Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Chris »

Fastenjaw wrote:I want to give mention about the other extreme of it being labeled a "furry". While I emphasize that the term "furry" is not explicit, there are those unattractive materials that have stuck to the name. This is where much of the fear of the opposite really comes into play. And is what I suspect fans of the genre are most afraid of. People are scared about the thought of the werewolf being called a furry. Because the very thought of it would bring up some disturbing pictures that burn the brain cells. The word also conjures up other images of either being weak, emo, boring, socially inept, or a tail wagger that simply wants to play and love one another.

It sucks that the word furry has such a bad name... :cry:
I have no problems with furries, really. I like them, actually. But in my mind, there is some kind of undescribable line between a "wolf furry" and a werewolf. Technically speaking, most werewolves are wolf furries (furry = anthropomorphic animal, anthropomorphic = human qualities applied to non-human objects, etc). But, to me, when I hear the term "werewolf", it implies more than just the idea of "man/woman that changes into a wolf". Although that's technically all it really is, my mind makes certain assumptions about the missing details (generally extrapolated from my ideal, to fit the known details).
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by RedWolf »

>I have no problems with furries, really. I like them, actually. But in my mind, there is some kind of undescribable line between a "wolf furry" and a werewolf. Technically speaking, most werewolves are wolf furries.

Are you sure? Something like the original "Wolf Man" is clearly a human with some lupine qualities. However, how would you classify a quadrupedal werewolf, such as the one in "An American Werewolf in London"?

>(furry = anthropomorphic animal, anthropomorphic = human qualities applied to non-human objects, etc). But, to me, when I hear the term "werewolf", it implies more than just the idea of "man/woman that changes into a wolf".

What would you call something else that turns into a wolf? Many vampire stories feature lupine shapeshifting. You can blame Bram Stoker for linking vampires to wolves:

>>"Listen to them, the children of the night. What music they make!" Seeing, I suppose, some expression in my face strange to him, he added, "Ah sir, I suppose you dwellers in the city cannot enter into the feelings of the hunter."
[from http://www.vampgirl.com/lit-drac2.html]
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by IndianaJones »

You create your own fears, if you do not accept your new gift or curse. Also, if you are not ready for your nocturnal lycanthropy. Or you just dislike so much that you want to be normal again, because you do not want be a shapechanging monster or a hard life. The reason is, you are not ready yet.

If you are ready being a werewolf, then there you go, be proud of what you are! :howl:  :oo
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Bloodyredbaron »

Technically Redwolf, Stoker implies that werewolves and vampires are the same critter in the Dracula verse.
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Vuldari »

Dreamer wrote: ... Speaking of such things, what about using the werewolf as a symbol of powerful sexuality (A role for which it is well suited if you've ever read Little Red Riding Hood or any other disturbingly freudian werewolf stories), played for horror. I mean, "A Company of Wolves" did it, and I just thought recently how interesting it would be for David Cronenberg to do a remake of "I Was a Teenage Werewolf" that used this angle (sort of a spiritual sequel to "The Fly", remmakign a cheesy 50s horror movie to be very disturbing, which you have to admit would be cool).
I can not deny how easy it is to link lycanthropy in ones mind to sexuality and the transition into and out of puberty (primal urges and such), much the same way Vampires are becoming more and more popular as sex symbols. However, as a bit of a prude myself, I tend to be a little less enthusiastic about perusing that particular angle, unless I feel it really ADDS something to the interpretation in question.
Dreamer wrote:Also, you mention that the traditional werewolf should be kept because of it's iconic status. But aren't there a lot of other monsters-from humans in mythology that could fit that role perfectly, like the Wendigo or others?
I mentioned that in this rather confusing, metaphorical statement.
I wrote:It is an Iconic role and character that stands out like one particularly shiny, jagged, and ominous looking stone sparkling in the sunlight among countless other stones beneath the water in a river bed ... it is one of many just like it in the world of fantasy, fiction and myth, and yet it stands out as special and unique somehow.
Sure, there are plenty of other monster and shapeshifter legends out there ... but I don't have a lifetime of dreams, fears, ideas and enthusiasm surrounding the legends of the Wendigo the way I do about the Werewolf.

