What would werewolves think of therianthropes??

[Vuldari]

ive read all the posts, all the flames, all the defense and i got only 1 thing to say
I understand PERIOD!

Could you paraphrase a summary of what you understand?

Maybe you can explain it better than I can.


...apparently I must be speaking in Latin, and not realize it. No one seems to be interpreting my messages as what I thought I was saying to them.

[Lukas]

ah but that is the beauty of it all, i don't have to explain it, i could if i wanted too but i simple don't fell like it, maybe tomorrow when im feeling better until good luck on guessing my area of support *wink*

[cumulusprotagonist]

"All we do crumbles to the ground though we refuse to see."

-Dust in the Wind, Kansas

[Terastas]

Vuldari, we knew your position when you first posted it. Now you're just throwing a temper tantrum because we still don't agree with you while pretending that you're the victim and it's everyone else's fault this thread has gone off the deep end.

I don't agree with all of your points, but I don't have an issue with you just because we disagree on some things. I think I speak for all of us when I say it's the excessive ranting, crying, tireless rebutting, nonexistent "facts," inability to even acknowledge the existence of counterarguments as anything other than childish fantasies, and overall complete and total resentment shown towards everyone in this discussion other than yourself that we resent you for.

Your opinion could have just been one among the rest of us, but you've repeated it over and over again to the point that your entire argument is numb. You've done harm to not only yourself, but anyone in the future that will share your opinions; if someone else posts your sentiments without any inspiration from you, a lot of people will just roll their eyes and think "Oh great, another Vuldari."

If you can't accept the fact that people here have opinions at all, much less that those opinions could contradict yours, you are not going to feel very welcome here. If you can't deal with that, start your own forum dedicated purely to your own perspective.

[Lukas]

im feeling better today so ill explain my part of the understanding


Vuldrai's view:
In his opinion he ask that we look at the past, to look at the werewolf as not good but maybe possible BAD and to look at the way they where originally designed to mean, he is saying this because he believe that when discussing something that involves Werewolves he believes that they should be based of story in the past and knowledge of the subject that has been done and accept that definition of the word as are main focal point, he might come off as Matter-o-factly like but its probable just trying to show a different perspective to make us think, "well, what if the werewolf is evil? what is it then?" also involving Therians he trys to make the Def. a single easy to understand meaning, the purpose of this is as stated earlier he is trying to make it so everyone can understand where he is coming from and make it easier for him to express his opinion on the subject, even if he does state it a little strongly he is not any of the "flame warriors" i notice some people have posted. Maybe he simply dosn't see faults that other people see, feel free to correct me on anything vuldrai
Terastas View:
he looks at the subject as anything is possible, and that even if the Werewolf is evil as Vuldrai might suggest, he believes that we should still consider the other options. he is feeling frustrated because he believes that the way Vuldrai post his speeches about it, it rubs off on him that he is just ranting and saying he is right, maybe Vuldrai is coming off that way and he dosnt notice it, either way its make Terastas a little upset about the whole thing and sadly has come to words such as "pull out of your a**" and "shut your mouth" and believes vuldrai is quiet frankly acting like a populaces-a**
again correct me if anything of this is wrong Terastas

either way the subject "how would a Werewolf think of a Therian?
to post my opinion clearly i will state my feelings on the Def.
Werewolf: a physical shape shifter from human to human/wolf or just plain wolf
Therian: someone who has a spiritual connection to a animal or mythical beast
thus i believe that a Real Werewolf would considered this type of person good intentioned or childish and probable wont think well of them, maybe the might offer one or 2 that are good or quiet the gift of the pack, but most likely would avoid them and crack a grin whenever a Therian gives he opinion on the subject since they would know the truth

then again this is all IMO

[Vuldari]

Eeeeennnhhhh...

...CLOSE Lukas. ...but still not quite right yet.

I would very much like to hear Terastass version of what he/she ( the gender field still does not appear for me any more ) understands my opinion to be.
...the one that I am apparently ramming down everyones throats and not taking no for an answer about.




Here is a re-summary of my opinion on the genre of, and usage of the word "Werewolf".
( hopefully now phrased and clarified in a way that does not give so much of the wrong impression )
*continuing on next post*

[ravaged_warrior]

Why is everyone ganging up on poor Vuldari? As far as I've seen, he hasn't done anything wrong, except state an opinion different from your's... But wait, aren't you attacking him for the same reason? Well, now, that's quite interesting. Bottom line, if he feels that you don't understand his opinion, I see no reason why he can't repeat it to try to help you understand. I can see why he's being defensive... So what's your excuse? Past that, what's your excuse for being offensive? I mean, geez, and sorry for singling you out here, Terastas, but in your last post you attacked him with a bunch of pictures insulting his place on the boards, and blamed him for feeling unwelcome! That is crap, Terastas, especially since in your last post that you clearly stated you RESENTMENT of him. It seems to me that a lot of these posts in this thread don't have any place on the board and deserve to be deleted from the thread.


Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go regret getting involved...

[garouda]

Maybe someone can PM me when this thread returns to its original topic .... or not.

[Vuldari]

The story of the "Werwulf" is a long history and tradition of telling tales and legends about a kind of people who do the impossible and the unthinkable by transforming themselves into Animals, ( specifically wolves in this case ) in order to do things that were considered to be "inhuman" at the time. Namely the Hunt, Slaughter, and Consumption of Raw Flesh. These stories were imagined and told under the impression and intention that the idea of a Human Being devouring the flesh of another creature as a wild carnivore does was a terribly frightening and unsettling concept to hear, either when told in a story of obvious fiction, or claimed to be a thing of fact. That was the beginning of the legacy of the creature known, by name, as the Werwulf/Werewolf.

Simultaneously, in other parts of the world, at times ranging from pre-dating the "werwulf" by thousands of years, all the way to being imagined fresh to this very day, different cultures and people have all spawned their own tales and legends of people who transform into animals, ( or sometimes animals that can disgise themselves as humans ) with every range of size, shape, nature and personality imaginable. Some of these tales and legends shared a few similarities to each other, the way they were told, beyond just the shapeshifting aspect of it, while others were hardly comparable at all.

Somewhere along the line, when people began to notice the similarities between these stories, they began to stick them together and consider them all different versions of the same mythical creature, and eventually, the stories began to be told together so often that they began to blend, and entirely NEW legends were born out of the fusion of the old German 'werwulf' ( which was re-spelled "Werewolf" when translated to English ), with entirely different creatures.

For whatever reason...

*continued*

[Lukas]

Eeeeennnhhhh...

...CLOSE Lukas. ...but still not quite right yet.

I would very much like to hear Terastass version of what he/she ( the gender field still does not appear for me any more ) understands my opinion to be.
...the one that I am apparently ramming down everyones throats and not taking no for an answer about.




Here is a re-summary of my opinion on the genre of, and usage of the word "Werewolf".
( hopefully now phrased and clarified in a way that does not give so much of the wrong impression )
*continuing on next post*

woohoo i got close !

[Vuldari]

...

... no matter which culture or story provided the primary inspiration for these new legends, it became customary to refer to them all by the german name "Werewolf". I can only speculate as to why this occured at this point, (though the facts are out there somewhere ), however, I suspect it likely has part to do with the simplistic, instantly recognisable "Monster" presence of the Old Germanic interpretation, and partly to do with the dominating behavior of white skinned cultures during the past 1,000+ years.

Which pretty much brings us to today. Though it is actually a genre composed of a hundred different cultures takes on a similar idea, told in a thousand different ways, every time the animal involved in the metamorphosis is a WOLF, or is even an animal that merely bears a distinct resemblance to a Wolf, it is referred to by-default, as a "Werewolf". ...even though many of these creatures owe little or no heritage to the 'Werwulf' they are being referred to as, by namesake. (Besides the Wolf/Man aspect)

That is the factual history of it. ( as I understand it )

Now, where my personal OPINION comes into the picture is what to coclude, and what action to take, based on this information.

"THE PACK", as self-appointed tennants of the Werewolf genre, I feel owes an obligitory respect to those people and cultures that came before us that have created, maintained and kept fresh and alive the stories we are all using as inspiration by recognising and giving due credit to them for their contributions to this legacy of fantasy, (and horror) by singling out the original ideas and identifying them by the names they were originally known by, if still known, and providing unique distinctions to those concepts and ideas that vary enough to deserve their own creative recognition.

This would/could make discussions about these infinately variable creatures much clearer in the future, as well.

IMHO

[Scott Gardener]

Aren't you glad no one asked what werewolves might think of furries?

[Lukas]

Aren't you glad no one asked what werewolves might think of furries?

jawohl!

[Figarou]

Aren't you glad no one asked what werewolves might think of furries?

Heh..... Thats been asked elsewhere.

Any time therain or furry topic pops up.....a debate happens. Its unavoidable. The thread ends up getting locked.

Why bring up the topic over and over?

I've been snooping around other forums so I can learn some of this therian and furry stuff.

I've learned that there are therians who hate furries. Furries who hates therians. And to my surprise....Furries who hate furries and Therians who hate therians.

