Lets talk about fear and lycanthropy

[Fastenjaw]

Since the Werewolf first appeared on the big screen, they have pretty much always been associated with fear and horror. This is as it should be. After all, the Werewolf had been based on age old tales of man transforming uncontrollably into a hideous monster that would prey on the innocent. These raging beasts pretty much remained the same in nearly every film, feasting and turning the ground red with blood whenever a full moon appeared. Sometimes they were portrayed as a servant of Satan. This often complemented the theme of them being horrendously ugly. Their supernatural powers meant they were immune to nearly anything but silver. A holy and pure metal.

Film makers also used the lycan to emphasize the fear of change when teens are transitioning to adulthood. So that if you are not careful, you might grow up to become a monster yourself. Now while the sexual message has not been pushed very much in the big screen, it still remains that the wolfman is one who preys on innocent women in order to rape them. This is why the change almost always centers around a man failing to control himself. Again this is based on age old tales told to kids around a camp fire. So that they are careful not to hang around with male strangers.

Since I first saw a werewolf film, I understood what the meaning was. But somewhere along the line, I came across a book that opened my eyes to the real horrors that had taken place. Namely, wolf slaughtering. I learned how the big bad wolf came to be, why the wolf was decimated and protected, and how it came to be so loved and hated. I was one of those who loved them. But I was also one who would rather love to see them in the wild as opposed to in a zoo, as a pet, or worn as a fashion statement. Since I learned about this beautiful animal, I had come to hate werewolf films. None of them were appealing. And even when I would go and see one, I had a huge dislike of what I often saw. Because it had been based not on the hate of the wolf, but rather the fear of the unknown. Well the fear is largely gone and we are no longer victims of our religious brainwashers. That is why I disliked all those films. Because they were still using the outdated model that a Werewolf was based on.

So when I came here, I of course, rejected the idea of the wolf's image being used in yet another horror film. Because as I saw it, all of us were not what we were 50, 100 or 1000 years ago. We had changed. Our views, our perceptions, our understandings had all changed for the better. And that was reflected in how we treated our planet earth. Despite the argument that wildlife in the past was still very much admired, defended, and even worshiped, much of the stories and pictures of old continued to portray these wondrous creatures as demons from hell. Film makers pretty much kept this model and ditched all others in favor of entertainment. That is why I continued to object with all the ideas that were tossed around that, once again, portrayed this animal as a monster and not something you can watch in all its beauty.

I wonder. Could the Werewolf ever be a celebration of Man and Beast coexisting?

That may be why I don't take this place seriously. I just don't see the difference this film touts over the rest. Not yet anyways. The trailer didn't do it for me. It just didn't. So where does that leave the question of fear? I asked some time ago if it was possible to omit fear and horror in a lycanthro film. Because to me, that would be us finally saying "we are no longer afraid". It would mean the film industry isn't so one sided after all. But alot more open in storytelling.

Maybe I should have asked a different question. What if the fear came from not of them transforming? What if it came not of them acting like monsters? What if the fear was simply a lack of understanding? This doesn't mean you go all real and make them boring. But it also doesn't mean you follow the cookie cutter monster that had been so overly used already. I don't know. I guess I view the werewolf as in dire need of change. Because to me, it would be giving the wolf what is long overdue in the film industry.

Fastenjaw

[Uniform Two Six]

Well, keep in mind that the wolf and the werewolf are really two separate things. The wolf has largely moved out from under the long held bias of being a ravening monster. The only movie I've seen recently that portrayed the wolf as being evil was The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe. Y'know, if you could call them wolves, and if you ignore the fact that the book it was based on was written in the 1940s.
The werewolf, on the other paw, is a different kettle of fish. It's one of the classic horror monsters. If you want to do a movie that focuses on the wild purity of nature (or whatever the hell) then you are probably going to use the wolf (think White Fang) instead of the werewolf, simply because it's going to be easier for the average person to identify with. You have a movie in which the main character is a werewolf, but is all peaceful and majestic, it might work for the typical poster on this board, but the average viewer is going to be thinking "WTF?".
Besides, I like evil, snarly werewolves. Don't get me wrong. I'm drooling with anticipation of Freeborn, but the traditional werewolf yarn still has its place too.

[Berserker]

Well first of all Fastenjaw, please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're stuck in a time warp, or maybe a parallel dimension. I almost did a double-take when I read your post. Your ideas are actually so common and so old, that I had to refrain from just posting "Yeah. We know."

This forum is only barely related to Freeborn now, and has been that way for over a year. A lot of our new members probably don't even know about the movie. Freeborn may never exist. Anthony Brownrigg himself has stated that this forum is its own entity. If we have anything to do with Freeborn in the future, who knows, but until then, we're just a prominent werewolf forum. (On a side note, I don't know what about the trailer you thought made it look like a horror film, because it looks like a pretty standard drama to me... with AB's idea that werewolves are as evil or good as real life people being pretty evident.)

Additionally, the overwhelming majority of talk about werewolves on this forum has not been from the perspective of the werewolf as a monster. Take a good look at the topics here.

We've covered the idea of "the Werewolf as a celebration of Man and Beast coexisting" pretty thoroughly, if not on this very forum, then in our Creative Writing works. Most people here think the werewolf is a metaphor for natural freedom. Many of us are diligent proponents of the ideas you're espousing, so much that we've actually driven pure horror fans away from the forum, in some cases leading them to flame us. (I'm reminded of the one "Ravenous" author and his long diatribe about how horrible we were for not bowing down to the horror werewolf gods.)

