A Moral Dilemma

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Meeper »

ABrownrigg wrote:WOW.. such drama!
No no, you're doing it wrong, like this *clears throat...*

What's this ruckus?!

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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by ABrownrigg »

HEy you kids!! Get outta my green beans!!
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Sevena »

.
Last edited by Sevena on Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Meeper »

ABrownrigg wrote:HEy you kids!! Get outta my green beans!!
Who are you calling a kid?!?!?!?1?!?one?! You are a cad and a bounder sir. *buaps AB up side the head with a well aimed duckie* Take that! *buaps AB up side the head with another well aimed duckie* And that! And let that be a lesson to you.

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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by ABrownrigg »

*buaps AB up side the head with a well aimed duckie* Take that! *buaps AB up side the head with another well aimed duckie* And that! And let that be a lesson to you.
... Oohhh get in line.

AB
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Meeper »

ABrownrigg wrote:
*buaps AB up side the head with a well aimed duckie* Take that! *buaps AB up side the head with another well aimed duckie* And that! And let that be a lesson to you.
... Oohhh get in line.

AB
How dare you be cool calm and measured, it is no trivial matter, no wait, or is that no laughing matter? Oh heavens I'm forgetting my classic movie lines now, oh well, sorry about the trolls by the way, I'll try not to eat any more, I promise lck .

Anyways I've had enough for tonight, as I said I'm not well, time to bow out.

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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by ABrownrigg »

Meeper needs more cowbell.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Terastas »

lovec1990 wrote:for responsability im gona say this one more time: im responsible for her becoming werewolf, but im not responsible for her actions and if she kills innocent person i might feel that i could be the couse for what hapened, but im not responsible for that.
The werewolves in Inhuman would disagree. Because, if you hadn't given her lycanthropy, she wouldn't be capable of killing an innocent in such a way.

That doesn't necessarily mean they would consider you a murderer, but if you acted defiant or otherwise refused or neglected to do everything you could to stop the killer, they will likely talk to the werewolf responsible for you being a werewolf about whether or not it's time to kill you.

In a present day setting, anonymity should always be the most important thing for a werewolf, so any werewolf who infects without taking responsibility for their infected would be too severe a liability for them to tolerate. Take full responsibility for your infected or don't infect anyone. If you can't do either, you're accountable.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

if anonmity is imprtant so this means no killing because killing and anonxmity works only in books and movies, but in reality police will investigate and in modern days is easy too find evidence(witness,video fotage from ATM,Shoping mall,etc.) because not all WWs live close too woods some would live in city.

ok,you cannot force or tail newly bitten. If she wants too be teached i would take her under my wing then im responsible for her and her actions but bettween this point and point she was bitten my opinion stays: responsible for her becoming werewolf, but im not responsible for her actions and if she kills innocent person i might feel that i could be the couse for what hapened, but im not responsible for that.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Terastas »

lovec1990 wrote:if anonmity is imprtant so this means no killing because killing and anonxmity works only in books and movies, but in reality police will investigate and in modern days is easy too find evidence(witness,video fotage from ATM,Shoping mall,etc.) because not all WWs live close too woods some would live in city.
Police also aren't likely to have "werewolf" on their list of possible motives.

The werewolf they're targeting can't stay among witnesses or surveillance cameras 24/7 because they are just as much a danger to themselves as they are to the werewolves coming after them (What are you going to do when you have to shift? Do it with the cameras rolling?). Sooner or later, any werewolf who chose to be defiantly irresponsible would have to answer for it.

Because, really, would you be tolerant of any werewolf who went around infecting others, then when they started wreaking havoc said "Not my problem" and left you to deal with it? I doubt it.

As for the police, well, like I already said above, their first thought is not going to be that the victim was attacked by a werewolf, much less that they were attacked for being a werewolf. They're more likely to expect the motive to be money, criminal activity or personal affairs and start by interviewing the victim's family, friends and co-workers, as well as investigate their financial and/or criminal records for possible leads or motives.

