This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
Continuation Of the ubove...Located at the end of Page 2
Now lets take a closer look at status within a pack of wolves. We find very similar aspects within our way of life even to this day, just on a much larger scale. Take the government for example. Now lets say they are the alpha, or the top wolf.
Then comes the beta, or the second in charge, this is people like the police, judges, and others who are in authority, who are both a part of and separate from the government, who in force the governments rules and regulations, even though the government isn't their at that moment.
Then there is the Mid-Rank, this is people like us, that has to follow what the Alpha and the beta tells us to.
Then their is the Omega, this is the lowest of the low. and are not often treated with respect. they just are. even so they still have a purpose, but are often over looked.
And lastly, there is the Lone-Wolf.
This is our outcast those of our race who have no home, those who are in prison for challenging the alpha, and the beta, or those who died in the attempt of challenging. A Lone-Wolf is a wolf who has been thrown out of a pack, sometimes they become a part of another pack, however this does not happen often. Now take the Lone-Wolf of the human kind. If they live through their attempt to challenge the Alpha and/or the beta, then they are thrown into prison. Once a person has been thrown into prison, then their they stay, till their sentence has been served.
However, even those who manage to get out of prison, find that they are still outcast, or a Lone-Wolf. And just like a real Lone-Wolf, only every-so-often does one manage to become a part of another Pack.
This just proves that we are more like the wolf then one might believe we are, Does it not?
Werewolfdragon wrote:
This just proves that we are more like the wolf then one might believe we are, Does it not?
Actually your example is too complicated. A wolf pack is a family, that's all it is. The Alphas are the parents. Big brother and big sister can boss around little brother and little sister. The most annoying kid usually turns out to be the Omega. Human families are pretty much the exact same thing.
The hierarchy of dominance in a wolf family is greatly exaggerated. Early observations about constant struggles for dominance among wolves were based on unrelated animals in captivity; the equivalent of street gangs. We know better these days.
I decided to re post this from the end of PG 2 so this is in the foreground:
I sadly have to agree. there are to few of us who understand what needs to be done to repair the world. And ultimately this means that what needs to be done can't be done. Also some of what would need to be done would be Wrong! after all who can even begin to ask, even in the light of world over population, for people to give up their lives? No body can. Yes Most have grown weak, and in nature, weakness means death. this is natures way of keeping nature in balance with it's self.
However this is not something humanity shares it's views with. In the old days humans either lived or died, their was no in between, the strong lived on, and the weak simply returned to nature, such was the cycle of nature. However to ask anyone to return to this way of life is wrong. and would cause more harm in todays way of things then it would good.
As for me comparing humanity to that of wolves. I can't say why I do this. some would say I am crazy. Am I ? Maybe. However if you look at some of the brilliant people in history you would most likely find out that in their time they were viewed as crazy as well. Now these very same people are viewed as some of histories most brilliant minds.
To the closed minded person what I say is nothing more then crazy talk, but to a person that keeps an open mind, what I have to say makes perfect since. It is to the open minded being that I speak my words to, not those of closed minds.
As for chimps and apes, this is the teachings of evolution, isn't chimps and apes, herbivores. meaning they eat plants, yes sometimes they also eat bugs, however I have yet to find the human who eats bugs? and not cows and chickens etc. if we came from them then why do we eat the things we do? Besides, how many myths and legends are there about Were-chimps or were-apes? None that I know off. However their are millions of myths and legends about werewolves. and lets not forget dragons, their is entire race of people who hold dragons in high regard, but that is another topic not meant for this board.
As for werewolves. all long lasting Myths and legends have a basis in reality. or they would not last. and would eventually expire, grow old, then die out. I believe that werewolves are as real as anything else. and are a part of who we really are. I also believe that during the witch hunts, and the werewolf hunts talked about in history, that most of the people that had found the secret to change were killed. but not all. I also believe that the myths and the legends, and the movies all are a part of a huge plot by the Christians of that area to make us think that such things are not possible, that these things are nothing more thin a figment of our wildest imaginings...
