Werewolf and Kungfu

[Terastas]

Then i guess this is all a matter of choice, now, isn't it? The way i see it, this specific scenario is becoming more and more of a paradox, because like it or not, SOMEBODY'S gonna rebel, regardless of the reasons.

Exactly. That's why you don't want to give anyone any ability to further increase their deadliness: So when they do rebel, the rest of the pack can bring them down.

That is the basis of a huge number of Werewolf flicks-somebody recovers from a physical disagreement with a Werewolf, and we all know the rest of the formula...to death, literally.
If there were Were's it would make sense for them to develop a fighting system that would leave their enemies bashed, bruised, and broken-but not in danger of Crossing Over (becoming a Werewolf themselves).

The simple explanation as to how a werewolf could pummel his victim without killing him or turning him would be to refrain from using claws or fangs. A werewolf could just use his size and increased strength to just plain overpower him with anything from a disabling hold to a body slam. Like I've been saying, the gestalt form by itself offers plenty of means for a werewolf to defend himself.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Then i guess this is all a matter of choice, now, isn't it? The way i see it, this specific scenario is becoming more and more of a paradox, because like it or not, SOMEBODY'S gonna rebel, regardless of the reasons.

Exactly. That's why you don't want to give anyone any ability to further increase their deadliness: So when they do rebel, the rest of the pack can bring them down.

Um...

SOMEBODY'S gonna rebel, regardless of the reasons.

This doesn't mean i've come to a concession. That stereotypical "Count Dante's Dojo Wars incident" type of scenario you've mentioned may be common, but that doesn't mean it has to be that way. You're leaving out the possibility that the rebel only wants to rebel by himself/herself/itself, and wants nobody else involved, or is rebelling quietly and none of the others know about it. After that comes the motive. WHY would a werewolf rebel? Is he/she/it bored and thinks he/she/it is better than Chuck Norris? Is he/she/it declaring war on a personal enemy? Does he/she/it want to be completely independent and wants to be a shut-in?

C'mon, man, don't be such a broccoli.

[Terastas]

Multiple rebels is going off into a different thread: Why a werewolf would want to rebel in the first place. The way you describe it, it's like you expect multiple werewolves to rebel just for the sake of rebellion. That's not a smart thing to do: Normal people don't live their lives thinking primarily on what would be more fun to watch at the movies.

Yes, multiple werewolves may rebel, but presumably not until after they have a damn good reason. Just the same, they would also need a damn good reason for the rest of the pack to let them train in their gestalt form and become even more dangerous than they already are.

Regarding secrecy, remember what I said about a person's natural tendency to wonder and wander? The Pack would also want to know why he's being so secretive and/or why he's distancing himself from the rest of them too. Don't forget, if one werewolf is exposed, it could trigger a witch hunt that could wipe out the entire pack, so it's in everyone's best interest to know what all their other packmates are up to. Someone would want to know what he's hiding and eventually figure it out, and then he would have to explain why he was secretly teaching himself a form of martial arts while in gestalt form.

So lets go over the reasons you mentioned:

Boredom? What, being able to do this isn't exciting enough? And a desire to be better than Chuck Norris doesn't answer the question; it just raises another: Why do you want to be better than Chuck Norris? Power just for the sake of having power is no excuse; the pack would regret ever turning him in the first place.

War? On who? If it's a legitimate threat to the pack, that would be one thing, but no pack with half a brain among the lot of them would ever support a werewolf's desire to use his gestalt form to settle a personal grudge.

A desire to be independent and/or a shut-in? Again, he'd need to explain why. If it was for something personal, a dispute among pack members maybe or a disagreement in the way the pack is being handled, that's one thing. The pack would have to settle that dispute, hear his ideas and/or explain why things are the way they are. If he was just naturally anti-social, he wouldn't be trusted as a werewolf. No werewolf should ever be left completely alone because of the ripple effect that I mentioned earlier.

And lay off the insults. Just because I don't automatically conform to your will doesn't mean there's something wrong with me, OK? I'm trying to be respectful, I would appreciate it if you could do the same.

[JoshuaMadoc]

I used "Broccoli" as an analogous word, not an insult. Understand that I've thus far refrained myself from using much bigger and blatant expletives. The reason why I'm acting like a moron is because, from the way i'm reading your posts, you're making it seem like limiting the possibilities in the scenarios to just a mere mouthful is imperative to creating your vision of quality work, so i felt the need to question your intentions.