The police would investigate all of these leads, and after they all turned up dead ends, would look into whether the victim owed money, had any bad habits like drugs or gambling, or was possibly involved in illegal activities like dealing or prostitution, all this long before they would consider anything more worthy of the big screen. And even then, the "big screen" theories they'd start with would be the ones more grounded in reality like a roving gang or a beginning serial killer. The case would be considered cold before they even started to consider the possibility of a Hollywood monster.

All this giving the werewolves ample time to cover their tracks and ensure that every member of the pack has an airtight alibi.

In Inhuman, the pack has two members that they usually call upon whenever somebody needs to be rubbed out. They prefer to have one of these two do it, not because they're good fighters or ruthless killers, but because they know how to stage a crime scene. One has access to resources that can make the victim's death look more like an accident or a botched criminal dealing, and the other one's specialty is Frank Westing: He goes in empty-handed, grabs whatever he can find on the scene and proceeds to bludgeon his target with it however long it takes for them to stop moving, making the scene look like a crime of passion as opposed to premeditated. Either way, the intent is to deliberately provide a false narrative to the police and give the werewolves as much time as possible to account for and conceal anything that might conceivably tie back to any one of them.

I can't imagine every pack of werewolves would have those kind of resources, but I imagine every pack out there would have one of two strategies when dealing with loose ends: Try to make them disappear, or try to make their deaths look like something else.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Fabricator »

ABrownrigg wrote:Dilemma.. holding someone against their will.. at least until they can explain to her what's going on.. What would you do? let her go without explaining? or hold her against her will until she knows the truth.
What I would, and would not do.

Put yourself in her place. You are attacked by a wolf and pass out. You wake up to find yourself in a house with your wounds dressed and are met with pleasant hospitality. It is explained to you that you were attacked by a wolf that has since been dealt with, and it was easier for them to attend to your injuries in their own home rather than take you to a hospital (how that part of the conversation would be composed, I am not entirely sure, but my wife is an RN, so it would be more convincing barring the question of medical knowledge if this were being dealt with by my pack). You feel good despite your wounds, thank them for their help, and go on your way, not knowing what you now are and will experience in a few days time. (Six days in Freeborn, if I'm not mistaken)

To let her go without explaining what has happened and what she will become is a careless decision. From what I understand about Freeborn werewolves in the brief (very brief) research that I have done, and what I've gotten out of the movie script, one that has been given the gift of being a werewolf does not experience any symptoms until a few hours before their first change. The hope that Sherri, or anyone for that matter, would come back to you before their first shift, looking for answers as to what really happened to her in the woods, other than simply being attacked by a wolf, is futile. I cannot imagine anyone in a somewhat sane sort of mind that would not lose their mind during their shift if the situation were not explained to them. To say they would go on a killing spree seems a bit much. I am having difficulty speculating what a person in that situation would do (should have paid more attention in psychology, I guess). But, the end result is always negative in this regard. You would have to hunt down and off this person as soon as possible due to the high risk of more unknowingly-turned surfacing, people being killed by a "large dog", and/or the exposing of werewolves to the general public. In all respects of the decision to simply let her go, I can only see this as a death sentence to her, and a lot of unnecessary trouble for you and your pack. Lastly, imagine the problems you would face with the Dowth due to the repercussions of this decision.

Now, back to the last line in the first paragraph- You feel good despite your wounds, thank them for their help, but your request to leave is denied. Your are told it would be best for you to stay a day or so just to be sure you are truly doing well (again, my wife would help make this more convincing if our pack were dealing with this). This makes sense, and you agree to stay overnight. The next day you are still denied leave, which would reasonably start to worry the average person. This time, you are told there was more to that wolf than met the eye, and it is imperative you stay in the house.

From here, any person would become defensive and range from simply being terrified of their "captors", to being absolutely physical and trying to charge their way out of the house. Any way it works out, this person is forced to stay either with or without help of other pack members. It would be best to let this person calm down a bit from their rage and terror, but the next approach would be to explain the true situation at hand, what they are, and what will happen in a few days time. A physical explanation is the best, and really the only truly believable one there is, just as Zane does in Freeborn. To shift in front of this person is what must be done.

