Werewolf and Kungfu

[Uniform Two Six]

White Wolf's "Werewolf: The Apocalypse" postulated an imaginary martial art form, "Kalindo." It's about the only fictional martial art style I know off the top of my head designed specifically for lycanthropes.

You forgot Klaivaskar and Isskaku.

[Werewolf Warrior]

okay O.o' soooo.....the werewolf in Dark Stalkers is a master of Ti-quan-doe?

[Grey]

I guess. If thats Tai Kwon Do, and not just a bunch of stock fighting moves.

[RedEye]

Very likely a new Wulf would be started in Tai-Chi-Ch'uan, which is mostly slowed down White Crane Kung-Fu movments. The intent in Tai-Chi is to gain balance and grace, which a person who has gone from Plantigrade (heel walking) to Digitigrade (toe walking) would need desperately.
IRL, a newly Crossed Werewolf would spend a lot of time on their A...Bottom, since the balance is very much different when you are walking on your toes. You start to lose your balance, correct, re-correct, then boom! since your new reflexes are too fast for your mind to use right now.
It would look sort of like Werewolf Ballet, with a lot of pratfalls involved. Eventually the Wulf would get their balance back.

Hmmm...maybe that's why the new Werewolf always lurches around in the movies...no balance.

[Terastas]

Very likely a new Wulf would be started in Tai-Chi-Ch'uan, which is mostly slowed down White Crane Kung-Fu movments. The intent in Tai-Chi is to gain balance and grace, which a person who has gone from Plantigrade (heel walking) to Digitigrade (toe walking) would need desperately.

Hm. I hadn't thought of that. Theoretically, encouraging Tai-Chi or some other passive/relaxing practice might also suffice to distinguish the would-be rawr-fu master's motive, ie: people intending to abuse the art would be less patient with it.

I guess the only reason I have left to disbelieve in the Tai-Chi master werewolf is. . . Well, Tai-Chi, yoga, whatever your meditation art may be, it usually takes years for even the most gifted of individuals to master it. What I'm presuming is that a werewolf in a present-day setting would have too much on his plate to properly dedicate himself to any craft of any kind. Dabble in it, yes, but not enough for it to be very relevant.

Don't mean to keep repeating myself, but I don't want it to look like I'm trying to shoot down the martial arts completely, so I will this one time: In a setting where werewolves could move freely in the open and/or were organized enough to constitute a society, then they may be able to find the time and support needed to devote themselves to mastership of the craft. I just can't envision that happening in a present-day setting among normal (well, as normal as a werewolf can be) people. It would be nice if they had all the time to do all these wonderful things, but they have to sleep sometimes too, don't they?

[RedEye]

Personally, I practice Tai-Chi in my bedroom, and the place is crowded.

[Grey]

What intrests me is how some martial arts styles are based after animals who are in nature, selfish, violant, destructive, or act cruel. (i'm not knocking any styles) And these animals are used as examples of Strength, speed, cunning, honor, and grace.

A were wolf sporting an outtfit with a Tiger Patch on it would be concidered a hypocrisy. Seeing as the animals fighting disiplins are polar opposites.

[Wingman]

Edit: And I completely didn't see Page 3 until now, way to pay attention, me.


First of all, I have to speculate as to what martial arts you guys are talking about. As is, this sounds a lot like some parallel universe where you're playing Exalted and debating if Lunars should be able to use Celestial Martial Arts while shapeshifted.
I'm not really sure where Martial Arts would really overpower a werewolf, unless the werewolf is already overpowered and doesn't know it. A MA isn't going to make you an unstoppable combat god that renders your opponents to ground beef with a wag of your tail...unless you're playing Exalted. In almost all cases, a werewolf learning "Martial Arts" would be the same as Bruce Banner and his training. Sure, he's the effing Hulk, and he's learning martial arts...OH NOES EVERYBODY RUN! Oh, wait. It has no more effect upon his combat effectiveness than upon a normal human.