The most begrudging horror supporters among us are aware of the fact the werewolf myth is changing in the media. Rapidly changing attitudes about wolves, and not to mention the huge swell of popularity for the paranormal romance genre, are the cause. It's pretty clear that the werewolf is being taken in new, non-monster directions everyday. I can barely remember the last time a new member joined this board because he likes gory werewolf movies and wants to see more stuff like "Dog Soldiers." Almost all of our new members have been driven by an interest in werewolves from an alternative mindset.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the 16-30 demographic in general doesn't automatically associate the werewolf with a slavering, mindless beast anymore, and it'll only get more positive as time goes on. Nowadays, I can turn to a random coworker and ask them what they think about werewolves, and they'll say, "oh I think Jacob is cool." No lie, that's how popular Twilight has become. Horror werewolf just isn't "hip" anymore.

Now, I should warn you that I don't think the werewolf is a mutually exclusive creature, and if someone wants to make a horror story about a werewolf monster, that's fine. I'll probably enjoy it.

[Werewolf Warrior]

Since the Werewolf first appeared on the big screen, they have pretty much always been associated with fear and horror. This is as it should be. After all, the Werewolf had been based on age old tales of man transforming uncontrollably into a hideous monster that would prey on the innocent. These raging beasts pretty much remained the same in nearly every film, feasting and turning the ground red with blood whenever a full moon appeared. Sometimes they were portrayed as a servant of Satan. This often complemented the theme of them being horrendously ugly. Their supernatural powers meant they were immune to nearly anything but silver. A holy and pure metal.

Film makers also used the lycan to emphasize the fear of change when teens are transitioning to adulthood. So that if you are not careful, you might grow up to become a monster yourself. Now while the sexual message has not been pushed very much in the big screen, it still remains that the wolfman is one who preys on innocent women in order to rape them. This is why the change almost always centers around a man failing to control himself. Again this is based on age old tales told to kids around a camp fire. So that they are careful not to hang around with male strangers.

Since I first saw a werewolf film, I understood what the meaning was. But somewhere along the line, I came across a book that opened my eyes to the real horrors that had taken place. Namely, wolf slaughtering. I learned how the big bad wolf came to be, why the wolf was decimated and protected, and how it came to be so loved and hated. I was one of those who loved them. But I was also one who would rather love to see them in the wild as opposed to in a zoo, as a pet, or worn as a fashion statement. Since I learned about this beautiful animal, I had come to hate werewolf films. None of them were appealing. And even when I would go and see one, I had a huge dislike of what I often saw. Because it had been based not on the hate of the wolf, but rather the fear of the unknown. Well the fear is largely gone and we are no longer victims of our religious brainwashers. That is why I disliked all those films. Because they were still using the outdated model that a Werewolf was based on.

So when I came here, I of course, rejected the idea of the wolf's image being used in yet another horror film. Because as I saw it, all of us were not what we were 50, 100 or 1000 years ago. We had changed. Our views, our perceptions, our understandings had all changed for the better. And that was reflected in how we treated our planet earth. Despite the argument that wildlife in the past was still very much admired, defended, and even worshiped, much of the stories and pictures of old continued to portray these wondrous creatures as demons from hell. Film makers pretty much kept this model and ditched all others in favor of entertainment. That is why I continued to object with all the ideas that were tossed around that, once again, portrayed this animal as a monster and not something you can watch in all its beauty.

I wonder. Could the Werewolf ever be a celebration of Man and Beast coexisting?

That may be why I don't take this place seriously. I just don't see the difference this film touts over the rest. Not yet anyways. The trailer didn't do it for me. It just didn't. So where does that leave the question of fear? I asked some time ago if it was possible to omit fear and horror in a lycanthro film. Because to me, that would be us finally saying "we are no longer afraid". It would mean the film industry isn't so one sided after all. But alot more open in storytelling.

Maybe I should have asked a different question. What if the fear came from not of them transforming? What if it came not of them acting like monsters? What if the fear was simply a lack of understanding? This doesn't mean you go all real and make them boring. But it also doesn't mean you follow the cookie cutter monster that had been so overly used already. I don't know. I guess I view the werewolf as in dire need of change. Because to me, it would be giving the wolf what is long overdue in the film industry.

Fastenjaw

Well that is alot to devour lol XD

[Fastenjaw]

You know... I remember reading an article on freeborn that coincides with Berserker's post. It basically said that, as far as the majority was concerned, the big bad wolf is long gone. I have also read some posts that are at par with what I wrote. My problem was the few particular replies that I picked up during my short visit. The messages were basically that the werewolf could never not be horrific or evil because nobody would buy it. Even when I argued that a wild animal could be very much scary and intimidating given the right circumstances, the vibe I got was that they are still largely going to be kept to their traditional roots. With only some minor tweaks so they don't act so stupid.

That was and continues to be my problem. Because as it stands, we are sitting on about 90+ percent of werewolves still kept the way they always have been portrayed. And thats not exclusive to the big screen either. Many video games, books, and other media have kept the traditional going. I'd like to think you can achieve something cool and graceful without making them into tree hugging tail waggers or furries. I have not seen any recent films or series based on lycanthropes due to the fact that I still see the ugly, gory, evil, and horror themes still pushed in the previews or ads.

