Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Ookami-kun »

...but rather, reconstructing what has been destroyed by Hollywood.

According to a poster in a thread regarding myth creatures, it seems that werewolves aren't really evil bastards on their first conception. They're not weak to stuff at all - as they're godlike. A werewolf == god, not necessarily good or evil. However, the Dark Ages created connotations to them being dark and such (as back then lycanthrope == paganism), and present archetypes dwell on it.

So we're fighting for reconstruction after all!
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Ceekur »

I like the sound of this. If it is actually true, then we're not trying to adjust the image to fit how certain werewolf fans want it (not that I mind), but actually restoring an image forgotten for hundreds of years! :howl:  :oo

All the more reason to pursue what we have been doing for years.

Now we just need to gather some solid citations about this history and our journey will be strengthened.
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Wingman »

Just another indication that there are very few original ideas left in the world.
Ookami-kun wrote: They're not weak to stuff at all - as they're godlike. A werewolf == god, not necessarily good or evil.
Universally, no they're not any more godlike than the berserkers, Native American shamans, or anyone else who was reputed to be able to change shape in myth.

Though yes, lycanthropy as a whole was not originally good or evil, though it could certainly be used for those ends.

Really there are too many different versions and ideals and preferences to make any comment about lycanthropy and have it apply to them all.

Any historical evidence would be circumstantial and likely incomplete, as the recorded version would be affected by the knowledge and beliefs of the time, as well as the resources of the source you're citing. Look a few countries to the left and you'll probably find an opposite type of lycanthropy.

I see your Loup Garou and raise you a Mexican cheese-stealing rapist werewolf that's repelled by iron and clothing. Mentioned somewhere on here.
For every godlike werewolf, there's going to be a pathetic mongrel as well.
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Berserker »

The major caveat to reconstructing the werewolf is that we can only see the werewolf through a lens that has already been distorted by media.

We romanticize the werewolf, applying our anthropomorphic fantasies to him in form and appearance, infusing him with New Age idealism like tribalism and Native American motif, attributing a gentle, ecological nature to him in some cases, where in others he becomes an adventurer, avenger, or some other kind of superman. Do these attributes truly belong to the beast, or are they modern daydreams?

Probably a little of both, but unfortunately, the truth is that descriptions of werewolves from the ancient past lack detail, and accounts are few and far between. If we were to travel back in time to speak with some Northern tribesman, and ask him his opinion on werewolves, what would he say? There's no way to know for sure.

All we have to go on is what happened to the werewolf afterward. To say that the Church made him evil is true, but was he ever really "good," as in, not a ravenous beast intent on eating innocent people?

My theory is that the ancient werewolf was beyond good and evil. He was a symbol of the interaction between man and animal that had a nature far more functional than ethical. He was a wild beast, resilient, resourceful, a very deadly hunter: what man wished to be, as he donned his animal skins and stalked the woods in packs. The bond between wolf and man was so simple as to be intrinsic; there was likely no need for thought or analysis about what the werewolf meant.

And that's what makes reconstructing him so difficult. We come from a different mindset, and our version of the werewolf is an overblown facsimile of the original, weighed down with a bulk of post-modern meaning; and yet, we preserve him.

EDIT: posted before seeing Wingman's reply
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Cyberwatt »

Interesting topic and equally interesting responses so far.

I agree that a great deal of deconstruction and "re-creation" goes on amongst the devotees of werewolves and related therianthropes; this is human nature. My sincere hope is that we will utilize our creative energies to display a werewolf that is a true product of our fondest wishes, i.e. a proactive creation rather than a mere reaction against those elements we find distasteful.

I agree that "original" ideas are hard to come by, but in truth I don't think an original thought has really been created for centuries: much of what we come up with is based upon our own experience, shared or personal, and these experiences are characteristic of humanity as a whole. The longer history is recorded, the more we will see of this.

This is as it should be, by the way. Truly original thoughts are not necessarily required; rather let us say it is desirable to construct concepts based on upon true life experiences that you can write about with both passion and deep knowledge. "A writer must write of which she knows" is a common phrase that points to this concept. Without solid data behind your ideas, they seem half-finished and implausible. With data, they are inherently well-founded.