Martial Arts do not an immortal make, ask Bruce Lee, or several hundred generations of "ninjas" who are now dead. DBZ or Hellsing are piss poor examples of what letting a werewolf learn martial arts should be like, again unless you're playing Exalted or so far away from reality that it's easier for the werewolves to cast spells.
Cinematic martial arts, and combat in general, is usually not entirely accurate. Sad as it is, a diet extremely low in fiber is not going to make you super sayian.

The main question here is why. Why would a werewolf learn a martial art in an inhuman form? Why should a werewolf learn a martial art in an inhuman form, and lastly, why should our concept of "martial art" even apply to their style of fighting.
It seems to largely be a Kung Fu vs Sumo wresting issue. The majority of humanity does not have the raw physical might or size to make going Sumo inherently an easier and better choice than Kung Fu. On the other hand, gestalt form werewolves almost always have that "Grr, Hulk Smash!" strength. Even if they are faster than their human counterparts, I've yet to see one that is faster than it is strong, unless you account for things like anime and manga where strength and speed are unrealistic from the get-go.
If you absolutely had to go for an anime/manga equivalent, check out Claymore as an example. The power is there for them to use, but go too far and they're up the creek trying to paddle with lobster claws or without opposable thumbs. The situation equates rather well to werewolves having to maintain any level of secrecy, or having even slightly bad tempers. Werewolf martial arts would be more about being able to use that power without losing control than they would being able to crush bricks or utilize a human balance system with an inhuman body.

If anything, they would be learning a Hunting Style, exploring their abilities and themselves, rather than learning to crush bricks with their hands or do unblockable scorpion kicks. The closest they would likely come to a martial art would be some grappling, the fine art of knowing what to break to make people scream, and general expansion of self awareness.

As is, I fail to see the benefit of perfecting your roundhouse kick as opposed to spending time learning how to be an all-around more effective combatant.
What we're doing is personifying something that is inherently inhuman. I know, it's a habit, but I see a lot of "People with fur and claws" as opposed to "werewolf" mentality applied to this discussion. That's not a bad thing, but this issue could use a different angle from which to be viewed.
In fact, Bruce Banner (circa Edward Norton) is pretty much, to me, a perfect example of what a werewolf learning a martial art would be like. But, if you go for the fluffy bunny werewolves then I guess it makes sense for them to be trying to emulate human movements with an inhuman body.

For the most part, traditional human martial arts would only have increased effect if the werewolf has heightened abilities in human form, or a form very, very similar to human form. As in: Same mode of walking, same limbs and physiology.
Just imagine an Underworld gestalt werewolf busting out some spinning heel kicks, or making with the karate chops. The concept might look good on paper, not so much in practice. Even if you didn't like the cosmetics, they are closer to the general gestalt imagery than they are different. In human form, or in a near-human form, such as Michael exhibited, then human martial arts start to apply a little better. You're best off playing the hand you're holding, sure the supposed heightened senses of gestalt form would make you an unbeatable motorcycle racer, but just try justifying why a gestalt form werewolf would be on a motorcycle. I dare you, just one genuinely good reason that does not boil down to "Because...", or munchkin minmaxing urges.

And I'll shut up now, though I do hope someone takes my ideas into consideration.

[JoshuaMadoc]

The main question here is why. Why would a werewolf learn a martial art in an inhuman form? Why should a werewolf learn a martial art in an inhuman form, and lastly, why should our concept of "martial art" even apply to their style of fighting.

*cough*



*walks away*

[Grey]

There's really no real reason. I mean, your a 400 pound beaste made of fur, and muscle. But it's the idea that one can better themselves through martial arts, and learn to control thier strength in combat, through sparring, and real matchs. So you don't always have to fall back on mualing's, and savage beatings.

Though i think it all depends on the were's physical needs, that decide what style of martial arts to take.

[Werewolf Warrior]

There's really no real reason. I mean, your a 400 pound beaste made of fur, and muscle. But it's the idea that one can better themselves through martial arts, and learn to control thier strength in combat, through sparring, and real matchs. So you don't always have to fall back on mualing's, and savage beatings.

Though i think it all depends on the were's physical needs, that decide what style of martial arts to take.

400 pounds of muscle? O.o' If I had that much I would have a hard time scratching my back, and trying to get my neighbors cat away from my face.

