A Moral Dilemma

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A Moral Dilemma

Post by ABrownrigg »

This was started on another thread, but was suggested it be better placed here,.

Let me explain the scenario.

IN Freeborn.. Sherri, (like in the original movie script) is bitten accidentally.. by what she thinks is just a natural wolf.. she passes out from the attack.. but not killed.. The wolf in question panics and contacts some more experienced wolves to step in.

they carry her to their own safehouse.. and have a discussion on what to do with her. When she wakes up.. she's under the impression that she's been kidnapped.. screaming to be let go.

Dilemma.. holding someone against their will.. at least until they can explain to her what's going on.. What would you do? let her go without explaining? or hold her against her will until she knows the truth.

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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Terastas »

Coincidentally, there's a nearly identical scene in Inhuman. Paul passes out and wakes up in the company of his intended supervisor. . .

Though the way they get around it is by only telling him one thing and one thing only right off the bat: Where the bathroom is. Which is all they tell him initially because they know he's going through the purging phase of his transition and is going to need it really soon after waking up. They then explain what he's going through from the other side of the door.

I don't know how lycanthropy differs in the Freeborn setting, but I would imagine the transition there is no picnic either. So while I wouldn't actively hold a person against their will, I would, for lack of a better word, script their waking moments to my advantage. I'd be careful to make it look/sound like they're not being held against their will, ask them if they're okay and what happened as soon as they wake up, tell them I/we found them passed out and all that. But I'd also ensure they don't bolt by making sure the scenario encourages them to at least stick around long enough to listen to what I have to say.

In the Inhuman example, they take advantage of what's happening to his body during the transition state. Were lycanthropy a fairly easy transition, on the other hand, I'd work it out by setting the scene, so to speak. Like, say, putting her in the back seat of the car, driving out into the middle of nowhere and pretending to have engine trouble and a bad cell phone reception.

At least that'd be the ideal situation. If I couldn't make that happen; if it really was just a one-or-the-other scenario. . . I wouldn't get between her and the door, but my parting words to her would be "Hey, you want me to explain what the hell just happened before you go?" or something else to that effect.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Scott Gardener »

Pragmatism overrides morals on this; you'd have to hold her against her will until she fully appreciated what was about to happen to her. Having a newly infected lycanthrope on the loose, who doesn't even know she's a werewolf or has yet to believe it after being told, would be too dangerous to both herself and to other werewolves as a whole.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Sevena »

Scott Gardener wrote:Pragmatism overrides morals on this; you'd have to hold her against her will until she fully appreciated what was about to happen to her. Having a newly infected lycanthrope on the loose, who doesn't even know she's a werewolf or has yet to believe it after being told, would be too dangerous to both herself and to other werewolves as a whole.
Well said and I totally agree

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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

i would try to explain to her when she wakes up, if she wants to go i would let her, besides holding her against her will is wrong
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by WerewolfKeeper3 »

Or:

Explain to her that there have been rabid wolves in the woods recently {said wolf who bit her might need to bite his/her tongue, but the insult is also in direct connection with how STUPID THAT INDIVIDUAL IS}, and that they found her unconscious in the woods. One of the people there will have to pretend to be a doctor {or they call in an actual Doctor they have who sees to them whenever they're seriously injured}, and that they didn't want to move her.

Although... does she want to call someone to let them know where she is? Does she not believe them based upon where she was at the time? Does someone {i'm guessing the newbie who bit her} let something slip? etc.

After/when she starts turning they can then start explaining what's going on with her. She won't be able to run or argue with them, because, i'm guessing, she'll be in too much pain.
If they can control the shift, or can control themselves after shifting they might be able to keep her there until after they shift back.

Then comes the fun part of helping her through the transition, though i might suggest one of them says something along the lines of "Have you seen any werewolf movies?" {she's probably heard about a few at least} "What usually happens to the werewolf?" This should get her to release two things: one, they didn't hurt her and two, they are her best chance for survival now. {Although if she's seen one of the 'American Werewolf' movies, it might do you good to tell her killing the one who bit her won't turn her back.}

... or something like that...

