control in WW form

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
User avatar
Volkodlak
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:05 am
Gender: Male
Mood: Bored
Location: Slovenia

Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

Ok, i was doing a little homework on this topic expecialy about senses and other stuff:

some say TF WW will experienced sensory confusion, but some say sensory overload this is my take:

sight: none from above because human sight is good already if not better than wolfs.
hearing: i belive it would be sensory overload you will hear more than you are used too and this will couse overload.
smell:here it would be sensory confusion and overload, because known smells would become way stronger and you would smell a lot of new smells you newer smelled before.

On control i think only organ in body that shouldnt change at all are brains but i think little brains would adopt allitle so you could move on all 4,
So there is no control loss while changed, but some could snap(brutal shift,rejection,...) or power could get into their head.
Image
User avatar
Scott Gardener
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 4731
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:36 pm
Gender: Male
Mood: Excited
Location: Rockwall, Texas (and beyond infinity)
Contact:

Re: control in WW form

Post by Scott Gardener »

That seems to be the general consensus--that you do not specifically lose your free will or sense of self, and no "alternate personality" takes over. But, the dramatic change in perception and sensory input overwhelms the mind, and the human subconscious and set of instincts are replaced or merged with wolf subconscious and instincts. You're still you, only not human you.
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...
User avatar
Volkodlak
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:05 am
Gender: Male
Mood: Bored
Location: Slovenia

Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

Scott Gardener wrote:That seems to be the general consensus--that you do not specifically lose your free will or sense of self, and no "alternate personality" takes over. But, the dramatic change in perception and sensory input overwhelms the mind, and the human subconscious and set of instincts are replaced or merged with wolf subconscious and instincts. You're still you, only not human you.
I will had to disagree with this to a point in my opinion person does not gain new instincts just by being bitten and new senses more things need to accure that makes this new instincts manifest and not all will get them
Image
User avatar
Scott Gardener
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 4731
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:36 pm
Gender: Male
Mood: Excited
Location: Rockwall, Texas (and beyond infinity)
Contact:

Re: control in WW form

Post by Scott Gardener »

Different interpretations, but...

You've got a great point, in that someone coming into it for the first time would conceivably have a lot of human perception bias, and would thus try to relate to things from a human perspective, especially if he or she is actively trying to resist being changed. An experienced lycanthrope would be more readily able to work with instead of against a lupine frame of mind.

Still, instincts are by definition that which "comes naturally." Experience and knowledge help you get good at it.
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...
Seth Fharlay
Dealing with the Change
Dealing with the Change
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:39 pm
Gender: Male
Mood: RAR!

Re: control in WW form

Post by Seth Fharlay »

I suppose I'll throw in my two cents:

For my species of werewolves, the diresensaout (dee-ray-SAHN-satt), they have a high level of control. They don't have complete control because there are some wolfish traits, tendencies, and instincts that are part and parcel of this lycanthropy, but they act in conjunction with said werewolf's original personality, thoughts, emotions, etc. They're still themselves, only more wolfy.

There is only one time the direwolves ever lose control, and that is on involuntary hunts. For these werewolves, they have to kill and eat live meat of their own volition to be able to keep control over their transformations. However, if they don't, they'll one day undergo an involuntary transformation where the wolf instincts take over and makes them hunt. And that could spell all kinds of disaster if they transform in public.

Mind you, the diresensaout don't hunt humans for a very important biological reason, whether they're on an involuntary hunt or not. Those 'wolves that actively hunt and kill humans are called semälfyresensaout (suh-MAHL-fear-sahn-satt).
User avatar
Terastas
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 5193
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:03 pm
Custom Title: Spare Pelican
Gender: Male
Location: Las Vegas
Contact:

Re: control in WW form

Post by Terastas »

lovec1990 wrote:
Scott Gardener wrote:That seems to be the general consensus--that you do not specifically lose your free will or sense of self, and no "alternate personality" takes over. But, the dramatic change in perception and sensory input overwhelms the mind, and the human subconscious and set of instincts are replaced or merged with wolf subconscious and instincts. You're still you, only not human you.
I will had to disagree with this to a point in my opinion person does not gain new instincts just by being bitten and new senses more things need to accure that makes this new instincts manifest and not all will get them
True that. But humanity's only real natural instinct (beyond the base level reflexive stuff like recoiling from pain, squinting at bright lights, etc) is to mimic one's piers. That means most (if not all) of our instincts were learned, and that, were we to acquire a different set of parts and sensory organs, our instincts would have to be relearned.

