Partial Transformations

[Kelpten]

Should a werewolf be able to change only part of his body while keeping the rest in the other form? For instance, while a human can he have wolf ears and tail to help express emotions, or be a wolf with human hands to open doors? It's basically also asking if the forms should be absolute (Human, Gestalt, Wolf) or all the forms in between. If this topic has been descussed before, please just post a link.

[Spongy]

Makes sense to me. If the whole body can shift, why should you not be able to focus the shift on just one part?

[Terastas]

Shifting isn't programmed into the human instinct, so it would take some practice just to shift on one's own. Theoretically, with enough experience, a werewolf could learn not only how to force himself to shift, but also how to shift what parts of his body.

Within reason, of course. I don't think you'd ever see a werewolf like the ones in Hyper Police where they have fully developed ears and tails and everything else is perfectly human. If they did shift certain parts of themselves, the best I think they could manage without having to shift any other part of their body would be halfway between two forms. A wolf with features perfectly recognizable as being human or vice versa would be stretching their limits to far if you ask me. Limitations are what make concepts and characters more believable.

[Faolan Bloodtooth]

I remember reading a Hammer Horror Monsters book with something similar to this in it...

Glendon III, the grandson of the original Werewolf in London, was captured by Dracula's Daughter (the story was pretty bad ) and shifted his hand to an elongated form to escape the bonds

Personal Opinion: i think it's entirely possible, with practice of course

Laters

[Silver]

I think it's possible with enough practice. It would definitely take Lots of practice.

[Vuldari]

Depending on the story, and the werewolf, I can see how this could be used in ways that make some amount of sense, but overall, I just don't like it.


I'm not fond of werewolves that have too much control over when they change (or don't change), and to me, being able to not only change anytime, anywhere At Will but also be able to change individual body parts, or stop the change at any mid-stage they desire is just going TOO FAR.


Magical Shapeshifters can do that...if you are a Wizard, or a mystical Kitsune, or maybe the demigod, half-breed child of an Animal Totem spirit, then you would have that kind of control.


To me, part of being a Werewolf is LOOSING control. Even if they are not evil, and not bloodthirsty, I still feel that it is an essential part of being a Werewolf is some amount of loosing control of yourself. ...the animal within having a mind of its own, and taking you along for the ride when you least expect it. ...and not just in the beginning, but always. (...no matter How Much you practice...)


'Taming' the Lycanthropy to such a precise and refined degree is almost like lycanthropic "Blasphemy"...at least in my own eyes.


Again...in some instances (mostly in settings that take the subject a little less seriously, like cartoons or comics), I can see it, but it just doesn't feel right in most other cases to me.

Inconvenient, yes...but that's kind of the point...

[Kelpten]

Personally I think that it would be very useful to sprout a tail and ears to aid expression, but I can also see how it's more cartoonish, so I think I'll go for complete transformation from human to wolf only (excluding even gestalt). As far as the losing control idea by Vuldari, that scares me more than anything, because that lack of control is what truely creates a monster.

[RedEye]

What I've used in my manuscript is a thing called a "Panic-Shift". It happens when the Were' is frightened, terrified; and adrenalin kicks in.
Normally, the Were's shift over a time of about one minute frorm "Smooth" to "Wulfen", doing so in a series of "steps" (like most Horror movies); going from "Smooth" to "Wulfen" in a series of stages; each supported by the previous stage and preparing for the next stage.
Note: all this flows smoothly, I use "stage" to mark the beginning and completion of a metamorphic step in the Shift process.
A Panic-Shift is different. Here, Fear takes over and the Shift is minimal and incomplete: The face remains mostly Human, fur grows on the forearms and lower legs, the Claws grow, and the Fangs manifest. There is no "tail" growth in a panic shift: It takes all of maybe twenty seconds, and the Wolf is in charge. Flight or Fight is the operating mode, the Were' will take any opening to escape. If you are in the way, you're likely to have Werewolf footprints on your chest or back, along with claw scratches as well, from the Wolf seeking a way out.
The Panic-Shifted Werewolf looks like "old Brillo-face"- the Lon Chaney Jr. Werewolf. Once in a "safe place", the Shift must continue to Full Werewolf: to regain "Smooth" appearance the Were' would have to shift to Werewolf, then back to Smooth.
I side with the folks that say there is no controlling the Wolf: part shifts aren't possible, other than the Panic-Shift, and that has to continue to the Full Were' stage eventually.
That's my two bits worth...

