What should a werewolf be?

[LoopyWolf]

Nice to have a forum to say this:

What BOTHERS me about just about EVERY werewolf movie ever made, apart from the fact that they all suck, and that there are 10,000 vampires movies to every 1 werewolf movie, is the design of the werewolf myth, and the design of the werewolf creature:

1. Taking for a start that a werewolf is half-man, half-wolf.. WHERE on earth do people get the notion of the stereotypical 800-lb hulking killing machine? A wolf is about 80 lbs, and is not a killing machine. So why is a half-man, half-wolf always huge, slavering, and a hulking monstrosity. How about something half-man, half-wolf..? What a concept

2. Looks: Ok, so you're innovating.. Ok so werewolves are from another planet, so they are a virus - whatever - don't care. WHATEVER they are, they have to be something that the people in olden days MISTOOK for a WOLF. Not one thing in any of these films remotely resembles a wolf. We usually get something viceral or something like a bear, or something misshapen and gross. Would your average peasant shout, "It's a wolf man!" or would they shout, "A bear!"

3. Hobble about on Stilts: Are wolves exceptionally tall? Why do directors insist on having their poor werewolves hobble about on stilts that look wierd. I have a digitigrade design that has FULL agility FULL mobility.. turn cartwheels, run, fight, no trouble.

4. Werewolf Mythology: Granted, the pop-occult boom hasn't grown into werewolves, and the only ground-breaking I've seen is in Dr. Who, but I would heartily HEARTILY urge anyone making a werewolf film to look a bit father into werewolf mythology than Universal Studios' "The Wolf Man" Silver, Full Moons have little at all to do with werewolf myths. They were added just as superficially as sunlight to vampires. PLEASE ground-break.

If you need any picture, special-effect or mythological references I'd be happy to oblige

[Calypso Blue]

Thank ya loopy.

I know they're listenin to ya. I know that the werewolves are going to look more like wolves than anything else out there in the genre. Or at least I think so.. some tests are being done in the next month.

I appreciate the insight, and I whole heartedly agree. I know for a fact that they've already gathered myths all the way back to Lycan, from various different countries. So, they're not making the big studio werewollf that is the furry answer to the matrix. But rather a real type of creature that has this (im not sure at this point to say ability, or affliction).. to become a wolf. I also know that they're talking about the full moon only being an astetic (kinna based on the fact of real wolves baying at the full moon kinna thing, mixed with the fact that crime goes up during a full moon, and peoples adrenaline levels tend to increase will the full moon) that kinna thing. I think that may be as far as the moon goes in this. But again, I cant be sure, Im not the final word by a long shot.

The Directors office looks like a library at the moment.

CB

[WolvenOne]

A wolf is about 80 lbs, and is not a killing machine. So why is a half-man, half-wolf always huge, slavering, and a hulking monstrosity

Actually a werewolf can wiegh anywhere from 50 to 130 pounds and even during the summer months when they don't have thier winter coat, they're visably larger then most dogs.

This of course is a minor gripe, you're very much correct that werewolves should look like wolves. However, prostetics and suites and whatnot have to fit on-top of a human frame, so as a matter of practicality most werewolves have to look at least slightly larger then they do as humans.

[Xodiac]

I've been wondering about these things, myself. A wolf weighs less than a man, and a man weighs, well, as much as a man. So why all the added bulk? Okay, they might be stronger than human, but they're not the Superman!

Ditto with the height thing.

Interesting point about the looks. I hadn't really thought about it that way, though of course I was a bit disappointed by how the "werewolves" looked in several past films. But, yeah, some of them look more like badly deformed humans than anything that might be mistaken for a wolf.

[WolvenOne]

I've actually thought about the subject of growth in transformations alot in the past, and have often thought that transformations really fall into 1 of 3 catagories.

1: Addition + Reconiguration of mass

2: Reconfiguration of mass

3: Loss + reconfiguration of mass



Addition and reconfiguration of mass, is seemingly used alot in transformations that're triggered by magic. Simply put, this class of transformation, basically uses some sort of external source of power to add needed mass as the subjects body reconfigures into another shape. Simply put, the logic here is that , body parts such as the skull, are going to need added mass in order to accomadate things like a growing muzzle and that over-all, added mass is going to be needed all over in order to accomadate either larger or differently shaped body parts.