When anyone ever asks me about writing, teaching, or presenting, I give many hints; but the first one I give is always, "Find your passion." What you feel excited about is the best thing to present to someone else. From a werewolf perspective, create ideas based on what drives you. If you find yourself getting charged over ecology and love of animals, write about lycanthropes that guard what is sacred to you. If you like tales of superheroic adventurers, create ideas about these intrepid shape-shifters saving the world. And if you have a bent toward the dark side, don't be afraid to present monstrous tales of mutilations, haunting screams on the moors, and yellow eyes glowing in the dark.

A unified perspective we may never achieve, but that's all right in my opinion. When it comes to real life issues, we cannot absorb contrary views. But in our dreams, we are free to visualize the passions that drive us, be they contradictory or coalescing.

Cheers and happy creating,
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Mr_Atrox »

Cyberwatt wrote:
A unified perspective we may never achieve, but that's all right in my opinion. When it comes to real life issues, we cannot absorb contrary views. But in our dreams, we are free to visualize the passions that drive us, be they contradictory or coalescing.

Cheers and happy creating,
CW
Well put. I would only add this: Why in the world would anyone assume that everyone would hold the same views as the next? As varied as people will be is just how varied the manifestation of Herr Ulf will be. So what? To each his own. Things will be as they are meant to be, just as in nature and if one "animal" is meant to be over another - it will be, naturally so.
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by RedEye »

In the novel "Wulfen Blood" my Werewolves are anything but re-casts of the Hollywood myths.
They are actually afraid of the Smoothskin Humans they live with, and for obvious reasons. Yet they work and live along side of them, "Passing in Smooth", because they are humans too; with one extra capability that only they have.
I'll agree that a lot of members here seem to like the "Destruction Image" that Hollywood has made, and for a simple reason: Super-Badness = Power. Power is seductive and to some of our people, that power is all they are interested in.
If Werewolves were a real population group, they couldn't be that way; simply because when the monster dies at the end of the movie, they haven't reproduced. No reproduction = no population = extinction, whether they are naturals, supernaturals, cursed, or semi-divine.
The Werewolf as the destroyer is the image that people who don't know Werewolves use the most, while those who have studied them (for any reason) see an entirely different being.
If they were to exist, they'd have to be...
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Gevaudan »

Mr_Atrox wrote:Well put. I would only add this: Why in the world would anyone assume that everyone would hold the same views as the next?
You'd be surprised how often that happens. :D
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Vagrant »

I'm thinking interesting things.

Or rather, they're interesting to me and I'm not sure if they'll be of merit to anyone else, but I'm going to share them anyway, despite the fact that they aren't quite as eloquent as the other responses here. Damn the torpedoes and all that.

This I was thinking from the start, and it was more given form by Berserker's reply. The werewolf once was symbology, it was what each person or group of people desired the werewolf to be at that time, so is it today. In days past, hunters, in these modern times we consider things like ethics.

There are many things I like about the Wolf, without even considering the werewolf. When I consider the werewolf, the symbology is that I'm taking the best of what I am; my sense of ethics and hopelessly romantic nature, and adding it to the best of what the Wolf is; loyal to a fault, incredibly aware of his surroundings, observant, and enduring beyond most odds.

I perhaps inflate these with my idealistic leanings, but that's how I approach my werewolf. So what we're doing today isn't really any different to what those hunters and shamans once did, the environment around us shapes the nature of the dreams, and what is and isn't a necessity changes as well.

I also think that there are those who would try to convey this image to others, and they would not understand why a man would want to be a Wolf, such a thing would be considered strange, an abomination indeed. We've seen examples of this throughout history, just look at the pursuit of magic, or even being gay, anything that isn't 'common'.

What I think we're trying to do is uphold the better part of this and trying to convey it in a way so that people can understand the more basic elements of these dreams without wanting to twist them into some kind of abomination. I think that's why we want to see our kind of werewolf become popular.

In other words, we simply would like for other people to not see our dreams, or indeed, in some cases our inner selves, as aberrations. If we popularise our approach, that's going to be less and less the case, but if the monster is popularised instead then our dreams will never be all that eagerly accepted.

