Limits on Interaction with the Human World?

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Limits on Interaction with the Human World?

Post by Faolan Ruadh »

Since this is one of the primary foci of Freeborn and a big source of narrative tension in much of werewolf media, I thought it might be interesting to ask:

In your conception, how extensive or limited would a werewolf's interaction with normal humans be? Could a werewolf continue to hold the job that he/she had as a human? To a certain extent, I'm sure that depends on the nature of the job. If not, how would a were or a pack support themselves? Often in books, at least one of the pack members is independantly wealthy. This takes care of several logistical problems, but it's highly improbable that every pack or even a majority of them will include a rich benefactor.

How would being a werewolf limit or change one's ability to interact socially with other humans, both random passersby and people that knew the were before his or her first shift?

I think it's likely that individual packs would set ground rules based on their specific circumstances and environment for the type and frequency of relations that pack members can have with non-weres to ensure the continued safety of the pack (and in some packs, as an instrument of social control). What might a sample of those rules look like?

I'm sure answers to these questions will depend on the exact ins and outs of shifting itself- when does it happen, to what extent is it controllable, and what biological and psychological "side-effects" are present in both forms?
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Post by Baphnedia »

Well, really, this is something that can be determined by the narrator. It is entirely feasible to exist and interact with normal humans as much as they normally would.

As for some humans, they just interact with a lot of pixels on a screen. Be it TV, the internet, or others on the internet. So, defining social interaction usually helps a bit.
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Post by Terastas »

The only career fields I imagine werewolf packs would discourage would be the entertainment field. Even local radio DJs have their occassional stalkers, and the last thing a werewolf should want is a bunch of cameras following him around.

We have covered employment pretty thouroughly in other topics, and there are pretty much two basic types of employment beneficial to the pack. The first is, obviously enough, a financial benefit, which is just any job that brings in a lot of money. The second would be a resource -- a job with special privileges beneficial to the pack. A police officer, for example, could have access to "crime scenes" or be able to alert the pack via cell phone about any "animal sightings" that come up on the CB. We could probably start an entire new thread brainstorming ideas of specific jobs that the pack could benefit from.

The big thing about social interaction before and after is the "does he know" factor. Regardless of how much a werewolf trusts an otherwise normal human being, having a motherload of a secret like knowing about the existence of werewolves -- nevermind actually being one -- would cause the werewolf to constantly ask questions. Does he suspect I'm hiding something? Does he suspect I'm a werewolf? If so, can I trust him? What if he's working with the enemy? Is he a hunter? If not, is he working with one?

Stuff like that. Regardless of wether said person is a hated co-worker or a loved one, wether they've just met or known each other their entire lives, that's a part of the human brain that's hard to turn off. And anyone that could turn off that part of their brain? Well, their a danger to the pack. I think the only restriction concerning social interaction wouldn't be how much you interact with someone, but how closely you interact with someone. Love makes people do crazy things, as I'm sure we'll find out when Freeborn hits theatres.

Something you might not have thought about, however, is how much pack members are allowed to interact with each other. If you think about it, if people start to see the pack members together all the time, they will eventually begin to wonder what the relation is. If a werewolf is positively identified by one, his closest family and friends become suspect. In that sense, it might be beneficial to have some friends outside the pack -- a few dead ends to keep the hunter(s) busy and force them to ask themselves if this really is their man. If they identify a second person with "werewolf-related" behavior, then they aren't as likely to move on.
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Sounds right!

Post by RedEye »

Call them Smooth if they are friend, Call them Fur if they shift, together they are the Kindred.
Each acts as a layer of protection for the other.
SmoothKin are the people that mix with the Were's and provide the false trails, and FurKin make sure the SmoothKIn are safe.

Guess what I'm working on.... :lol: :lol:
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Re: Limits on Interaction with the Human World?

Post by MoonKit »

Faolan Ruadh wrote:
Often in books, at least one of the pack members is independantly wealthy.
It seems youve been reading the same books as me. :D Ive noticed that too.

But I think werewolves should be able to keep down a normal job. I think they might shy away from jobs that are too human though. I think they would perfer outdoor jobs or jobs where they arent cramped up in cubicles and meetings all day.

But I think they would socialize with normal humans less. They would have to worry about giving themselves away even with small habbits like a strong connection with animals or their large appetite.
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Post by FoxOfWar »

Let's see.
Something from the top of my head.
1.)No were is ever allowed to befriend a known 'hunter', even if said person was a best friend before one's 'wereness'. No connections there, no compromises. If a were's friend is found to be a hunter, the situation may be more complicated, though; suddenly dropping all communication with said friend would arouse suspicions without a doubt.

