Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.

Should a werewolf be able to bite a regular wolf?

Yes, definitely
1
3%
Yes, but it would rarely be done
12
41%
2 - Doesn’t really care either way
11
38%
3 - They’re pretty cool I guess, but they aren’t an obsession
5
17%
 
Total votes: 29

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Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Celestialwolf »

So, should it be possible for a werewolf to bite a regular wolf to pass on the ability to shapeshift (assuming the bite is how that's done)?

I say yes, but that it would virtually never happen due to some of the following complications. There would all of a sudden be a new human walking around that doesn't know anything about human culture, that isn't used to wearing clothes, and can't read or write or speak any language. They would have to obtain at least a kindergarten education to be able to function, and as we know that would take about a year (not including all the time kids normally spend growing up and learning at home before they even go to school). They would also have no government records (unless they were previously tracked as a wolf but that doesn't count :lol: ) which would complicate things.

Also, one of the only reasons I can think of for changing a regular wolf would be if you'd want to mate with it (otherwise, all offspring would be mostly wolf but a quarter human which would also be a weird, complicated situation). How old would that wolf be as a human? Would it be a dog-years scenario where they would be fairly old, or a literal age transition which would most likely make them really young? It would be hard to raise a family in either situation for sure.

Anyway, what do y'all think?

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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Vagrant »

There's the neural pruning scenario to consider, too. I think it's a couple of times that humans undergo pruning, and then we're locked down into a more specialised set of skills, and it becomes increasingly more difficult for us to pick up new talents. As children, we're all over the place, but that's because of the potential, we haven't locked down into one skill-set yet, we haven't specialised, and we really can't much.

I think that it should be possible to turn a Wolf, providing that's how the virus/curse/plot-device works, but I don't think it would be at all ethical to change anything other than a pup, who's still in the learning stages. Changing a fully grown Wolf would be an act of cruelty, because they'd find it so much more difficult to acclimatise to being a Human.

Think of it like Mowgli, a child raised by animals has no grasp of Human language or culture, as you've said. All Humans in society have a basic grasp of both linguistic skills and cultural understanding, that's how--with effort--we can integrate into other Human cultures, by using what we know to learn a new language and acclimatise ourselves to a new culture.

A Human that was brought up without any of these basics would have so much trouble that it may, in the end, be next to impossible to introduce a shifted Wolf into Human society, because they'd keep falling back on their Wolf talents (call 'em instincts, if you want) which they learned as a pup, and find it hard to utilise, or even possibly understand, the Human way of doing things.

So, possible? Certainly, it makes for an interesting plot element and the things that can come of that. Should it be done? Well, only if the ethical implications are ignored. If I were a Werewolf, I wouldn't do it under any circumstances, not even on risk of death.

I've got another one for you, too; given that the virus/curse/plot-device/thingydoofer is adaptable enough to work with a Wolf, what if it could work with other creatures too? What would one get if a Werewolf were to bite a Tiger? What would come of a Gorilla being bitten by a Werewolf? I find those interesting conundrums too.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Terastas »

I think it could be possible, but like you said, it poses a lot of moral and ethical questions that would discourage most werewolves from ever even considering it.

Something else you'd have to think about is the nature of the shift induced by the virus/plot device. In my own writing, werewolves can push themselves into full human or full wolf form, but a natural unchecked shift only goes as far as the gestalt form. A wolf infected with lycanthropy may not have to learn how to behave like a human because it may never develop the capacity to push itself to become completely human. It's no picnic learning how to shift; the werewolves in my writing all had to learn how from another werewolf because, simply put, only another werewolf of the same original species could be able to communicate with and relate to the first-time shifter. A wolf given lycanthropy would not only be unable to push into a full human state, they may never develop the capacity to refrain from shifting either.

As for the mating thing, well. . . I've got two works right now: the "present day" story, and my Noctem project I've currently shelved since it's going to take a long time to complete. Obviously nobody's ever tried inter-species mating in the present day for all the above-mentioned reasons on top of the legal repercussions, but in the Noctem, I have it written that lycanthropy breaks down and distorts the host's DNA and becomes dormant if its host is at the cellular level (IE: the womb). What that generally means is that the DNA from the egg and sperm cancels out and the baby instead acquires its genetic buildup predominantly through the mother's umbilical cord (or something like that), so in the case of inter-species couples, the baby always inherits the species of the mother with only some minor traits (if any at all) inherited from the father.

So by that definition, if a human werewolf tried to impregnate a wolf, the baby would be a wolf that might have a hint of his heritage evident in its eye or fur color. The downside, of course, would be that the pup's lycanthropy became dormant and inactive while at the cellular level, so the pup won't be able to shift until its older anyway. That, of course, would defeat the purpose.