This is what I believe. Regardless of what I believe however, What I guess really madders is what do you believe in. even if what you believe isn't the truth. this is all that madders in the end...
On one last note, the wolf is a family, or pack animal, yes they may not resemble us as well as the ape or the chimp in looks. however in their actions and their way of doing things they come the closest to us, more so then any other animal alive today. This in conjunction with history and all the myths and legends, lead me to believe that werewolves were real. and even to this day, still are. If we can find out their secret then I believe they can once again become more then just plain myth and legend. Working their way back into reality once more. The answer lies deep within us all, however it may well be harder to find for some then it is for others and some may find that they don't have what it takes to find it, or to be able to change. Even so, have you truly looked within yourself lately?
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If one looks hard enough one will find the answers, so don't look if you really don't wish to know, for the answers may end up being more then you can handle.
Also on a note of my posted reply at the top of this page. Yes it may very well be too complicated, However Isn't most everything these days? And even if that was an outdated observation on the happenings of a wolves pack. it does describe todays lifestyle very well I think. You say that a wolf pack is nothing more then a family, and your right. So where is the family in today's Standards? Most everyone is out for themselves. The fact is that if everyone were to think more like a wolf and less like a human this world would be much easier to live in. This brings me back to my prior thought, To embrace the wolf within us, so that we may be one with nature as a family. Instead of against it and family.
There is much to what I say, so much so that I find it hard to put it into the right words. Yes there will always be flaws, and people who disagree with what I am saying or how I am saying it. This I can understand and except.
Back to the main topic
I view the werewolf, as both an animal and a person. Yes their are differences between humans and wolves. But there are also many things that are the same... A werewolf should be both menacing and calm, just as the real wolves are. By this I mean that on the one hand, if a werewolf or it's family is in danger with no way out but to fight then by all means they should FIGHT! However if a werewolf is not in danger then they should be betrayed as calm, caring family-related beings. Also a werewolves looks has a purpose, their tail is their for balance, to help with agility. Their ears and nose are for locating food and avoiding danger. Their hair, acts as their clothes and helps them blend into their environment, and when it is cold if they are outside it will help keep them warm. Their claws, are for more then looks also, they help with traction when running and moving quick, avoiding counter attacks from their would be prey, and things like this. They are not a weapon meant to be used all the time. While this does sound like a great idea to do this, one must also take into account the cats claws. I can't recall how many times I have seen a cat get hung up. while clawing at something, either in self defense or even during simple play. Think about what would happen if they continued to slash even though caught in this manner. They would rip their claws clean off! In the case of werewolves, who are often betrayed as being able to slash through tendons, mussel, and even sometimes bone. with enough force to take a human head clean off. In reality this much force would rip their claws clean off, even if they are made of bone themselves this would break them. this is why I say that this is not a feasible use of a werewolves claws. To fight in a manner that also hurts the self. If the werewolf is any part human then they should fight with strategy, using the hand-like claws to grab, clutch, and twist, thus restraining their opponent, and then delivering the final blow with fangs to deliver a fatal strike. It is a fact, that every part of a werewolf has a profound purpose. Nothing is simply for looks.
As for chimps and apes, this is the teachings of evolution, isn't chimps and apes, herbivores. meaning they eat plants, yes sometimes they also eat bugs, however I have yet to find the human who eats bugs? and not cows and chickens etc. if we came from them then why do we eat the things we do? Besides, how many myths and legends are there about Were-chimps or were-apes? None that I know off. However their are millions of myths and legends about werewolves.
Chimps, as well as the other species I used as a reference, baboons, are the exact same thing humans are- omnivores. They eat plant matter and meat, plants are just easier to get so they make up a greater part of their diet. If they can catch a small and weak animal such as a monkey or baby antelope it’s snack time.
Also, plenty of people eat bugs. Western cultures such as Europe and America are really more of an exception than the rule when it comes to views on eating bugs.