2.) I'd say that the "being on public"-rule very much depends how much said were can control his/her transformations. Elder, those that can be absolutely sure of their shifts can be on anywhere public almost without worry, seeing as they don't shift by accident. Something more inexperienced could very well do.

3.) There would then be those that should be under control by force. Those that are known for their "secretkeeping" in their life before should be forced upon the known choice: keep it a secret or cease to exist in human world. The latter choice of course would yield to living somewhere far from human society, causing at least to some people learning to shut up the hard way. Others... I think we all know those.

4.)Socialicing with humans should be kept upon certain standards, if said were continues to lead a human life: having at least few non-were friends to keep hunters at bay, but also limit the amount of human friends so that one doesn't slip out something that shouldn't be said on the wrong place.
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Post by Morkulv »

I think that werewolves can interact with the human world, but they don't, just because they don't have any reason to do it. Human-form aside, that is.
Scott Gardener wrote: I'd be afraid to shift if I were to lose control. If I just looked fuggly, I'd simply be annoyed every full moon.
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Post by MoonKit »

Morkulv wrote:I think that werewolves can interact with the human world, but they don't, just because they don't have any reason to do it. Human-form aside, that is.
Exactly! What more do you need when you have pack? And a body to hunt with?
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Post by JoshuaMadoc »

MoonKit wrote:
Morkulv wrote:I think that werewolves can interact with the human world, but they don't, just because they don't have any reason to do it. Human-form aside, that is.
Exactly! What more do you need when you have pack? And a body to hunt with?
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The KKK has a thing against afro-americans and colored people.

There was a story about how a muslim arab man killed his own daughter with a shotgun for marrying a christian.

A werewolf community is bound to have something similar. If you want something more plausible, then i would strongly recommend looking away from situations more fitting to deadpan sitcoms and cartoons.
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Post by Terastas »

kitetsu wrote:The KKK has a thing against afro-americans and colored people.

There was a story about how a muslim arab man killed his own daughter with a shotgun for marrying a christian.

A werewolf community is bound to have something similar. If you want something more plausible, then i would strongly recommend looking away from situations more fitting to deadpan sitcoms and cartoons.
Every demograph has their one or two lunatics. Not all white people are in the KKK and not all Muslims are extreme enough to kill their own daughter.

A werewolf community would be similar in that they would have their ocassional troublemakers. One thing that might come with lycanthropy is a superiority complex -- the whole "we are the predators, they are the prey" deal. Of course, that kind of behavior would not be tolerated because, regardless of how many humans a werewolf could kill in one sitting, the werewolves are still outnumbered ten million to one. I therefore think that, while no werewolf pack would be without a troublemaker every now and then, they would never allow enough of them to come together in great enough numbers that could be threatening, both to the pack and the local human communities.
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Post by ELÄIN »

[A werewolf community would be similar in that they would have their ocassional troublemakers. One thing that might come with lycanthropy is a superiority complex -- the whole "we are the predators, they are the prey" deal. Of course, that kind of behavior would not be tolerated because, regardless of how many humans a werewolf could kill in one sitting, the werewolves are still outnumbered ten million to one. I therefore think that, while no werewolf pack would be without a troublemaker every now and then, they would never allow enough of them to come together in great enough numbers that could be threatening, both to the pack and the local human communities.]

I agree... Werewolfs are still part human, they would be smart enough to not threaten their live and the human world even if a delima arises.. they would try to handle the situation that would benefit both sides.. and not expose them.[/quote]
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Thinking a bit...

Post by RedEye »

Werewolves would have reason to be "friendly" with some non-Were's simply for self protection and self interest. In some areas (way, way out there) they might barter protection and security for food and some basic comforts. Just because they're big, toothy, and fierce doesn't mean they are all "Survival Guys"...One could easily imagine some Were's comfortably installed in a warm cabin while a Snowstorm rages outside.
They may be Big and Tough, but unless their intelligence dumps when they shift, inside is better than outside in Blizzard conditions. They aren't dumb...If there's a Human offering Habitation during the Storm, most Were's would likely take it, and be polite about it. These are People no matter how Big, Hairy and Toothy they become.