It is not like I am forcing a singular view on what a werewolf should be. I just want to see a greater diversity in storytelling. Because I am so very tired of the same stinky garbage that still populates the media to this day. If you know of any films or mediums that aren't so cliche, I'd love to hear them. I know Alpha Luna was pretty good. But last I checked it was abandoned.

[Berserker]

You know... I remember reading an article on freeborn that coincides with Berserker's post. It basically said that, as far as the majority was concerned, the big bad wolf is long gone. I have also read some posts that are at par with what I wrote. My problem was the few particular replies that I picked up during my short visit. The messages were basically that the werewolf could never not be horrific or evil because nobody would buy it. Even when I argued that a wild animal could be very much scary and intimidating given the right circumstances, the vibe I got was that they are still largely going to be kept to their traditional roots. With only some minor tweaks so they don't act so stupid.

That was and continues to be my problem. Because as it stands, we are sitting on about 90+ percent of werewolves still kept the way they always have been portrayed. And thats not exclusive to the big screen either. Many video games, books, and other media have kept the traditional going. I'd like to think you can achieve something cool and graceful without making them into tree hugging tail waggers or furries. I have not seen any recent films or series based on lycanthropes due to the fact that I still see the ugly, gory, evil, and horror themes still pushed in the previews or ads.

It is not like I am forcing a singular view on what a werewolf should be. I just want to see a greater diversity in storytelling. Because I am so very tired of the same stinky garbage that still populates the media to this day. If you know of any films or mediums that aren't so cliche, I'd love to hear them. I know Alpha Luna was pretty good. But last I checked it was abandoned.

90%? I'd put it at more like 40%, or even 30%, if you count comics, books, and online content along with movies. You're not giving the werewolf world much credit here.

Lets take a look at books. (Forget about online fanfic, comics, and comic books for a moment, because we already know those are inundated with non-traditional and non-monster werewolves.)

Go to Amazon. Search by books. And type in "werewolf."

Here are the top 12 results:

Werewolf: The Forsaken by White Wolf
The Werewolf in Lore and Legend by Montague Summers
Howling at the Moon (Tales of an Urban Werewolf, Book 1) by Karen MacInerney
The Sacred Book of the Werewolf: A Novel by Victor Pelevin
The Accidental Werewolf (Accidental Friends, Book 1) by Dakota Cassidy
The Werewolf Book: The Encyclopedia of Shape-Shifting Beings by Brad Steiger
Cycle of the Werewolf by Stephen King and Berni Wrightson
Lonely Werewolf Girl by Martin Millar
Bestial: Werewolf Apocalypse by William D. Carl
The Essential Guide to Werewolf Literature (A Ray and Pat Browne Book) by Brian J. Frost
*OP Werewolf: the Apocalypse Revised Ed (Werewolf: The Apocalypse) by Brian Campbell, Mitch Byrd, and Steve Prescott
Touch of the Wolf (Historical Werewolf Series, Book 1) by Susan Krinard


Ok. Now lets count 'em up.

2 are about traditional horror werewolves. One is a decades-old classic and the other is something radically different than what we're used to.
2 are RPG books. The RPG started the whole heroic werewolf thing to begin with.
3 are reference books.
6 are romance or drama novels with werewolf protagonists that either radically veer away from the monster werewolf cliches, or are humorous rather than horrifying.

If we use those top 12 results as a sample of current werewolf written media--and I think we can--we come up with only 16% in the horror genre.

Go to page 2 and you'll see similar results. Lots of romance, lots of RPG, lots of drama, very little horror. On page 3 you start getting children's books. Etc.


It seems like, from everything I've seen, film is the only medium that hasn't caught up yet, and as I've already pointed out, due to the Twilight series, that might be changing quite a bit in the near future.

Go back 30 years and you won't see any of that stuff. With werewolves it was all horror all the time. Clearly the werewolf archetype is very different than what it used to be (except for film, granted,) and is only becoming more diverse as time goes on.

Case in point? http://www.amazon.com/Wolfsbane-Mistlet ... 413&sr=8-1

Christmas werewolves. I mean come on. Half the stories in there are freakin' heart-warming. Think you'd get away with a heart-warming werewolf back in the day?

[Fastenjaw]

Well its official. I'm stuck in a time warp.

While I'm still disappointed with what I still see, I'm going to hold out hope for the film and game industry (Yes I played Twilight Princess already). I rarely read books. So I am definitely behind where literature is concerned. Next time I'll do a bit more research before I throw out numbers.

Just thought I'd like to mention something. The series Twilight is more centered around vampires than werewolves. I did a little digging and read that the second book had them. Not sure if the others have an appearance or not as the summaries were awfully short.

[Berserker]

Pretty much the second book onward includes a werewolf as one of the main characters. He's the second "heart throb" kid that competes with the main vampire character in fan circles.

[heartlessfang]

Many of us are diligent proponents of the ideas you're espousing, so much that we've actually driven pure horror fans away from the forum, in some cases leading them to flame us. (I'm reminded of the one "Ravenous" author and his long diatribe about how horrible we were for not bowing down to the horror werewolf gods.)

lol I'd love to read that post. I read that guy's book.....it was..... in a word: Bleah.