The oldest legends told of beasts that were usually quite Evil in nature or behavior. The stories "I" grew up with told of a creature that only ACTED evil, even though the human themselves usually wasn't. In my mind, I see that as a timeline ... an evolution. The Werewolf is a creature with a natural tendency and drive towards a lifestyle of violence and chaos. This never changed ... but the way later generations of people dealt with the Lycanthropic entity did. At first, they assumed it was the work of pure evil, and anyone caught up in it assumed it to be impossible to resist. Death was the only option. In the 19th and 20th centuries, the attitude seemed to begin to lean towards "I don't care if this is the work of the Devil itself ... I'm going to try and fight it". Bold, but still ignorant to modern concepts of Instinct, psychology, biology, etc. Now take the same thing and apply it to modern, open minded and educated human beings. Still the same violent, hungry, raging impulses the Monster always had ... but would a modern human being react to it the same way our ancestors did, knowing what we do about how emotions and instinct, and how humans and wolves think?

Instead of thinking that the natural evolution of the Werewolf is to do a total 180 from Totally Evil to totally NOT ... the most logical ( plus interesting and desirable) step to me is to have Lycanthropy show up as the frightening essence of chaos it always has been ... but manifested in someone who (perhaps for the first time in history) manages to learn how to deal with it. ... not TAME it, exactly ... more like, learn how to appease, channel, and compensate for their wild side in a way that keeps them out of trouble ... most of the time. (It's the times they DON'T that make the story exiting)


Werewolf stories get exiting when someone gets SCARED ... which is the subject of this discussion.


Should Werewolves (still) be scary?


For all of the reasons I've already shared, I say ... Yes.


Do they need to be agents of pure EVIL? ... No ... but when a person who transforms into something bigger, with sharp claws and teeth isn't SCARY ... what is it?
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by RedEye »

Also, Vuldari; in Wulfen Blood one of the characters points out that unlike the normal card-carrying genu-wine Wolf, a Werewolf "can pass among humans without their realizing it."

Thus the Werewolf becomes the "Hidden Monster", which is always a lot more fun than a plain-vanilla Monster when it comes down to the "Scariness" angle.
The Werewolf can hide--either consiously (aware of what they are) or unconsiously (unaware they get fuzzy and toothy) among ordainary humans.

This (IMHO) adds to the scare fatctor, since you can't be sure that the people with you are completely human. If you saw the original movie of "The Thing" or the remake, you can see how well that sort of monster-ness can be exploited for a good scare.

You've locked the werewolf out, and then hand the key to another werewolf.
Only you don't know that until the Rawr-moment.
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by RedWolf »

>Technically Redwolf, Stoker implies that werewolves and vampires are the same critter in the Dracula verse.

How would you define as a "werewolf" then? While a recent movie featured a "Wolf Dracula," http://www.matthewwmungle.com/pages/exh ... eature.jpg,
consider how Bram Stoker described Dracula's lupine form. Does this description sound like a wolfman to you? Like a quasi-human werewolf creature? Stoker relies on the medieval idea of shapeshifting, in which the shifted form looked like an actual animal.

"[T]he very instant the shore was touched, an immense dog sprang up on deck from below,as if shot up by the concussion, and running forward, jumped from the bow on the sand. Making straight for the steep cliff . . . it disappeared in the darkness, which seemed intensified just beyond the focus of the searchlight . . . .

A good deal of interest was abroad concerning the dog which landed when the ship struck, and more than a few of the members of the S.P.C.A., which is very strong in Whitby, have tried to befriend the animal. To the general disappointment, however, it was not to be found. It seems to have disappeared entirely from the town. It may be that it was frightened and made its way on to the moors, where it is still hiding in terror.