[Vuldari]

As far as the losing control idea by Vuldari, that scares me more than anything, because that lack of control is what truely creates a monster.

Thats the idea. Just what exactly is a WereWolf supposed to be, if not the iconic, traditional 'Monster' known almost universally around the world?

...convenient for expression? Is a Werewolf a Monster, or a person who turns into an anthro wolf furry for parties, and will grow out it's tail and ears just to greet another werewolf by wiggling and wagging them?


Personally...I think this is all getting just silly, and some of us are forgetting that we are talking about WEREWOLVES here, and not racially outcast transforming Furries.

[Vuldari]

What I've used in my manuscript is a thing called a "Panic-Shift". It happens when the Were' is frightened, terrified; and adrenalin kicks in.
Normally, the Were's shift over a time of about one minute frorm "Smooth" to "Wulfen", doing so in a series of "steps" (like most Horror movies); going from "Smooth" to "Wulfen" in a series of stages; each supported by the previous stage and preparing for the next stage.
Note: all this flows smoothly, I use "stage" to mark the beginning and completion of a metamorphic step in the Shift process.
A Panic-Shift is different. Here, Fear takes over and the Shift is minimal and incomplete: The face remains mostly Human, fur grows on the forearms and lower legs, the Claws grow, and the Fangs manifest. There is no "tail" growth in a panic shift: It takes all of maybe twenty seconds, and the Wolf is in charge. Flight or Fight is the operating mode, the Were' will take any opening to escape. If you are in the way, you're likely to have Werewolf footprints on your chest or back, along with claw scratches as well, from the Wolf seeking a way out.
The Panic-Shifted Werewolf looks like "old Brillo-face"- the Lon Chaney Jr. Werewolf. Once in a "safe place", the Shift must continue to Full Werewolf: to regain "Smooth" appearance the Were' would have to shift to Werewolf, then back to Smooth.
I side with the folks that say there is no controlling the Wolf: part shifts aren't possible, other than the Panic-Shift, and that has to continue to the Full Were' stage eventually.
That's my two bits worth...

I somewhat like the ideas behind this. I don't like controllable mid-stages wherever the werewolf pleases, but panic induced 'almost' transformations seem passable to me.

Also, I agree with the idea that, once the process begins, though one may be able to delay the progression of the transformation and appear to be staying in a mid form, it would truly be 'unstoppable' once it had begun and one would only be slowing down the inevitable full transformation which would have to be completed before any reversal could occur. (At least...the way I would most often prefer it.)

Nice ideas RedEye.

[Midnight]

Is a Werewolf a Monster, or a person who turns into an anthro wolf furry for parties

Neither, either or both, depending on the werewolf. That's one of the things I like about werewolves: more variety, less reliance on Holy Writ. Variety being the spice of life and all that...

[Terastas]

As far as the losing control idea by Vuldari, that scares me more than anything, because that lack of control is what truely creates a monster.

Thats the idea. Just what exactly is a WereWolf supposed to be, if not the iconic, traditional 'Monster' known almost universally around the world?

The problem with werewolves being monsters as described is that it's already been done plenty of times before, and the werewolf movies that were actually halfway decent can be counted on one hand. There's a line between making werewolves believable as human beings and believable monsters. Balancing them is tricky since it's never actually been done before.