[Berserker]

Many of us are diligent proponents of the ideas you're espousing, so much that we've actually driven pure horror fans away from the forum, in some cases leading them to flame us. (I'm reminded of the one "Ravenous" author and his long diatribe about how horrible we were for not bowing down to the horror werewolf gods.)

lol I'd love to read that post. I read that guy's book.....it was..... in a word: Bleah.

Here: http://www.thepack.network/thepackboard ... 51#p196051

He posted other stuff too but went back and deleted it. The guy basically flipped out for no reason. I think he's got some kind of mental disorder.

[RedEye]

Remember something: until pretty recently, the wolf was not seen in any sort of positive light by anybody.
I suspect the "sympathetic Werewolf" idea started about the same time wolves became less monsters and more in need of human help to survive.
Now, a lot of people react with horror at the thought of killing wolves or damaging them in any way. We have as a people, adopted them.*
As the Archetype, so the Fantasy; I'd guess.

*Except for certain people who still see nature as something to be used for their personal income, like cattlemen. They hate wolves simply because wolves eat sick and diseased cattle that could be slaughtered and sold for profit... to us.

[Grey]

Humans don't like anything that serves a function outside of what people do.

Or whose function in nature conflicts with human desire.

[Fastenjaw]

Now, a lot of people react with horror at the thought of killing wolves or damaging them in any way.

This is the number one reason why I rejected horror being associated with wolves (or wolf variants). Because it reminded me of the very unpleasant days of old where people exterminated this animal on common misconceptions. Much of which is fueled by the very same stories still played on the big screen. This is a time we would much rather forget. And yet the notion that this horror element needs to be preserved is, to me anyways, unfair. But really. Peoples views have changed. This board has proven that even the big bad wolf is no longer favorable. At least other media (another thanks to Berserk for educating me) have kept up with the times.

P.S. My view on Twilight will really depend how the lycans are done. That will be the deciding factor for me. I never liked vamps much. But that might also be attributed to the way the stories remained unchanged for all these centuries. Who knows. Maybe Twilight might actually get me to like vamps. That will be quite a challenge indeed.

Fastenjaw

[Vagrant]

This thread has been an interesting read, deffo good points all around.

I think that this renaissance isn't just happening with the Werewolf though, but rather with every "monster". If we're to look at any form of fiction, there were more monsters prevalent in the past than there are now. I think this, in part, has to do with a new truth that's seeped into the mass subconscious: the average human can be a more real monster than any fictional monster a creator could dream up. And this is often true.

A question steams from that: What do we do with all these old "monsters"? From there, the possibility exists that if, perhaps, the human condition can result in monsters, then those creatures perceived as monsters based usually on appearances alone weren't as much monsters at all. Perhaps they are, perhaps they aren't, and exploration of each medium is required to find out.

This is why we arrive at Fastenjaw's conclusion. The stigma has been removed from Wolves, and thus we see any monstrous creations which use the Wolf as their basis as perhaps a tad misguided, and the invention of a less-educated and darker era, and maybe even something we'd want to distance ourselves from as a whole. The opposite of that then, the renaissance, is to see the Wolf as something better, and possibly even something pure, as we swing from one end of the spectrum to the other.

And that's what I think we're seeing in literature and the public view today. We're the new humanity, better and different, and we realise that monsters come from within, not from without, and therefore we need to break the misconceptions of the past by reinventing the Gentle Giant, the Worthy Wolf, the Altruist Alien.

[heartlessfang]

^ well said

[Vuldari]

Many of us are diligent proponents of the ideas you're espousing, so much that we've actually driven pure horror fans away from the forum, in some cases leading them to flame us. (I'm reminded of the one "Ravenous" author and his long diatribe about how horrible we were for not bowing down to the horror werewolf gods.)

lol I'd love to read that post. I read that guy's book.....it was..... in a word: Bleah.

Here: http://www.thepack.network/thepackboard ... 51#p196051

He posted other stuff too but went back and deleted it. The guy basically flipped out for no reason. I think he's got some kind of mental disorder.

For a moment I thought you were talking about me, but I was confused as to why I was being described as an "Author".

... it's not surprising that I was confused though, as it looks like this guy had a lot of the same things to say as I did.



I still think many here are being unfairly biased against the remaining potential of the use of the Werewolf as an icon/tool of Fear, and the value of Fears use in a well told story to enhance it's entertainment and excitement value. I think it's possible to make a very good story about a genuinely very scary werewolf(s) ... even though few have succeeded (yet), and it has been abused to a bloody pulp (literally).

I think it's a theme that has not yet reached it's TRUE potential. The existing batch of Cruddy Werewolf stories are just a series of false-starts, the way I see it ... I can see and feel in my mind how it could be played out in a way that Thrill Seeking Horror fans and Tail Wagging Wolf lovers alike would enjoy ... Fantastic, Terrifying, Insightful, Disturbing and Enlightening all a the same time ...

[Something does not have to be "EVIL" to still be DANGEROUS, and therefore worthy of being FRIGHTENING and Frightened OF ... and EVIL is often in the Eye of the Beholder. Just ask the different opinions of a Mother Wolf and a Mother Rabbit when the child of one eats the child of the other. Was it the Cold Blooded Murder of a beloved, innocent family member ... a Tragedy? ... or a childs Proud 'Rite of Passage' into adulthood ... a cause for Celebration?]

... but I just can't collaborate such ideas with people who have become allergic to the idea of Lycanthropy being depicted as something that not just "IS" feared (by simple misunderstanding of the unknown) but, in at least some cases, genuinely SHOULD be feared. If not as a "Curse", then at least "An Overwhelming Physical and Mental Burden and Danger (to oneself and others) ... with notable and desirable Perks".