There's another consideration here as well. Were's would be vulnerable to threats from Space... not Martians, but Orbiting Surveillance Satellites, that are good enough to see Were's from 250 miles out and determine their gender. Realistically, in such a situation, Werewolves would have three basic paths to choose from.
1> Give up any outside stuff at all. Only puts off the inevitable.
2> Try to intimidate the Military who put these satellites up there into leaving them alone. Fat chance: can you say Conscripted for Life?
3>Slowly, carefully, start to Come Out. Maybe use an Earthquake, or Flood, or Hurricane as a method to appear as Heroic Rescuers that really aren't as bad as the movies say they are and Hey, Human, got some spare change? Really, If they have the smarts, use the Media to get some good press...Like maybe a Movie about how mis-understood they really are...
OOPS!
Fact is: If they existed, they'd have to be figuring some Entry strategy to keep from becoming extinct...the envelope of Privacy is getting rather small, and you really Can be watched by Satellites. They would have to either disappear (never shift, never be what they really are) or mix (not blend) in.
If they existed, they'd probably have started the process years ago. They'd have to overcome a lot of negative press. The worst part is...they would literally have no choice. In another 20 years, Privacy for the most part won't exist.
For their part, I'm glad they're legends...they wouldn't like the way things are going, and there is no way to stop it. It's gonna be hard enough for us... and we're real.
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Post by Terastas »

The thing about satellites is that, while they do indeed exist, I seriously doubt they were put up there to look for werewolves. Something like that would only become an issue if the local werewolves had not only been exposed, but had actually done enough damage to put the area on high alert. Even then, spy satellites would be the chip off the iceberg of their problems.

I do agree, however, that some humans can be trusted. It would hardly be farfetched to assume a pack could have "familiars" -- uninfected humans dedicated to the preservation of the pack.

And you're also right that no pack could possibly stay hidden forever. It's Murphy's Law -- anything that can go wrong will go wrong.

The only thing is that I don't think werewolves would be able to just pick one event to expose themselves to the entire world. They could play the occassional hero every now and then, but only if they could be gone before anyone but the person their saving could get a good look at them. Eventually the "unconfirmed werewolf hero" stories might accumulate to the point where the concept starts to catch on to the point that A) Hollywood starts making more werewolf hero movies than horror movies, and B) Other werewolves elsewhere start doing the same thing. Still, that's a really big If.

The more likely scenario is that a pack would gradually increase their numbers and their influence until they and their human allies were numerous enough to make up their own community. From there they could potentially start associating with the neighboring communities and, if they played their cards right, their community could wind up becomming a sort of Halloween vacation spot (sort of like Salem MA, only with a werewolf theme instead of witchcraft). But again, that's a long and delicate process, and one that could easily be blown in an instant if they were ever for a moment careless.

What I think they'd have to do is just jokingly tell outsiders that it's a werewolf town but never actually let anyone see someone in werewolf form. Again, you could compare it to what happens with Salem -- few people actually believe in witches, but just about everybody calls it the City of Witches anyway, and though few people in Salem actually practice witchcraft, a lot of people claim to in jest. A werewolf community could potentially integrate themselves into human society if they could maintain a similar presentation. Most people will as in shock as they would if they'd seen them on the very first day, but I imagine a lot of said people will also calm down once they realize they've known this was Werewolf Town for ten years already.

But again, that's a very big If.
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Post by Kirk Hammett »

If I were a werewolf, Id probably not live in a pack, but perhaps another werewolf (husband) and maybe children, as a small 'pack'. So I'd have to set my own rules. I think it depends on how much it affects you in real life. I'd live somewhere where I could also run. There'd be much planning.

If you take the full moon scenario, you'd have to hide out for three days each month, or one if thats what you prefer to write about.

I don't like the full moon one all that much, so perhaps emotional training might stop unwanted shifts, or training as a pup.

At-home internet jobs would be ideal, or complete during the day jobs for 'full moon sufferers'. If your werewolf is always craving meat (mine never do but thats my stories, so I differ here) then the butchers or any food place is out. If they are aggressive (again I differ; mine depend on their human personality which comes out in the wolf instincts, such as dominance, submissiveness, passiveness, aggressiveness, lone or pack) then perhaps no sports for them or high stress business jobs.

Theres a lot of directions you could go but usually I think mine can keep their jobs, there'd be slipups on wolf behaviour, perhaps, but it depends in my stories on the person before they were bitten, or the hereditary werewolf's personality. They would be able to interact with people but may feel bored having to keep a secret; this may affect friendships or it may not. Their senses would be funny if they were 'first time bitten', they'd have to get used to it and not make fools of themselves in public or be too supernaturally good at hearing secrets not meant to be heard!

For me, food cravings are not my thing, humans crave pretty badly too, so I don't see a difference there, though they may hunt as a wolf and may take livestock. I don't like making mine human eaters as wolves don't go after human flesh under natural circumstances and I like to put some realistic wolf instincts in. I know wolves are carnivorous but they're also human too and we are (except vegetarians like me haha) omnivores.