We have another thread discussing the element of control though. The thing is that while uncontrolled shifting makes more sense scientifically, presuming that werewolves could live with an uncontrollable syndrome and still maintain total anonymity is stretching it. Once again, it's a balancing act; adding realism to one element takes away realism from another.

[MoonKit]

I like to keep my definition of werewolves as peaceful shapeshifters, not monsters. Most legends say that they turn into animals and cause mischief. Not monsters and terrorize people. Thats only in movies.

Mine can change at will. Though Ive never put in a partial change...just never found a need to. I supose I would make it possible with lots of practice but the giant half form is much more likely in my story and that is even extrodinarily rare.

[Rhuen]

This is very simular to the other topic about shapeshifitng and not shapeshifting.

When it comes to these oddly enought those with just the tail, ears, and maybe some claws and eyes tend to be more animal like than the fully Furre which is used mostly as an animal person with all the same limitations as a normal human.

While I can the anime-esque traits version used in maybe an action flick (like it is in so many animes) and rarely if ever in live action as they never make these things look right in live action. animation is more fluid in this respect. It usually belongs in a world where the concept isn't too outlandish. In fact aside from ANime these are fairly common in videogames (all action of course)

Now a Furre. This brings to mind Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Howard the Duck, so action and comedy.

For drama and horror the full beast and manbeast feels more appropriate.

[RedEye]

Werewolves as monsters...

Medically and Biologically a "Monster" is an "Extremely Malformed example of a specific species" such a an Anencephalic baby, where development of the brain and skull stop above the eyes and you get something that looks like a human "frog" mutation. They're usually born dead. That Mexican family that has extreme hariness (dog-people) are technically "Monsters" too. "Quasimodo" was a "Monster".
Whether a Werewolf is a "Monster" depends on whether it is a separate species, a race of Humanity, a forced mutation (by the VirOID not Virus), or just what they are biologically. Generally, they wouldn't be Monsters.
If they are a species of Humanity- they aren't. They are "normal" for their "species". If they are the result of some "curse", then they are monsters, since their species is non-wolfy Human.
Then, if you let Hollywood into it, they could be anything at all...
even Tax Accountants...

[Scott Gardener]

In my storyline, one can learn to over time, but it takes lots of practice. Someone with lycanthropy for decades could, but not a newly bitten. It's easier for those born with lycanthropy--one of the few distinctions I do make between born and bitten, aside from what the bitten person has to go through.

[Rhuen]

Werewolves as monsters...

Medically and Biologically a "Monster" is an "Extremely Malformed example of a specific species" such a an Anencephalic baby, where development of the brain and skull stop above the eyes and you get something that looks like a human "frog" mutation. They're usually born dead. That Mexican family that has extreme hariness (dog-people) are technically "Monsters" too. "Quasimodo" was a "Monster".
Whether a Werewolf is a "Monster" depends on whether it is a separate species, a race of Humanity, a forced mutation (by the VirOID not Virus), or just what they are biologically. Generally, they wouldn't be Monsters.
If they are a species of Humanity- they aren't. They are "normal" for their "species". If they are the result of some "curse", then they are monsters, since their species is non-wolfy Human.
Then, if you let Hollywood into it, they could be anything at all...
even Tax Accountants...

or definition is only partly right and only in that one context.
Dictionary
Monster:
1. a legendary animal combining features of animal and human form or having the forms of various animals in combination, as a centaur, griffin, or sphinx.
2. any creature so ugly or monstrous as to frighten people.
3. any animal or human grotesquely deviating from the normal shape, behavior, or character.
4. a person who excites horror by wickedness, cruelty, etc.
5. any animal or thing huge in size.
6. Biology. a. an animal or plant of abnormal form or structure, as from marked malformation or the absence of certain parts or organs.
b. a grossly anomalous fetus or infant, esp. one that is not viable.