*Sigh* ... I'm still a Werewolf fan, and a General Animal Lover, Transformation fanatic, and Anthropomorphic ("Furry") character enthusiast ... and I want to discuss my ideas with fellow fans ... But my opinion of Werewolves has gone the opposite direction as 98% of this forum (I started out promoting "Sweet and Cuddly" werewolves like everyone else, but became diabetic about it over time and developed a greater appreciation for MONSTERS than I ever had before instead ... but was the only one who did, it seems).

... so yes, I am whining a little bit, and I know some of you are tired of hearing it. [FYI: if you don't want my comments to extend beyond this post into a Rant ... don't flame me about it. No Flames to respond to = no further complaints from me. Nuff Said.]


Anyway, that's my contribution to this conversation.



I respectfully Disagree with the general consensus of The Pack, and am saddened by the unpopularity of my opinions, preferences and ideas.


That is All.

[Grey]

An intresting point Vuldari. It's true. Most were wolf related films use alot of creative justice to make the wolf scary, and in doing so make the were wolf less wolfish in nature. What would be truly scary would be Wolfish Revenge, or being stalked by a were wolf. Something where the animal can truly shine as a monster.

Though I think the thread was more about the changeing image of the were wolf. I'm prolly mistaken.

But in my opinion a movie where we get to see the were wolf sub culture would be kind of cool.

[Vagrant]

Indeed. I don't think you should feel threatened by this thread, Vuldari. The commonality of this thread would seem to lean towards recognising the Werewolf as an evolving theme, as opposed to dictating what the Werewolf should be, and thus in turn fighting what it should not.

All things evolve with time, and it's not just the Werewolf who has undergone this renaissance, and some underwent their reinvention into something more complex more expediently, and perhaps that's why those elements are more commonly accepted. Early theatre involving aliens centered around an incomprehensible attacker; War of the Worlds, Invasion of the Bodysnatchers, and that sort of thing. Eventually, aliens evolved into creatures possessed of culture to match their Science, and their actions were tied with reason, and whether they were actions which brought joy or suffering (and therefore could be subjectively considered as "good" or "evil") was something that the audience could comprehend, and relate to. In other words, the monsters slowly became more human as humans realised that they too could be monsters.

I find that robots were handled similarly. Originally there were many tales of machines "malfunctioning" and gaining awareness, turning evil or whatnot. I can remember too many a tale where a machine that had turned evil and desired to take over the World had to match wits with a human, and was inevitably defeated upon the battlefield of logic, because the machine believed itself infallible and therein was its flaw. This is still clung to occasionally by stating that machines are automatons, incapable of "the human element", but once again the renaissance can clearly be seen, there are robots which try to be human, or are perhaps the pinnacle of the human condition. An example of this would, perhaps, be Number 5 from Short Circuit.

I would wager that this seems to stem from the mainstream accepting the idea that literally anything can be possible, at least in the realms of fiction, and if anything is possible the imposing strict rules and expectations upon that fiction is simply limiting how truly fantastic it could be, because more and more the fantastic is met more by intrigue these days than fear. Suffice it to say that humans are, by their very nature, inquisitive creatures. Yet almost contrary to that, we're also creatures of tedium, and on some level we always crave the familiar. The end result? We try to understand the new through the forms of the old, and the expected.

A fine example of this is the evolution of super-heroes, in the Golden Age, they didn't really need secret identities, and their motivations were very black and white. Everyone understood the concept of a hero, and that was simple enough. Yet as we entered a more exploratory period within the Silver Age, heroes became a little "strange", and people had trouble relating to them. So once again the familiar is tied into new concepts, and we have the likes of nerdly Peter Parker as the Astonishing Spider-Man.

And as I've said, this brings about the evolution of the things we're familiar with, as the familiar becomes increasingly complex with new ideas explored through it. Instead of abandoning what we know and building from the ground up, we take something that we already know and use that as proxy for our exploration. The way the Werewolf fits into this is that the Werewolf can also be nerdly Peter Parker, or an actor, or be a part of a romance play. The Werewolf can, indeed, be human, a realistic human, or even an ideological one, and accepting that the monster comes from within, the Werewolf may even in some cases represent the worst of us, but as an individual (and I believe that's something Freeborn wanted to cover).

This may be what someone desires of a Werewolf or it may not, but that period of exploration is upon us, and we'll find many mediums to explore the abstract, the peculiar, and even the alien as we try to better comprehend them.

I understand your desire to cling to the traditions of the Werewolf, and I don't think that's a bad thing at all. As I've said, it's human nature and it's folly to fight that, and we are creatures of habit. Changing what we've come to accept as true is simply ripping the rug out from under us, and some feel that things are changing too fast, and that the potential of old ideas are indeed forgotten as new ones blossom quickly, one after the other, and more quickly than we can keep up with. We are a train pounding down the tracks, ever accelerating.

In the end though, I don't see why there can't be room for both, and I think your Werewolf is as valid as anyone elses, Vuldari. For without the traditional Werewolf, the original Werewolf, indeed, the Werewolf archetype, as it were... what would we base our explorations upon? Were would we go from? It's important to remember what the Werewolf was in order to find new ways to see and perceive it. And if you don't want to engage in these explorative endeavours, then that's up to you. It's important that someone remember what the Werewolf was, at its core, and you should do that. One can be a historian of anything, even Werewolves.