There'd be shift triggers of course, there has to be SOME conflict for me! :lol: This is only what I might write though. No right or wrong. Wish I could be bothered finishing a story to publish, but mine are always weird stories with lots of 'non cliche' things, like my music in a way; people steer away from this a lot I've noticed. Heh.

Eh lost my train of thought multi tasking on some other music site. 8) Never mind me.
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Post by Uniform Two Six »

Terastas wrote: A werewolf community would be similar in that they would have their ocassional troublemakers. One thing that might come with lycanthropy is a superiority complex -- the whole "we are the predators, they are the prey" deal. Of course, that kind of behavior would not be tolerated because, regardless of how many humans a werewolf could kill in one sitting, the werewolves are still outnumbered ten million to one. I therefore think that, while no werewolf pack would be without a troublemaker every now and then, they would never allow enough of them to come together in great enough numbers that could be threatening, both to the pack and the local human communities.
Even that might be going too far. The typical human response to someone doing something that is threatening to the greater community is to put one's head down and hope that the problem goes away or solves itself, not confront it directly. As long as the threat is not DIRECTLY aimed at the person in question, that person is not terribly likely to want to get involved (If you ever get mugged in the city, yell "FIRE!", not "HELP!". Same principle.). Unless the werewolf community in question is sophisticated enough to have a squad of.... Um, let's call them "operational security consultants", a group of weres whose job it is to teach troublemakers subtlety, it's likely that the superiority complex people would continue to do their thing. Yeah, it's irrational to ignore something that has a certain probability to turn around and bite oneself on the posterior, but human beings are generally irrational creatures. If you think otherwise, work in retail for a week... you'll see. Yeah, every society has its fruitcakes and "type-A" personalities, but society doesn't seem to put much of a priority on stopping that kind of thing either. Thus, the KKK isn't in the mainstream of society, but I think it would be a safe bet that it won't be going away anytime soon.

On the other hand, the assumption would be that werewolves are few in number, and that their society would be of a more "primitive" clan, or tribal sort of organization. Smaller societies often utilize social penalties as a means of generating compliance from troublemakers. Thus shunning and threats of being cast out are most often used in such societies. In the vastly larger modern society, this kind of thing is meaningless, since it is unlikely you would actually know more than a tiny percentage of the people living within a mile of your residence. But, in a small community (of say, werewolves) the threat of simple disapproval of one's peers can be incredibly persuasive. So even the "I'm the ultimate predator" kind of jerk werewolf might still be cowed into submission by some of the others in the community getting together and basically saying "hey! Knock it off! We mean it!" Ultimately though, it would require the werewolves to be somewhat more proactive about things in general than humans typically are.
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Post by Rhuen »

Like everything else this too depends on the type of werewolf.

I can forsee different breeds living in very different ways. from nomadic clans whose mentality is a bit psychotic.
to those who can hold normal human jobs, or are limited on hourse or need certain days off. (due to transformations)

I can't see anything too public.

Or you may have some that choose not to interact with societies at all and live out in the wilderness like mountains, swamps, or deserts. Maybe able to live off the land and occasionally go into town but really need to.

as for finances, if you want to make fun of the old cliche of them being wealthy you could have something silly like them shacking up in an old gold mine that still has gold in it :howl:  :oo :P

Or doing odd jobs.

a werewolf that appeared for one episode in Outlaw Star worked as a Mafia sendicate enforcer, but that's in a world with magic, science, androids, and aliens so is not really a mainstream example for this genre.
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Re: Limits on Interaction with the Human World?

Post by Volkodlak »

ok,

In my point of view WW can interact with humans as long as he keeps his secret to himself, because if you suddenly stop interacting with humans your former human friends would suspect something and they could explore why you are closing all ties with them its noting weirder that being best friends and another day he breaks friendship with you.

How much interaction would there be thats depend on WW some will not interact much with human others will go too parties and visit clubs regualy

as for job i would avoid jobs like soldier or police officer,because this jobs could trigger the shift fast, but for other jobs it depends on how your TF trigger works in my view if coworker is getting on your nerves you will get two warnings too get your emotions under control if you cant you better leave because when TF starts it cannot be stoped.
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Re: Limits on Interaction with the Human World?

Post by Uniform Two Six »

First off, I would agree that soldier or cop would be a bad career choice for a werewolf -- and not just because it would lead to confrontational situations that might provoke a shift. What happens if the guy gets assigned to work a shift that coincides with the full moon?