Some therians call themselves "werewolves." So its possible the title of this post is aimed at them instead of the shape shifting kind.

Now....are you guys going to continue? Or shall I put a stop to this now?

[Lukas]

im good

[Scott Gardener]

There is so much controversy surrounding furries that the very definition of what constitutes a furry will spark prolonged conflict. If I were to ask what a furry was, at some point, I'd have to tell the guys that we're going to need to move and take it elsewhere, because five billion years have passed, and the sun is about to engulf the planet.

While at A-Kon, I've overheard people describing me in my werewolf outfit as a furry. I'm just glad they didn't ask me if I was one.


I don't know!

[Figarou]

There is so much controversy surrounding furries that the very definition of what constitutes a furry will spark prolonged conflict. If I were to ask what a furry was, at some point, I'd have to tell the guys that we're going to need to move and take it elsewhere, because five billion years have passed, and the sun is about to engulf the planet.

While at A-Kon, I've overheard people describing me in my werewolf outfit as a furry. I'm just glad they didn't ask me if I was one.


I don't know!

There's more. SilverClaw and I heard one say...."No yiffing!!" while he walked by.

[Terastas]

For the last time Vuldari, I never had any problem with your opinion(s). My problem is the way you refer to your ideas and opinions as "truth" and respond with hostility towards any other alternative arguments or interpretations.

You first started flaming at the top of page three in this thread. I don't come in with my counterargument until the middle of page four.

And the original fire starter was your opinion of therians, not werewolves. You've been so hellbent on pushing your opinion as truth that you apparently don't even remember what your opinion originally was.

Figarou, whether this thread should be locked or not should be up to Dreamer and the other posters that did maintain a civil discussion, but you do have my permission. I wouldn't delete this topic though because A) The first two pages do contain some good debate, and B) If we have nothing to go on, this will inevitably happen again ("he that does not know history is doomed to repeat it" and all that).

[Figarou]

Figarou, whether this thread should be locked or not should be up to Dreamer and the other posters that did maintain a civil discussion, but you do have my permission. I wouldn't delete this topic though because A) The first two pages do contain some good debate, and B) If we have nothing to go on, this will inevitably happen again ("he that does not know history is doomed to repeat it" and all that).

Of course. That's why I asked instead of instantly locking it.

[Vuldari]

For the last time Vuldari, I never had any problem with your opinion(s). My problem is the way you refer to your ideas and opinions as "truth" and respond with hostility towards any other alternative arguments or interpretations.

You first started flaming at the top of page three in this thread. I don't come in with my counterargument until the middle of page four.

And the original fire starter was your opinion of therians, not werewolves. You've been so hellbent on pushing your opinion as truth that you apparently don't even remember what your opinion originally was.

Figarou, whether this thread should be locked or not should be up to Dreamer and the other posters that did maintain a civil discussion, but you do have my permission. I wouldn't delete this topic though because A) The first two pages do contain some good debate, and B) If we have nothing to go on, this will inevitably happen again ("he that does not know history is doomed to repeat it" and all that).

My point was that I don't think it is appropriate to consider a Wolf Therian a Werewolf, and I presented the History and origin of the Word "Werwulf", and exaples of Combined-Words which are not interpreted the way you are trying to read "Werewolf" as the reasons. The characters in those stories were very different from what Therians supposedly are.


If you think my historical accuracy is in fault, share a Werewolf story as an example, (preferably one that pre-dates the Internet. Cultural references obviously have more influence and significance than someones personal Fan-Fiction...otherwise you could just write the story right now out of spite, and act like it is the same thing) in which the werewolf was a person with a deep, spiritual connection with the animal they are transforming into, (like a Therian), and I my point will obviously be made void, and my "FACTS" disprooven.

However, every culturally based "Werewolf" story that I've ever heard was about people who probably couldn't care less about what specific animal they changed into, except that it had claws, teeth and ate meat.

(Native Americans and other cultures that had stories about more "Spiritual" type shapeshifters, did not call those legendary people/creatures "Werewolves". They were something else entirely. ...which is part of the point that I have been trying to make. Not every entity in the history of Myth and Legend that transformed into a wolf was a "Werwulf". I think it is foolish to call them all the same thing, because they are obviously NOT)

A "Werwulf" is a "Werwulf" ... a "Kitsune" is a "Kitsune" ... a "Totem" is a "Totem" ... a "Wendigo" is a "Wendigo" ... and a "Therian" is a "Therian".


What is the point of trying to insist that they are the same creature, and confuse everyone by calling them all the same thing?