EDIT: I also realize how that sounds, but at this point, trying to explain to a human who believe werewolves are myths is probably going to get a few 'you're all insane' comments and her trying to escape. Trying to keep her calm, and someplace safe for the time being would be the best, since it's less likely she'll bolt at first. She still won't be completely calm because she probably doesn't know whose brought her here, and there will probably be a couple of 'urban legends' floating around her head now but... best thing i can come up with.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

i need to ask WerewolfKeeper3 its not clear to me:


does transformation hapen the same day she was bitten?
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Terastas »

Scott Gardener wrote:Pragmatism overrides morals on this
True. Though it was actually from a pragmatic stance that I was arguing in favor of not holding her against her will. Ask yourself what would be a greater threat: A newly-bitten werewolf on her own, or a werewolf within the pack who doesn't trust you and is most likely resentful of you?

The former is certainly problematic, but it's only a short-term problem that, frankly, I would expect to eventually resolve itself. She won't actually turn until the next full moon after she's become fully adapted to lycanthropy, so as more of the effects of the transition manifest, the more likely it is that she'll return to demand answers.

Though she'll be less likely to return the more reason she has to feel threatened or otherwise weary of the place. First and foremost, you want the newcomer werewolf to think she can trust you, or at least feel safe enough approaching you.

Ideally, she shouldn't have a choice, but it's important that she at least have the illusion of choice; to prevent her from leaving, not by holding her against her will, but by making the option to leave as terrible a choice as possible. She's not liable to make it any further than your driveway, for example, if you're out in the middle of nowhere -- a lot less likely to jump out of the car if you're doing 80 mph on the freeway. Even though you don't want her to have any other options, you still want her to think that they are technically there.

You do this because, now that she's a werewolf, you're going to be seeing a lot of each other.

In Inhuman, werewolves identify other werewolves to each other by referring to them as "family." Which is an effective analogy because, love them or hate them, you're stuck with them. So you want to be on as good of terms as possible with the rest of the family as possible.

For that reason, you don't want any werewolves to feel like they didn't have a choice. The more they feel like they were forced into this, the more liable they are to resent you, if not the pack as a whole. And the more they resent the pack, the more likely it is that they may one day go rogue.

And a rogue werewolf is a much greater threat than a bumbling beginner. That's why, if you can't present the illusion of options when there aren't any, the options would be better given for real than not offered at all.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

Terastas i agree with you on most points, but giving her illusion that she have a choice isnt right you need to give her real freedom of choices.
Best bet is becoming friend with her and tell or show her the truth. Dont stalk her because when she would belive you she will come too you for help
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Sevena »

Content removed,since I have previously had this discussion with Lovec.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

if new WW transform next full moon you have 1 month of time to befriend her.Sevena i would run to if somebody would change in front of me,but when i would start having strange body changes(senses, strenght,speed,...) i would probanly seek him out for help
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Terastas »

lovec1990 wrote:Terastas i agree with you on most points, but giving her illusion that she have a choice isnt right you need to give her real freedom of choices.
Best bet is becoming friend with her and tell or show her the truth. Dont stalk her because when she would belive you she will come too you for help
Well, by "the illusion," I mean to give her those choices, but to arrange it so that the choices you don't want her to take look bad by comparison.

In the at-home scenario, for example, I could let her walk right out the front door if she wanted to, but if I lived five miles away from the closest paved road or smack dab in the armpit of my region's murder capital, she'd be a lot more likely to come back inside than if I lived in suburbia. It wouldn't be about depriving her of her options so much as encouraging her to pick the good one. And if she's still insistent on walking out the door under those circumstances, so be it. Once the transition starts to wear down on her, she'll know where to find me again if she has to.

Same deal with the road scenario. I could offer to pull over and let her out if she wants, but she'd be more likely to decline the offer if that would mean pulling over into the breakdown lane than if it meant pulling into a Dunkin' Donuts. And even if she did want me to pull over on the freeway, the amount of time it would take for me to get from the passing lane over into the breakdown would still be enough time for me to get out "You want me to at least explain what the hell happened to you?" Again, I wouldn't be actively depriving her of options. I'd just be increasing the odds of her making a decision for herself in my favor.

So yes, that was a poor choice of words on my part.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Sevena »

Content removed,for same reasons as above.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

for responsability im gona say this one more time: im responsible for her becoming werewolf, but im not responsible for her actions and if she kills innocent person i might feel that i could be the couse for what hapened, but im not responsible for that.

and for secret thing lets face it sooner or later truth would come out and that already hapened, if it didnt we probably wouldnt be here.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Sevena »

Content removed, seemed to be changing the subject.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

ok, lets say im a danger too your kind sevena, what would you and your pack do ?

newly bitten isnt that much of a treath, if he/she is left alone.

offtopic:i newer said they are real as you and i sevena.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by WerewolfKeeper3 »

lovec1990 wrote:i need to ask WerewolfKeeper3 its not clear to me:


does trsnsformation hapen the same day she was bitten?
i'm not sure. i never read the original script {GASPS} yeah i know, i know. i was here more for the talk about werewolves.