In conclusion, holding someone against their will is the ideal choice. The trick is to make the time that the person is held against their will to be as short as possible. The idea of holding someone against their will, regardless of the reason behind it, does sound morally wrong, and I agree that it is. However, doing it in a positive way, as such in Freeborn, is actually morally right when considering the intent of the captor. It is for the person's safety and well being, not as a sick game or hostage situation.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Terastas »

If the idea is to keep the time they are held against their will as short as possible, why so much evading around the question? Wouldn't it be better to just come right out with it instead of expecting her to stay for two or three days without any answers?

Bandaging her wounds certainly sounds like a sound way to ensure she reads your intent more favorably (if the lycanthropic healing has already kicked in, you wouldn't really even need to know what you're doing), and she might buy your story about bringing her home and patching her wounds yourself being the more efficient course of action at first. Then she might start to wonder if, now that she's feeling better, she shouldn't check into the hospital for tests and vaccinations (which is the proper thing to do after being attacked by ANY kind of wild animal). She's not going to just accept your assurance that the wolf didn't have rabies.

If you want her to comply, she needs to hear at least the basics as soon as possible: That she was bitten by a werewolf, how long she has before she involuntarily transforms, and where to go before that happens. Even if she doesn't believe you at first, that should at least get her out of "I've been kidnapped!" mode and give you some time to explain some more to her.

Making her feel genuinely held against her will is counterproductive in the long term, so Priority A should be ensuring, either through convincing or compromising, that you have as much time with her when she awakes as possible. If she's willing to stay for five minutes, don't expect her to be willing to stay for five more and tell her what's going on immediately. If she insists on being let go immediately, offer to drive her home so you can tell her everything she needs to know in the car. And if you're concerned that she might plow right through you and go flying out the door ASAP, write a phone number with a note to call it ASAP and stick it in her pocket before she wakes up. She might give you all day, or she might give you only the amount of time it takes her to get from the back room to the front door, but whatever she gives you, do everything you can to make the most of it.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

Terastas i agree with your view, but your sounds like you talking for willingly turning her what about if you are new at this you know, practicing first change at will and you accidentaly infect her ?

because not all would react the same:
-some would stay with her
-some would run away because of panic,but when you will calm down they would return, but she would be gone
-some would call his/her pack mates or mentor for help
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Terastas »

lovec1990 wrote:Terastas i agree with your view, but your sounds like you talking for willingly turning her what about if you are new at this you know, practicing first change at will and you accidentaly infect her ?
You should still have to take responsibility for it. The pack should be willing to forgive a werewolf who pleads to them for help, but saying "Sorry, I goofed" does not automatically absolve someone of all responsibility.

Even dumb kids watching Qubo can tell you that going to an adult (or in this case, a senior pack mate) counts as being responsible. But there's a world of difference between admitting that you're in over your head and in desperate need of help, and declaring "Not my problem" and leaving them to handle it.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

Terastas wrote:
lovec1990 wrote:Terastas i agree with your view, but your sounds like you talking for willingly turning her what about if you are new at this you know, practicing first change at will and you accidentaly infect her ?
You should still have to take responsibility for it. The pack should be willing to forgive a werewolf who pleads to them for help, but saying "Sorry, I goofed" does not automatically absolve someone of all responsibility.

Even dumb kids watching Qubo can tell you that going to an adult (or in this case, a senior pack mate) counts as being responsible. But there's a world of difference between admitting that you're in over your head and in desperate need of help, and declaring "Not my problem" and leaving them to handle it.

as responsibility i was kinda looking from legal point of view. but you are right im responsible for her because i actualy destroyed her life and is on me too help her rebuild and change her life, but she should first forgive me for my mistake you know trust should work both ways. But im still thinking if she do something bad im not only to blaim because she is responsible for her actions, but im responsible because i didnt stop her from doing something bad.

but im still against kidnaping and tailing her because its wrong and unmoral.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Fabricator »

Terastas wrote:If the idea is to keep the time they are held against their will as short as possible, why so much evading around the question? Wouldn't it be better to just come right out with it instead of expecting her to stay for two or three days without any answers? If you want her to comply, she needs to hear at least the basics as soon as possible... Making her feel genuinely held against her will is counterproductive in the long term...
I was merely prolonging the explanation of the situation to fit in with the way it was set up in Freeborn. Directly attending to Brownrigg's question of the morality of holding someone against their will, in other words.

