Durability vs regeneration

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Volkodlak
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Durability vs regeneration

Post by Volkodlak »

Greetings,

i was kinda thinking what is better having more durable body vs fast healing so here i found possitives and negatives of each:

Regeneration:
+Wounds heal fast so you can fight at your best again
+Pain dissapears as quickly as wound does
-people can become suspicious that something is not right like: healing clearly broken leg in 5 min or 24 hours.
-you can be injured as easy as other humans

Durability:
+You take less damage than people without increased durability
+people are less suspicious if you fall from height and not broke any bones or knife couse smaller wound
-more injuries means you will lose capability too fight at fullest of your capabilities
-pain will persist untill wound heals

So whats better be able too take less damage(Durability) or take damage but heal faster(regeneration) or something in between?
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

Post by Uniform Two Six »

Regeneration would be my personal preference, but again... That assumes a whole bunch of stuff that might not actually shake out. The Patricia Briggs novels actually played with regeneration being magnificently powerful -- but a magnificent pain in the a** too. What would it be like if regeneration meant that you healed exactly like a human does only faster? It would mean that bullets might not be able to kill you (as easily at any rate) since you won't be as likely to bleed to death, but it also means that digging the offending foreign object out before it gets buried in scar tissue is vitally important. Worse, what happens if a broken leg heals too fast and winds up healing wrong (as can happen in humans if a limb is not properly set first -- and even sometimes when it is)? In the Patricia Briggs novels, there's a scene where a werewolf gets pinned between a car and a guard-rail and his pelvis is crushed. He spends the rest of the day with packmates wielding sledgehammers re-breaking his mal-formed pelvis and systematically resetting the various pieces.

Ouch.

Regeneration or durability? I would vote both. :evil:
Last edited by Uniform Two Six on Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

Post by Volkodlak »

^^Well your regeneration issues were nicely displayed in Twilight when Jacob broke ribs witch had too be broken again too be set propetly and i agree with you. I was asking this question becouse most of the time we talked just about regeneration, but durability witch would work better for werewolf that wants too remain hidden its easier too explain why you take less damage compared too healing something too fast. As for mixing durability with regeneration i belive they should cancel eachother out example:
1.)
-fast regeneration
-no increased durability
2.)
-medium fast regeneration
-medium increased durability
3.)
-no regeneration
-increased durability

my view why this would happen is if body is more durable its also harder and/or more time comsuming too fix so more durable the body is more time will be needed too fix it. As for my pick its same as yours regeneration and durability mixed
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

Post by Uniform Two Six »

Well, I don't see durability and regeneration as being somehow mutually exclusive -- I think of shapeshifting and regeneration as being very strongly related (a werewolf can regenerate because it's a shapeshifter, in other words). So, if a werewolf (even one with a massive advantage in durability over a human) can shapeshift from a human to a wolf, then in my mind any injuries (pretty much no matter how severe they may be) should be able to be regenerated in the same amount of time or probably less.

Now admittedly, I don't have as much issue with werewolves being overpowered as some on the board, so... I sort of like the image of a werewolf getting a baseball bat smashed across his back, and just turning around and glaring at his attacker, looking annoyed. While at the same time, if someone else whips out with a gun and shoots him, he just shrugs that off too since he knows he'll just heal that.

The point that I should have made (at least more clearly) was that regeneration would be utterly awesome -- but only if as I've imagined it. If it's got all sorts of not-immediately-obvious drawbacks, then its awesome-ness is much reduced. The way I imagine it is that regeneration includes a greatly increased pain tolerance. Pain is the biological survival mechanism to avoid injury. In a shapeshifter with regeneration, the biological imperative to avoid injury is simply not there (or at least severely reduced). So, getting shot or having a finger bitten off would merely be mildly uncomfortable. Only wounds caused by silver (or anything else that would inhibit regeneration -- fire in some folklore, for instance) would actually hurt.
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

Post by Volkodlak »