There are some who look with dread on such a possibility, lest later on it should in itself become a danger, for it is evidently a fierce brute. Early this morning a large dog, a half-bred mastiff belonging to a coal merchant close to Tate Hill Pier, was found dead in the roadway opposite its master's yard. It had been fighting, and manifestly had had a savage opponent, for its throat was torn away, and its belly was slit open as if with a savage claw."

[from http://www.online-literature.com/stoker/dracula/7/]
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Chris »

RedWolf wrote:Are you sure? Something like the original "Wolf Man" is clearly a human with some lupine qualities. However, how would you classify a quadrupedal werewolf, such as the one in "An American Werewolf in London"?
Most stories with people that change to full quadrupedal wolf still retain some of their human essence, whether it's the recognition of their lover, or an uncanny understanding of humans. I realize not every werewolf is fully like that, hence the "most" qualifier. :) Perhaps I should've added "I believe" somewhere in there, too..
What would you call something else that turns into a wolf? Many vampire stories feature lupine shapeshifting.
If it's still humanoid or has a largely human base, like a vampire, I would count that. Unless it was a completely different species, but I can't say I'm aware of many werewolf stories like that.
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Fastenjaw »

Lets not forget that the wolf is very much capable of experiencing other emotions such as love, fear and joy. Why can't a werewolf experience this as well? Is it really that unacceptable for the beast to show these kinds of feelings? Will it really result in a disastrous story? Will people really reject it? I say it entirely depends on the story itself. With the help of a brilliant and skilled writer, it is possible to take a seemingly lame concept and make it a into an awe inspiring creation. So why can't we have a likable werewolf that feels alot more than just rage and hunger?

Yes the werewolf is a wild and dangerous animal. Yes it can kill you if it does not like you or thinks you are a threat. But does that mean it has to always behave this way? I can see the reasoning behind keeping away from the concept of merely a mix of a man and a wolf. Because it somehow means it will be normal and thus boring. I still feel the story is what makes or breaks the beast. No matter how it behaves. I want everyone to be careful about following the old rules that say the werewolf is a monster in disguise. Because without realizing it, you are going back to the old story we are trying to break away from. Change is not always good. But when done right, it can truly be a an experience to remember.

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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

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It's all really in the story. There were two series of books that broke all kinds of ground with regard to dragons, that in their mythology I usually point at. The first series was the Dragonriders of Pern by Anne McCaffry. The second is a trilogy that I can't name, but was a brilliant take on were-dragons - including some rather hilarious bits about how to deal with carrying your own luggage.
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Bloodyredbaron »

RedWolf wrote:>Technically Redwolf, Stoker implies that werewolves and vampires are the same critter in the Dracula verse.

How would you define as a "werewolf" then? While a recent movie featured a "Wolf Dracula," http://www.matthewwmungle.com/pages/exh ... eature.jpg,
consider how Bram Stoker described Dracula's lupine form. Does this description sound like a wolfman to you? Like a quasi-human werewolf creature? Stoker relies on the medieval idea of shapeshifting, in which the shifted form looked like an actual animal.

"[T]he very instant the shore was touched, an immense dog sprang up on deck from below,as if shot up by the concussion, and running forward, jumped from the bow on the sand. Making straight for the steep cliff . . . it disappeared in the darkness, which seemed intensified just beyond the focus of the searchlight . . . .

A good deal of interest was abroad concerning the dog which landed when the ship struck, and more than a few of the members of the S.P.C.A., which is very strong in Whitby, have tried to befriend the animal. To the general disappointment, however, it was not to be found. It seems to have disappeared entirely from the town. It may be that it was frightened and made its way on to the moors, where it is still hiding in terror.

There are some who look with dread on such a possibility, lest later on it should in itself become a danger, for it is evidently a fierce brute. Early this morning a large dog, a half-bred mastiff belonging to a coal merchant close to Tate Hill Pier, was found dead in the roadway opposite its master's yard. It had been fighting, and manifestly had had a savage opponent, for its throat was torn away, and its belly was slit open as if with a savage claw."