I agree that it would be better to explain her situation first thing. The scene in Freeborn shows Sherri being held against her will because the present pack were still discussing what should be done about her after she awoke. They had to keep her there until a decision was made. Therein lies the question of moral reasoning for forcing her to stay. It was in the best interests of the pack, as well as for her safety (you wouldn't want the other pack to take her in, after you let her go and teach her their bad habits, for instance). As I said before, Zane presented the situation to Sherri in what I think to be the best way, but I would expect my pack to have come up with a solution before she woke up to at least keep her calm while the necessary background checks were made. The question of what needs to be done about a person who has just been bitten by a werewolf is not something that should be slept on and decided in the morning after a cup of coffee. I would also expect pack law to have some guidelines to deal with this type of situation- it certainly wouldn't be the first time this has happened.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by ABrownrigg »

For this, I will give a little deeper explanation of the scene at hand.

******SEMI SPOILER ALERT****** But not really, as it's just the setup.







Sherri is accidentally bitten by a new werewolf who was out on his first voluntary shift.. lead by instincts still for the most part.. sherri upon seeing a wolf in the woods (WHAT APPEARS AS A NATURAL WOLF).. ran.. predator prey instincts told him to chase.. He did so.. she was bitten, but not killed.. he managed to control himself, shift back, and called for help (not his own pack).. but rather Zane and his group (young one didnt' want to get in trouble with his own pack and knew Zane was the bleeding heart type). Zane brought her in.. unconscious, injured (she could live or die).. He gave her a mild sedative to help her sleep as he called in the pack.. they got together while she slept (locked in seth's bedroom but asleep).. talked the situation over.. did all the research they could. Finally the decision was made, to let her in.... she's not a bad candidate, and not too many connections that would cause problems (save for a couple).

At the conclusion of the conversation Zane made his way to the bedroom to wake her up and let her know what's going on.. what bit her.. werewolves are real, what happened.. etc.

What zane does NOT know.. is Sherri woke up five minutes previous, alone and scared. Already assuming she was kidnapped, injured, and possibly dealing with a potential rape..

Then Zane opens the door to say "Sherri, wake up, we need to let you know what's going on"

instead, the door opened, and he caught a electric guitar to the face that sherri had gotten and hidden behind the door prepared to attack. THAT is when the screaming started.. Let me go.. etc. etc.. wanting to escape.. Zane never even got to say hello to her first.. it was immediately, just listen to me... her screaming, trying to fight trying to run.. hysterical..

she is HELD, for a grand total of about 10 minutes against her will, and zane after trying to explain things unsuccessfully finally decides the only way to get her to believe him, is to show her. ( a move he was trying to avoid to keep her from being utterly traumatized).. BUT, she's gotta know he's telling the truth.

Once he does.. well... lets just say her perspective is utterly altered.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Terastas »

Fabricator wrote:The scene in Freeborn shows Sherri being held against her will because the present pack were still discussing what should be done about her after she awoke.
Well that would be something she didn't need to know. You could tell her she was bitten by a werewolf but leave out the part about debating what to do with her.

I'm assuming "Put her out of her misery" is one of the possible options that, while none of them would want to do it, isn't exactly off the table either.

The newcomer being from a different pack would certainly complicate things, so in the scenario described, they could, if pressed, state that they "were discussing our options" and tell her a few things that make this situation more complicated for them than usual (namely the second pack that's being kept out of the loop). But the better course of action would be to drop all discussions about how to deal with her until they can be done in private. How she responds to being told the important things (that werewolves exist, that she's been bitten, etc.) will affect the outcome of that kind of conversation anyway.

As for not knowing she's awake. . . Well, this is why I would knock, ask if she's awake and ask if I can come in from the other side of the door first, but that's an honest mistake to make. But I do have to say that the questionable morality of holding someone against their will expires as soon as she physically attacks you. If she comes at you with anything that can be used as a weapon in Left 4 Dead 2, all bets are off -- do what you gotta' do.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

ABrownrigg now we know more info about scenario and there is noting unmoral here. But i personaly wouldnt wake up grab something and hit first one who comes trught door,if my wound was treated and i was sleeping in someones bedroom you could kinda see they helped you even if i wake up 1 hr sooner i would wait in bed for someone to come in.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Trinity »

ABrownrigg wrote:This was started on another thread, but was suggested it be better placed here,.