2. If she was bitten on any night other then the full moon you have a few options:
- Force her to stay:
Pros: you can keep an eye on her at all times, you can try to explain what's going to happen, when, and why, and you can basically have as much control as possible over the situation
Cons: No ones perfect and it's liable she'll get an opportunity to escape; first chance she gets, she'll bolt, call someone etc. Last thing they need in this situation is a squadron of police showing up at their front door and having to explain why they're keeping a young girl prisoner. {This is assuming the safe house has a phone}. Even if it's the middle of the woods, she could still end up getting to a nearby road, as even a safe house would need some sort of get away plan/way to bring supplies or medical attention.
- Tail her
Pros: she's free to go, you can set up round the clock surveillance to keep track of her every move, and when the time comes, be there to act.
Cons: She's out among normal people; if the shift or a partial shift can occur during times of stress, this could prove disastrous. She could injure someone else and turn them. You might not be able to catch her as the shift occurs, or right afterwards. Most risky of them of all for other people.
- Try to explain what's going on
Pros: Should she believe you, she may end up staying willingly, which would mean the cons from the first two options would be avoided.
Cons: She most likely won't, and even if you do shift or she does believe you, she'll be scared out of her mind, especially if she realizes she's now one of them. Panic, wanting to escape, wanting to find a cure, thoughts of suicide, anger at the one who turned her, wondering if the American werewolf thing is going to happen to her, or if she kills the one who turns her will she become human again. etc. Most risky of all for her.
- Do Nothing
Pros: You wash your hands of her and not worry about it.
Cons: I don't have space to list them all. This one is an option, but not one you're likely to take.

Pretty much these?
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

nice description on options and theirs pros and cons. I would only consider one of those options:

- Try to explain what's going on
- Do Nothing
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Meeper »

Before I begin, a disclaimer, I'm rather ill right now, I'm seriously messed up in the head, and can barely think at all, unfortunately few people really understand that because I may well seem coherent, it's the grammar and punctuation and words made over thousands of years doing a damn fine job, not my brains at this time. So if this comes out as goofy or incoherent gobbledegook, then you'll know my existence for the past couple of weeks, in which case, sorry about that :) .
ABrownrigg wrote:This was started on another thread, but was suggested it be better placed here,.

Let me explain the scenario.

IN Freeborn.. Sherri, (like in the original movie script) is bitten accidentally.. by what she thinks is just a natural wolf.. she passes out from the attack.. but not killed.. The wolf in question panics and contacts some more experienced wolves to step in.

they carry her to their own safehouse.. and have a discussion on what to do with her. When she wakes up.. she's under the impression that she's been kidnapped.. screaming to be let go.

Dilemma.. holding someone against their will.. at least until they can explain to her what's going on.. What would you do? let her go without explaining? or hold her against her will until she knows the truth.
That's a bit of a blind siding question, considering your statement of fact that the rehearsal is fragmented in the video, so without knowing the finer details of who said/did what, in which order, and exact perceptions at play. I could speculate ad nauseam methods to resolve the crisis.

But to the basic question "Do we hold an unwilling bundle of unknowing latent freak-out captive or not?". Considering Sheerie's combative attitude and pretense of rights after the fact, it would have to involve a little tough love somewhere along the way, after all you did take her somewhere other than home or to a hospital via squad car or ambulance, that's not "Normal", what did you expect? Insta-Gratitude?

In the video, Sherrie proclaims Zane crazy and insane, how very fitting, but misdirected, the situation is crazy and insane, the "fact" enough people in the world would react negatively (become crazy and insane) to the idea of being a werewolf that their existence needs to be kept secret, which is the reason Sherrie doesn't know, won't believe, and is misapprehending with a view to running off to authorities to find out whether or not she was drug raped or whatever after being bitten by "someone's dog"? One "Criminal decision" born of "Criminal negligence" quite naturally in Sherrie's mind, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS!" (yeah, people and projecting their nightmares again, what can you do? There's always the possibility), not the "fact" of being a werewolf. That would be my key to keeping a lid on it if not just brute incarceration, Sherrie will find out soon enough, and you have till her first involuntary transformation to get her ready, willing or not.