The idea for me isn't that a natural instinct would take over, but that the werewolf would have to learn how to interpret the world as a wolf would, which would entail acting a little more wolf-like in turn.
User avatar
Volkodlak
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:05 am
Gender: Male
Mood: Bored
Location: Slovenia

Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

Scott: i see we have difrent views on topic, but in my view there is no lupine frame of mind brains do not undergo any changes at all and only part of brains whitch could have changes is cerebellum(new sensory,shifting, four legged motion), but only way human will start acting like wolf if he belives he needs to.

Terastas: i have too dissagree there is no diffrent sensory organs just some of them are far more sensitive(hearing,smell) and it was said that human uses sight>hearing>smell, but wolf smell>hearing>sight so why would WW after changing wolf order of using sensory organs if hes human in mind.
So to sum thing up WW may freak out during first shift because of oversensitive smell and hearing, but he would use sight as primary sensory organ so no troubles with inrepeting world.
Image
User avatar
Uniform Two Six
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 1142
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:56 pm
Location: Hayward, CA

Re: control in WW form

Post by Uniform Two Six »

lovec1990 wrote: So to sum thing up WW may freak out during first shift because of oversensitive smell and hearing, but he would use sight as primary sensory organ so no troubles with inrepeting world.
Keep in mind though, even if a werewolf were to rely on sight as a primary sense (as you imply, simply out of familiarity and habit), there's still going to be a few "gotchas" along the way since the physical structure of the canine eye is radically different than that of a human. The cone/rod-structure proportion is completely off, and that's not even going into the tapis-lucidium (or however-the-hell that's spelled) feature. Canine eyesight is geared toward very low-light sensitivity and motion-detection. A wolf as a general rule cannot distinguish the same level of fine detail that a human can, and color perception is probably likely off as well. In short, even if the werewolf's mind is totally untouched by the transformation, the world is going to look a heck of a lot different than he's used to.
User avatar
Volkodlak
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:05 am
Gender: Male
Mood: Bored
Location: Slovenia

Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

Uniform Two Six wrote:
lovec1990 wrote: So to sum thing up WW may freak out during first shift because of oversensitive smell and hearing, but he would use sight as primary sensory organ so no troubles with inrepeting world.
Keep in mind though, even if a werewolf were to rely on sight as a primary sense (as you imply, simply out of familiarity and habit), there's still going to be a few "gotchas" along the way since the physical structure of the canine eye is radically different than that of a human. The cone/rod-structure proportion is completely off, and that's not even going into the tapis-lucidium (or however-the-hell that's spelled) feature. Canine eyesight is geared toward very low-light sensitivity and motion-detection. A wolf as a general rule cannot distinguish the same level of fine detail that a human can, and color perception is probably likely off as well. In short, even if the werewolf's mind is totally untouched by the transformation, the world is going to look a heck of a lot different than he's used to.
i heard that dogs have weak color recognition, poor vision up close and excellent sensitivity to peripheral movement. but WW is also human i think this could create diffrent eyesight witch could be more human like
Image
User avatar
Uniform Two Six
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 1142
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:56 pm
Location: Hayward, CA

Re: control in WW form

Post by Uniform Two Six »

Perhaps in a hybrid form (ala The Howling), but for a pure wolf form, I think it would be more akin to that of a normal wolf.
User avatar
Terastas
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 5193
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:03 pm
Custom Title: Spare Pelican
Gender: Male
Location: Las Vegas
Contact:

Re: control in WW form

Post by Terastas »

lovec1990 wrote:Terastas: i have too dissagree there is no diffrent sensory organs just some of them are far more sensitive(hearing,smell) and it was said that human uses sight>hearing>smell, but wolf smell>hearing>sight so why would WW after changing wolf order of using sensory organs if hes human in mind.
So to sum thing up WW may freak out during first shift because of oversensitive smell and hearing, but he would use sight as primary sensory organ so no troubles with inrepeting world.
Because those sensory organs still work differently from the ones he'd had previously. Just because a werewolf still has sight, that doesn't necessarily mean he'd be able to make sense of what he's seeing.