As far as transformation legends, those are determined by our cultural backgrounds and the animals our ancestors were most familiar with. America, for example, has a heavy European influence, so the wolf will appear again and again in our stories. In Africa I would not be surprised if there are were-ape stories. Their ancestors did not have exposure to wolves, but they tell more or less the same stories with a different selection of animal species.
Number of stories told does not = increase in credibility of those stories, it just shows something about how people view the world and their place in it.
Leonca~ wrote:
Chimps, as well as the other species I used as a reference, baboons, are the exact same thing humans are- omnivores. They eat plant matter and meat, plants are just easier to get so they make up a greater part of their diet. If they can catch a small and weak animal such as a monkey or baby antelope it’s snack time.
Quite!
Chimps have even been known to exercise cannibalism.
Also, plenty of people eat bugs. Western cultures such as Europe and America are really more of an exception than the rule when it comes to views on eating bugs.
As far as transformation legends, those are determined by our cultural backgrounds and the animals our ancestors were most familiar with. America, for example, has a heavy European influence, so the wolf will appear again and again in our stories. In Africa I would not be surprised if there are were-ape stories. Their ancestors did not have exposure to wolves, but they tell more or less the same stories with a different selection of animal species.
Number of stories told does not = increase in credibility of those stories, it just shows something about how people view the world and their place in it.
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I believe there's a culture in either Eastern Asia or some part of Africa with a high regard for monkeys, complete with a god and a species of monkey in particular who are closely associated with said monkey-god and highly overpopulate local cities because the monkeys are too holy to have population control run on them or something.
Leonca~ wrote:
Chimps, as well as the other species I used as a reference, baboons, are the exact same thing humans are- omnivores. They eat plant matter and meat, plants are just easier to get so they make up a greater part of their diet. If they can catch a small and weak animal such as a monkey or baby antelope it’s snack time.
Quite!
Chimps have even been known to exercise cannibalism.
And baby eating.
Our babies.
"I hope some animal never bores a hole in my head and lays its eggs in my brain, because later you might think you're having a good idea but it's just eggs hatching."
-Jack Handey
Ok, so I am wrong, About the chimps,ETC.. Wouldn't be the first time I suppose
However What about the main topic Located below the Back to the main topic
What Is it you think about what I said there???
Do you agree with the following?
If yes, please state, why?
If no then please state, why?
And Please try to at least remain sort of on topic. This is my views so you are going to disagree with at least something I have sead, all I ask is if you disagree please In as much detail as posable try to explain, why? Either way your input is much valued Thanks...
Here is the:Back to the main topic
I view the werewolf, as both an animal and a person. Yes their are differences between humans and wolves. But there are also many things that are the same... A werewolf should be both menacing and calm, just as the real wolves are. By this I mean that on the one hand, if a werewolf or it's family is in danger with no way out but to fight then by all means they should FIGHT! However if a werewolf is not in danger then they should be betrayed as calm, caring family-related beings. Also a werewolves looks has a purpose, their tail is their for balance, to help with agility. Their ears and nose are for locating food and avoiding danger. Their hair, acts as their clothes and helps them blend into their environment, and when it is cold if they are outside it will help keep them warm. Their claws, are for more then looks also, they help with traction when running and moving quick, avoiding counter attacks from their would be prey, and things like this. They are not a weapon meant to be used all the time. While this does sound like a great idea to do this, one must also take into account the cats claws. I can't recall how many times I have seen a cat get hung up. while clawing at something, either in self defense or even during simple play. Think about what would happen if they continued to slash even though caught in this manner. They would rip their claws clean off! In the case of werewolves, who are often betrayed as being able to slash through tendons, mussel, and even sometimes bone. with enough force to take a human head clean off. In reality this much force would rip their claws clean off, even if they are made of bone themselves this would break them. this is why I say that this is not a feasible use of a werewolves claws. To fight in a manner that also hurts the self. If the werewolf is any part human then they should fight with strategy, using the hand-like claws to grab, clutch, and twist, thus restraining their opponent, and then delivering the final blow with fangs to deliver a fatal strike. It is a fact, that every part of a werewolf has a profound purpose. Nothing is simply for looks.