As for age, that's easy to address: One of the symptoms of lycanthropy is enhanced regeneration. If you think of old age as being caused by the body decaying faster than it can repair, lycanthropy could potentially negate entirely the effects of aging and allow a werewolf of any species to live well beyond their years. A lycanthrope of any species wouldn't grow up at a rate any different from their species of origin, but once at their prime, I think they would tend to stay there.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Scott Gardener »

It depends on if you interpret werewolves as biological or magical. If you favor a biological approach, then no; a virus-like vector has enough of a time turning people into wolves, but toting around a means of turning wolves into humans, too, would be too much. If you go the magic route, on the other hand, then by all means!

One could imagine werewolves who started out as wolves and learned to be human. They'd have a very different perspective on things.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Vuldari »

Other ...

The way I see lycanthropy in my head, it is not simply a granting of metamorphical ability, but an infusion of Lupine qualities into a human, with the capacity to display them through temporary total or partial restructuring into a Lupine form.

It's like a patch to a computer program ... the base program is not in the patch ... only the modifications. As such, Lycanthropy would NOT include the genetic code for a human being, but merely the instructions on how to modify one into a wolf.

Thus, biting a wolf would likely do nothing, or maybe kill it. If it did anything, it would probably make the poor creature unstable, both physically and psychologically ... resulting in maybe a wolf that seems a bit crazy, but is strangely hard to kill since it heals so well ... or doesn't heal at all and dies quickly ... or is mutated in some strange way, possibly making it bigger and slightly malformed.


I personally DON'T like the idea of a Werewolf biting a Wolf resulting in a WolfWere at all ... it certainly would never work that way in any story I ever wrote about werewolves. It just feels kind of cheesy and lame to me. ... I seem to remember an episode of "Rescue Rangers" about a scenario like that (a wolf turning into a human). Funny ... but not my idea of how Lycanthropy works.

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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Vagrant »

I'm actually curious about that, Scott. Would the reversal of the process be significantly more difficult/impossible in all cases?

On an entirely theoretical basis, I've been working something into one of my Worlds that utilises a piconstruct hive to do the deed, something of extraterrestrial origin that works on a very low level. And something that went a bit grey goo scenario, in its own way, but I digress.

Could an artificial virus, of technological origins rather than biological ones, pull this off? Again, theoretically, and just because I value your input and I like hearing what you'd have to say on such topics.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Wingman »

Well, this is just the type that I use, but an animal that gets infected can certainly change, but they are restricted to the animal forms, so they can certainly go into near-beast which would be larger and more primal than the normal animal, but that's about it. Of course, for my guys it originally started with wolves anyways, and so it's changing whoever gets it to be more similar to a wolf, so it doesn't have all that much effect on something that's already similar to a wolf. I could possibly see an animal being able to go to gestalt form, but that's as far towards human as I'm willing to take it.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by RedEye »

I have to wonder. Certainly a Werewolf could bite a standard-issue wolf; let's face it, they have the teeth for it.
My question would be why?
The S.I. Wolf would not react in a pleasant way. Said wolf might try to turn the Werewolf into supper, or at least an entree'.
To the S.I. Wolf, the bite would be an attack; and the wolf would reply in kind.
As to what would happen, that would depend on the wolf, the Werewolf, and the Universe they inhabit.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Malignant-Librarian »

@Celestialwolf: I think that's a really interesting question.

I personally theorize this:

A werewolf that bites a true wolf will only harm it, and perhaps end up accidentally infecting it with a disease a human might transmit to a dog. The wolf will experience no adverse effects -- except, of course, death by mauling before it can begin to think of how much the first bite hurt it.

Now, supposing your theory that a wolf can be bitten by a werewolf and inflicted with lycanthropy:

I would think the rate of successful transmission would be much lower than for a lycanthrope biting a human being. If the wolf were somehow infected, though, the disease would probably mutate to function from a canid base as opposed to homo sapiens. After that, skipping the gory details of the wolf being ostracized from her pack after her legs mysterious begin to lengthen and her fur fall out, as well as the sudden scent change... she would be devastated.

The lupine brain is intelligent, but not on the same level as that of a human (unfortunately). She might be ruined, but for the strong thread of survival instinct that forces her to keep trying to coexist either amongst wolves that (most likely) reject her or bipeds who don't understand how a human being of her age can be so shockingly naiive and helpless.

Everyone else has already touched on the difficulties of a wolf living as a human, as opposed to vice-versa, so I'll just end my drabbles here.

@Scott Gardener: You bring up a great point; we all go one of three ways; magic, science, or a mix! :)


@RedEye:
I'd have to politely disagree with the thought that the true wolf would attack a werewolf in return for being bitten. Being something of animal behavioralist, I'm fascinated particularly by lupine and canine behavioral traits. Frankly, the wolf is more likely to turn tail and run like the devil is on its heels than to retaliate, unless it is cornered.