Sight, I figure, would be the hardest sense to adapt to because it's the one we predominantly rely upon as humans, meaning we would have the hardest time reprogramming ourselves to interpret a new sense of sight.

Hearing would be better, albeit at the cost of being more sensitive. This, I expect, would lead to the development of some instinctive aversions.

Smell, on the other hand, is something the human brain has barely any programming, so if it suddenly became incredibly reliable, I would expect the werewolf to spend a lot of time asking himself "The hell is that?" and do a lot of sniffing around.

My expectation would be that, during the first few shifts, the werewolf would be overwhelmed by their new sense of smell and spend a lot of time experimenting with it and trying to make sense of it. Once they've adapted to it, they'll then have to learn to reinterpret their sense of sight, which they may be required to do as it relates to their sense of smell. And by the time they are fully adapted to their wolf sensory organs enough to interpret their sense of sight relative to a human's, they'll probably likewise be adapted to their new sense of smell and just habitually rely equally (if not more so) on that anyway.

I would expect them to retain their human brain and, once over the initial shock, to not behave inherently wolf-like, but I wouldn't expect them to be able to act like they have no wolf in them either. The occasional sniff is one of those things they wouldn't be able to avoid doing.

Walking on all fours, I'm sorry to say, would be another. I figure that because, before we learned to walk, we learned to crawl. More critically, we've been learning to walk on legs and feet that have only been undergoing minor changes in size (but not shape) year after year. Give somebody a set of parts a completely different shape from what they'd spent decades before knowing nothing else and they're going to be lucky if they can stand up long enough to find a place to sit down. So before they can learn to walk upright like a human as a werewolf, they're going to have to make due with walking on all fours like a wolf.

And just like the sense of smell, even if they eventually relearn how to walk, I would expect them to sometimes move on all fours out of habit anyway.

I know this because, for a long time, I did it. I can't be the only one who ever found it easier to go up stairs using our hands like it was a ladder or to crawl instead of standing up and sitting back down at a short distance.

Then there's the case of Kenichi Ito, who trained himself to run monkey style and now has a hard time walking normally.

These are both examples of a human being, with all the parts of an upright-walking human and all the instincts of an upright-walking human, otherwise finding it more convenient to move on all fours. So who is to say that a human suddenly given a pair of legs he can't even stand up straight on wouldn't just stay on all fours until he can shift back instead of suffering the indignity of learning to walk all over again?
Image
User avatar
Volkodlak
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:05 am
Gender: Male
Mood: Bored
Location: Slovenia

Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

Terastas:

As i said earlier that dogs have weak color recognition, poor vision up close and excellent sensitivity to peripheral movement so i think WW should have something in between and i think he would be able to identify most things.

For hearing and smell i agree with you.

about: but I wouldn't expect them to be able to act like they have no wolf in them either. The occasional sniff is one of those things they wouldn't be able to avoid doing. i think if you sniff more it doesnt makes you more wolf like, but most people around you could think you are behaving more like wolf because you are changed and not in your human form.

as for walking i have to disagree walking on two would be easy to learn if i was able to walk with digitigrade stilts without falling in first try i think walking on four is more problematic because is unatrual too us at our current age.As for full wolf form we would have troubles.

as for stairs only in stairs that have 85° degress angle i turn on my 4WD
Image
User avatar
Terastas
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 5193
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:03 pm
Custom Title: Spare Pelican
Gender: Male
Location: Las Vegas
Contact:

Re: control in WW form

Post by Terastas »

lovec1990 wrote:As i said earlier that dogs have weak color recognition, poor vision up close and excellent sensitivity to peripheral movement so i think WW should have something in between and i think he would be able to identify most things.
That's still a pretty big difference. No, the werewolf wouldn't be blind, but that's still way different from the way his brain is accustomed to seeing the world.
if you sniff more it doesnt makes you more wolf like, but most people around you could think you are behaving more like wolf because you are changed and not in your human form.
Actually, it does. It's a minor change, but it still counts towards the total.
as for walking i have to disagree walking on two would be easy to learn if i was able to walk with digitigrade stilts without falling in first try i think walking on four is more problematic because is unatrual too us at our current age.As for full wolf form we would have troubles.
That would make you a remarkable exception to the rule. Most people have trouble the first time they try wearing high heels.
User avatar
Volkodlak
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:05 am
Gender: Male
Mood: Bored
Location: Slovenia

Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

Terastas wrote:
lovec1990 wrote:As i said earlier that dogs have weak color recognition, poor vision up close and excellent sensitivity to peripheral movement so i think WW should have something in between and i think he would be able to identify most things.
That's still a pretty big difference. No, the werewolf wouldn't be blind, but that's still way different from the way his brain is accustomed to seeing the world.
i agree that vision would be diffrent, but something in between human and wolf sight i belive you would identify things without problems.
if you sniff more it doesnt makes you more wolf like, but most people around you could think you are behaving more like wolf because you are changed and not in your human form.
Actually, it does. It's a minor change, but it still counts towards the total.
meybe because some people do sniff more and it doesnt make them weird or more wolf like,but i agee if WW is changed into non human form
as for walking i have to disagree walking on two would be easy to learn if i was able to walk with digitigrade stilts without falling in first try i think walking on four is more problematic because is unatrual too us at our current age.As for full wolf form we would have troubles.
That would make you a remarkable exception to the rule. Most people have trouble the first time they try wearing high heels.
i did walk akwardly first 15min, but even i had problems with going down the stairs withot falling but luckly i didnt fall
Image
User avatar
Uniform Two Six
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 1142
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:56 pm
Location: Hayward, CA

Re: control in WW form

Post by Uniform Two Six »

lovec1990 wrote: i did walk akwardly first 15min, but even i had problems with going down the stairs withot falling but luckly i didnt fall
I should probably know better than to ask, but... Why were you wearing high-heels?
:eyebrow:
User avatar
Volkodlak
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:05 am
Gender: Male
Mood: Bored
Location: Slovenia

Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

uniform it wasnt high-heels, but digitigrade stilts
Image
User avatar
Uniform Two Six
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 1142
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:56 pm
Location: Hayward, CA

Re: control in WW form

Post by Uniform Two Six »

lovec1990 wrote:uniform it wasnt high-heels, but digitigrade stilts
Oh, is that the euphemism we're using now?
(Ba-Dum-Bam!)
:D

Seriously though, what are those things like (digitigrade stilts, I mean). Whenever I see anything about them, there's these pictures of people -- very crazy people -- using them to vault over eight-foot fences and cars and running at like, 20 miles per hour and stuff. Can you seriously do all that? I at first thought all that was faked, like most everything on YouTube, but I keep hearing that that's not the case. Otherwise, it sounds like a very effective way to break one's neck or put oneself in the hospital.
User avatar
Volkodlak
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:05 am
Gender: Male
Mood: Bored
Location: Slovenia

Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

Uniform Two Six wrote:
lovec1990 wrote:uniform it wasnt high-heels, but digitigrade stilts
Oh, is that the euphemism we're using now?
(Ba-Dum-Bam!)
:D

Seriously though, what are those things like (digitigrade stilts, I mean). Whenever I see anything about them, there's these pictures of people -- very crazy people -- using them to vault over eight-foot fences and cars and running at like, 20 miles per hour and stuff. Can you seriously do all that? I at first thought all that was faked, like most everything on YouTube, but I keep hearing that that's not the case. Otherwise, it sounds like a very effective way to break one's neck or put oneself in the hospital.
What is euphemism?

you can do this stuff, but i didnt used spring stilts but normal digitigrade stilts meant for costumes
Image
User avatar
Uniform Two Six
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 1142
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:56 pm
Location: Hayward, CA

Re: control in WW form

Post by Uniform Two Six »

lovec1990 wrote: What is euphemism?
A word that is a gentler replacement for another, more direct word. (I was making a joke about the high-heels -- never mind).
lovec1990 wrote:you can do this stuff, but i didnt used spring stilts but normal digitigrade stilts meant for costumes
Fursuiting are we?
:grinwiggle:
User avatar
Volkodlak
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:05 am
Gender: Male
Mood: Bored
Location: Slovenia

Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

my friend will dress into reptilian creature with digitigrade stilts and when i was there i asked if i can try his stilts.

and we are going offtopic

if werewolfs are real they have very good control or there is organization or team of people who cover up werewolf attacks
Image
User avatar
Uniform Two Six
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 1142
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:56 pm
Location: Hayward, CA

Re: control in WW form

Post by Uniform Two Six »

lovec1990 wrote: if werewolfs are real they have very good control or there is organization or team of people who cover up werewolf attacks
Yeah -- that or people just wouldn't believe werewolves were real even if confronted with video evidence, a taped confession, and half-eaten bodies.
User avatar
Volkodlak
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:05 am
Gender: Male
Mood: Bored
Location: Slovenia

Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

Uniform Two Six wrote:
lovec1990 wrote: if werewolfs are real they have very good control or there is organization or team of people who cover up werewolf attacks
Yeah -- that or people just wouldn't believe werewolves were real even if confronted with video evidence, a taped confession, and half-eaten bodies.
and you know why people wont belive, because animal can maul human too, video evidence can be edited too include WW(CGI) and taped confesion, because one who claims could be paid to say it or is crazy.
My bet is high control
Image
User avatar
Uniform Two Six
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 1142
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:56 pm
Location: Hayward, CA

Re: control in WW form

Post by Uniform Two Six »

And, to repeat myself: If they were real, then they might well be running amok as we speak, and nobody notices -- because, y'know it was obviously a dog mauling...
:evil:
User avatar
Volkodlak
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:05 am
Gender: Male
Mood: Bored
Location: Slovenia

Re: control in WW form

Post by Volkodlak »

Well lets talk allitle more:

Control: Im not fan that person just by changing into WW form gets temperement and/or aggresion problems, werewolf instincts or wolf like thinking, becouse if this things come with becoming a werewolf they should be visible in all forms. Main part of human brains should not be touched only cerebellum would need some input about four leged motion and increased senses. But as Terastas said shift is brutal so some people would snap and start thinking they need too attack and maul humans, becouse of movies or they could be in such shock and denial that they will develop second persona witch would surface when they change into non-human form, but most people will put their mind back together and live with their new condition, but some external help would be very helpful.

Some said it would be boring if you are totaly in control, but i agree if this is meant for a movie or TV series, but in real life 99,9% of our life is boring we do not see aliens,monsters or be in some extreme and/or weird situations that will never repeat themself so Full control would work plus in movie you can give a person some pre existing issues like mental issues,etc...
Image
User avatar
Uniform Two Six
Legendary
Legendary
Posts: 1142
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:56 pm
Location: Hayward, CA

Re: control in WW form

Post by Uniform Two Six »

Well, here's my take: First off, I think that the werewolf maintaining his mental faculties is much more interesting from a story perspective since human beings are complex things mentally. It leads to all sorts of plot-driven conflicts both internally (how he feels about his new condition - revulsion, excitement, sociopathy, etc.), and externally (keeping others from learning of his new nature, conflicts with people who have found out, etc.). If he just turns into an instinct-driven animal, it's basically just a predator doing predator-stuff. That can be interesting plot-wise for, say, a straight-up horror movie, but it's still sort of limited. There are few predators in the wild (as in the real world) that will openly prey upon humans. What happens to them most of the time? Somebody with a gun shows up and shoots them. There's not much room for plot development there -- which is why The Wolfman was awesome for its special effects, but was still a fairly lousy movie in general.

As for the practical issues of why going nuts would happen, I'd put this out there: Any animal that's wounded / in pain / or frightened, will often react violently. Even the most gentle, loving dog will still freak out if it's, say, drowning. Even if under normal circumstances it would understand that you're trying to rescue it, it will still bite when you grab for it -- because it's panicked and working on pure instinct. Humans are the same way. A drowning human is as panicked as one can get, and consequently will do incredibly stupid things purely on instinct (like, say, grab for a live electric cable dangling just over the water, or pulling under a fellow swimmer or rescuer).

If the Change were sufficiently painful, I could reasonably see one going nuts. If psychological changes were to be thrown in, like the addition of certain canine instincts, that would just increase the likelihood, I think.
Post Reply