These are just some thoughts I was chewing over anyway, I won't add any more to that because if I do I'll start verbally chasing my tail. So take it as you will!
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Ookami-kun »

They're god-like in a sense that gods themselves are technically the first werewolves.
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Terastas »

Berserker wrote:We romanticize the werewolf, applying our anthropomorphic fantasies to him in form and appearance, infusing him with New Age idealism like tribalism and Native American motif, attributing a gentle, ecological nature to him in some cases, where in others he becomes an adventurer, avenger, or some other kind of superman. Do these attributes truly belong to the beast, or are they modern daydreams?
I think it's human nature to romanticize anything. The same people that infuse the werewolf with Celtic and/or Native American tribalism are the same people that would delve into it themselves should they become werewolves.

There are also, as RedEye stated, people that romanticize power; people that would be just as happy to become a vampire, pazuzzu demon, or anything else they could use to prop themselves up above their fellow man.

Taking that into account, there really doesn't need to be a detailed account of the original werewolf myth since the true "nature" of the beast, whatever it may be, will almost always be overridden by human nature. If you think of it that way, lycanthropy is just an amplifier: upon contracting lycanthropy, the people with hero complexes, persecution complexes and superiority complexes will all have something they can use to validate those feelings.

So while we're not necessarily creating a new idea, I would say that we're bringing an old idea into an era that has all but forgotten it; a new spin on an old idea, if you will.
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Silveera-Ice »

Terastas wrote:
Berserker wrote:We romanticize the werewolf, applying our anthropomorphic fantasies to him in form and appearance, infusing him with New Age idealism like tribalism and Native American motif, attributing a gentle, ecological nature to him in some cases, where in others he becomes an adventurer, avenger, or some other kind of superman. Do these attributes truly belong to the beast, or are they modern daydreams?
I think it's human nature to romanticize anything. The same people that infuse the werewolf with Celtic and/or Native American tribalism are the same people that would delve into it themselves should they become werewolves.

There are also, as RedEye stated, people that romanticize power; people that would be just as happy to become a vampire, pazuzzu demon, or anything else they could use to prop themselves up above their fellow man.

Taking that into account, there really doesn't need to be a detailed account of the original werewolf myth since the true "nature" of the beast, whatever it may be, will almost always be overridden by human nature. If you think of it that way, lycanthropy is just an amplifier: upon contracting lycanthropy, the people with hero complexes, persecution complexes and superiority complexes will all have something they can use to validate those feelings.

So while we're not necessarily creating a new idea, I would say that we're bringing an old idea into an era that has all but forgotten it; a new spin on an old idea, if you will.
Well, its better to restore the original idea of werewolves, even if it is romantisizing, its still better than the crazy hollywood mental ravening beast idea, because all that is purely just for entertainment.
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Terastas »

Silveera-Ice wrote:Well, its better to restore the original idea of werewolves, even if it is romantisizing, its still better than the crazy hollywood mental ravening beast idea, because all that is purely just for entertainment.
*shrugs* I think there's still a place for the mental raving beast. It just shouldn't be the only possible idea.

What I was trying to get at in that last post is that lycanthropy doesn't necessarily change the the person's mindset and/or behavior, rather it becomes their obsession -- their excuse for the way they think or behave -- and amplifies it.

The optimist:
Before lycanthropy: "I just know I was meant to do something great with my life."
After lycanthropy: "I've been given a remarkable gift; I must use it wisely."

The douche bag:
Before lycanthropy: "I make more money / have a better car / get more sex than you, so nyah!"
After lycanthropy: "I'm a werewolf and you're just a normal human, so nyah!"

The egomaniac:
Before lycanthropy: "Look at them. Fools, all of them. I should be running things around here."
After lycanthropy: "Look at them. Cattle, all of them. We should be ruling the humans, not living among them."

The self-proclaimed martyr:
Before lycanthropy: "Why do only bad things ever happen to me?"
After lycanthropy: "Do you know how hard it is to live as a werewolf?"

The office rampager:
Before lycanthropy: "I just couldn't take it anymore. I never wanted to hurt anyone!"
After lycanthropy: "I have a monster lurking inside me. I never wanted to hurt anyone!"