@Terastas: I completely and wholeheartedly agree with your theory on the true wolf's inability to push itself to the transformation to human. Well said!
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Scott Gardener »

My own storyline werewolves are biological rather than magical, as my story aims for hard core plausibility. (Being Wiccan, I believe in magic, but the magic I believe in doesn't work that way.) And thus, if one of my werewolves were to bite a wolf, the wolf would not get anything except a bite wound. Lycanthropy might try to infect a near-human organism like a chimpanzee, but the chimp would die within a few days of the initial infection, before the first shift.

The virus-like organism that causes lycanthropy in my storyline was deliberately engineered thousands of years ago by an outside entity that wanted to see what would happen. They got the idea from tribal humans, who performed rituals asking to be transformed into wolves to help them hunt. The outside entity is a group of crystalline creatures, very alien both in biology and mindset, which think of themselves collectively as a being called "Four One." The humans prayed to become wolves, and wham! It actually happened. And, to their astonishment, it wasn't at all what they were expecting it to be.

(In the mid-twentieth century, human agencies would catalog them as "CZ aliens," but the CZ don't call themselves that. I intended for them to be as completely out there and enigmatic as I could make them, though I was stunned to see after envisioning them for 15-20 years that the recent Transformers movie's brief depiction of the Autobots' homeworld of Cybertron, with its jagged and pointy machinery, looked a lot like what I had in mind--killer snowflakes on acid. But, I'm getting off subject quite a bit.)

The organism is the size of a monstrously huge virus or very undersized bacterium, about 200 nanometers. It's designed so that it can be replicated from molecules found inside humans--which thankfully happens to be a place where everything one needs to make a wolf can be found. An inoculation takes about about a thousand individual organisms to be contagious, depending upon location, though in theory a single organism could cause seroconversion, provided it infected an active lymphocyte rather than a fairly inert connective tissue cell. It's pretty contagious--more like Hepatitis than HIV as far as risk of contact. But, like HIV, it is fairly unstable outside a living host, so one cannot get lycanthropy from a hand shake or a dirty toilet seat.

It is designed to infect the whole body but without destroying it, and thus it is rather selective about which cells are put to use generating more viruses. Some are converted specifically into virus-generating nodes. The process of infection initially would take place through local spread and then through the lymphatic system, before the bloodstream would disseminate it throughout the body, targeting areas of high blood flow first, including the brain, lungs, heart, and kidneys. (Real life cancer does this; I've used the behavior of lymphoma as a point of reference.)

Engineering such a thing requires a tremendous amount of planning; trial-and-error evolution (to those of you who aren't specifically pushy about "Intelligent Design") seems plausible for a four billion year evolution from bacteria to us, but taking an existing organism and redesigning it on a molecular level in and out while it's still actively living and carrying out metabolic activity is a pretty tall order. The viruses would need complex instructions on how to build a communication network to coordinate shifting, so the human organism wouldn't get killed--the process could otherwise overheat the body; herniate the brain; set off seizures; break away atherosclerotic plaques leading to stroke, heart attack, or pulmonary embolism--getting bones to flex and resize would be the least of one's concerns.

With this amount of work and engineering, it's doubtful that such a thing could accidentally do too much more than what it's designed to do. If one can make such a thing at all, it's not a big stretch to make it heal quickly, since it pretty much has to in order to fix all the damage it causes. But walking on walls or shooting lighting sparks from one's fingers like a Sith Lord is probably out unless one really feels the need to go to all the extra trouble to engineer even more complexity in an already difficult task.

Why aliens? Because it's the easiest way I can figure out how to have someone come up with the thing. Humans aren't going to engineer this thing any time soon; we'd have to invent too many other things we don't have right now--to get to the point where we have that kind of technology, we'd have to along the way cure cancer, bioengineer immortality, and undergo an extropian singularity. It's not plausible that, say, a group of scientists or a secret government agency would develop lycanthropy itself on their own, because no one in one's right mind would go through developing biotechnology perhaps a century more advanced than what we have today and then go through the additional trouble of not getting rich, not curing every disease known to humanity, and not making all that extra work amount to anything other than an occasional creature sighting. So, I'm kind of left with aliens, with a strange mindset that's hard to figure out. And that seems believable, since I wouldn't expect an alien intelligence to have motivations that are easy to figure out.

