Werewolf and Kungfu

Ookami-kun · Post by **Ookami-kun** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:07 am

I was wondering - how would a werewolf perform as a martial artist. Not the human form of course. I mean, isn't it rather redundant the werewolf always performs the "BERSERKER ATTACKS RAWR!"

This is why Jon Talbain is awesome! Kung-fu werewolf ftw!

Scott Gardener · Post by **Scott Gardener** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:19 pm

Martial arts employs efficiency of motion and direction of force, so that one can either, depending on one's existing perceptions:
1. Become substantially stronger, or
2. Reach one's actual strength, giving the appearance of having become substantially stronger than one really is.

Either way, a werewolf is already enhanced. Throw in knowing how to take human body specs and crush bricks with one's bare hands, then the result could be pretty scary.

White Wolf's "Werewolf: The Apocalypse" postulated an imaginary martial art form, "Kalindo." It's about the only fictional martial art style I know off the top of my head designed specifically for lycanthropes.

As for how such a style might look...

The heel is often used in foot-heavy styles like Tae Kwon Do. Moving it up in a digitigrade posture could modify Gestalt form kicks accordingly for bludgeoning purposes, though it would also add a sharp, pointy kick using the distant claws. The tail as counterbalance and the digitigrade stance would allow for a pretty fast, whirlwind "never knew what hit them" attack. The stock ninjas wouldn't stand a chance.

Hands could chop, rake, or punch. With a big muzzle full of teeth, the head would cease to be the vulnerable spot to defend and become one of the main weapons. There would be the caveat about having to be judicious about biting, realizing its effects on surviving targets or sparring partners.

Endurance would be one of the big advantages. It's very tiring to fight. You see these fight seens that go on and on in movies. In reality, you get pooped after about two or three minutes. But, a wolf can go on for quite a long time.

Set · Post by **Set** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:43 pm

I think it could potentially be very awkward. Balance would be an issue. A lot of it would depend on the style used, as each is different, and how used to the non-human form the werewolf is. You can't do super flying ninja killing kicks when you can hardly walk. And as a martial artist, let me tell you something. It looks easy? It ISN'T. It takes years of training. Even if someone was an expert in whatever in their human form, it'd be a totally different thing as a werewolf.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:01 pm

Werewolves usually "berserker attack rawr" because you got a human who just got some new toys.

So, naturally, he's gonna use them fangs and claws. And naturally, he's not gonna really know how, and most humans aren't martial artists so their hand to hand combat amounts to "punch stuff" and "kick stuff" as well as "grab something and use that if possible".

Given that that digitgrade puts a werewolf on his toes and a wolf's tail isn't the world's best counter balance to such a unbalancing set of legs for upright posture any lycanthropic martial artist would be best avoiding kicks until he's very in tune with his balance. IE, stick to using that increase strength for some mixed boxing/claw strikes.

And use bites sparingly. Those put your neck and head in way too much danger to be of much use to a biped who isn't forcing his foe to the ground and ripping their throat out before they can muster a response. You're risking a strike to the head or neck.

And even a human could mess you up briefly if he punches you right in the windpipe. It only gets worse if he's armed in some manner.

JoshuaMadoc · Post by **JoshuaMadoc** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:32 pm

Time for Tekken Boy to butt in. *knucklecrack*

Scott Gardener wrote:Martial arts employs efficiency of motion and direction of force, so that one can either, depending on one's existing perceptions:
1. Become substantially stronger, or
2. Reach one's actual strength, giving the appearance of having become substantially stronger than one really is.

There's a lot more to martial arts than "just" being strong, such as inner peace, judgmental strength or spiritual strength. Shouldn't you know that better than i do, since you're a physicist?

Either way, a werewolf is already enhanced. Throw in knowing how to take human body specs and crush bricks with one's bare hands, then the result could be pretty scary.

Being able to crush bricks with one hand isn't exactly the best way to know how physically strong a martial artist is, and it takes a whole lot more than just genetic advantages for a martial artist to be formidable. There's also weak points to study, the many ways to use effective skills with minimal exhaustion, paying attention to the one spot of one or more people when executing the skills, assessing the situation at hand, the philosophies required to smooth the edges of one's mind, etc etc. A lycanthropic martial artist would most likely fare rather poorly if he/she used only his/her genetic advantages and most importantly, his/her habits, like too much movement or just one concentrated strike, against a flabby, middle-aged human martial arts genius who doesn't move further than an inch, and still be able to hit 10 times more frequently because he uses his whole body rather than one.