This can result in a creature ranging from 5 to 100+ pounds heavier then they were before a transformation. Even creatures like a were-mouse would probably gain mass while using this method. However, the idea of a were-mouse having a stature comperable to a werewolf, seems completly wrong to me. I would think that a werewolf would gain far more mass then a weremouse. ;)



Simple reconfiguration is slightly more realistically, basically, it's using a bodies existing mass instead of adding mass on-top of things. Logically though, this is a lot more dangerous then option one. Mass for things like, a tail, a differently shaped skull , fur, claws, etc, need to come from somewhere. So massive amount of mass would have to be redistributed, which would leave the subject's body, weak.

The werewolf would be the equivelent of a man dying of starvation after every transformation.



Reduction plus reconfiguration, is the most realistic method of transformation for small creatures, such as weremice. Basically, it would involve the subject expelling mass from it's body, shrinking somewhat, as the subjects body is reconfigured. This loss of mass could be attributed to either magic, or it could simply be the result of the subject vomiting and such.

I cannot imagine such a transformation method would be healthy though.


Anyhow, that's just my two cents on the matter. Nobody ever accused my of being an expert. ;)

[Jinroh]

In my opinion I believe it would usually be a straight reconfiguration. (When Magick is not involved mind you) I too am rather annoyed at the, for lack of a better way of explaining it, Incredible Hulk with a wolf head that has been prevalant recently. Though it might seem appealing to people who want action, it is not all that accurate as you all have pointed out. In regards to height, the height of a Man is about it. Possibly a few inches taller depending on certain things. Now, the huge muscles that are often depicted are rather a contradiction to real wolves. My dogs are part wolf and they excercise all the time and have no huge Arnold Schwartzeneger Muscles. They as Wolves do have Very Dense and Compact Muscle Tissue, they are very strong. I also do not like the very savage visceral nature that they depict of Werewolves. Wolves (in my studies) are very similar to humans. They are very social and not exactly killing machines as many of you have pointed out. They have a society, signs, symbols, customs, etc. They may be predators but they are far from savage. If any of you feel I am repeating very stupid concepts that may or may not have been addressed please let me know. However, yes, since depending on the circumstances the person may have a bloodlust, with enough willpower they could overcome that. Also what I would like to see which was addressed a bit by Lucien from Underworld (or however you spell his name) is a Partial Transfomation. An elder Werewolf could control his transformation so that he could do a partial transformation, like Fangs, Claws, Werewolf Eyes, what not while still in human form. If it sounds stupid tell me. I was just thinking if you were in a public area and was jumped or something and need more power I'm sure that an experienced shapeshifter could undergo a partial transformation. Does that make sense?
Well that's my two cents.

[Treads Lightly]

One of the reasons that wolves are as muscular as they are is because of the fact that they walk many tens of miles a day and eat once a week. Werewolves, on the other hand, would eat far more junk food and probably not work out every day that they are in their human form. So therefore is stands to reason that not every werewolf would be hulking in his or her wolf form.

To me it would be more interesting to see some variation on the forms of the weres and not so much cookie cutter like just about any werewolf movie that comes to mind. How humorous would it be to see a werewolf with a beer gut...well maybe that?s taking it a bit too far.

If a tree falls in the forest, not every werewolf would be able to pick it up and throw it twenty feet.

[Silverclaw]

I also dont think that a werewolf must grow really tall with layers upon layers of muscle. A werewolf in that form would be stronger than when in human form, but they should not become Supermans. Werewolves should be portrayed as real creatures that could exist.
I dont really think that their would be many overweight werewolves. They have a really high motabilism as it is, so I dont think there would be any 300 pound werewolves. Heavyish/husky, alright, but I personly dont think their should be overly obease ones

[Treads Lightly]

That actually brings up an interesting question, would the first transformation kill a person if he or she were not physically fit enough to handle the changes? Not only the morbidly obese people but the anorexic end of the scale too. That could possibly be reasoning as to why werewolves are similar sizes, selection of the fittest.