I do admittedly have to deal with the problem that if it's contagious, and if a person with it is overall better off than one without it, then it ultimately in due time will be selectively favored into abundance--that is, it would be almost inevitable that lycanthropy would run rampant and infect everyone. But, though I don't do very well explaining why this hasn't happened yet, I do have a fun time letting my character losing a lot of sleep worrying about it.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Wingman »

Scott, you could always go FOXDIE on it and have only people with specific genetic markers be affected. So anyone can be a carrier, but it's only going to affect those few people, probably the ones descended from whatever tribe/family/village the virus was originally engineered with. And yeah, after even only a couple hundred years they could have increased in number exponentially. Ghengis Khan has something like over a million descendants just by himself, so it's not too much of a stretch to say a group of people could have a similar number of offspring by now. And really, due to population density and grouping, someone might run around an entire area, and everyone can be infected and changed, but go a couple hundred miles away where the family hasn't been living for the past couple decades and suddenly it's a different story. So, there might not be any new werewolves because the character's preventative measures are that effective, or because he hasn't infected someone who fits the parameters. Likewise, there could be other triggers, either internal or external. Depending on the rarity it can allow someone to become a carrier, but never actually become a lycanthrope themselves.

That's part of how I work my homebrew vampirism/lycanthropy, that and different stages of infection.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Malignant-Librarian »

@Scott Gardener: I want to read your story now. XD
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Vagrant »

I feel that way about Scott's story, RedEye's, and lycanthropeful's. I know RedEye is getting his story published, so I'll be able to buy that, but I swear... one of these days I'm going to get around to hooking up my printer to see if it still works, so I can print out the others and read them. As I see it, they deserve to be read. There are so many writers here who are simply a collective font of good ideas.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Wingman »

http://www.jonlrabbit.bravepages.com/
Thar it be, the download link is about halfway down the site. I've been on-again off-again trying to read it for the last couple months, but I keep getting distracted.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Aki »

If it's magic it might be possible but if you're using a virus/etc. I highly doubt it as virii and their ilk tend towards being highly specialized for one sort of animal (canines, primates, etc.) with a few notable exceptions (like rabies) who jump the species barrier like it didn't exist. Most however won't do this - if you've got AIDs and a dog bites you and draws blood he's at no risk at all - AIDs is a primate disease, not a canine one.

Lycanthropy, I think, would by it's very nature have to be as specialized and specificed as AIDs is. The disease is geared to turn a human into a wolf or wolf-like creature and back again, which doesn't sound at all like it would interface well with a canine host - it's not geared to turn a wolf into a human or human-like creature. At best you might get a wolf who turns into a bigger nastier wolf or some sort of wolf-man, as that's the sort of change the virus is designed to give - the virus wouldn't have the code to give the wolf a human shape, as it's assumed that the host already has this code. But most likely nothing would happen to the wolf.

It'd be like trying to use a virus written for Windows 95 to attack a Linux machine. It'd fail outright. Can't even begin to interface.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Malignant-Librarian »

@Aki: ... ~snuggles up~ I... lub joo. <3
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Aki »

:o

Awesome. :D

What'd I do to deserve such lub? :?
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Wingman »

Aki wrote::o

Awesome. :D

What'd I do to deserve such lub? :?
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Malignant-Librarian »

@Aki: You were your wonderful self! HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO!

@Wingman: And you and I have yet to set a date...
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Wingman »

Malignant-Librarian wrote: @Wingman: And you and I have yet to set a date...
A date, eh?
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Aki »

Wingman wrote: You are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Aw bugger, not ketchup. Can't stand the stuff. :grinp:
Malignant-Librarian wrote:@Aki: You were your wonderful self! HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO!

@Wingman: And you and I have yet to set a date...
So that's the secret! :lol:

Also I think I'll shut up now before we enter thread-drift.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Malignant-Librarian »

@Wingman: Yes, silly, a date! We ARE engaged, remember. ;)

And, for the sake of staying on-topic as well as my own desire to add points..

@Scott Gardener: How big is 200 nanometers? I don't get this stuff very well. Like... period-sized? And where do the virus-generating nodes stay?
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Vagrant »

Ooh, may I answer this one?

All 'bout nanometres!

The best part of the article for a really visual mental comparison is where it points out that--as an approximation--a single strand of hair is 80,000 nanometres wide.
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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Moonraiser »

Sure, a werewolf could bite a normal wolf. But would it change them? I do not believe so. I think that all it might do, is piss the wolf off, and make them not like you so much...Or maybe it might transferr some of the werewolf's abilities to that wolf, like, a little extra protection, the ability to live longer, (werewolves live about 20 years more than humans. Go to Celestialwolf's site to learn more.) and maybe they might also inherit some sort of "allergy" to silver. (Again, go to Celestialwolf's site to learn more.) I think that if a werewolf bites a wolf, that it would not go farther than just pissing the wolf off, but there might be some side affects, as I have mentioned. Well let me know what you think guys...Here is Celestialwolf's website: http://werewolf.rcromar.com

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Re: Should a Werewolf Bite a Wolf?

Post by Celestialwolf »

Wow! You referenced my site like I was a werewolf authority or something! :o While those are my views on how they should be, everyone does have their own opinions. That's what I love about this place--I always get so many ideas and new insights after reading what everyone has to say, things I probably never would have even considered before on my own!

P.S. The new Pack wiki is up. Contribute! :D
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