[JoshuaMadoc]

A were wolf sporting an outtfit with a Tiger Patch on it would be concidered a hypocrisy. Seeing as the animals fighting disiplins are polar opposites.

Does the wolf have the personality of a tiger -- energetic, strong-willed, etc.? If so, then there's nothing hypocritical about representing one's personality rather than one's physical form.

Another thing... If someone with that much weight doesn't know how to be careful with its own direction and balance, it might be very susceptible to redirective counters and throws. Even werewolves should be aware of that.

[Vagrant]

I think others have touched upon this, but I'd like to add my thoughts.

One would imagine that a wulfish chap is granted more than form as a part of their ascent (or curse, whichever you'd wish to call it), they can now shift into different forms, new physical elements are added. If the werewolf condition is viral at all, then I would imagine that it wouldn't be too far-fetched to consider that a brain dump of information, not even quite so basic, would be left in their minds. This would be akin to the genetic memory of insect hives, it would simply be a "factory default".

What would then be interesting is how the were in question takes that knowledge, that pre-existing experience, and adds individuality to it. Perhaps wolven fighting styles could even be based on teachings that start off by making use of these default factory settings, so many of the fighting styles may even have their training start off the same way. Due to that, said styles may indeed be very different to the martial fighting styles that humans use, but no less valid regardless.

That's what I would personally find interesting in a story: I'm a werewolf, the same as everyone else. I've gained things by becoming a werewolf, and I'm now a much more dynamic entity capable of learning from the cultural potentia laid out before me. Which path do I choose? It'd take the stress away from having to learn the very basics, too. Perhaps even the best of people may be sick of training in martial styles if they need to do that to even learn how to walk.

I can see how it would make sense in a more realistic way, if perhaps the virus/curse/thingydoofer was physical in nature alone, but for a werewolf story that involved kung-fu, that's the approach I'd prefer to see.

[Grey]

When you consider how powerful a wolves hind legs would be, I would say Kick boxing might be an option.

[Vagrant]

...now I really want to see a street-fighting woof do a roundhouse.

I really don't have much to add other than that, but that's some great mental imagery, there, Grey.

[W'rkncacnter]

I'd like to offer my opinion on why a werewolf would want to learn martial arts before I discuss the abilities of one that does have the skills. I've got a few, and most of them are the same reasons that humans would want to learn martial arts:
1. Discipline. Being a werewolf is about walking a tightrope between your human and animal instincts. As George Carlin humorously put it, the human mind is divided into three brains: the primate brain, the mammalian brain, and the reptilian brain. the primate brain says, "give peace a chance". The mammalian brain says, "give peace a chance, but first, let's kill this motherf***er". George Carlin was not known for intelligent debate, but he does mate a point in recognizing the conflicting instincts of a civilized individual. A werewolf has this conflict magnified; the ability to shift into a form that most would describe as 'beastly' would probably give the violent, primal thoughts in one's mind a louder voice than normal, if you get my drift.

Martial arts are often used as a form of anger management: controlled breathing, rigorous exertion through exercise and other training methods help reduce stress. A werewolf may want to learn such skills to help control his more animalistic side.

2. Fitness. Just because you're a werewolf does not mean you are healthy. I would think that a man who is fat as a human would be fat shifted as well, though it wouldn't be as apparent through all the fur. Many people learn martial arts to train their body as well as their fighting capability; I personally took karate lessons to lose weight some time ago, and it did work.

3. Advantage. Now I get the idea that learning martial arts to fight humans with is kind of silly, considering the already apparent strength and (depending on your brand of wolf) size difference. But what about other werewolves? Surely a wolf with some decent fighting skill is better in a melee than a wolf who is just flailing about. Though all the combatants may now have claws, it would still make sense to know how to use those claws better than the next guy.

Now for what styles might be best for a wolf:

Grappling: styles that emphasis the use of open-handed maneuvers, such as Muay Thai, Bear style Kung Fu, and others, would be more suited for a shifted werewolf than the traditional human methods of fighting. This is because it would make better use of his claws and (again, depending on your brand of wolf) eliminate the problem that may come from being unable to ball a paw-like hand into a fist.