If You say "Werewolf" and mean "Therian" or "Totem", you are being confusing to anyone who does not share your opinion.



...which makes questions like the subject of this thread nearly impossible to discuss between people of varying opinions in any kind of logical fashion.


Clearly-Defined COMMON GROUND is not 'optional' in this kind of conversation. IMHO

[ravaged_warrior]

Okay, now I think you should stop, Vuldari, before Figarou decides to lock the thread, and I don't think anyone wants that.

[Terastas]

Vuldari, you can put as many "facts" behind your argument as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you're referring to your opinion as "fact" and accusing anyone that acknowledges any counterarguments of everything under the sun. Four pages later, you're still trying to force your opinion.

We had a thread waaaaay back when dealing with different legends, and I distinctly remember presenting forth the possibility that werewolves, kitsunes etc. could all be the same creature, but that different cultures may have viewed them different ways (Europeans thought they looked like wolves, Asians thought they looked like foxes, etc), and all of the legends surrounding the various terms could just be myths and half-truths all pertaining to the same species.

How come you didn't make a big stink over that when I first presented that argument? Two years of civil discussion, and now all of a sudden every message you post is about how we all suck and you're the only one that gets it. Do you even care about the argument, or are you just throwing a tantrum because some of us aren't kissing your a** to make you feel better?

[Rhuen]

Vuldari, you can put as many "facts" behind your argument as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you're referring to your opinion as "fact" and accusing anyone that acknowledges any counterarguments of everything under the sun. Four pages later, you're still trying to force your opinion.

We had a thread waaaaay back when dealing with different legends, and I distinctly remember presenting forth the possibility that werewolves, kitsunes etc. could all be the same creature, but that different cultures may have viewed them different ways (Europeans thought they looked like wolves, Asians thought they looked like foxes, etc), and all of the legends surrounding the various terms could just be myths and half-truths all pertaining to the same species.

How come you didn't make a big stink over that when I first presented that argument? Two years of civil discussion, and now all of a sudden every message you post is about how we all suck and you're the only one that gets it. Do you even care about the argument, or are you just throwing a tantrum because some of us aren't kissing your a** to make you feel better?

Okay as much as I don't want to do this....I have to.

Vuldari is right this time.

a Kitsune and a werewolf are NOT the same thing. Not in the least.

Modern variations on one creature that butcher the mythology is one thing, but to assume that anything from actual mythology are all the same thing due to some arbitrary simulator is not.

A Kitsune is a fox spirit that can not only assume human shape but just about any shape (hell it can turn into a tea kettle if it wanted to (and one did in one sotry). Never was human to start with, can be either a natural fox that has gained supernatural powers, or a fox kami that assumes other shapes.
Now the real discussion with a Kitsune is its relationship to things like Huli Jing and Kimiho (other shapeshifting fox creatures that share the same power and history but differ slightly)

Its like the differences between Nosferatu and Algul

or differences between werewolves and skinwalkers.

a werewolf belongs to the group of (wolf/human) not all shapeshifting creatures.

the Kitsune belongs to (shapeshifting trickster). its has more in common with Anansi the spider than a werewolf.

[WerewolfKeeper3]

Agreed.
In alot of the stories i've read, most cultures have their own werewolf-like creature.
However, in most instances, the creature is described differently from the one in the country next to it.
And grouping all shapeshifting creatures into the same one... just doesn't make sense.
Is the character Coyote from the Native american myths a werewolf? No, he isn't.
And now i think i finally have some what of a grasp on what Vuldari was saying: He's going by the old time version of what werewolf is: one who changes thier form to that of a wolf or partal wolf. (please correct him if he's wrong. this means you too, Terastas.) He's going by the past; as far as i can tell, he's correct in his assumptions. And by the way, isn't alot of ,yths and legends subject to someones inteoretation? That's what he's doing. He's not trying to push his opinion on anyone.
So, can we please move on already, or is someone going to post something else that will continue the argument?

[Terastas]

Just for the record, it's not that Vuldari and I disagree on things that bothers me. It's that he waited two years to suddenly have a bee up his a** about everything under the sun.

The whole werewolf/kitsune thing was just a random idea, but I originally said that over a year ago, and now out of the blue, Vuldari brings it back up like that's what the discussion was about all along.

Sorry Vuldari, but what I see right now is someone that knows their argument regarding therians fell flat and is now throwing out arguments at random hoping someone will finally agree with him (which did happen, though I question the relevance of mentioning werewolves/kitsunes five pages later), as if somehow being "right" about anything will validate the shallow opinions he's been trying to force as truth upon the rest of us.