7. anything unnatural or monstrous.
—adjective 8. huge; enormous; monstrous: a monster tree.

a werewolf fits (1) you limited it to (6) "monster" is more varied than that so a werewolf being an un-natural creature with human and wolf charateristics makes it a "monster"

[Kelpten]

What I ment when I said monster was what Vuldari said about him "losing control" to the animal inside him, a seperate concious. While to him it apears to be exilirating, to me that's terrifying. After all, control over dangerous passions (such as violence or lust) is a trait that people revear, while substinces such as alcohol that rob one of self control are deplored for that reason (sorry to all you who like beer). To know that some terrible act could be commited with your body is what is so repulsive to me. The longing for the werewolf quickly changes to revultion without this self control.

[Vuldari]

What I ment when I said monster was what Vuldari said about him "losing control" to the animal inside him, a seperate concious. While to him it apears to be exilirating, to me that's terrifying. After all, control over dangerous passions (such as violence or lust) is a trait that people revear, while substinces such as alcohol that rob one of self control are deplored for that reason (sorry to all you who like beer). To know that some terrible act could be commited with your body is what is so repulsive to me. The longing for the werewolf quickly changes to revultion without this self control.

No, no, no...

You are misunderstanding my perspective. Unlike many others here, I am not reinventing what a Werewolf is to suit some fantasy of mine of what I wish I Myself would like to be if I had wolf shapeshifting abilities. ...that's not it at all. I don't prefer werewolves to be out of control because I think that would be "Exhilarating" for me if I was a werewolf, as if I would ENJOY that somehow...

I prefer it that way because that is what I identify the Lycanthropic condition as. I think that would be absolutely Terrifying. I think it would make life for a werewolf a chaotic, dangerous nightmare...I think it would make Lycanthropy a 'CURSE'...which is always what it has been to me. That is what Separates a "Werewolf" from some other kind of shapeshifter which can take the form of a Wolf. A Werewolf is something that is scary to BE...not just to be around.

I believe that a strong minded and strong willed person could eventually learn to compensate and work WITH their condition and use it to their advantage, and remain good, kind, gentile people/creatures...but that it would always be a struggle, (most would be driven MAD)...not some convenient Furry Fantasy SuperPower.


..."Spoofs" are fine. I think comedy stories and cartoons and comic strips about sillier versions of werewolves are tons of fun, and I like them very much, but my personal opinion and preference is that a werewolf is a person who is forced to transform into a beast against their will. Gaining enough control over your emotions to trigger the transformation prematurely, intentionally, or delay it temporarily is one thing...but being able to just grow the claws to open a can, or just the tail and ears for Lupine-esque Dominant/Submissive gesture communication is absurd to me outside of a comedy setting.


Sorry for the rant... I just wanted to clarify my stance and reasons for my opinion. ...and it IS just that...my OPINION.
Nothing more...Nothing less...


[Edit:] On the idea that not having enough control makes werewolves Less 'Realistic' because it would increase the chances of them being discovered, my opinion on that remains the same as it ever was. Werewolves remain mostly unknown because there are not very many of them. They are rare because if they are not careful, they get themselves killed very quickly. All 'Rogue' werewolves died hundreds of years ago. The only ones left are the ones that learned to stay away from public places, and know when they are going to change and make sure to be FAR away from people when they do. To me, it's not such a mystery that they have not been 'discovered' yet, as much as it is amazing that there are any Left at all. A "Smart" werewolf would never bite anyone and create no successors, allowing the condition to die with them. The Real mystery and wonder is...how has this line survived this long? ...how and why did the last generation purposefully or accidentally pass on the condition to another? ...parent and child? ...an accident? ...an intentional desire to keep the line alive? ...?

[Nomuh]

Well, when I read the old myth about werewolves, I never got the impression that the person lost control over himself, and then went out and killed people. To me it seemed like the people were evil to begin with, and then just used the stronger and faster wolf body to do what they liked. In a lot of stories they even keep their ability to talk, which suggests to me that they had everything under control.