One of the hardest things anyone could do, I'm convinced, is give themselves something as extraordinary as lycanthropy and not let it influence their thoughts or emotions in any way shape or form. Very rarely, I think, would anyone ever change into a completely different person as a result of contracting lycanthropy (or anything else, for that matter). Their behavior would be the same; lycanthropy would just become the excuse.
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Gevaudan »

Terastas wrote:One of the hardest things anyone could do, I'm convinced, is give themselves something as extraordinary as lycanthropy and not let it influence their thoughts or emotions in any way shape or form. Very rarely, I think, would anyone ever change into a completely different person as a result of contracting lycanthropy (or anything else, for that matter). Their behavior would be the same; lycanthropy would just become the excuse.
And when their behavior does change, it's almost always for the worse. Couldn't one create a sociopathic monster out of the average happy-go-lucky, neighborly citizen? Maybe lycanthropy could expose or amplify something that was suppressed or hidden away for quite some time. For example, if a child witnesses his mother's murder and somehow suppresses those bad thoughts, and later contracts lycanthropy as an "average" adult, wouldn't those disturbing feelings come to surface and manifest themselves through the werewolf?
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Terastas »

Gevaudan wrote:Couldn't one create a sociopathic monster out of the average happy-go-lucky, neighborly citizen?
Well. . . No, not literally. At least not by the example you provided. In that example, the happy-go-lucky neighborly citizen is just a facade -- he maintains a cheery exterior in order to fool everyone around him into thinking he is normal, and possibly by extension to fool himself into thinking everything is fine too. Contracting lycanthropy might make it more difficult for him to maintain that exterior presentation, but it wouldn't have literally changed him from from a neighborly neighbor to a total sociopath. He was a sociopath to begin with; he'd just previously been masquerading as something else.
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Bloodyredbaron »

When you rip away the qualities that make a creature of legend what it is, in the end it's not what you started out with. Part of the allure of the werewolf tale is the story of a man becoming a monster, perhaps against his will or even without his knowledge. Making werewolves "just one of the guys" kind of strips away what a werewolf is in my opinion.
Ookami-kun wrote:According to a poster in a thread regarding myth creatures, it seems that werewolves aren't really evil bastards on their first conception. They're not weak to stuff at all -as they're godlike. A werewolf == god, not necessarily good or evil.
Who is this poster? Point me in his direction because I'd like to know where he is getting his information. Also, did you bother to verify or even check his sources? Did you even ask?
RedEye wrote: I'll agree that a lot of members here seem to like the "Destruction Image" that Hollywood has made, and for a simple reason: Super-Badness = Power. Power is seductive and to some of our people, that power is all they are interested in.
Actually, from where I stand it looks like the "werewolves are people too" crowd are the ones who lust after the power of the werewolf. The power it brings has no drawbacks either, silver is really no problem, no more than any other metal, you can shapeshift, painlessly and effortlessly into a big beautiful, probably buff human/wolf hybrid with super strength and speed. The werewolves you describe are above the petty corruption on the stinking, cruel thing called man, and you only want to be accepted even though people are just so gosh darn mean.

You want the powers of a werewolf, but none of the drawbacks.
RedEye wrote:If Werewolves were a real population group, they couldn't be that way; simply because when the monster dies at the end of the movie, they haven't reproduced. No reproduction = no population = extinction, whether they are naturals, supernaturals, cursed, or semi-divine.
Let's take a look at the monster dies at the end of the movie and has not reproduced claim, which is often enough not the case. The werewolf either somehow survives or it's curse does because the werewolf can, and often does, reproduce by passing on a contagion. Also this theory needs to assume that in a rank and file werewolf movie the werewolf hasn't existed in the universe of the film before the opening credits start to roll past. This is a logical fallacy, if the werewolf has existed before the events of the movie takes place then it's safe to assume that he or she has infected at least one person.
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Gevaudan »

No need for the sarcasm, Bloodyredbaron.
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Vagrant »

Bloodyredbaron wrote:You want the powers of a werewolf, but none of the drawbacks.
I'm sorry BRB, but there's a lot wrong with that...