I think I read somewhere that in terms of DNA and such canines share 80% with humans. Not sure though, but if its true then thats pretty damn close if you ask me.
Scott Gardener wrote:
I'd be afraid to shift if I were to lose control. If I just looked fuggly, I'd simply be annoyed every full moon.
I think the whole “werewolves using claws as weapons” can make sense depending on what kind of design you are using. Many werewolf designs seem to be pretty similar to bears in appearance (bipedal abilities, hairy, extremely muscular, etc.). Bears use their claws quite efficiently to rip and tear, so a werewolf doing this would probably be acting more like a bear than a cat.
Leonca~ wrote:I think the whole “werewolves using claws as weapons” can make sense depending on what kind of design you are using. Many werewolf designs seem to be pretty similar to bears in appearance (bipedal abilities, hairy, extremely muscular, etc.). Bears use their claws quite efficiently to rip and tear, so a werewolf doing this would probably be acting more like a bear than a cat.
Ok I have to give you that one. That may very well be a much better animal to use. However that still isn't a Wolf/ Werewolf. That is acting more like a bear. Off topic:Not entirely a bad thought, can you imagine a were-bear for a movie? Back on topic:
At any rate anless one depicts the werewolf by using only wolves and humans as the basis then how can the werewolf be depicted as close to real as posable? I have only ever seen a human female slap when inraged or fighting. No offence ment ladies. I know that their are human males out there also who fight in this manner. However I haven't seen any as of yet and I don't care to either LMAO.
So why is the werewolf, depicted as fighting like a cat or even a bear, instead of like a Wolf?
Tell me about it! lol Nothing makes since now days...
The werewolves abilities are not what I think is amiss it's the way their depicted, and yes I also like the more wolfish depiction of the werewolf. But I also like their abilities. Just not the way their depicted using their claws as a primary weapon, Now if they were to only use their claws as a secondary, defenceive only, weapon then that would be much better, after all humans do use their hands, however this is only good for a werewolf that is calm and thinking about their next move. A human that has lost itself to his animal side and become an enraged wolf hybrid /Human would not in reality be thinking about what it's human side would be doing. As a result it would be acting almost entirely like the wolf that they had become, yes even as a werewolf. And yes by all means the werewolf should apear very strong and fearsome, however their has to be a way for this to be done without crossing them with other animals. Just plane Wolf/Human Hybrid (Werewolf). After all look at what the movies are capable of now days?
Leonca~ wrote:I think the whole “werewolves using claws as weapons” can make sense depending on what kind of design you are using. Many werewolf designs seem to be pretty similar to bears in appearance (bipedal abilities, hairy, extremely muscular, etc.). Bears use their claws quite efficiently to rip and tear, so a werewolf doing this would probably be acting more like a bear than a cat.
Ok I have to give you that one. That may very well be a much better animal to use. However that still isn't a Wolf/ Werewolf. That is acting more like a bear. Off topic:Not entirely a bad thought, can you imagine a were-bear for a movie? Back on topic:
At any rate anless one depicts the werewolf by using only wolves and humans as the basis then how can the werewolf be depicted as close to real as posable? I have only ever seen a human female slap when inraged or fighting. No offence ment ladies. I know that their are human males out there also who fight in this manner. However I haven't seen any as of yet and I don't care to either LMAO.
So why is the werewolf, depicted as fighting like a cat or even a bear, instead of like a Wolf?
Because they're also human, and humans use their hands.
And any human who has inch-long claws on his hands is not going to punch anyone unless he's trying to knock them cold rather than kill them. After all - the claws are going to make punching not too pleasant a thing to do (hard to curl your fingers up into a proper fist, and the claws will be poking your palm the whole time) and it's just natural to extrapolate "I have a sharp object instead of just my fists" -> "I kill my foe with the sharp object because it is faster and saves me time and reduces the chance of me being injured"
You have to remember, however, that unless the werewolf is an idiot of colossal proportions or if there's sharp things everywhere else, the claws do NOT restrict hand movement. Ergo, aikido or other grappling practitioners can incorporate claw techniques along with open-handed grappling.