I personally have my werewolves start out as savage beasts, but the anger is surprisingly easy to control if they get a good teacher (one even brags about having taught a young man to control himself in a year), but they'll never get rid of the bloodthirstiness, which they usually take out on animals. Some rich wolves even have animals just for this purpose.

[Vuldari]

When did I say anything about Anger and running around killing people?

That is not what I meant by "Losing Control".

What I meant was, they are unable to ever truely tame the beast within. Transformation would always be something they have to make comprimises and sacrifices for, since they could not stop it when it 'needs' to happen, (whether they like it or not), and would never know for certain when it might be coaxed out of them at an inoppertune moment. Also, though they may not have a completely diferent personality when tranformed, all of their normal Human instincts and impulses would be replaced by wolven ones, possibly leading them to behave in ways they normally never would. ...and maybe doing something they will later regret.

Bringing it back to the subject of "control", in relation to an ability or inability to shift individual body parts, if we are talking about evil people using witchcraft to make themselves more effective killers, that's one thing. That's magic.

...but this talk about shifting individual parts for "communication"... Are you actually visualising this? Am I the only one who sees how rediculous that would be...and LOOK?

IMHO, Werewolves that are not self induced spells have always been curses which, by nature, take control and civility away from the host/victim...not give them controllable superpowers, invunerability and 'parlor trick' special abilities that they can use or not use at their pleasure and convenience.

That is not, nor has ever been what Werewolves have been about...IMHO.

[Rhuen]

The medium is the key to our expectations of a "werewolf"

In anime: it can simular to a cat-girl. Although what we would call a werewolf is rare in this medium as wolf-demons and dog-boys are more prefered along side the simular cat-girls. In fact aside from Vampire Hunter D, Nightwarriors, and Slayers. there are very few werewolves in this medium, and even when they do appear they are either so strange that we would hardly think of them as werewolves (like having a giant mouth on their torso) or having Chi-martial arts powers like in Nightwarriors (a werewolf that could summon a giant fire dragon) and other extreme variations.

In horror movies: the out of control beast man is much more popular than anything else. a man who is forced to become a savage monster beyond on their control. It creates a drama and a simpithy"sp". For most monsters they are just inhuman things like vampires and zombies. But a werewolf is a person trapped in the monster's body. The person may even want it to stop (this was the appeal of the Wolfman) the guy was forced to become a werewolf and had to change when the time came despite his protest.
Now we are seeing a rise in people willing the change and being psyhologically unstable because of it from the mixed mind or from the thrill of power. This creates a more modern werewolf appoach. Which oddly enough also fits the traditional approach of a person transforming thanks to magic to go out and kill by choice.
A scarier monster for some is one that knows whats right and wrong but chooses the dark path anyway for power.

In action: the change by will becomes popular (just as the vampire hero has become popular) someone who takes control of what should have been a curse and uses against those that chose to harm others because of their power (which turns vampires and werewolves into monster versions of the X-men really).

[Vuldari]

Anime/Manga is Anime/Manga, and ComicBooks/Action-Movies are ComicBooks/Action-Movies...
They each have their own twisted, imaginative versions of pseudo-reality to suit the whims and over-the-top ambitions of their creators.

...in those settings, sure...why not? In those settings, just about Anything goes. ...but then, in those settings EVERYTHING is bigger, badder and capable of seemingly impossible feats...from Elite Super Soldiers, to 6-year old girls with genius 'Prodigy' abilities.

In such settings, it is only natural to push the abilities of a Werewolf beyond normal limits as well, and into the Red Zone in order to maintain their "extraordinary" status.

...but taken out of that setting, many of those abilities become pretty silly and inappropriate, IMHO.

[Rhuen]

Anime/Manga is Anime/Manga, and ComicBooks/Action-Movies are ComicBooks/Action-Movies...
They each have their own twisted, imaginative versions of pseudo-reality to suit the whims and over-the-top ambitions of their creators.