[Kzinistzerg]

Well on the subject of threats, if the pack has to remove other werewolves quietly they may have to train to have an advantage over the other werewolves. Think: if there's some sort of "OOH, me want kill" think involved with being a werewolf, there may be strays that go off and eat people who have to be removed, quietly, and the pack might need the advantage.

[Terastas]

Well on the subject of threats, if the pack has to remove other werewolves quietly they may have to train to have an advantage over the other werewolves. Think: if there's some sort of "OOH, me want kill" think involved with being a werewolf, there may be strays that go off and eat people who have to be removed, quietly, and the pack might need the advantage.

The advantage would be maintaining their strength in numbers. The pack would always have the advantage over any splinter groups of werewolves as long as they continued to work together as one. Just as it's in a werewolf's best interest to know what all the other werewolves are up to, it's also in his best interest to get along with as many other werewolves as possible.

Kitetsu: It's called realism. If you wrote a book and/or made a movie involving kung-fu werewolves, these are the questions your editors, critics and audience would be asking too. A werewolf being able to learn kung-fu without good reason and without the rest of his pack's awareness would involve lots and lots of inexplicable plot devices, which based on what I saw in the werewolf cliches thread, I assumed were among the Pack's absolute biggest of gripes.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Kitetsu: It's called realism. If you wrote a book and/or made a movie involving kung-fu werewolves, these are the questions your editors, critics and audience would be asking too. A werewolf being able to learn kung-fu without good reason and without the rest of his pack's awareness would involve lots and lots of inexplicable plot devices, which based on what I saw in the werewolf cliches thread, I assumed were among the Pack's absolute biggest of gripes.

Yes. I know that part already, but it is my belief that a plot being written by the hands of a writer, who knows his/her techniques well, has the knowledge, knows how to avoid cliches or create anti-cliches, and has good execution skills would go to absolute waste if the options are so very few.

[Terastas]

Yes. I know that part already, but it is my belief that a plot being written by the hands of a writer, who knows his/her techniques well, has the knowledge, knows how to avoid cliches or create anti-cliches, and has good execution skills would go to absolute waste if the options are so very few.

A good enough writer could convince his readers that the Earth is triangular, but that doesn't mean he has to, nor does it mean it was a good idea in the first place. Besides, why would you write an entire story/script with only the intention of having a werewolf that knows kung-fu? You'd be better of skipping the plot and just making it nice and campy.

And who said I was trying to limit werewolves? If a werewolf is confronted by another werewolf, a man with a gun or some other kind of adversary, he's not obligated to handle the situation with Matrix-esque fighting moves. When I'm writing, it's the characters that are at a disadvantage that I have more fun writing about in peril; they're the ones that always wind up surprising the readers with their resourcefulness. By putting limitations on your characters, you eliminate any cliche "easy outs" they may have, make the dangers more real and open up many more interesting alternatives (why would have gone through all that trouble if he could just kung-fu his way out?).

If anything, you restrict your characters more by overpowering them. Ever watch Hellsing or Dragonball Z? Gets a bit repetitive after a while, doesn't it?

[RedEye]

Not Triangular!!! Tetrapodial surfaced! Think: four-sided die; it appears triangular on all four sides... Unless you're saying the Earth is flat, it can't be triangular.

Sorry- this is a sore point with me. I'll shut up now.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Ever watch Hellsing or Dragonball Z? Gets a bit repetitive after a while, doesn't it?

I don't see this as repetitive.




DBZ, yes, Hellsing Ultimate, not so much.

Besides, why would you write an entire story/script with only the intention of having a werewolf that knows kung-fu?

It's only detracting if it's the sole intention.

[Terastas]

My point in bringing those two up was that they both involve an overpowered protagonist. Alucard is so powerful that they have to continually add new super villains into the mix just to keep him interesting. Same thing with DBZ -- at its peak, Goku and his superfoes were so overpowered that blowing up the entire planet became standard to the series.

If you want a werewolf that knows kung-fu in your story, he either needs to be the antagonist, or he has to be contrasted by a threat of equal or greater value than any the kung-fu werewolf could pose. That goes for writing technique, and realism; like I said earlier, if there was a truly legitimate threat to the pack, they would have to eventually take some precautions to defend themselves and possibly support the pursuit of deadlier training, but just a desire to be tougher than your fellow man would never be acceptable.