[from http://www.online-literature.com/stoker/dracula/7/]
In general, the old werewolf stories hardly ever included a man transforming into a gestalt form. Any legends Stoker heard about werewolves probably would have been about a man transforming from man to wolf with nothing in between. There are exceptions to this rule of course, at least two drawings of illustrations of werewolves in gestalt form I can remember, but Stoker was probably drawing inspiration from the old legends. Another possibility that many of Dracula's powers originated from his time has a human magic user, as none of the other vampires display his powers, and most of the old legends say that a werewolf is nothing more than a human witch who takes the shape of a wolf with a magic ritual. Could he have been a werewolf as well and retained his shapeshifting ability after becoming a vampire? Possible.

Also note, that many legends hold that werewolves rise again as vampires when they die.

The "wolfman" is a fairly new invention to the werewolf mythos Redwolf.
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Vuldari »

Fastenjaw wrote:Lets not forget that the wolf is very much capable of experiencing other emotions such as love, fear and joy. Why can't a werewolf experience this as well? Is it really that unacceptable for the beast to show these kinds of feelings? Will it really result in a disastrous story? Will people really reject it? I say it entirely depends on the story itself. With the help of a brilliant and skilled writer, it is possible to take a seemingly lame concept and make it a into an awe inspiring creation. So why can't we have a likable werewolf that feels alot more than just rage and hunger?

Yes the werewolf is a wild and dangerous animal. Yes it can kill you if it does not like you or thinks you are a threat. But does that mean it has to always behave this way?
No ... you are absolutely right. Showing ALL sides of the entity/creature/individual/beast would be best. Contrary to what some seem to think of my opinion, I am NOT fond of mindless two-dimensional characters.

However, showing ALL sides of a Wolf, a Human, and what they may become if they are one in the same means never ceasing to acknowledge that, for all a Wolfs positive points, they ARE Also still Territorial, Carnivorous Hunters too. Humans are petty, jealous, possessive, greedy and prone to acts of violence with little or no provocation at all. Wolves are creatures of the savage law of survival ... kill or be killed ... Eat or be Eaten ... and all issues of territory, social order, and protection of family and pack are dealt with (by default) with VIOLENCE.

No matter how good and loving a person may be, it just seems a little absurd to conclude that the combination of the two could possibly result in a creature that is gentle, sweet and innocent. ... and hard to believe that a species which is as notoriously mentally unstable as the human race would react favorably to such a fusion more often than not. The predominantly negative average social opinion and discrimination of such persons/creatures would surely only increase the likelihood of a Werewolf being bitter and aggressive.

Even if/when the story or character may be a defiance of this logic, I'm quite convinced that it would just feel strange and unrealistic to avoid the underlying mentality and expectation that this character/creature is a "ticking timebomb", so to speak. Sooner or later, this person is going to USE their Strength, Claws, Teeth and undeniable impressive and fearsome physical presence ... it's only a question of Where, When, How and Why. ( ... and it's probably not going to be to win a costume contest, or a game of basketball ... probably)

I just really like it when it is shown and proven that there is a REAL and ever present danger of loosing themselves to their violent impulses. ... The omnipresent FEAR, (from the people who are within the reach of the Lycanthrope as well as the Werewolf Themself), and awareness that they are always no more than a single mis-step away from becoming the MONSTER they have been trying so hard Not to be.

That is what makes Werewolves so EXITING.

... and different from someone who is just an Absurd, Laughable 'Mild Mannered Human' by day, and a party going ' Anthro Wolf "Furry" ' by night.
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Terastas »

Fastenjaw wrote:I want to see something that is neither ungodly or completely harmless. I want a werewolf that you can admire and respect from afar. The push for the complete opposite is really fueled by all the movies that over emphasizes the predatory aspects of being a werewolf. It has been done to the point where alot of people (including myself) are sick of it.
This is what I've been saying for over a year. :P

The werewolf I believe the Pack at large has inspired is one with the human element; the potential for greater good and unspeakable evil alike. The problem is that the standard Hollywood werewolf is one already at one far end of the spectrum: the evil side. We already know what the pure evil werewolf looks like. There have been much stronger arguments and a much stronger push in favor of softer imagery because we're moving away from that hardcore evil definition.