Kicking: a quadrupedal leg can deliver a lot more kicking force than a bipedal leg of the same weight and muscle mass (if you want evidence, go talk to a kangaroo or an ostrich). A werewolf employing a style whose emphasis lies in the realm of kicks and such would be able to make the best use of his improved kicking strength.

That having been said, I think a werewolf could make the best use of his natural talents in the Brazilian martial art of Capoeira. While it places greater emphasis on the word 'art' than most fighting disciplines, with ritualized dance and music being part of training and festivities, Capoeira is still a strong fighting style that employs sweeps, kicks, grapples, and headbutts to down a foe, with minimal emphasis on hand strikes and punches; definitely the kind of thing a werewolf might be into.

[JoshuaMadoc]

... Is there anyone BUT me who took the spiritual and philosophical aspects of martial arts into account for this subject? Or are werewolves just meant to be incapable of acknowledging those concepts? @_@

[Vagrant]

To my mind, I think they'd be as capable as anyone.

I suppose the only question I'd have given what you've said would be to the relevance. Why would a were desire to seek out further spirituality than what they already have, and why would any inclination towards philosophy be related?

The only thing I can think of is if the human, before they were a were, was either of a very traditional Asian upbringing, or simply a person who took great interest in such things. Or is that what you're getting at?

What I'm saying is: Why would turning require the were to pick up spirituality that can be physically enacted and expressed? If you meant as I said though, that it's because they're already into it, then I retract all of that.

It's not a criticism, I'm genuinely curious.

If we're talking about spirituality and philosophy, we don't necessarily need to be talking about martial arts at all, unless that's an individual choice. But I'm retreading ground here, so I'll leave it at that.

[RodolfoGurenaito]

The best style for a lycan is what works. If a specific move from a specific art works, take it. Fighting as a wolf would require only imaginative adaptation of what one knows as a human.
And, if you subsribe to the spiritual-heritage idea of lycanthropy, one could use ancient memories of arts developed when the earth was a lot less crowded and nosy.

[heartlessfang]

No you aren't kitetsu-san......Maybe the combat applications of martial arts are just more popular among non-practitioners.... I would say the self control and inner peace aspects of martial arts would be more beneficial to a wolf than combat....I'm not sure about other styles but I know that my style's main point is learning NOT to fight.

[JoshuaMadoc]

All I'm saying is that spiritual introspection doesn't end or peak in dramatic throbbing transformation, shouldn't require a wolf of pure asian upbringing, and certainly shouldn't separate itself from martial arts which practically means "the art of movement" as my master taught me. He also says if there's none of the spiritual wisdom in a martial art, then it's just "martial". Kind of like if a wolf ignores the wisdom behind the art it's learning for whatever, then it'll just be an even greater (or stupider) wild beast with teeth and claws far too large and long for its own comfort.

I dunno, my head f*** hurts thinking about this. Whatever.

[Grey]

It's more importent to develope the mind then the body. Especially for a young were who is starting to develope into a full flegged were wolf.

[Terastas]

All I'm saying is that spiritual introspection doesn't end or peak in dramatic throbbing transformation, shouldn't require a wolf of pure asian upbringing, and certainly shouldn't separate itself from martial arts which practically means "the art of movement" as my master taught me.

I think the issue is that, while you can't (or at least shouldn't) take the spiritual introspection out of the martial arts, you can take the martial arts out of the spiritual introspection. We already just mentioned Tai-Chi and yoga as spiritual alternatives to the martial arts, and if we had forever, we could probably name a hundred more.

Which brings us right back to something I said on Page 1 of this thread:

I suppose a werewolf could try to excuse it as a form of meditation like RedEye suggested, but that'd be a hard sell. I figure at least one werewolf would have the foresight to ask why the werewolf can't look into alternative meditative arts.

So while I don't think anyone here is trying to deny that there is spiritual value in martial arts, it's the physical value that I assume would be the motivation of anyone eager to learn.

[Grey]

I guess you could also look at the whole thing in terms of "even if your a huge hulk in wolf form, that doesn't mean anything if your human form has no fighting skills."

[Werewolf Warrior]

I guess so, when it comes to a marvel comic, or something.