And while it may only be detracting if it's the sole intention, if you don't do a good enough job explaining it, it becomes a cheap plot device. Explaining how a werewolf learned kung-fu without a legitimate cause while avoiding it becoming a detraction or a cheap plot device would be one hell of a balancing act.

[JoshuaMadoc]

My point in bringing those two up was that they both involve an overpowered protagonist. Alucard is so powerful that they have to continually add new super villains into the mix just to keep him interesting. Same thing with DBZ -- at its peak, Goku and his superfoes were so overpowered that blowing up the entire planet became standard to the series.

So, if i made a 7-century-old werewolf hailing from England with experience in his family's style of Pankration and weaponry, lives a somewhat lonely life because he's afraid of humans, and is dating a human girl because she insists on getting him to confront his fears in a mundane environment isn't interesting?

If he knew those combat skills, that would make him a practitioner of military arts, right? But since i've seen real photographers and historians who're also gun and martial arts practitioners, what would that make them?

If you want a werewolf that knows kung-fu in your story, he either needs to be the antagonist, or he has to be contrasted by a threat of equal or greater value than any the kung-fu werewolf could pose. That goes for writing technique, and realism; like I said earlier, if there was a truly legitimate threat to the pack, they would have to eventually take some precautions to defend themselves and possibly support the pursuit of deadlier training, but just a desire to be tougher than your fellow man would never be acceptable.

Bolded: Uh, Yes and no. Saying that a werewolf who knows a form of martial arts should be an antagonist is like saying that every medieval knight shouldn't learn MANDATORY grappling as a defensive measure against disarmament because it doesn't involve a weapon. And i only bring up this scenario of diluting individual strength to equal levels because it's something inevitable that can happen at any time, though not all the time.

And while it may only be detracting if it's the sole intention, if you don't do a good enough job explaining it, it becomes a cheap plot device. Explaining how a werewolf learned kung-fu without a legitimate cause while avoiding it becoming a detraction or a cheap plot device would be one hell of a balancing act.

If Takeshi Kitano can make millions more Kikujiro movies, then anyone can do or try the same thing. So yes, it's a balancing act.

[Terastas]

Bolded: Uh, Yes and no. Saying that a werewolf who knows a form of martial arts should be an antagonist is like saying that every medieval knight shouldn't learn MANDATORY grappling as a defensive measure against disarmament because it doesn't involve a weapon. And i only bring up this scenario of diluting individual strength to equal levels because it's something inevitable that can happen at any time, though not all the time.

OK, you went out of your way to miss the point this time, and I'm starting to think you went out of your way to ridicule me with something that doesn't even compare either.

Something inevitable? We already covered that; why would a werewolf need to know how to kick someone's head off when he can already turn into a gestalt? Yes, a werewolf may have to defend himself, but what could possibly be so bad a werewolf could only ninja kick his way out of it?

My point was in reference to the very essence of plot: Conflict. Your antagonist should be one that poses a legitimate threat to the protagonist(s). A werewolf that knows kung-fu could be a legitimate threat to a normal human or a werewolf without combat training, but if you wanted a kung-fu werewolf as a protagonist, you'd have to come up with that much more threatening an antagonist to contrast him.

And why are you still assuming that a werewolf would want to know kung-fu just for the sake of knowing it? "Gee Sparky, why are you so interested in knowing how to decapitate me with your bare hands? Well, OK, in that case, I would like a copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook. No, I'm not going to read it, just something to leave out on the coffee table when I'm entertaining."

People only want something when they intend to use it, and when people have something, there is always the temptation to use it. So please, for the love of God, don't ever tell me again that a werewolf might want to empower themselves just because they can.

[JoshuaMadoc]

And why are you still assuming that a werewolf would want to know kung-fu just for the sake of knowing it?

Oh, i don't know, maybe because all these years of living as a shut-in with imagination as my best friend has poisoned my logic with the idea that fantasy and reality have to coexist.

People only want something when they intend to use it, and when people have something, there is always the temptation to use it. So please, for the love of God, don't ever tell me again that a werewolf might want to empower themselves just because they can.

Fine. I was getting tired of having my autism get in my way of explaining anyway. Besides, it's when werewolves use their martial arts skills for common motives like blackmail that it starts getting less insignificant.