If this forum had been devoted instead to, say, fairies or unicorns, and the Pack had elected to treat them with the human element, we'd probably be seeing at least a few topics pushing in the super-evil direction. It's because the standard image is so far off to one side that people sometimes push far in the other direction to balance it out.

The human werewolf should be, after all, one capable of both extreme goods and extreme evils, and also total control and absolute loss of control. We already know what the extreme evils and total loss of control look like; that's been the standard in Hollywood for quite some time. Which is why there's more focus on the other ends.

The other problem with the Hollywood standard being set where it is is that (as this thread would indicate) some people have come to think of that as being normal and take any attempt to balance the image as an attempt to "soften" or "make furry" the werewolf. This is not what any of us here at the Pack are trying to do, neither in our group work or our own personal writing, and frankly, I'm really getting sick of being accused of such. Nobody ever accused the makers of Dragonheart of trying to furrify dragons by giving Draco a conscience; why should we be accused of such for doing the same for werewolves?
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Grey »

Keep the Were Wolf Powerful. But don't make it out to be a mindless Killing Machien. They can act all big and bad, but they don't always have to be the big bad wolf, out to gobble you up. Though makeing humans think we're going to gobble them up is fun. :lol:
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Terastas »

Grey wrote:Keep the Were Wolf Powerful. But don't make it out to be a mindless Killing Machien. They can act all big and bad, but they don't always have to be the big bad wolf, out to gobble you up. Though makeing humans think we're going to gobble them up is fun. :lol:
They can also be powerful without being overpowered. Just because we'd prefer a werewolf that can't rip off a car bumper and tie it into a pretzel with one hand, or because we'd prefer a werewolf that can't regenerate after being thrown into an industrial wood chipper, neither should be taken as a sign that we are lobbying for "weak and vulnerable" werewolves.

Again, a misconception resulting from the far-to-one-end standard Hollywood has set for them.
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Grey »

Showing a child lost in the woods being guided out by a kind person, who turns into a wolf after the child gets to saftey. The child would prolly just see the wolf as a Big Doggy.
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Post by Midnight »

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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Terastas »

Midnight wrote:
Terastas wrote:Just because we'd prefer a werewolf that can't rip off a car bumper and tie it into a pretzel with one hand
* has known a few cars that, if a werewolf wasn't able to rip off its bumper and tie it into knots, then the werewolf in question would probably be in need of some serious medical attention... *
:? Cars that weren't made of plastic in Taiwan?

Okay, lemme' rephrase that.

"Just because a werewolf can't grab a tow truck by the hook and swing it around over his head like a flail-"

My point is that it's possible to keep werewolves powerful but still within the realm of reality.
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Grey »

I think even in full blowed Were wolf mode, the limits would be fairly odvious. I mean flipping over a small car might be the most you would get.
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by heartlessfang »

BALANCE

I think that that's what we're all looking for here. Even if it's by varying degrees because of our own opinions. I think a Werewolf should be sca-- scratch that-- Intimidating to the point of making a normal human afraid, but not a monster (though, that is not to say they cant be violent or gory.). I agree with Vuldari-san to a point, but it feels like a hasty generalization of the personalities of humans and wolves (though very insightful :D ) .......I guess we can't all agree to disagree here? :)
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Grey »

Well, we all have our idea's on how a were wolf behaives. And how they should be portraid in film.
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Vuldari »

heartlessfang wrote:BALANCE

I think that that's what we're all looking for here. Even if it's by varying degrees because of our own opinions. I think a Werewolf should be sca-- scratch that-- Intimidating to the point of making a normal human afraid, but not a monster (though, that is not to say they cant be violent or gory.). I agree with Vuldari-san to a point, but it feels like a hasty generalization of the personalities of humans and wolves (though very insightful :D ) .......I guess we can't all agree to disagree here? :)
Yes.