Alternatively, you can just suggest a werewolf file their claws down to blunt stumps, and they can still be dangerous.
Very well You have me there, So how do you depict a werewolf Without crossing it with another animal though? So lets say that you have the werewolf slashing and clawing, the only manner of claws
that are strong enough to withstand this much use are those that resemble Tallinn's more then the wolves claws. see you have to take into account that a humans nails don't have the strength to slash and
cut, this action would take the nail clean off. they can scratch yes. and do some clawing however they break off when done this way with to much force, such as is depicted in almost all werewolf movies.
And the wolves claws are not made for this reason
their for When you cross the two. the resulting nails/ claws would be incompatible for such abuse. Even if say a wolves claws were strong enough to do such a thing wouldn't, In reality, the cross with a
humans nails cause them to be weakened drastically? So How would you depict This cross change between the two, making it realistic and still be able to use such a fighting style??
I think that is where trying for realism in a wolf/human hybrid can get a bit messy. If you think about the bone, muscle, and other anatomical structures of both species they don’t really match up that well. I tried this with a horse a while ago- drew something that was halfway between both species with human-like hands and feet (a study on bone structure comparisons). The result was not pretty. I think if you want to be realistic you could go one of two ways.
Mostly human hands, flexible and with small claws. The claws would only be slightly useful in fighting, but both humans and canines can scratch so it wouldn’t be completely harmless. I know someone who had a dog that they got rid of because it liked jumping up on kids and they were worried it would scratch a kid’s face or damage an eye. Imagine how scary it would be if someone used a fighting style where they tried to gouge their opponent’s eyes out.
Mostly wolf-like paws with larger claws. Might be able to do some of the same things with them, but the lack of flexibility would be limiting. I imagine claws would mostly be used to stun an opponent with a sudden painful blow rather than as a main killing weapon.
All the more reason why I like the fully transformed type. Better for focusing on a canine’s true weapons, the teeth.
Leonca~ wrote:I think that is where trying for realism in a wolf/human hybrid can get a bit messy. If you think about the bone, muscle, and other anatomical structures of both species they don’t really match up that well. I tried this with a horse a while ago- drew something that was halfway between both species with human-like hands and feet (a study on bone structure comparisons). The result was not pretty. I think if you want to be realistic you could go one of two ways.
Mostly human hands, flexible and with small claws. The claws would only be slightly useful in fighting, but both humans and canines can scratch so it wouldn’t be completely harmless. I know someone who had a dog that they got rid of because it liked jumping up on kids and they were worried it would scratch a kid’s face or damage an eye. Imagine how scary it would be if someone used a fighting style where they tried to gouge their opponent’s eyes out.
Mostly wolf-like paws with larger claws. Might be able to do some of the same things with them, but the lack of flexibility would be limiting. I imagine claws would mostly be used to stun an opponent with a sudden painful blow rather than as a main killing weapon.
All the more reason why I like the fully transformed type. Better for focusing on a canine’s true weapons, the teeth.
Finily some one who can see where i have been trying to talk about all this time. But still based on your ideas their should be a way to make a Cross between the two It would just require altering its fighting style some what. to make it Work.
It seems to be that the "best" werewolf is essentially 90% wolf and 10% human modifications, such as probably opposable thumbs, slightly more dexterous, and more intelligent.
Though, the fact of the matter is that the tool works, it is the application that causes the problem. A screwdriver isn't ideal for pounding in nails, but does this mean that the screwdriver is a bad tool? Bad for that particular application perhaps, but useful in plenty of other ways. Even if the werewolf did have weakened claws as a result of their human attributes, they would still be rather useful, though they wouldn't be ideal for slashing and tearing at enemies.
