evil.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Terastas »

For me, I'd say it would vary. Any changes to the brain during shifting are negligible, but there are two things to consider instead:

#1: Stress

Shifting is brutal, especially for the first time. Words just can't do it justice to describe what it's like to have your entire body distorting all the way down to the bone, so most werewolves aren't prepared for what it feels like, so most werewolves snap in one way or another before it's over.

#2: Different sensory organs

Humans have good eyesight and a poor sense of smell, whereas wolves have the reverse. The werewolf's brain doesn't necessarily undergo any changes, but the signals the brain is receiving receive a major overhaul; it suddenly starts experiencing the world in ways it doesn't know how to interpret.

So when a werewolf shifts for the first time, he does so under such excruciating pain that his brain, for lack of a better word, tries to shut down under it. Then when the pain subsides and the werewolf's brain reboots, it can't make sense of the world around it.

So it's not a lack of control, per say, that causes werewolves to exhibit wolfish behavior. Half of it is due to stress, and the other half is due to sensory confusion.

I mention all of that because it relates to how I would answer your question. I don't think there would be a one-size-fits-all answer that is true of all werewolves. Instead, I would expect werewolves to start somewhere towards the top of the list, and then as they become more accustomed to shifting and get more experience with the wolf form, would work their way down to the bottom.

The lowest I would put it would be "no control," which is where the werewolf passes out as soon as the shift is over.

The highest I would expect them to be able to go would be somewhere in between "high control" and "total control." I say this because I believe they would be able to eventually retain 100% of their mentality / personality, but that, since they have different sensors, the challenge isn't suppressing instincts so much as developing new ones. Suppressing all wolfish behaviors would mean suppressing the means by which he interprets the world around him, which, in turn, would compromise his mentality. Highest I would expect a werewolf to go, therefore, would be to retain all mentality and memory, but to still exhibit at least a few wolfish behaviors.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

nice reply

stress:i agree with you

diffrent sensory organs: i agree but i have some remark
-confusion yes but normaly you will change in private so smells and sounds shouldnt bother you too much meybe senses would bother you if you cange in woods.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Berserker »

If a werewolf would "lose control," then why? Is it because of "the wolf," whatever that means? Are wolves in control? Scientists are starting to reach a consensus that most animals exhibit intentional actions, i.e., are "in control" of themselves. This would particularly be true of mammals with relatively complex neocortexes, like humans, and wolves.

Whenever someone describes the state of werewolfery as one where there's a danger of "the wolf taking over," I wonder then, is a werewolf the combination of two completely separate entities, two completely different consciousnesses vying for the territory of a single brain? In my view, this cannot be the case. A werewolf is not a whole wolf and a whole man occupying the same mind, but rather a new creature entirely, one that splices seamlessly the sensibilities of both species. It has its own personality, its own fully developed mind; there are no "human instincts" versus "wolf instincts," but rather instincts that are entirely new: "werewolf instincts." Defining those would be the key.

And in this case, I believe the ability to not only act intentionally but to retain the capability of forming an abstract judgement about one's own actions, would not be lost, but rather enhanced by a whole new set of primordial concerns. It's my own personal opinion that a werewolf would be a creature governed more by passion than his typical human cousin: his emotions would sway further to an extreme end of the human spectrum, but not so far as to make him a creature of absolute emotion, as a wolf might be. A newly turned werewolf would be perhaps alarmed at this change in his own personality, but it would not take too much effort to adjust to it.

I also don't believe "sensory overload" would have much of an effect. Imagine a person with terrible near-sightedness getting glasses for the first time, or a person born with hearing loss getting a hearing aid for the first time. Their senses have been enhanced by whole orders of magnitude, but you rarely hear stories about them freaking out because of it.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

Berserker wrote:If a werewolf would "lose control," then why? Is it because of "the wolf," whatever that means? Are wolves in control? Scientists are starting to reach a consensus that most animals exhibit intentional actions, i.e., are "in control" of themselves. This would particularly be true of mammals with relatively complex neocortexes, like humans, and wolves.