And lord knows that history tends to repeat itself... given time.

[Grey]

Sometimes, haveing a little fear tied to something is a good thing. The tranformation of a person to a were wolf is a scary thing the first time around.

[Vuldari]

Though I think the thread was more about the changeing image of the were wolf. I'm prolly mistaken.

No you are right ... but the thing is, the conversation keeps going on and being restarted over and over again about how the perception of werewolves needs to be CHANGED ... but as the opinions of the people on this forum clearly show, it already HAS.

There are multiple successful franchises of fantasy media involving Lycanthropic protagonists (Novels, TableTop RPGs ...), including two recent popular films ("Van Hellsing" and "Underworld") involving someone who becomes host to Lycanthropy being the HERO of the story, rather than the villain ... and they don't die at the end either.

The Fact that the general opinion of the beast is changing is a "Well DUH" statement at this point, and really doesn't need a Rally-Call any more.

And yet ... almost every time I speak, I am attacked (by some) as if my support for less enviable incarnations of Werewolves needs to be repressed ... lest the desired transition be threatened.

... as if I could (or would even want to) stop the winds of change single-handedly ...

But in my opinion a movie where we get to see the were wolf sub culture would be kind of cool.

... that's ... that is not quite what I meant.

[EDIT:] The following rambling was inspired by a mis-reading of this quote. For some reason I thought it said "Were Wolf Cub Culture" ... as in, werewolf puppies, and lycanthropic parenting strategies. ... anyway ... I still feel like leaving up what I had to say.

[Elaborating]

I was merely using that as a metaphor to point out that, some actions and behaviors that are perfectly natural and acceptable for REAL wolves (not mindless movie monsters), would be seen as quite EVIL acts in the eyes of others. Wolves are predators after all ... they prey on the weak, and gang up on the helpless to tear them to bloody shreds without any remorse. In the grand scheme of things, it really isn't Evil ... but wolves generally are not very nice ... to anything that is not a wolf, or even rival wolves outside their pack. I spent this summer working in Yellowstone National park, and got a chance to see and learn alot about the local Wolf Packs. When a Wolf catches a Coyote in it's territory ... it kills it in cold blood without a second thought. A rival pack member? ... attack with extreme prejudice. Anything tasty and slow or stupid enough to get caught? ... Lunch.

Wolves have a complex and loving family/pack structure, and are capable of being quite kind to one another, and to outsiders whom they accept into their group ... they are not Evil, but merely do what they need to do to survive, and serve a necessary role in their native ecosystems. ... but they are still violent killers by nature ... what a WOLF is consists of more than just the fur on it's back. They are HUNTERS, inside and out. ... not sweet, man loving lap dogs whom are merely misunderstood because they have sharp teeth. The perception of a Wolf (Ferral or Gestalt with Human Intelligence) as a potential and likely THREAT to ones health and safety is still perfectly valid, regardless of ones opinions and fondness for the animal. ... and the idea of a Civilized person (or oneself) becoming instilled with the instincts, impulses and hunger of a Wolf (not just it's pelt) is still quite worthy of being a FRIGHTENING concept, even when one is fully aware of a Wolfs soft-side as well. [IMHO]

All I'm saying is ... most peoples opinions have ALREADY changed. ... is it really necessary (or fair) to try to try and steer the opinions of others away from ideas more akin to the 'Olde' Style Werewolf?

[Vuldari]

In the end though, I don't see why there can't be room for both, and I think your Werewolf is as valid as anyone elses, Vuldari. For without the traditional Werewolf, the original Werewolf, indeed, the Werewolf archetype, as it were... what would we base our explorations upon? Were would we go from? It's important to remember what the Werewolf was in order to find new ways to see and perceive it.

Exactly.

And if you don't want to engage in these explorative endeavours, then that's up to you.

It is not that I disapprove or am uninterested in exploring all facets of the potential of the core concept, or splinter variants 'Inspired' by the main idea. I am an all around Transformation FANATIC ... I love to daydream about people (especially myself) transforming into all sorts of fantastic new forms and doing all sorts of wonderful things with it ... or even just nothing at all, curling up with ones new fluffy tail and taking a nap.

However, the entity of the "Werewolf" (In the form I came to know it most commonly in ... Full Moons, Involuntary Changes, Transmittable, Fit's of Madness, etc.) I have found stands out as something special and unique in my mind. A Werewolf to me is not just someone who changes into a Wolf. It is an Iconic role and character that stands out like one particularly shiny, jagged, and ominous looking stone sparkling in the sunlight among countless other stones beneath the water in a river bed ... it is one of many just like it in the world of fantasy, fiction and myth, and yet it stands out as special and unique somehow.

A Man (or Woman) who MUST become a Beast at or against their will on a regular basis, only to have it vanish almost invisibly within them again until it emerges again with violent intensity again and again ... rejected at first, then expected, but never controlled ... an essence of chaos locked within ... always a danger ... always an uncertainty ... a mere scratch or bite away from doubling the trouble in an instant ...

To me, kind and gentle Werewolves who can change instantly and painlessly into fluffy tailed Woofies at will are a very amusing and potentially entertaining concept ... but the novelty and significance of the character looses much of it's charm without the underlying attitude and feeling that they are NOT supposed to be that way. ... that this is very STRANGE and UNEXPECTED ... That is what makes it fun.