I have a feeling that I need to get around to consolidating some of the fluff I've written for my homebrew RPG, you might like some of it.
Wingman wrote:It seems to be that the "best" werewolf is essentially 90% wolf and 10% human modifications, such as probably opposable thumbs, slightly more dexterous, and more intelligent.
Though, the fact of the matter is that the tool works, it is the application that causes the problem. A screwdriver isn't ideal for pounding in nails, but does this mean that the screwdriver is a bad tool? Bad for that particular application perhaps, but useful in plenty of other ways. Even if the werewolf did have weakened claws as a result of their human attributes, they would still be rather useful, though they wouldn't be ideal for slashing and tearing at enemies.
I have a feeling that I need to get around to consolidating some of the fluff I've written for my homebrew RPG, you might like some of it.
Yes I compleatly agree, with what you said here. The tools (Werewolves claws) do have their uses. However as they are betrayed in most movies, their tools/ claws are not ideal for slashing and tearing at enemies. This is what i have been trying to say all along. Even though it makes for a movie, If one wants to make a more realistic Werewolf. one needs to also incorparate this into the making of that werewolf.
Werewolfdragon wrote:Very well You have me there, So how do you depict a werewolf Without crossing it with another animal though? So lets say that you have the werewolf slashing and clawing, the only manner of claws
that are strong enough to withstand this much use are those that resemble Tallinn's more then the wolves claws. see you have to take into account that a humans nails don't have the strength to slash and
cut, this action would take the nail clean off. they can scratch yes. and do some clawing however they break off when done this way with to much force, such as is depicted in almost all werewolf movies.
And the wolves claws are not made for this reason
their for When you cross the two. the resulting nails/ claws would be incompatible for such abuse. Even if say a wolves claws were strong enough to do such a thing wouldn't, In reality, the cross with a
humans nails cause them to be weakened drastically? So How would you depict This cross change between the two, making it realistic and still be able to use such a fighting style??
Strictly speaking, a straight up cross between the two doesn't work very well - humans and wolves are built entirely too different in many areas (like the skull - we have bigger, rounded brains, where wolves devote more skull space to their nasal passages for an awesome nose, etc. so fitting a human brain in a wolf shaped skull is going to be ....troublesome). Werewolves are also typically possessed of traits better than a wolf or human - like incredibly speed, strength and regenerative healing.
More talon-like claws tends to be part of the package. They're really the best way for a bipedal wolf to deal damage.
If they didn't work like that, well, I would imagine you'd see boxing werewolves or other silliness. Hands are really useful bludgeons and grabbing tools. Beating someone around with your knuckles can stun them - which works well towards the goal of, say, ripping their throat out with your fangs since if they're dazed they can't target your incredibly vulnerable throat.
Unless you're a quadrapedal lycanthrope, biting if going to be your absolute last option. It makes your neck and torso entirely too vulnerable and has an incredibly short range, so you're going to likely be using your hands - claws or no.
Aki wrote:More talon-like claws tends to be part of the package. They're really the best way for a bipedal wolf to deal damage.
If they didn't work like that, well, I would imagine you'd see boxing werewolves or other silliness. Hands are really useful bludgeons and grabbing tools. Beating someone around with your knuckles can stun them - which works well towards the goal of, say, ripping their throat out with your fangs since if they're dazed they can't target your incredibly vulnerable throat.
Unless you're a quadrapedal lycanthrope, biting if going to be your absolute last option. It makes your neck and torso entirely too vulnerable and has an incredibly short range, so you're going to likely be using your hands - claws or no.
I'll try to emphasize Aki's point here in terms of head vulnerability with yet another batch of half-assed drawings for another few worlds of "OUCH!!".
Last edited by JoshuaMadoc on Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I've never been attacked by a large canine before, but I was always under the impression that they lunge with their whole body, usually paws-first, trying to knock you down or make you more vulnerable before they bite. (Rather than E. Honda style face-first, as in Kitetsu's cartoon.)
I think if you want to be realistic you could go one of two ways.