[WolvenOne]

If we're going for straight up option 2.

"2: Reconfiguration of mass ."

Then actually, the overwight would be more likely to survive it then a fit person.

The simple fact of the matter is that option 2 essentially requires the subject to grow whole new body parts using existing mass, without magical supplimentation. A thin person whom is very fit, really doesn't have much excess mass to draw from though, so that'd mean that muscle mass, existing bones, and possibly even internal organs would have to be used.

This is the reason why I didn't like option 2, it's just SO dangerous, and even if it works, the werewolf would probably be shorter and have thinner muscles. It'd be a weak pathetic creature that likely wouldn't survive long.

I know we're talking about werewolf-dom being virus like, however, I would still opt to model the transformations after option one.

"1: Addition + Reconiguration of mass "

I know we're trying to avoid huge hulk like werewolves here, however there's no rule stateing that you need to add 100 pounds of muscle mass.
Simply put, as a glance, adding 10-20 pounds worth of overall mass to account for things such as the growth of a tail, wouldn't be really noticable, and would be quite resonable.

As for why there's this, magical addition of wieght? Well, we know that the directors are making Werewolfdom virus-like, however, it could simply be the case that it's a curse, living in the blood, and that as the blood passes from person to person, so does werewolfism.

We don't really know for sure, as I doubt that doctors in this setting have formally studied werewolves.

Funny Mental Image Alert: A doctor looks at a werewolf blood sample, and instead of seeing a virus, see's thousands of super deformed microscopic demons waving pitch-forks and doing the macharana

[NightmareHero]

I too also feel that the werewolves shouldn't be supermuscular, but I do believe that some level of muscularity comparable to human male and female bodybuilders would be acceptable. Of course some alterations would have to be made so that there could be further distinguishing features for the genders. As someone noted, some female bodybuilders do not look femanine from the back. this can be fixed by makeing the buttocks softer and the hips wide. but in all the myths of werewolves that I have read, most of them were showen as physically strong creatures. I remember reading or seeing a picture in such a book where several witch werewolves were dipicted jumping over a VERY high brick wall as a rite of passage, maybe a castle wall. Those that didn't were killed. But again the myths vary. I also remember vaguely a male werewolf who spoke to a priest that he met along the way through the forest if he could give blessing to his pregnet werewolf wife. So there are varied aspects of the myth some with them portrayed as monsters, which is where hollywood got its inspiration, and some of them portrayed with reasonable, human like characteristics.

Back to the point.....
I say a believable amount of muscularity is required for both genders, and to show off a transformation where their cloths rip, if rushed or in a hurry to transform.


I would hate for a slender woman to remain of the same muscle build when fully transformed, since it would not display an increase in her physical prowess, also its cool to see muscles growing.
Besides, a physcally strong woman may look more appealing to a physically strong male. And a physically strong female also looks more dominant than a normal woman. Think of the werewolf physique as revealing the strengh inside of the woman that lies hidden when in disguised, the woman's strength would then be exposed for all to see, including her potential mates.

I say, take the best of the old (myth), the best of the new (FX), and make something grand.

Remember what Bruce Lee said, "Absorb what is usefull"

[Tock]

The simple fact of the matter is that option 2 essentially requires the subject to grow whole new body parts using existing mass, without magical supplimentation. A thin person whom is very fit, really doesn't have much excess mass to draw from though, so that'd mean that muscle mass, existing bones, and possibly even internal organs would have to be used.

You say that like it takes that much energy to shift.
It would be an awful survival mechanism. Also, the idea that they would use internal organs to supplement the growth of other things? I would imagine it the other way around. After all, a wolf is smaller than a human, and therefore there would be EXCESS mass to be used.
Think about it.

[Berserker]

The simple fact of the matter is that option 2 essentially requires the subject to grow whole new body parts using existing mass, without magical supplimentation. A thin person whom is very fit, really doesn't have much excess mass to draw from though, so that'd mean that muscle mass, existing bones, and possibly even internal organs would have to be used.