One sided interpretations of the creature I think are the Werewolfs greatest enemy (in terms of popularity and viability in fantasy fiction).


If they are seen purely as pawns of purposeless evil ... they loose all character.


If they are seen as purely misunderstood persons who are occasionally fuzzy ... they loose all impact.


Middle ground to me is ... they are naturally predispositioned to violence (by instinct), but generally willfully resistant to those impulses (by social upbringing). ... and the story of a werewolf is the story of how they manage their wild side when they do ... how when and why they fail when it (unavoidably) happens ... and why it is understandable that the average person probably couldn't deal with it and would give up trying. (a far better and more interesting and exiting explanation and history for their bad reputation than just ignorant prejudice alone, IMHO)

The best stories are about EXTRA-Ordinary people anyway ... right?

There are as many different untold stories, and ways a person could deal with the curious, shall we say, "Challenge" ... of being a Werewolf, as there are different kinds of people, places and lifestyles in the world.

...and almost all of them can be told without taking away the DANGER factor that has personified and popularized the creature since it's conception, nor falling into the plot pit of "Monster Revealed ... Monster Kills People ... Monster Dies" that so many other stories have driven into the ground.
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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Gevaudan »

After reading through this thread, I pretty much agree with all that's been said about balance, the extremes of the genre, etc. Forgive me if this has already been argued to death, but this thread got me thinking. One related issue that came to my mind the most often in reading this thread was control.
  • How much control should a person have over their werewolf alter-ego?

    Knowing that a balanced median between both extremes is ideal, could either of the extremes of control (total control vs. none) be applicable to any fiction effectively and in a novel, interesting way?

    How does the werewolf manifest itself in the human's mind while in human form?

    If a human has no control while a werewolf, could subconscious desires of the human affect the werewolf's actions?

    If a human has total control while a werewolf, could natural human instinct be just as unpredictable as wolfish instinct, if not worse because of additional tools (i.e. claws and teeth)?

    If a human has some control while a werewolf, how much dominance would the werewolf have? More or less than the human?

    Would a non-human creature, if transformed into a werewolf, handle the control of the werewolf personality differently than a human? Why or why not?

    And lastly, my biggest step into the bizarre:
    Could control of different elements of the mind/body be split somehow between the human and wolf personalities (i.e. wolfish sense of ethics combined with human knowledge, or intelligent, sapient ideas governing and directing the werewolf's physical body)?
And everything under the sun is in tune, but the sun is eclipsed by the moon.

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Re: Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

Post by Terastas »

Vuldari wrote:The best stories are about EXTRA-Ordinary people anyway ... right?
I'm inclined to disagree. While readers/viewers would rather read about extraordinary circumstances, ultimately what they really want is a character they can connect with on some level.

My personal take is that the temperament of the average werewolf shouldn't be any different than that of the average human being. . . But come on, are we as human beings really so calm and composed? If you think we are, turn on the news: people snap and kill each other all the time.

Like I've been saying, the human element accounts for all levels in all directions. Anything the human element is applied to does not need to be made more evil by default for it to still be absolutely terrifying.

It's not that we're wise enough to know better than to kill someone in the peak of anger. Some of us are, but for the rest of us, it's less a question of will than it is a question of capacity. Werewolves, on the other hand, always have the capacity. Lycanthropy is a gun they can't put a safety on if they're worried about it, put under lock and key if they're afraid of it, or pawn away if they decide they don't need it anymore. Someone may be the most passive guy on Earth, but it doesn't matter; give him five minutes to turn into a werewolf and he could tear your spine out through your ear.

You know it, he knows it, and he knows that you know it. Comfy?

That's my view anyway: Not necessarily savage, but unquestionably dangerous, not much different from anyone with an unlicensed firearm. After all, just because someone has it doesn't mean they'll use it, but that doesn't mean they won't use it either.
:wink:
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