How I'd deal with someone being bitten accidentally:
I don't know if it would turn out the right thing, but instead of taking Sherrie to a safe house, I'd let "normality" play out, arrange for her to be treated in hospital (your friend's a nurse right? Who can take care of Sherrie and avoid suspicious/anomalous test results getting undue attention), let the police do their job in investigating any criminal intent or negligence behind the "Dog/wolf attack", guard against vigilante mentality of witch hunting stray dogs or wolves as appropriate, and above all cultivate the trust/friendship, you've "Done the right thing" all up to the point of the transformation, by which time you are now hopefully her friend.

Your last act, help her through the transformation, that's when you hold her captive, but not by force, you hold her captive with the reasons why werewolves are secret, I mean look at her? She's transforming into a wolf! That's when you don't "Do the right thing" by taking her to the hospital, or involving the police, because my god you're a werewolf! And by the time the shift is through, that's probably the time when she can start to know everything, let it unfold, don't just trot out a bunch of facts, that would make it look like you set her up all this time and she might hate you for it, because till that point she thought you were human, you showed her kindness and trust as a human all the while she was turning into a wolf, hopefully, still a friend, not resentful you didn't tell her sooner, and hopefully not lusting for fame/glory/whatever endangering response might ultimately come of it.

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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

you are saying you are messed up in the head yet you post very good reply
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by JoshuaMadoc »

lovec1990 wrote:ok, lets say im a danger too your kind sevena, what would you and your pack do ?
Knowing your utterly stubborn personality and your lack of grasp of reality, the least most anyone would do to you as a danger to wolfdom is to have you beaten black and blue within an inch of your life.
newly bitten isnt that much of a treath, if he/she is left alone.
Haha. Wow. Okay. I suppose leaving alone a newly shifted werewolf who's POTENTIALLY MENTALLY UNSTABLE really isn't that much of a liability, no?

God forbid someone like you ever discovers that lycanthropy is finally possible and available.

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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

kitetsu wrote:
lovec1990 wrote:ok, lets say im a danger too your kind sevena, what would you and your pack do ?
Knowing your utterly stubborn personality and your lack of grasp of reality, the least most anyone would do to you as a danger to wolfdom is to have you beaten black and blue within an inch of your life.
beating someone doesnt work always and killing one is same risk as leaving troublemaker alone
newly bitten isnt that much of a treath, if he/she is left alone.
Haha. Wow. Okay. I suppose leaving alone a newly shifted werewolf who's POTENTIALLY MENTALLY UNSTABLE really isn't that much of a liability, no?

God forbid someone like you ever discovers that lycanthropy is finally possible and available.
thank you for trusting me.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by JoshuaMadoc »

lovec1990 wrote:thank you for trusting me.
Oh, the insult.

The only thing I'd trust you with is to be bait for zombies. You're the last dimwit I'd trust in handling the discovery of a lycanthropy device or virus, and if I ever get the virus first and you get any ideas on controlling me with your incredibly stupid definition of responsibility, I can't guarantee that you'd come home with a pair of feet to walk with, much less a jaw for eating food.

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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by ABrownrigg »

WOW.. such drama!

Enough with the personal jabs all around. Disagreements are part of the conversation. If we find a 'real' transforming werewolf to post here then we can ask him/her. Everything else is speculation, and based on what we 'think' werewolves would do in the real world today.

However, I will point out that the very disagreements here mirror the varied disagreements in the cast of the show.

Let it be stimulating, but keep it all in good debate style fun and realize we're all here for the good of reaching a point of view, whatever that view turns out to be (Even if it ends with agree to disagree). Joining this forum means you take your lumps, myself included. But lets keep it at lumps, and not a baseball bat. That includes passive agressive and open personal insults alike.

In other words, lets all be IRISH.. beat the hell out of each other with passion, but happy to share a beer after.

My personal view, is this conflict only illustrates what a hard decision it can be in any situation. And are there absolutes in 'every' situation, and what are the consequences if there are.. . and most importantly.. was it worth it in the long run.

(passes chocolate around)

For those that don't get that reference.. Chocolate is poisonous to dogs, but the werewolf in Freeborn.. well.. its still not great, but has a different.. effect... much like any poison can .. ahem.. when used in moderation.

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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by ABrownrigg »

And damnit.. where are the internal trolls?.. I've been looking for a reason to say.

Guys, we're wereWOLVES.. not wereTROLLS.

(waits patiently)

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