But for that to remain valid, there needs to be some really GOOD "SCARY" werewolves to use as reference for contrast.

To me, the best "Werewolf Hero" story would be one in which the persons lycanthropy is overwhelmingly troublesome, and seemingly certain to lead them to a violent death ... if not at least a complete loss of their sanity. That way ... when the character shows the extraordinary strength of Will, Wit and Creativity to find a way to overcome their burden where so many others before them have failed, and even use it to their advantage somehow without bloody disaster (after a few 'Learning-Curve' mishaps along the way of course, to prove how difficult it really is), their achievement then truly feels significant.

If the ONLY kind of 'Good Werewolf' story that anyone is writing is one where Total Control is just a matter of completing a 12 day concentration course with a Lycanthropic mentor, shifting is painless and can be done anytime as often as one wants ... with no Predatory or Territorial instincts or Carnivorous Hunger ... it's just Instant Victory. "Congradulations ... you've been bitten. You are now a Furry Superhero." ... amusing and fun if done well ... but is that really the ONLY kind of story New 'Evolved' werewolf fans are interested in helping to create? Are EMO "No one understands me ... everybody hates me for no good reason" issue stories really enough by themselves? That seems to be nearly the only theme I see anyone suggesting and asking for lately around here.

Those ideas are boring me, personally ... I would prefer to talk about something else, but no matter how often I fish for bites, I never find anyone interested in discussing scarier ideas with me.

... Only passive "To each their own" comments, and the occasional flaming' " You are just a Stupid, Stubborn unevolved Dinosaur who supports discrimination against Wolves, and refuses to accept new ideas and likes bad Horror movies with lots of Gore" type statements, which are totally not true.



Just start (or rather "Continue") collaborating to make the kind of mythology you want already. You are all already in agreement about what you most want to see next.


However If/When anyone here starts to get tired of those stores and characters, and begin to hunger for something maybe a little more Psychologically "Intense" (not necessarily GORY, though some violence seems an inevitability in such scenarios) ... Look me up.

If there really is "Room for Both" (which I truly believe there is), just let me know if/when some of you are ready to discuss concepts about versions of Werewolves who were dealt a little more of a RAW DEAL with their Lycanthropy. I have plenty of undeveloped ideas I would love to discuss, and would love to hear yours I have not thought of, if you have them ...

[Chris]

However, the entity of the "Werewolf" (In the form I came to know it most commonly in ... Full Moons, Involuntary Changes, Transmittable, Fit's of Madness, etc.) I have found stands out as something special and unique in my mind.

You know, I really have to agree with this. In fact, over the long course of my lurking, I find myself agreeing quite a bit with Vuldari.

To me, the ideal werewolf is someone who can't control their changes. Where the person is forced to change and becomes a "wild card", so to speak. Not inherently good or evil, but very unpredictable and dangerous, with each form having very little, if any, memory of their other self. Something to be feared, but not because it's "evil". Given this, there'd also be little room for "packs". Maybe 2 or 3 that happen to find each other and strike up a friendship in human form, but otherwise there's not much a pack would accomplish.. you'd all change at the same time, you have very little memory of what happens when you do, and other werewolves aren't magically immune to the danger of you as a werewolf (and vice-versa). If anything, other werewolves may be in more danger, if you're the territorial type. So I don't see what function a pack could provide that close non-werewolf friends couldn't.

Though, none of this is to say I don't, couldn't, or can't enjoy other types of werewolves. I'm very much looking forward to Freeborn, even though they're not seemingly in this mold. A good enjoyable story can be built around "sentient" werewolves that have more societal structure and are more benign. Things like those werewolf calendars that have been around for a couple years have my interest, as well.

Each type of werewolf has its pros and cons, and in the right hands, any of them can be made enjoyable. The dangerous, uncontrollable-shifting types just happen to be my favorite, for whatever reason. I can't change that any more than anyone else can change their favorite type.

[Fastenjaw]

Vul?

I understand where you are coming from. As much as I'd like to see something different, I don't necessarily want to see a cute, oversized furry that could do no harm. I want to see something that is neither ungodly or completely harmless. I want a werewolf that you can admire and respect from afar. The push for the complete opposite is really fueled by all the movies that over emphasizes the predatory aspects of being a werewolf. It has been done to the point where alot of people (including myself) are sick of it. They nearly always go all out and make it an evil creation. Thats why I may, at times push for something that seems a bit too normal and thus, not as interesting. I still favor a middle ground. It is a concept missing from the big screen for far too long. I hope Freeborn changes that. Or at least it may help steer the industry in the right direction.

(The rest has been deleted on purpose. Please ignore the double posting)

[Fastenjaw]

I want to give mention about the other extreme of it being labeled a "furry". While I emphasize that the term "furry" is not explicit, there are those unattractive materials that have stuck to the name. This is where much of the fear of the opposite really comes into play. And is what I suspect fans of the genre are most afraid of. People are scared about the thought of the werewolf being called a furry. Because the very thought of it would bring up some disturbing pictures that burn the brain cells. The word also conjures up other images of either being weak, emo, boring, socially inept, or a tail wagger that simply wants to play and love one another.

It sucks that the word furry has such a bad name...