[Bubbleentity]

OK, to add another facet to this, another pet peeve, why does having a character with a little martial arts background suddenly make them some form of ' blackbelt, nth dan, ubersoldat' I mean, where is the less experienced characters? ( not just ww related, but damn people, a tiny amount of realism please)

that said, I think that being a shape-shifter in most senses would be a hindrance to martial arts, not just in terms of training for it. but in term of physiological structures.
Unless the shifter was in a magical 'blink' between forms style, it would take at least a couple of minutes to move between forms, leaving the shifter partly immobilized in that time. For example bones would need to lengthen or shorten, or change dimensions in other ways. during the time when said bone is changing shape there would likely be gaps or soft spots in them, that are otherwise not there. broken bones anyone.

I would expect for a shifter to be successful in martial arts, shifting would have to be sequential, and the shifter would have to learn to protect the parts that were changing at the time when the change is active in that area. I suspect, no mean feat.

I'm not sure that i am making sense, but , oh well

[RedEye]

You know, we can debate this until the cows come home-and not resolve anything.
It could go either way: Rawr-Fu or just plain pummeling for contact defence.
So...let me twist the thread a little here: In a fight, who do you think would win?
Rawr-Fu vs. Pummeling; Kung-Fu (in a Smoothskin) vs. Pummeling (in Werewolf); Rawr-Fu( Werewolf) vs: Kung-Fu (or similar disciplines in the Smoothskin).

Who'd win?

[Terastas]

Besides, it's when werewolves use their martial arts skills for common motives like blackmail that it starts getting less insignificant.

Well there we go. See? So there really is a reason for everything. Nobody ever wants something for no reason whatsoever, but people say they do all the time because they don't want to admit what they really want it for. If a pack is smart enough and resourceful enough to go undetected in today's modern world, they should also be smart enough to know there's a reason for everything and never to accept "no reason" or "just because" as an answer.

So sooner or later, the pack would eventually find out that a werewolf has been studying hand-to-hand combat, and sooner or later, they'd find out why too. And God help the poor sod that was going to risk exposing the pack just for something petty like blackmail.

[Rhuen]

I know martial arts, and I learned all my kicks as digitride strikes, I find it has more "oomph" when kicking off the ground that way(especially with knee hits). Depends on the build of the person's feet and how practiced they are at it.

I would find a werewolf born one and grew up as one training to fight could easily have their own martial arts style. not that far-fetched especially when many of the great martial arts were originally imitations of animal strikes. In fact it could even be more effective than human martial arts, longer reach, more impact, faster recoil, in-built weapons being a major plus.

After all in these things we see cat-people constantly trained as ninja and such so why not also a well built werewolf, not like they all have to be berserkers.

As for Darkstalkers, beaten to the example. Jon Talbain was trained as a martial artist before being a werewolf, and re-learned after being tought by a half-demon master how to take advantage of his darkstalker form to its full advantage in martial arts. Most werewolves in that series are the basic berserkers.

[heartlessfang]

LOOOOOOVE~ Martial arts and werewolves is so made of win.
My opinion on the argument: depends on the individual, depends on the situation, and depends on the story.
I think it would be interesting, but it would mostly be reserved for werewolves who have to kill other werewolves on a regular basis and have to specialize in killing. Erasers! yay!

But I would use Martial arts in a story mostly for inner peace and learning self control in any situation. Even if one is bigger and stronger than another and derives their confidence from that, where does that all go to if you can't hit the target or they basically start kicking your butt? Wouldn’t a normal individual get frustrated and fly into a rage at that and make the said individual an even bigger target? /ramble

As for RedEye-san's post here's my take:

Rawr-Fu > Pummeling;
Kung-Fu (in a Smoothskin*assumed is a master*) = Pummeling (in Werewolf);
Rawr-Fu( Werewolf) < Kung-Fu (or similar disciplines in the Smoothskin*assumed is a master*).

More or less, but In the world of fighting all of these could go either way depending on the situation. Since I consider those using Rawr-fu are in berserk mode, they arent thinking very clearly about what they are doing. SO a human thinking clearly can probably outsmart/out fight a rage mode werewolf under the right conditions.


Here’s my thing: How would a martial artist fight against an 8 foot or so werewolf? what would be the best ways to attack? Or rather as fighters/practitioners of martial arts, how would YOU all handle hand-to-paw combat against a werewolf? What would be a painful place for a werewolf to suffer damage?