Let me explain the scenario.

IN Freeborn.. Sherri, (like in the original movie script) is bitten accidentally.. by what she thinks is just a natural wolf.. she passes out from the attack.. but not killed.. The wolf in question panics and contacts some more experienced wolves to step in.

they carry her to their own safehouse.. and have a discussion on what to do with her. When she wakes up.. she's under the impression that she's been kidnapped.. screaming to be let go.

Dilemma.. holding someone against their will.. at least until they can explain to her what's going on.. What would you do? let her go without explaining? or hold her against her will until she knows the truth.
Skimmed the other points briefly, but I want to answer this without having my thoughts too influenced. I' will poke at the other answers after this. :)


My thoughts on this are pretty simple. But they do bring up some questions -more technical for film composition and story-line flow honestly.

Waking up and being held against one's own will can go a number of ways. Mostly this depends on the intentions of those who are doing the holding, and the needs of the holding. These can give totally different impressions, from hostile and scarry to more benign and friendly.

What kind of impression do YOU want to give? How is this series going to feel? More like "being Human", or more like "wolf lake"? Could it be more scarry like the Jason movies with a lot of tension?

This scene is obviously VERY important because it sets the initial stage for what is going to follow. So I totally understand the conundrum you have going.

If there is an issue with the level of horror versus "cute and fuzzy" I would leave there an element of suspense. ie "How to cook humans (dinner)" book, kind of suspense. (If you don't get the reference I understand and will explain later if you want).

__
The next questions I have are:

How soon before she goes through her first transformation?
** The sooner the change is due, the more likely she will be retained w/out explanation.
** This would explain the need to be more physically restrained (handcuffs, tied down, chains, etc), if she was to change sooner then later. Otherwise it makes no real sense unless someone of the group is UBER paranoid that she'd run.
** This would make me, personally, more upset and frightened. More on edge. More wary and not trusting.

How upset are those involved?
** She may hear their raised voices in whole or in part during an argument over what to do with her.
** This would enhance the lack of trust in the others, especially if the words "we should just kill her and be done with it" we over heard - or something like it.
** Emotions feed on emotions. Negative emotions feed negative emotions. Having a more antagonistic character pushing for her "removal" would make things that much more frightening.

Is there a more matronly/fatherly character involved that could "ease the way"?
** This person could be in the room with her, tending to her wounds with a soft smile and a gentle touch. (So even if she over hears the argument, she has someone she could connect to and trust). (I even foresee said character leaving the room to chew out the others arguing and telling them to "take it outside", "we can hear you", and/or "don't scare her more then she is going to be" etc...)
** This gives her someone that acts as a "shield" and to have faith in.

This could go the way of Stephen's King's "Misery", or could be a lot less stressful (but suspicious) if she we patched up and let go (but later followed by others).


I have played far far far too many werewolf rpgs in my life, where secrecy is vital to survival. ^.^ LOL
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

you know they should search him/her and take away mobile phone because he/she could call 911 and then troubles could arise.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Kaged Tiger »

Is it really that hard of a question? You wait until she wakes up, and when she starts asking to be let go, you unlock the door or whatever, and while she's surprised that you did so, you start a conversation that moves into an explanation. Since you let her out when she asked you to, you weren't really holding her against her will so much as...relocating her while she wasn't aware. Most people would want to stick around after hearing about werewolves, so long as you provided proof quickly enough. There, problem solved.
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

Here i have a new moral question what if newly bitten is from foregin country(german turist in USA) would you still hold him against his will because i dont think he would stay a month here in USA?
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Uniform Two Six
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Uniform Two Six »

What's the difference? Dude just got turned into a werewolf. I think overstaying his visa is not real high on the list of sh*t going wrong that week.
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Volkodlak
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Re: A Moral Dilemma

Post by Volkodlak »

it is a diffrence hes gona want too goo home witch si far away and there is probability that he would be far less willing too work with his kidnapers
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