As for the pack limiting a werewolf's interaction with humans, there's a more profound issue here, I think: How exactly does the pack do this? Unless they're going to have one of them watching him all the time, this sort of thing becomes rather complex to enforce. Couple that with the emotional issues that telling a new werewolf that he now has to sever all ties to virtually everyone that he has ever known or cared about. Frankly, I think that a pack would have better things to worry about than if a new member is going to start blabbing to everyone he knows that he's not human anymore. Seriously, as an analogy, look at gay people. How many have fallen into massive depression or even committed suicide over their desire to keep everyone they know in the dark about their little secret? How many are absolutely committed to making sure that everyone knows that they're into something that a huge percentage of the population (still, even in the 21st century) finds socially unacceptable?
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Re: Limits on Interaction with the Human World?

Post by Volkodlak »

Uniform Two Six wrote:First off, I would agree that soldier or cop would be a bad career choice for a werewolf -- and not just because it would lead to confrontational situations that might provoke a shift. What happens if the guy gets assigned to work a shift that coincides with the full moon?
in my view this would be a problem if werewolf TF is triggered by full moon in my view after 2-3 forced full moon TFs they can change at will,but during full moons trigger is just more sensitive than usual, inform them of your absence for next two full moons.

as for second part you are right.
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Re: Limits on Interaction with the Human World?

Post by Chris »

Uniform Two Six wrote:First off, I would agree that soldier or cop would be a bad career choice for a werewolf -- and not just because it would lead to confrontational situations that might provoke a shift. What happens if the guy gets assigned to work a shift that coincides with the full moon?
There's also that people in such jobs are prone to serious injury. Presuming contact with blood can transmit lycanthropy, any job with risks of getting shot, cut, and other such injuries could lead to a lot of accidental infections.
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Re: Limits on Interaction with the Human World?

Post by Volkodlak »

Chris wrote:
Uniform Two Six wrote:First off, I would agree that soldier or cop would be a bad career choice for a werewolf -- and not just because it would lead to confrontational situations that might provoke a shift. What happens if the guy gets assigned to work a shift that coincides with the full moon?
There's also that people in such jobs are prone to serious injury. Presuming contact with blood can transmit lycanthropy, any job with risks of getting shot, cut, and other such injuries could lead to a lot of accidental infections.
and you forgot healing because if werewolf heal faster than normal human it could rise suspicion.
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Re: Limits on Interaction with the Human World?

Post by Uniform Two Six »

lovec1990 wrote: and you forgot healing because if werewolf heal faster than normal human it could rise suspicion.
*shrug* Eh... It's a concern, I'll grant, but not in the top ten, really. If he gets shot, he can just shrug and say that he took it in the vest (whether he did or not). If he gets cut or whatever, he can always say that none of the blood is his, and that he must have gotten it off the suspect that he just spectacularly face-planted into the asphalt -- Er, I mean, 'used the minimum level of force necessary to gain compliance'...
:evil:
No, I'd think the infection risk, and the 'RAAAAAAAARGH!!! HULK SMASH!!!' scenarios would be higher on the list of concerns, and getting stuck on graveyard-shift during a full moon would be at the top.
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Re: Limits on Interaction with the Human World?

Post by Volkodlak »

its nice we have difrent views.

actually in my opinion there is no infection risk if werewolf is in human form at all, but for wound you got shot they treat your gunshot wound and lets say human would heal in 2 months, but you heal completly in 1 month i dont know about you, but if i was a doctor i would be suspicius.
Uniform Two Six wrote:No, I'd think the infection risk, and the 'RAAAAAAAARGH!!! HULK SMASH!!!' scenarios would be higher on the list of concerns, and getting stuck on graveyard-shift during a full moon would be at the top.
can you explain this please?
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Re: Limits on Interaction with the Human World?

Post by Chris »

lovec1990 wrote:can you explain this please?
A job where you're forced to work on a full moon night would be a problem because you risk revealing yourself as a werewolf -- perhaps you're more prone to changing if you can't keep focus, or it's easier for you to be angered or scared into changing unexpectedly. Serious problems for high risk jobs that induce a lot of fear, anxiety, or injury/pain in public places (though it's still a problem even for seemingly calm jobs, because there's always the risk in life that the unexpected may happen, and perhaps that something may trigger a change). Plus, even if you somehow manage to avoid being seen and becoming the next big news story, most employers won't appreciate your sudden disappearance, which, if they're even interested in an explanation, you'd have to lie to them about.
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Volkodlak
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Re: Limits on Interaction with the Human World?

Post by Volkodlak »

chris thank you for explaining. as for danger of shifting in my view you will get warnings that you are close to TF so you will know that you need to calm down.
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