...in those settings, sure...why not? In those settings, just about Anything goes. ...but then, in those settings EVERYTHING is bigger, badder and capable of seemingly impossible feats...from Elite Super Soldiers, to 6-year old girls with genius 'Prodigy' abilities.

In such settings, it is only natural to push the abilities of a Werewolf beyond normal limits as well, and into the Red Zone in order to maintain their "extraordinary" status.

...but taken out of that setting, many of those abilities become pretty silly and inappropriate, IMHO.

My point exactly.
The level of transformation should depend on the reality.
How fierce do you think a wolfman would be in a world where the average person can easily lift a 70 pound vase, or survive massive explosions that send them twenty feet in the air and heroes shoot fire balls and do impossible magic.
Which is why in Shadow Skill we got a werewolf that could send out wolf headed tenticles.

In American horror settings we wouldn't even think to call these werewolves. Then again we have begun to accept the impossible powers Anime writers have given vampires and incorporated that into our own.

Which is a funny story, we invent the classical vampire (well brits did but who cares) America improved the classical vampire to higher powers, and in Japan they give Classical vampires magic and greater shape shifting powers. Some of which has been incorporated in movies like Van Helsing (Dracula's vamp look was clearly taken from Demitri Maximof's full demon vampire form) and the oldest vampire from Under World 2.

Werewolves have felt this a little bit too. The shape of the werewolf and power that they have is now more reminiscent of these anime versions than old horror versions (such as jumping on top of roofs or climbing up walls)

everything influences something else and they come back around and as they all change we take from each other what we like and don't like.

But in all we should try to keep within certain perameters within a genre and medium.

[Vuldari]

Anime/Manga is Anime/Manga, and ComicBooks/Action-Movies are ComicBooks/Action-Movies...
They each have their own twisted, imaginative versions of pseudo-reality to suit the whims and over-the-top ambitions of their creators.

...in those settings, sure...why not? In those settings, just about Anything goes. ...but then, in those settings EVERYTHING is bigger, badder and capable of seemingly impossible feats...from Elite Super Soldiers, to 6-year old girls with genius 'Prodigy' abilities.

In such settings, it is only natural to push the abilities of a Werewolf beyond normal limits as well, and into the Red Zone in order to maintain their "extraordinary" status.

...but taken out of that setting, many of those abilities become pretty silly and inappropriate, IMHO.

My point exactly.
The level of transformation should depend on the reality.
How fierce do you think a wolfman would be in a world where the average person can easily lift a 70 pound vase, or survive massive explosions that send them twenty feet in the air and heroes shoot fire balls and do impossible magic.
Which is why in Shadow Skill we got a werewolf that could send out wolf headed tenticles.

In American horror settings we wouldn't even think to call these werewolves. Then again we have begun to accept the impossible powers Anime writers have given vampires and incorporated that into our own.

Which is a funny story, we invent the classical vampire (well brits did but who cares) America improved the classical vampire to higher powers, and in Japan they give Classical vampires magic and greater shape shifting powers. Some of which has been incorporated in movies like Van Helsing (Dracula's vamp look was clearly taken from Demitri Maximof's full demon vampire form) and the oldest vampire from Under World 2.

Werewolves have felt this a little bit too. The shape of the werewolf and power that they have is now more reminiscent of these anime versions than old horror versions (such as jumping on top of roofs or climbing up walls)

everything influences something else and they come back around and as they all change we take from each other what we like and don't like.

But in all we should try to keep within certain perameters within a genre and medium.

Precisely.

Comic Book and Anime rules and powers are fine, and good fun so long as they stay in Anime and Comics (and crazy, over-the-top Sci-Fi / Fantasy action movies)...

...but if you try to incorporate them into more serious minded Dramas and Horror story settings, (I'm more partial to a good emotional Action-Drama over bloody horror myself), such things just come off as pretty nonsensical and ridiculous.