Whenever someone describes the state of werewolfery as one where there's a danger of "the wolf taking over," I wonder then, is a werewolf the combination of two completely separate entities, two completely different consciousnesses vying for the territory of a single brain? In my view, this cannot be the case. A werewolf is not a whole wolf and a whole man occupying the same mind, but rather a new creature entirely, one that splices seamlessly the sensibilities of both species. It has its own personality, its own fully developed mind; there are no "human instincts" versus "wolf instincts," but rather instincts that are entirely new: "werewolf instincts." Defining those would be the key.

And in this case, I believe the ability to not only act intentionally but to retain the capability of forming an abstract judgement about one's own actions, would not be lost, but rather enhanced by a whole new set of primordial concerns. It's my own personal opinion that a werewolf would be a creature governed more by passion than his typical human cousin: his emotions would sway further to an extreme end of the human spectrum, but not so far as to make him a creature of absolute emotion, as a wolf might be. A newly turned werewolf would be perhaps alarmed at this change in his own personality, but it would not take too much effort to adjust to it.

I also don't believe "sensory overload" would have much of an effect. Imagine a person with terrible near-sightedness getting glasses for the first time, or a person born with hearing loss getting a hearing aid for the first time. Their senses have been enhanced by whole orders of magnitude, but you rarely hear stories about them freaking out because of it.
i see that we have difrent views on topic and i like it
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Terastas »

Berserker wrote:I also don't believe "sensory overload" would have much of an effect. Imagine a person with terrible near-sightedness getting glasses for the first time, or a person born with hearing loss getting a hearing aid for the first time. Their senses have been enhanced by whole orders of magnitude, but you rarely hear stories about them freaking out because of it.
Not "sensory overload" so much as sensory confusion. I don't envision the brain snapping under it -- just having trouble interpreting it.

There's a movie called Gin Gwai, or The Eye (which I highly recommend) about a girl who receives a cornea transplant after being blind since the age of two. Because she's been blind for as long as she can remember, however, she has no "visual vocabulary" and still needs to reach out and feel an object before she can recognize it for what it is. Since she'd been blind for so long, her brain was quite literally not programmed to interpret visual stimuli anymore.

I imagine the transition from human to werewolf senses working kind of like that. It's not that they can't handle it -- it's that they won't immediately know how to interpret it.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Meeper »

Terastas wrote:
Berserker wrote:I also don't believe "sensory overload" would have much of an effect. Imagine a person with terrible near-sightedness getting glasses for the first time, or a person born with hearing loss getting a hearing aid for the first time. Their senses have been enhanced by whole orders of magnitude, but you rarely hear stories about them freaking out because of it.
Not "sensory overload" so much as sensory confusion. I don't envision the brain snapping under it -- just having trouble interpreting it.

There's a movie called Gin Gwai, or The Eye (which I highly recommend) about a girl who receives a cornea transplant after being blind since the age of two. Because she's been blind for as long as she can remember, however, she has no "visual vocabulary" and still needs to reach out and feel an object before she can recognize it for what it is. Since she'd been blind for so long, her brain was quite literally not programmed to interpret visual stimuli anymore.

I imagine the transition from human to werewolf senses working kind of like that. It's not that they can't handle it -- it's that they won't immediately know how to interpret it.
Or maybe like the transition from the real world to a virtual world perhaps? There's a parallel here that's much closer to home for all of us to partake of, the humble video game. I watched some coverage of the 2012 quakecon (on youtube), and among them was fairly deep discussion of virtual reality, therein was stated the fact that the brain is such a wonderful thing, once you cross a certain threshold of sensory feedback with presentation and interface devices, the brain just take care of the rest, you can gloss over and forget about the unrealistic lighting, the gigantic pixels shuffling around the screen, the joypad in your hands, and to all intents and purposes your brain is in the game fighting the monsters.