Subtlety can favor you a lot in martial arts.

White Wolf's "Werewolf: The Apocalypse" postulated an imaginary martial art form, "Kalindo." It's about the only fictional martial art style I know off the top of my head designed specifically for lycanthropes.

I think Kalindo is a very bad example of martial arts specifically designed for werewolves. Maybe because it's fictional, but i also have yet to read anything that's in-depth, apart from the hinduist belief of nirvana, and the brochure-style description of it that claims to give them more speed and all that.

As for how such a style might look...

The heel is often used in foot-heavy styles like Tae Kwon Do. Moving it up in a digitigrade posture could modify Gestalt form kicks accordingly for bludgeoning purposes, though it would also add a sharp, pointy kick using the distant claws. The tail as counterbalance and the digitigrade stance would allow for a pretty fast, whirlwind "never knew what hit them" attack. The stock ninjas wouldn't stand a chance.

The heel has a much bigger role than being a mere axehead. It can also help maneuvrability, assuming that a lycanthrope doesn't feel pain when putting the foot flat down and tilting the sole upward, like in Xinyiliuhequan. Don't forget that there's no rules in a situation outside a tournament -- you can heel another's foot, especially on the weaker area. And, uh, spinning for an unpredictable attack isn't exactly unpredictable...

Another thing is that real ninjas avoid fights as much as possible. They train predominantly for stealth, not weaboo animu fighting.

Hands could chop, rake, or punch. With a big muzzle full of teeth, the head would cease to be the vulnerable spot to defend and become one of the main weapons. There would be the caveat about having to be judicious about biting, realizing its effects on surviving targets or sparring partners.

Hands, like the heel, can do so much more than those 3 things. And Aki hit the nail to the coffin on the case of biting -- if you're not careful, you'll be very vulnerable on the neck.

Endurance would be one of the big advantages. It's very tiring to fight. You see these fight seens that go on and on in movies. In reality, you get pooped after about two or three minutes. But, a wolf can go on for quite a long time.

You know... There's one of many keys to creating the illusion of added endurance. One such way is to not pay attention to your body.

I do apologize if i sound like i have a vendetta against you, but with all due respects, your post had the most holes in this thread thus far.

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:34 pm

There's another thing to consider: even the most conservative form of Werewolf is not only stronger, but balanced differently from their Smooth form.
Since just about every martial art I've ever seen stresses balance as a major part of the system, I'd have to go along with Scott on this one; werewolves would have to develop their own martial arts systems simply because they're put together differently and have a different set of balances to deal with.
So; why the "Grawwwer-bite-claw" system we see in the flicks? It's usually some newby doing it because his/her Kung Pao (snrk) fighting system just doesn't work anymore. He's differently shaped, balanced, and has different strength regions. His old fighting style now is dumping him on his tail, more often than not. He goes for a heel-strike and then realizes he doesn't have a heel any more...Ka-THUD! He tries a hammer-fist and doesn't take his new reflexes and body into account and Ka-THUMP...on his face.
At that point, he completely loses his cool, and just goes for Grawwwerr-bite-claw; because that works!
Maybe he/she can find a Sensei, maybe not...but until then, I'll bet the Wulf will stick with what works, however trite it may be.

Ookami-kun · Post by **Ookami-kun** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:46 pm

How come werewolves have to be digitigraded though? I think I've seen some with normal feet. Also, certain werewolves aren't hunched.

I think Werewolves can go far in martial arts, primarily because of enhanced endurance, stamina and flexibility.

lol TALBAIN!

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:56 pm

Ookami-kun wrote:How come werewolves have to be digitigraded though? I think I've seen some with normal feet. Also, certain werewolves aren't hunched.

I think Werewolves can go far in martial arts, primarily because of enhanced endurance, stamina and flexibility.

lol TALBAIN!

Oh, yes-for certain...after a few years of in-their-fur practice. Take a black-belt Smoothskin, and Cross them Over to Wulfen, and you get thud-thud thud-boom! Balance, grasshopper!