Uniform Two Six wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:51 pm Well, I don't see durability and regeneration as being somehow mutually exclusive -- I think of shapeshifting and regeneration as being very strongly related (a werewolf can regenerate because it's a shapeshifter, in other words). So, if a werewolf (even one with a massive advantage in durability over a human) can shapeshift from a human to a wolf, then in my mind any injuries (pretty much no matter how severe they may be) should be able to be regenerated in the same amount of time or probably less.
i kinda see it if body is more durable it means its also harder too heal so regeneration will have harder work so it would be slower plus in my view werewolf does regenerate just not so fast as you would like it plus cannot regenerate lost limbs they heal 2 times faster than human just there is no scaring at all but it still takes time for scar too disappear, but slow regeneration is coupled with increased durability witch make werewolfs body three times toughter than humans body.
Uniform Two Six wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:51 pm Now admittedly, I don't have as much issue with werewolves being overpowered as some on the board, so... I sort of like the image of a werewolf getting a baseball bat smashed across his back, and just turning around and glaring at his attacker, looking annoyed. While at the same time, if someone else whips out with a gun and shoots him, he just shrugs that off too since he knows he'll just heal that.
Well in my opinion werewolf would be able too strug off baseball bat across his back but it would still hurt alittle, but well placed hit into head would hurt becose nose is quite sensitive not too mention eyes, but struging off bullets from sidearms(9mm, etc...) but not high caliber like 50 cal for short priod yes but sonner or later werewolf will felt the shot in 95% gunshot would not be life threatening, but if werewolf is hit in leg it could limit his mobility.
Uniform Two Six wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:51 pm The point that I should have made (at least more clearly) was that regeneration would be utterly awesome -- but only if as I've imagined it. If it's got all sorts of not-immediately-obvious drawbacks, then its awesome-ness is much reduced. The way I imagine it is that regeneration includes a greatly increased pain tolerance. Pain is the biological survival mechanism to avoid injury. In a shapeshifter with regeneration, the biological imperative to avoid injury is simply not there (or at least severely reduced). So, getting shot or having a finger bitten off would merely be mildly uncomfortable. Only wounds caused by silver (or anything else that would inhibit regeneration -- fire in some folklore, for instance) would actually hurt.
well you cannot get just positives you also get drawbacks. As for pain even increased durability could increase pain tolerance as for finger loss in my view lost limb is lost if surgen does not reattach it.
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

Post by Uniform Two Six »

Volkodlak wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:18 pm As for pain even increased durability could increase pain tolerance...
Yes and no. Pain is generally associated with injury. So a blow that is unlikely to cause injury is probably not going to be all that painful. In that sense getting hit with a baseball bat is going to be less painful for a werewolf (with enhanced durability) than for a human -- primarily because it's going to injure the human far more extensively. For the werewolf it's going to feel more like he just got hit with a wiffle-bat. It's not that the werewolf can't feel pain as much as the human, but rather that the pain-stimulus itself will be less. If the same degree of injury were sustained by the werewolf and the human, (for instance, the human falls down a flight of stairs while the werewolf gets hit by a train -- and BOTH wind up with a broken leg) then the pain would rationally be the same.

With regeneration, I can see a justification for the werewolf to have a greatly increased pain tolerance -- as injury is far less of survival concern than for the human.
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

Post by Volkodlak »

^^ Well, I see durability and regeneration being mutually exclusive so just regeneration is bad lets say other werewolf yanks your arm it would rip it off becouse of their strenght and your normal durability plus regeneration will just heal the wound and not create new arm.Your train and stairs comparison is kinda too severe but you are right both human and werewolf will feel same pain if they broken their leg just that werewolf will need quite bigger force too break his bone.
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

Post by Meeper »

Well you two have done a fine job hitting points I would have raised.

I will draw a distinction between healing and regeneration. Regeneration is the regrowing and complete restoration of a missing or severely damaged part beyond the realm of healing, while healing is the repair of a damaged part, which can be regarded as a sub-set to regeneration, but not the same thing. I know that in the religious "Jesus "healed" the impossibly sick" sense of the word healing might imply forms of regeneration, but I don't buy into that in this case :P .