The middle would be where I fit in all of this. No lack of control (stupid) or total control (uninteresting). But something right in the middle. This doesn't translate to bursts of rage and lack of control half the time with full control the rest. But rather something that is not in complete control of one's actions. Just like how animals are already, they are controlled primarily by a little thing called instincts! And that is far from evil.

Fastenjaw

[Dreamer]

In the end though, I don't see why there can't be room for both, and I think your Werewolf is as valid as anyone elses, Vuldari. For without the traditional Werewolf, the original Werewolf, indeed, the Werewolf archetype, as it were... what would we base our explorations upon? Were would we go from? It's important to remember what the Werewolf was in order to find new ways to see and perceive it.

Exactly.

And if you don't want to engage in these explorative endeavours, then that's up to you.

It is not that I disapprove or am uninterested in exploring all facets of the potential of the core concept, or splinter variants 'Inspired' by the main idea. I am an all around Transformation FANATIC ... I love to daydream about people (especially myself) transforming into all sorts of fantastic new forms and doing all sorts of wonderful things with it ... or even just nothing at all, curling up with ones new fluffy tail and taking a nap.

However, the entity of the "Werewolf" (In the form I came to know it most commonly in ... Full Moons, Involuntary Changes, Transmittable, Fit's of Madness, etc.) I have found stands out as something special and unique in my mind. A Werewolf to me is not just someone who changes into a Wolf. It is an Iconic role and character that stands out like one particularly shiny, jagged, and ominous looking stone sparkling in the sunlight among countless other stones beneath the water in a river bed ... it is one of many just like it in the world of fantasy, fiction and myth, and yet it stands out as special and unique somehow.

A Man (or Woman) who MUST become a Beast at or against their will on a regular basis, only to have it vanish almost invisibly within them again until it emerges again with violent intensity again and again ... rejected at first, then expected, but never controlled ... an essence of chaos locked within ... always a danger ... always an uncertainty ... a mere scratch or bite away from doubling the trouble in an instant ...

To me, kind and gentle Werewolves who can change instantly and painlessly into fluffy tailed Woofies at will are a very amusing and potentially entertaining concept ... but the novelty and significance of the character looses much of it's charm without the underlying attitude and feeling that they are NOT supposed to be that way. ... that this is very STRANGE and UNEXPECTED ... That is what makes it fun.

But for that to remain valid, there needs to be some really GOOD "SCARY" werewolves to use as reference for contrast.

To me, the best "Werewolf Hero" story would be one in which the persons lycanthropy is overwhelmingly troublesome, and seemingly certain to lead them to a violent death ... if not at least a complete loss of their sanity. That way ... when the character shows the extraordinary strength of Will, Wit and Creativity to find a way to overcome their burden where so many others before them have failed, and even use it to their advantage somehow without bloody disaster (after a few 'Learning-Curve' mishaps along the way of course, to prove how difficult it really is), their achievement then truly feels significant.

If the ONLY kind of 'Good Werewolf' story that anyone is writing is one where Total Control is just a matter of completing a 12 day concentration course with a Lycanthropic mentor, shifting is painless and can be done anytime as often as one wants ... with no Predatory or Territorial instincts or Carnivorous Hunger ... it's just Instant Victory. "Congradulations ... you've been bitten. You are now a Furry Superhero." ... amusing and fun if done well ... but is that really the ONLY kind of story New 'Evolved' werewolf fans are interested in helping to create? Are EMO "No one understands me ... everybody hates me for no good reason" issue stories really enough by themselves? That seems to be nearly the only theme I see anyone suggesting and asking for lately around here.

Those ideas are boring me, personally ... I would prefer to talk about something else, but no matter how often I fish for bites, I never find anyone interested in discussing scarier ideas with me.

... Only passive "To each their own" comments, and the occasional flaming' " You are just a Stupid, Stubborn unevolved Dinosaur who supports discrimination against Wolves, and refuses to accept new ideas and likes bad Horror movies with lots of Gore" type statements, which are totally not true.



Just start (or rather "Continue") collaborating to make the kind of mythology you want already. You are all already in agreement about what you most want to see next.


However If/When anyone here starts to get tired of those stores and characters, and begin to hunger for something maybe a little more Psychologically "Intense" (not necessarily GORY, though some violence seems an inevitability in such scenarios) ... Look me up.

If there really is "Room for Both" (which I truly believe there is), just let me know if/when some of you are ready to discuss concepts about versions of Werewolves who were dealt a little more of a RAW DEAL with their Lycanthropy. I have plenty of undeveloped ideas I would love to discuss, and would love to hear yours I have not thought of, if you have them ...

Oddly enough, I read a book called "Kitty and the Midnight Hour" which kinda shows your ideal werewolf Vuldari, a creature that, while not inherrently evil, is untamable and dangerous. Moreso since the titular character's wolf side is making her stay in an abusive relationship.

Speaking of such things, what about using the werewolf as a symbol of powerful sexuality (A role for which it is well suited if you've ever read Little Red Riding Hood or any other disturbingly freudian werewolf stories), played for horror. I mean, "A Company of Wolves" did it, and I just thought recently how interesting it would be for David Cronenberg to do a remake of "I Was a Teenage Werewolf" that used this angle (sort of a spiritual sequel to "The Fly", remmakign a cheesy 50s horror movie to be very disturbing, which you have to admit would be cool).

Also, you mention that the traditional werewolf should be kept because of it's iconic status. But aren't there a lot of other monsters-from humans in mythology that could fit that role perfectly, like the Wendigo or others?