Btw: Talbain is Digitigrade...

JoshuaMadoc · Post by **JoshuaMadoc** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:37 am

RedEye wrote:Btw: Talbain is Digitigrade...

Those feet are digitigrade? Are you sure?

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:51 am

Take another look at the bottom kick-no heel. The feet themselves have no heel-bulge; rather, they are sharp-angled at the ankle-sure sign of being Digitigrade.

He's doing a ball-of-foot strike, leading with what would be a heel if he were plaitigrade, but the strike itself is with the ball of the foot.

Plus, with the years of Aikido that I've practiced, I would never get my heels that far off the floor: way too tiring, and no benefit at all. Plus, it messes with the balance, the Ki.

I suspect the first strike (bottom kata, again) is more like an elbow strike than a heel strike, followed by a bludgeon strike with the foot.

JoshuaMadoc · Post by **JoshuaMadoc** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:14 am

Err... you do realize it could just be a style thing, right? Those soles are also pretty wide for it to be digitigrade, and being kicked by the balls of the feet by someone like Talbain can hurt just as much, if not more, than our balls of the feet, if you're implying that we shouldn't.

Here's what my acquaintance has to say:

Look at the goddamned feet! PEOPLE FEET! He is standing on his toes. That's all. If you were to do that right now? Your feet would look the same.

The other thing to note:

In Darkstalkers, a little ghost girl generates all sorts of projectiles from her sleeves, a mummy made of nothing but bandages moves around, a little boy controls a robot, and a cat sings and dances. It is, in no way shape or form, even semi-realistic.

And even though talbain has people feet, he's just as physically impossible as all the others.

Oh, and, a star is sentient, and doesn't just burn the f***ing atmosphere around it. Come on, Pyron is like the biggest affront to physics ever.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:23 am

I'm going to go with Scott etc. in that I don't think a werewolf would ever be seen performing martial arts. A werewolf might be able to learn martial arts so he can defend himself while in human form, but the gestalt form is so different that he couldn't apply the same fundamentals to it as a form developed with the human body in mind. Even a martial arts master would have to relearn the entire art, and what's worse, since there presumably aren't any kung-fu werewolves out there, he'd most likely have to teach it to himself. Unless it's in a sci-fi setting, I don't envision werewolves being organized enough that they could develop their own gestalt-style martial arts.

A werewolf would most likely find his comfort zone in boxing, wrestling, or some other form of self defense that doesn't rely on perfect balance and/or inner peace. I could only picture werewolves being organized enough to develop their own gestalt martial arts in a sci-fi world like the ones Scott and I are writing about. In a more down to earth "werewolves living quietly among us" scenario, it would never happen.

JoshuaMadoc · Post by **JoshuaMadoc** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:12 am

I'm going to go with Scott etc. in that I don't think a werewolf would ever be seen performing martial arts. A werewolf might be able to learn martial arts so he can defend himself while in human form, but the gestalt form is so different that he couldn't apply the same fundamentals to it as a form developed with the human body in mind.

Wouldn't that be the case if the werewolf in question had legs that were less human, though? My buddy was pretty sure that if the legs had a balanced mix, a werewolf can perform some feats, with a set of conditions. I believe that the core of the basics that make an art is what should matter, because, correct me if i'm wrong, but you're saying it like as if you need ALL fundamentals of an art for a werewolf to learn effectively.

Even a martial arts master would have to relearn the entire art, and what's worse, since there presumably aren't any kung-fu werewolves out there, he'd most likely have to teach it to himself.

Pardon my trivializing, but are you sure that's really a big problem? I mean, it can be extremely difficult to adapt by yourself, but it doesn't mean that it's impossible because the weight of the burden would be so heavy.

Unless, of course, you're not up to learning the dragon style of Pencak Silat, which takes 3 lifetimes to learn.

Unless it's in a sci-fi setting, I don't envision werewolves being organized enough that they could develop their own gestalt-style martial arts.

I think that's assuming the group in question are a bunch of proud skinheads, or belonging to some other ludicrous group.

A werewolf would most likely find his comfort zone in boxing, wrestling, or some other form of self defense that doesn't rely on perfect balance and/or inner peace.