While the brain might have its work cut out waking up its entirely unused visual cortex "hardware" in someone who's been blind since birth, during which their other sensory inputs have been refined and polished to make up for it, that in itself is clear demonstration of just how far the brain can go in realigning what it needs to do with sensory stimulation, it'll be weird for sure, but you'll soon shrug it off when you get your bearings, just like in a video game, once you get used to the mouse and keyboard of the werewolf form, you'll be zinging along merrily, occasionally cursing your werewolf mouse for slipping off the mat, or your werewolf fingers for getting lost on the werewolf keyboard. The blindness example is a good one, but most of us are not going to be battling the come back from a totally depreciated sense organ like that, it'll just be tweaking the balance of sensitivity around a bit, and if the brain is as good and plastic as the scientists would have us believe, it'll just suck it up and deal.

Or is this a inappropriately nerdy interpretation of things? :lol: . How about the dog that shrugged off losing a whole front leg? The muscles, balance, and sensory feedback adjusted to cope, and the dog no longer gives a flying fig leaf.

Lastly, the matter of control in and of itself, it's really just a comparison between an idea and a reality, it's easy to discuss it as a story plot device and forget all about what and why it really is. It's presumed that wolves lack humanity and therefor have no control, that's the story plot idea that tends to give rise to the question in the first place as I understand it. I try to step back and interpret that wolves simply don't care about our rules and boundaries like we do, it doesn't necessarily mean they're out of control, they just have different priorities (like much of humanity truth be told), like using their sense of smell on you in very embarrassing ways, for reasons known only to themselves :lol: .

Just my thoughts for the offering.

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Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

you add stress,pain and sensory confusion you have unhuman behavior for first change.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Chris »

Meeper wrote:Lastly, the matter of control in and of itself, it's really just a comparison between an idea and a reality, it's easy to discuss it as a story plot device and forget all about what and why it really is.
Generally when I talk about "losing control", what I mean is a person who doesn't do what the person wants to do.

Like I mentioned, I like werewolves to express a duality. The person and the "Other", each with its own set of wants and needs. A person losing control, then, is simply when he stops behaving according to his own wants and needs, and is instead acting according to the Other's. The Other can be just as much of a thinking creature as the person, but that doesn't mean they'll respond the same way. The Other may want to go out and kill for any number of reasons and enjoys it, while the person doesn't want to and finds it sickening, but does it anyway when changed. So even though the Other is in full control, has complete awareness, and knows full well what it's doing, I still say the person "lost control".

Having a little control, then, is when the Other is largely in control, but there could be rare instances where the person's behavior may express itself over the Other's. Say, like, recognizing a loved one and begrudgingly leaving them alone, even though it'd otherwise want to kill them like anyone else.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

Chris wrote:
Meeper wrote:Lastly, the matter of control in and of itself, it's really just a comparison between an idea and a reality, it's easy to discuss it as a story plot device and forget all about what and why it really is.
Generally when I talk about "losing control", what I mean is a person who doesn't do what the person wants to do.

Like I mentioned, I like werewolves to express a duality. The person and the "Other", each with its own set of wants and needs. A person losing control, then, is simply when he stops behaving according to his own wants and needs, and is instead acting according to the Other's. The Other can be just as much of a thinking creature as the person, but that doesn't mean they'll respond the same way. The Other may want to go out and kill for any number of reasons and enjoys it, while the person doesn't want to and finds it sickening, but does it anyway when changed. So even though the Other is in full control, has complete awareness, and knows full well what it's doing, I still say the person "lost control".