So, in my book, regeneration implies that missing or mangled body parts like severed tendons and broken bones have mechanisms to reset deformities as well.

Scarring is an interesting thing, it's been a while since I studied the function of scarring, but it is not outside the realm of possibility that regeneration with integral fast healing that does not cause scarring, and so issues like digging out bullets is less of an immediate problem than fighting against the tide of self closing surgical incisions.

In the end, regeneration can be seen as a form of durability. Personally I'd call regeneration "resilience", the ability to sustain an injury that is less likely to cripple. Whatever mechanisms are at work will spawn new threads of tissue to bridge gaps between severed soft tissues, and encapsulate and realign bone breaks, giving some structural stability to the body as it is sustaining injury, and the ability to keep moving during the healing process. Both of these I see as an inherent requirement to make shape shifting possible, so you kind of get the injury resilience for free into the bargain. In fact I'm on record as likening the level of physical disruption caused by the typical werewolf transformation, to having your body mangled in a train wreck or car crash.

Okay, brain fried. That's it for now. Fun threads these. :D
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

Post by Volkodlak »

^^ meeper so in a way Healing and regeneration are similar stuff just that regeneration is next level of healing. Still i would not say regeneration is form of durability becouse regeneration asures that damage taken is quickly and completly repaired while durability assures you take less damage from same attack.
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

Post by Meeper »

Well if you look at the etymology of the word "regenerate", it is re-generate, re (to do something again) and "generate" (to cause the genesis, or creation of something). Healing repairs the damage to something that has already been generated. So regeneration is not really a more advanced form of healing, the healing part would be stemming blood loss, reinforcing bone where it had been broken, etc, after which a new part or replacement tissue mass can be re-generated. But I take your point, to all intents and purposes, regeneration and healing are closed enough related to be near as dammit synonymous.

As for the distinction from durability, I did choose a different word, "resilience". Resilience may not have been the right word, but I did explain what I meant. On one hand you have durability, the ability to remain unchanged, and then what I was referring to, the ability to tolerate damage, rather than simply not get damaged in the first place. Specifically the werewolf's body will need to sustain what could be described as an injury every time it transforms from human form to wolf form or vice-versa. If you had durability, the same durability that prevents injuries will also prevent transformation.

On the other hand, the ability to tolerate the rigors and "damage" of having your bones change shape, something that bone is inherently resistant to (in other words, bone is highly durable against changing its shape), is more essential to the ability to transform, and by happy coincidence, should help make the body more tolerant of non transformation related injuries as well.

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Re: Durability vs regeneration

Post by Volkodlak »

Meeper wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:37 pm Specifically the werewolf's body will need to sustain what could be described as an injury every time it transforms from human form to wolf form or vice-versa. If you had durability, the same durability that prevents injuries will also prevent transformation.
I will kinda dissagree here in my view transformation does not couse damage too uninjured werewolfs body, but injured could have problems, but if wounds are severe he could not change so durability does not prevent transformation, but it helps preventing uninjured werewolf from being injured by transformation.In my view its better to not get damaged compared to being able to tolerate damage better than normal human, besides if you take no damage you do not need too tolerate it.

On your last statment about bones: Yes i agree, but werewolf will need to have ability too change bones shape and size otherwise no TF.
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

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Well, shapeshifting doesn't necessarily cause damage exactly, but how is a full-body transformation any different from regeneration? :?
Like, you're generating structures that weren't there before, or more accurately taking existing structures and generating new ones from them -- literally "re-generation". Now, I disagree with Meeper that regeneration and healing are different things -- they're not, not at the basic level at least. (As a semantic, "healing" generally refers to what regeneration is and does but limited in degree.) But, shapeshifting is regeneration -- or at least close enough to make little distinction. If one can grow a tail or a muzzle, how is reforming a broken bone any different?
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

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Uniform Two Six wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:36 pm Well, shapeshifting doesn't necessarily cause damage exactly, but how is a full-body transformation any different from regeneration? :?
I see two ways to do shape shifting:

1) Grow (or generate, not necessarily re-generate) parts (the presumption I have is that if you can generate new parts, for example paw pads, which humans don't have, then in theory you can regenerate these parts if they become damaged/injured, and thus heal them would you say? I'm still playing with this idea, heh.).