You say that like it takes that much energy to shift.
It would be an awful survival mechanism. Also, the idea that they would use internal organs to supplement the growth of other things? I would imagine it the other way around. After all, a wolf is smaller than a human, and therefore there would be EXCESS mass to be used.
Think about it.

You're talking to someone who hasn't posted in 3 years.

Hooray for the oldest post necro in history! 2004... isn't that when the forum first started?

[lycanthropeful]

I say a believable amount of muscularity is required for both genders, and to show off a transformation where their cloths rip, if rushed or in a hurry to transform.


I would hate for a slender woman to remain of the same muscle build when fully transformed, since it would not display an increase in her physical prowess, also its cool to see muscles growing. Besides, a physcally strong woman may look more appealing to a physically strong male. And a physically strong female also looks more dominant than a normal woman. Think of the werewolf physique as revealing the strengh inside of the woman that lies hidden when in disguised, the woman's strength would then be exposed for all to see, including her potential mates.

So it takes a 5+ year old post to get at what I really mean... I've never understood the whole mass/loss/etc. pseudo-science behind the "real" process behind lycanthropy, but all I know is that male OR female, I approve of buff/"Hulk" werewolves. Many people of the beginning of this thread were against that because it's "not accurate."

Does it have to be, though? I would not be all that threatened by a lanky wolf-thing creeping out of the forest.

[RedEye]

Again: We request people goto old posts rather than opening new threads. It isn't necroposting; it's obeying the rules.

Now, having said that; I'll be watching tock because he did that thing, and having people obeying the rules is unusual enough to warrant a greater level of oversight.

And to tock and the rest of the Pack; if you find a thread that is old enough to rate as ancient; reconsider your post and perhaps set it as a question rather than a response. Then you can start a new thread with a clear conscience and get called out by others for not using a three year old thread.

Yeah. You absolutely cannot win. Get used to it; it's life.

[Uniform Two Six]

So it takes a 5+ year old post to get at what I really mean... I approve of buff/"Hulk" werewolves.

First, ditto, although you and I are definitely in the minority there. I can prove it. Which leads me to... a really old post.

EDIT: Blankety-blank site migration. Let's try this again: a really old post.

[Tock]

You're talking to someone who hasn't posted in 3 years.

Hooray for the oldest post necro in history! 2004... isn't that when the forum first started?

Oh well. It's my opinion, I felt like sharing it.

[JoshuaMadoc]

I would not be all that threatened by a lanky wolf-thing creeping out of the forest.

I'd probably reconsider that once it starts spitting out giant flesh-eating maggots.

[Aki]

On the subject of muscles I personally prefer the more slender (though still noticably muscled) look. I'm a sucker for 'realism' (or the closest thing you get with fictional subjects) and like the aesthetic of lanky, wraithlike werewolves like the ones in Dog Soldiers. Tall thing shadows slipping out from around a corner and cutting down a foe with razor sharp claws before fading away again.

That said, I find huge a** hulk-style werewolves fun now and then. Tossing cars = awesome.

[Meeper]

A wolf is about 80 lbs, and is not a killing machine. So why is a half-man, half-wolf always huge, slavering, and a hulking monstrosity

Actually a werewolf can wiegh anywhere from 50 to 130 pounds and even during the summer months when they don't have thier winter coat, they're visably larger then most dogs.

This of course is a minor gripe, you're very much correct that werewolves should look like wolves. However, prostetics and suites and whatnot have to fit on-top of a human frame, so as a matter of practicality most werewolves have to look at least slightly larger then they do as humans.

Unless you use a different actor with a smaller frame, who can be bulked up by a costume to approximately the same overall size as the actors playing the human forms, I'd suggest that werewolf and human forms, being that they're so different anyway, need not necessarily try maintain a recognizable common visual trait at all, which is the only real reason for having the main actors get punished in the makeup chair , indeed many movie werewolves don't maintain any coherence there, in other words there need not be anything remotely recognizable of the human form in the werewolf form and vice-versa, save for none distinct things like hairiness or mid way transformations of course.

The Meeper.