My buddy also recommends Kajukenbo. I can probably recommend Vale Tudo myself.

I could only picture werewolves being organized enough to develop their own gestalt martial arts in a sci-fi world like the ones Scott and I are writing about. In a more down to earth "werewolves living quietly among us" scenario, it would never happen.

I'm going to give you my doubts, because frankly, i almost never believe in "never", even if the art winds up as crude as Count Dante.

MattSullivan · Post by **MattSullivan** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:54 pm

Rawr-Fu

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:51 pm

Perhaps a Were' or group of Were's wouldn't develop martial arts themselves, but if they already had the knowledge as Smoothskins, I'll bet they'd find a way to transfer it to their new forms.
If they're digitigrade, they already have good balance, (try running around on tip-toe for an example)- and if they have good balance, that's half the job right there.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:49 pm

RedEye wrote:If they're digitigrade, they already have good balance, (try running around on tip-toe for an example)- and if they have good balance, that's half the job right there.

You can run on your tiptoes, yes. But try kicking with your foot flat on the ground, then try kicking just as high while standing on your tiptoes. If you're like me, you should try it in either the center if your living room away from any furniture, or wear a helmet. Just because you can do simple things like run or go up and down stairs while digitgrade doesn't mean you can perform a perfect roundhouse kick or back flip.

And that's not taking into account the height, the tail, the claws, etc. None of us know what it's like to shapeshift, much less how easy/hard it is to try to do things in a body completely different from the one you had five minutes ago. The average person can't even perform the same feats with the opposite hand, much less a completely different set of hands altogether.

If someone did spend their entire life in gestalt form, then sure, they should be more capable because they would be more accustomed to their gestalt form than human form. But unless it's some kind of futuristic and/or alternate universe setting like the ones Scott and I are writing about, what are the chances of a werewolf being able to spend the majority of their time in gestalt form? I'm basing my assessments, not on what the gestalt form is physically capable of, but how long the brain would have time to adapt to the gestalt form.

The gestalt form might be faster and stronger, but the brain is still human, and anything the brain was programmed to do while in a human body wouldn't automatically translate into the gestalt form.

JoshuaMadoc · Post by **JoshuaMadoc** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:26 pm

I think the chances of a werewolf being able to spend the majority of their time in shifted form has just about the same probability of a martial artist getting one's a** handed down to a chump of similar build, meaning it comes down to situation, environment, and method of control.

I mean c'mon, the potential scenarios are supposed to be unscripted, not story-rigged.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:26 am

kitetsu wrote:I think the chances of a werewolf being able to spend the majority of their time in shifted form has just about the same probability of a martial artist getting one's a** handed down to a chump of similar build, meaning it comes down to situation, environment, and method of control.

I mean c'mon, the potential scenarios are supposed to be unscripted, not story-rigged.

Without being seen? Unless the werewolf was a hermit, a shut-in, or one of those hairy-caveman Teen Wolf variety werewolves, I seriously doubt he could spend the majority of his time in werewolf form without anyone noticing. Try wearing a funny hat for as long as you can without anyone noticing it; it's not as easy as it sounds.

Even more unlikely when you take into consideration a human being's natural tendency to wonder and wander. If a werewolf did isolate himself in the wilderness, it would still only be a matter of time before his friends/family start to wonder what happened to him or some little kid and/or fraternity boy goes out to his little shack in the woods on a dare.

Here's something else I just thought of that's worth considering:
Would the rest of the pack support a werewolf's decision to learn kung-fu in gestalt form?

Think about it: The consensus on werewolves is that they are tall, strong and possess sharp claws and fangs. Wouldn't adding kung-fu to that seem a little, I dunno. . . Excessive? In the face of a greater foe like in Underworld, it might be understandable, but in a pack just trying to stay undetected like in Freeborn, the only things I think they would want to teach themselves to be able to do in gestalt form is hide and run. A werewolf interested in perfecting his combat skills in gestalt form would be, to me, an indication of a werewolf eager to go all Darkwolf when they're ready.

With all that in mind, for a werewolf to learn martial arts, you'd have to build the entire plot and setting around it to explain how it came to be. If you factor in all the things that could go wrong and apply the fix to each and every one of them, that werewolf won't need kung-fu because he's already got the luck of the gods.