2) Restructure existing parts: This can be seen as an injury to the structure of the original existing part, but the net result for a werewolf is presumably a highly functional deformity. I personally still see it as an injury to the original part during the transformation process by virtue of disrupting its structure into intermediate states which may be less functional for the duration of the transformation).

A werewolf would probably be a combination of these, but either one would do the job.

The "Injury" idea also comes from the idea of what can be done with cosmetic plastic surgery, which is basically inflicting carefully controlled injuries to the body. Surgery is still cutting soft tissues and essentially taking a hammer and chisel (or power tools) to bone to change their shape. Just imagine if a plastic surgeon tried to do what a werewolf transformation does to you in the same 30 second - 5 minute time frame. You'd die.

To be honest I'm still kind of confused about healing vs regeneration, that was my attempt to rationalize and understand it. My rationale comes from what I see in nature. Take a star fish. You cut one of the limbs off, it bleeds a bit, then the wound heals. And then it grows a new limb. The closure of the wound is healing, and the growing of the new limb is regeneration. The skin growing back in humans can be seen as regeneration, but it's not necessarily complete, for the regeneration to be complete there would have to be no scarring in the case of skin. But I don't know. Something to research.

And right on cue I have a headache kicking in. I think I'll bow out for now.

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Re: Durability vs regeneration

Post by Volkodlak »

Uniform Two Six wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:36 pm Well, shapeshifting doesn't necessarily cause damage exactly, but how is a full-body transformation any different from regeneration? :?
Like, you're generating structures that weren't there before, or more accurately taking existing structures and generating new ones from them -- literally "re-generation". Now, I disagree with Meeper that regeneration and healing are different things -- they're not, not at the basic level at least. (As a semantic, "healing" generally refers to what regeneration is and does but limited in degree.) But, shapeshifting is regeneration -- or at least close enough to make little distinction. If one can grow a tail or a muzzle, how is reforming a broken bone any different?
Well in 90% you are not generating structures that weren't there before, but you remodeling existing ones.
As for:
If one can grow a tail or a muzzle, how is reforming a broken bone any different?
Well for starters changing shape and size of skull is diffrent from reforming a broken bone is becouse in one healthy bone is changed in other damaged bone is reformed and healed.
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

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Volkodlak wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:19 am Well in 90% you are not generating structures that weren't there before, but you remodeling existing ones.
Ummm... okay, but on a cellular level, that's pretty much the same thing. I mean, the skin that you have right now is not the skin you had six months ago. You've completely regenerated it -- even if it doesn't look any different. It's essentially what a werewolf would do in a transformation, only over a period of months as opposed to minutes.
Volkodlak wrote: Well for starters changing shape and size of skull is diffrent from reforming a broken bone is becouse in one healthy bone is changed in other damaged bone is reformed and healed.
:eyebrow: Huh? How is an unbroken bone less healthy than a broken one? All the tissue is perfectly healthy (barring an infection or sepsis or something) unless it was somehow compromised prior to the break. And at the risk of repeating myself, how exactly is the skeletal structure of a werewolf reforming during a transformation going to be any different from the cellular regeneration that happens in your bones on a daily basis (again, with the exception that in a werewolf it's going to happen at a vastly accelerated rate)?
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Re: Durability vs regeneration

Post by Volkodlak »

Uniform Two Six wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:20 pm Huh? How is an unbroken bone less healthy than a broken one?
I never said that, you missread it i just said that changing healthy as unbroken bone is diffrent than reforming and healing a broken bone
Uniform Two Six wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:20 pm And at the risk of repeating myself, how exactly is the skeletal structure of a werewolf reforming during a transformation going to be any different from the cellular regeneration that happens in your bones on a daily basis (again, with the exception that in a werewolf it's going to happen at a vastly accelerated rate)?


well in my view cells just change shape and size so they change not regenerate
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