Okay, first of all, let's look at "drawbacks", at the start of your post you go on and on about sources and such, and yet here you are claiming that you're an authoritative source of information regarding werewolves by even claiming that they have drawbacks. Aside from citing movies, what proof do you have of that?

What I'm getting at is that until we have a werewolf right in front of us, it's a mythological creature that only exists within probability and imagination, and therefore there are no rules in regards to it. There have been loads of different takes on it, but none of those would prove to be an authority on what a werewolf is, either. So we don't actually know what a werewolf's drawbacks are or even if they have any. We can say we 'want' them to have drawbacks*, but that's a different matter than claiming that all werewolves should/do.

The other part of this I wanted to deal with is that I believe you're confused by what RedEye was saying. RedEye was talking about power, as in, 'power over'. For example, if I had sharp claws, a buff body, and the intent to use those to my advantage (this is important) then I'd have power over overs, that's the kind of power RedEye was talking about, that he said was seductive.

What you're talking about is more like capabilities, and simply having the means to do something does not explicitly imply intent. For example, an athletic person has a really good set of legs, but that doesn't mean they plan on using them to dropkick people or even threaten to that extent. So just because a person can do something, doesn't mean they suffer power-lust.

* For the record, there are drawbacks you may not have considered. RedEye's werewolves have interesting ones, so there can be different drawbacks too that may not have occurred to you. So what I think you should be saying is that 'you want the powers of a werewolf, but you want it without my chosen drawbacks'.
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Bloodyredbaron »

"I hope some animal never bores a hole in my head and lays its eggs in my brain, because later you might think you're having a good idea but it's just eggs hatching."
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Wingman »

I just love how topics drift like this.

Last I checked, wish fulfillment via favorite creature or condition is as common as dirt. So why are we arguing about it?
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by RedEye »

Because the writers are human.

And I really don't want to see this become a full blown argument, guys.

Read the Sticky again, okay?
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Terastas »

Bloodyredbaron wrote:Actually, from where I stand it looks like the "werewolves are people too" crowd are the ones who lust after the power of the werewolf. The power it brings has no drawbacks either, silver is really no problem, no more than any other metal, you can shapeshift, painlessly and effortlessly into a big beautiful, probably buff human/wolf hybrid with super strength and speed. The werewolves you describe are above the petty corruption on the stinking, cruel thing called man, and you only want to be accepted even though people are just so gosh darn mean.
I can't speak for everyone, but my take on the "werewolves are people too" is that werewolves are not above petty corruption, but that they are just as susceptible to it as the average man and should be given the same benefit of a doubt.

A benefit which, frankly, both werewolves and the average man are not often given. Just as some people will automatically write all werewolves off as savage and bloodthirsty, some people will also write off humanity as selfish and greedy. The Pack used to attract all kinds of threads about how "people suck and I wish they were all dead" or something to that effect, and still do every now and then.

The "human" approach to werewolves is one that accounts for these possibilities and more; the possibility that a werewolf could be just as virtuous, or just as vile, as any human could ever be.

The werewolves in my own writing are human in the sense that they share different opinions, and consequently conflict with each other just as humans do. The only difference is that, instead of bickering over material possession or ideology, most of their disagreements are about what it means to be a werewolf. Because, like I said, it wouldn't be possible to acquire lycanthropy and not let it influence you. For better or worse, it's the primary concern of everyone that has it.
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Berserker
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Berserker »

Terastas wrote:instead of bickering over ... ideology, most of their disagreements are about
I hate to nitpick, but:
what it means to be a werewolf.
is ideology.
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Terastas
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by Terastas »

Berserker wrote:I hate to nitpick, but:
what it means to be a werewolf.
is ideology.
I meant ideologies as in politics and/or religion. It's my fault though; I should have specified that in the first place.
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Re: Apparently we aren't trying to give a different approach...

Post by blackwolfhell »

One thing I learned was in japanese lore:
Amaterasu is the sun god. When he comes down to earth, he takes the form of a wolf.

That may be the god like quality. There is also another book series call wolf's rain that has a few theries on werewolf orgins. hwlwnk
Release all that you hold dear, and become the night.
Werewolves don't get high on drugs, they run

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