Having a little control, then, is when the Other is largely in control, but there could be rare instances where the person's behavior may express itself over the Other's. Say, like, recognizing a loved one and begrudgingly leaving them alone, even though it'd otherwise want to kill them like anyone else.

chris i dont think duality would come too all.As i understand you are refering to multiple personality disorder(MPD) you have normal you and other some may get it some will not recive this is all in our heads MPD can be couse of trauma(shapeshifting pain).
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Re: control in WW form

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lovec1990 wrote:chris i dont think duality would come too all.As i understand you are refering to multiple personality disorder(MPD) you have normal you and other some may get it some will not recive this is all in our heads MPD can be couse of trauma(shapeshifting pain).
I'm having a difficult time understanding what you're saying. Can you please use a spell-check and proper punctuation?

In a way, yes, it's like multiple personality disorder, but with physical implications (in the body-transformation sense) in addition to the mental ones. Whether or not any given werewolf is like this depends on the writer and how they wish to portray their werewolves. Depending on what the writer wants, all, some, or none of their werewolves may be like this. There are no hard facts on what a (physical) werewolf is since they're a fantasy creature, not real, but this is how I like to see them.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

i will write simpler:some will gain MPD some will not.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Meeper »

Chris wrote:
Meeper wrote:Lastly, the matter of control in and of itself, it's really just a comparison between an idea and a reality, it's easy to discuss it as a story plot device and forget all about what and why it really is.
Generally when I talk about "losing control", what I mean is a person who doesn't do what the person wants to do.

Like I mentioned, I like werewolves to express a duality. The person and the "Other", each with its own set of wants and needs. A person losing control, then, is simply when he stops behaving according to his own wants and needs, and is instead acting according to the Other's. The Other can be just as much of a thinking creature as the person, but that doesn't mean they'll respond the same way. The Other may want to go out and kill for any number of reasons and enjoys it, while the person doesn't want to and finds it sickening, but does it anyway when changed. So even though the Other is in full control, has complete awareness, and knows full well what it's doing, I still say the person "lost control".

Having a little control, then, is when the Other is largely in control, but there could be rare instances where the person's behavior may express itself over the Other's. Say, like, recognizing a loved one and begrudgingly leaving them alone, even though it'd otherwise want to kill them like anyone else.
*sigh, I think I fluffed my post.

Ok, first off, Chris. I can understand the loss of control in terms of the human side giving way to the wolf side, that struggle makes for thigh slappingly good plot and an interesting character, but it also drives people's imagination when considering a question of control, which is precisely why I mentioned it, to identify it so it can be pushed aside to make way for the rest of the idea I wanted to try lay down, not become the focus of it, you weren't meant to isolate it like that you silly sausage!

Let me try again, I was basically agreeing with Berserker's research, while the human may "lose control" to the wolf, it doesn't follow that the wolf is itself out of control, that assertion as I understand it, is born of the story inspiring conflict of the wolf's interests which aren't explicitly the same as humanity's interests, if that makes sense. It's like humanity saying to the idea of the wolf "if you're not with me, then you're against me", when the wolf simply doesn't care one way or another, humanity isn't in control of the wolf, the wolf is in control of the wolf, and when a wolf takes over control of a human, humanity cannot accept that, even though the wolf may well uncaringly bring you your slippers and morning paper (if only you'd stop shooting at it).

*Edit* Right, that's why, I just realized I spewed a load of meaningless claptrap. I think I may retire from the forum.

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Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

only way i think you would act like wolf is if you develop MPD
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Terastas »

Meeper wrote:The blindness example is a good one, but most of us are not going to be battling the come back from a totally depreciated sense organ like that, it'll just be tweaking the balance of sensitivity around a bit, and if the brain is as good and plastic as the scientists would have us believe, it'll just suck it up and deal.
Not completely, but converting over from a human nose to a wolf's nose might feel that way.