Me? I would use the same tactics against a heavier/larger/stronger person than myself. Destroy the joints and attack the legs for those who are in bipedal mode. Maybe break an arm or two when a slash comes my way.....against those who are on all fours it comes down to reading movements, and studying how dogs fight/play I know how to move or how they attack..........

How much more would a broken nose hurt for a werewolf than a human? Since it would be thousands of time stronger?

okay i'm done.......

[Wselfwulf]

I think a werewolf martial arts style that incorporated rapid shifting/de-shifting would be rather novel, right? On a marginally related note.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1cHynIX ... re=related

My favourite would be number 3.

[heartlessfang]

*ahem* THAT WAS AWESOME!!!!!!!

[Terastas]

Here’s my thing: How would a martial artist fight against an 8 foot or so werewolf? what would be the best ways to attack? Or rather as fighters/practitioners of martial arts, how would YOU all handle hand-to-paw combat against a werewolf? What would be a painful place for a werewolf to suffer damage?

Tony Jaa demonstrates.

Also, that's the first time I ever read Jon Talbain's backstory. Usually I'd brush Darkstalkers off as a bad example since it employs that heavily exaggerated Street Fighter-esque kind of action, but what you just said plays right into what I was saying earlier: that a werewolf would have to relearn martial arts in were form (there's more to account for than just the digitgrade stance), but that he could pursue training freely without any objection in the face of a greater adversary.

I could envision a pack encouraging their members to study martial arts, but in human form; a means for them to defend themselves without exposing their nature, not a way to make their already dangerous werewolf form even more dangerous.

Unless, of course, as I said above, they had a legitimate threat. Talbain and the werewolves from Underworld had some very real foes to contend with that were more than a match for them even with their combat training. A couple of idiot Helsing wannabes should not warrant such drastic measures.

[Noir-Okami]

I'm in Karate, and they teach the whole 'only attack if you are attacked' thing. Many fighting styles (besides boxing, I think...) focus on attacking when attacked. You can be kicked out of dojos if you were found to have harmed someone when they didn't harm you. (Luckily, I always pull my punches and kicks, so it becomes mock fighting. )

So the whole thing about someone rebelling is highly unlikely at best.
Some of the stances and techniques are impossible for anyone standing digitigrade.

[RedEye]

One of the reasons we see so much of the Temple in things like Kung-Fu, Karate, Aki-do, and the related combat forms is because the forms were a type of meditation.
Learning to ignore the body by working the body into a Master of Combat seems counter intuitive; but many generations of dedicated martial artists have done just that.
There is also the sense of inner peace that comes from knowing you can turn any adversary into moaning hamburger without working up a sweat.

There are actually two general systems of unarmed (or armed) combat out there. There are the Spiritual ones...those we already have discussed nearly to death. Then there are the simple Kick-Tail ones that are taught to security professionals; Krav Maga* being the most common form now.
Either version would give superiority over an untrained Werewolf, simply because the trained person uses the assailant's strength against them. That would put the eight-foot Werewolf at a disadvantage simply because he was so big.
My opinion is that some Packs would use various forms of Unarmed Combat as tools to get new Werewolves to balance and move properly. By teaching how to disable by, say, kicking the daylights out of somebody rather than clawing or biting them, the Secret would be maintained much more easily. Being Kung-Fu'd by a Werewolf would make the victim seriously question what happened simply because it didn't go with what was expected. No bites, no claw-marks...was that really a big wolf-like guy or not?
*Krav Maga: Israeli Security unarmed combat. Nasty. Effective. Non-Spiritual. It actually uses common Karate and Kung-Fu moves against the person using them!

[Grey]

This is an intresting thread.

I belive that even if your a Grand Master of a certian martial arts style. It's not going to matter if the style doesn't mesh well with your were forms. Granted that in hybrid mode, you would prolly still hold enough human form to continue with your skills intact. But remmber your trainning was in a form that may have been diffrent in terms of muscle mass, and speed. So I guess train in were form in private.

I think though most were wolves are self taught. Learning to fight on thier own the way they belive a wolf would aswell as trial end error. And if you think about it, a wolf's senses are more fine tuned. There are martial artists out there who spend years trainning blind folded to develope a highten sense of awareness. But most only focus on one aspect of thier senses. A wolf would use thier sense of hearing, smell, and touch. And in were mode, these senses would be very powerful.

But I belive if the style meshs with all forms, then thats a good thing.