JoshuaMadoc · Post by **JoshuaMadoc** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:11 pm

Here's something else I just thought of that's worth considering:
Would the rest of the pack support a werewolf's decision to learn kung-fu in gestalt form?

I would say, yes. If they said no, it would've been on their own peril.

Think about it: The consensus on werewolves is that they are tall, strong and possess sharp claws and fangs. Wouldn't adding kung-fu to that seem a little, I dunno. . . Excessive? In the face of a greater foe like in Underworld, it might be understandable, but in a pack just trying to stay undetected like in Freeborn, the only things I think they would want to teach themselves to be able to do in gestalt form is hide and run. A werewolf interested in perfecting his combat skills in gestalt form would be, to me, an indication of a werewolf eager to go all Darkwolf when they're ready.

No, it wouldn't be excessive. It's human nature to fight to live, but it's also human nature to start petty wars for the most moronic of reasons, namely envy. Werewolves are partly human, after all, so they're not immune to such bullshittery. Why else did ninjas learn ninjitsu? So that when facing an opponent of greater strength, they can, as a last resort, use it against them when escape seems to be a futile option.

Morkulv · Post by **Morkulv** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:15 pm

I don't see why not.

Kzinistzerg · Post by **Kzinistzerg** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:17 pm

In response to Terastas' post, I have to agree. If you're training yourself up, that is a bit odd when you're already at a peak. Just what are you going to DO with this new knowledge?

To make this acceptable, the character has to have a motive for this. "Well, i wanna" just doesn't go over that well. Was that person interested in martial arts previous to the change? Do they do it in human form, and want to experiment in gestalt?

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:24 pm

Some people engage in Martial Arts as a form of Meditation; of Centering and Calming the mind and body.

It is very easy to be calm when you know you can turn your enemies into hamburger without breaking a sweat.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:20 am

kitetsu wrote:I would say, yes. If they said no, it would've been on their own peril.

Just the opposite I would say. If they say no and he responds with violence, they can still overpower him since he'll have the same potential in gestalt form as the rest of them. If they allow him to learn martial arts, they're giving him the potential to possibly overpower the rest of the pack.

I suppose a werewolf could try to excuse it as a form of meditation like RedEye suggested, but that'd be a hard sell. I figure at least one werewolf would have the foresight to ask why the werewolf can't look into alternative meditative arts.

Or worse, why it's absolutely essential that he do all his meditating in gestalt form. For the reasons RedEye described, I think werewolves would find themselves under more stress while in human form. For a pack to be going undetected in today's information superhighway-driven superparanoid society, they would have to have at least one member that's smart enough to see through that.

There is a pack in one of my stories that is criticized by the other neighboring packs for training their members in hand to hand combat (among other things), but that's in the face of an adversary; they make no secret of wanting to use such techniques but are pretty specific about who they intend to use them against. In times of peace, the gestalt form shouldn't need to be any more dangerous than it already is, and each pack should contain at least one member that's smart enough to question anything that could be used to make the gestalt form moreso.

JoshuaMadoc · Post by **JoshuaMadoc** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:28 am

Terastas wrote: Just the opposite I would say. If they say no and he responds with violence, they can still overpower him since he'll have the same potential in gestalt form as the rest of them. If they allow him to learn martial arts, they're giving him the potential to possibly overpower the rest of the pack.

Then i guess this is all a matter of choice, now, isn't it? The way i see it, this specific scenario is becoming more and more of a paradox, because like it or not, SOMEBODY'S gonna rebel, regardless of the reasons.

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:54 pm

There is something else to consider here: if combat is joined in the traditional manner of Grawr- you'd either have to kill or risk that person's becoming another Werewolf.
That is the basis of a huge number of Werewolf flicks-somebody recovers from a physical disagreement with a Werewolf, and we all know the rest of the formula...to death, literally.
If there were Were's it would make sense for them to develop a fighting system that would leave their enemies bashed, bruised, and broken-but not in danger of Crossing Over (becoming a Werewolf themselves).
That argues for some kind of fighting system that won't leave a dead body and get the cops all hot and bothered about, yet will take out someone intent on harming the Were'.
Hence: Grawr-Fu.

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