What would really complicate things for werewolves, however, is not the extremeness of one transition to the other, but the fact that all of their sensors are transitioning. In the example of the blind girl, she had no visual vocabulary, but the rest of her senses were unchanged. A werewolf, on the other hand, would be subject to changes to all his sensory organs; he couldn't necessarily learn to interpret his ultra-heightened sense of smell in how it compares to his sight because his sight will be different as well.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Uniform Two Six »

I have a slightly different take on this topic, so I'll (somewhat unwisely) throw my hat in the ring.

The way I read most of the traditional justification for the wolf rebelling against the human psychological thing is this: The human comes from a highly structured society in which most behaviors are either perscribed or proscribed. The wolf on the other hand is entirely wild and the idea of being constrained by what one is permitted to do is incomprehensible. In this way the werewolf becomes the perfect metaphor for casting off the shackles of humanity (or whatever).

I think this view misses something rather pertinent:

Wolves have a fairly sophisticated societial structure themselves. Although there is obviously a fair amount of "the strongest dominates all others through violence", in reality that's only a small part of a wolf's society (I.E. their pack). For a wolf, there is a fair bit of learning what is acceptable and what is not, including some fairly complex concepts such as learning "bite-inhibition", and pack hierarchy, which at the lower levels doesn't involve fighting as much as most people assume. More submissive members of a pack tend to avoid such conflicts and adopt their position in their pack from other sorts of social interaction (in many cases forming apparently social cliques within packs). I short, I'm not so sure that human civilization and societal structure would be all that alien to a wolf, and my perfect example of this is the domesticated dog. Humankind would never have been able to domesticate the dog (or at least not as well and thoroughly as we have) if the wolf could never get some of the more basic elements of interacting with humans (yes, you can domesticate a horse, but you don't see many curling up on the living room floor).

Thusly, I view the "conflict" between the wolf and the human in a werewolf, more in instincts causing the human to knee-jerk towards certain actions, sort of like a dog who has been well-trained, and is comfortable with his place in a human household, but will nevertheless bolt off across the street after a squirrel. He knows that he's not supposed to do it, but instinct momentarily overcomes conditioning.
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Volkodlak
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

and there is thing about person turned ones that were willingly turned will have little problems with difrent sensory input but ones that are bitten unwilingly and arent awere of WW exsistance will have a lot problems and they will probably seek help witch wont end well.

personaly Terastas has the best idea of control for me.
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Re: control in WW form

Post by ABrownrigg »

I can answer this for the series sake.
how much control do you have when are you changed:
-no control and you dont remember anything
-little control: aka hulk variant and you remember fragments of the night/change
-medium control: you are partialy in control your human personality is is noticable by others but you still dont poses clear mind and thinking
-high control: you are mostly in control your personality and intelegence are visable but you are still prone to wolfish behavior
-total control: you are in total control of yourself
The answer is.

... yes. (or 42)

AB
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

ABrownrigg wrote:I can answer this for the series sake.
how much control do you have when are you changed:
-no control and you dont remember anything
-little control: aka hulk variant and you remember fragments of the night/change
-medium control: you are partialy in control your human personality is is noticable by others but you still dont poses clear mind and thinking
-high control: you are mostly in control your personality and intelegence are visable but you are still prone to wolfish behavior
-total control: you are in total control of yourself
The answer is.

... yes. (or 42)

AB
could you explain your answer because i have hard time understanding it
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Re: control in WW form

Post by LunarCarnivore »

He means that every werewolf is an individual, so at one time or another all of the options are true. Some werewolves have complete control, some have no control, and some are in the middle. There are no rules that apply to every single werewolf, just like there are no rules that apply to every single person. Everybody is unique. :D
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Re: control in WW form

Post by Sevena »

I think control would come from experience within werewolf form and the will to control yourself.In my opinion you would have both your human senses and wolf senses but not be able to control them or focus on one individually at first.In the beginning you wouldn't be accustomed to the feelings and changes happening but with time you would be able to master certain aspects of the change.Though I also think that you would be prone to more animal behavior while in werewolf form I don't think,unless you want them to or let them, that they would cause you to loose control all together.
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