The Future of The Pack - IMPORTANT

[WolvenOne]

I can definitly understand the reasons behind this. However this isn't necceserilly a bad thing. An extra layer of independence should give this message board a life-span beyond the film. Or at least I would hope so.

[Guest]

You will always be The Pack Alpha to me Anthony Their would of been no Pack without you, so, thank you! I hope you still post a lot here(Know you cant as much because you will be making Freeborn) Good luck with filming and the rest of production!!! Remember to still come!

Hmm, three new alphas... Well, Figarou first popped up in my head. Their are a lot of well qualified wolves here. Terastas, Vuldari, Apokryltaros, and a bunch more.*thinks*

[Silverclaw]

Sorry! That was me above!

[outwarddoodles]

*Sniffle* We love you for this. (In a good sorta way.)

I find the pack amazing too. so calm and collected, and full of so many fans. With very witty ideas and responses. But are also great friends. I'm addicted. I've never heard of another forum for a movie. We may have a trend. I find it amazing how we GREW. How did the board get so big, so loved?

I hope to see a great future. You will see me in it.

Stephanie.

P.S. Me? I've been a werewolf fan since forever, particuly 3rd grade. Now at 13 I'm addicted....

[Bete]

Maybe since the top 5 posters are Figarou, Vuldari, Apokryltaros, Blade-of-the-Moon and Terastas (all have well over 300 posts and all have been on this site since the first two weeks when the first member posted), it seems that they would all know what is in the "best interest" of the site and know the goals, people, topics and etc. of this site most. If any of them are interested, they should probably be considered (it's pretty safe to say they are all die-hard werewolf fans). They also have the experience of this site. If they aren't interested, maybe the next 5 posters. As far as werewolf knowledge, I'm going to say, that if you surround yourself with intelligent people, you'll get the knowledge. I say that as there are some absolutely interesting people on this site, I have been very lucky to be able to see some of the projects they worked on, visit some of their websites and PM with them. As far as the art/design of the site, I think someone would have to be trained on that, because I can see many people having many different ideas on what the site should look like (and I know that there were screens designs for menus that someone here was already working on). Also, there are 23 people on the site with over 100 posts. I also think that if anyone is really interested, they should speak up and say so too.

[Guest]

I'm really thinking of a triad. Three folks, instead of a dictatorship, or maybe a cycling leadership program. I'm not entirely sure at the moment.

But I'll still be around, but I'll be a guest of YOUR site. Instead of you being guests of mine.

Well you know Ill still be here to keep an eye on things and make sure nothing gets out of control.

[akujiwolf]

whoops that was me above sorry.

[Kzinistzerg]

Well... i'd be interested, but I don't know how much I could do. I'd only want to be there if I could do something that was valuable. For the art of the site we could just keep it the way it is and perhaps add in a bit of werewolf art in the backround. (And maybe duckies in the backound! ) And for moderating, we have enough memberss here that are possibilities, and akujikiwolf is a good moderator. We won't need anymore untill we get big.

[Darkmoon]

*Hugs AB* Well i don't blame you in the slightest, and I really thank you for what you have done. Being part of this very friendly group has been wonderful, and I'm glad I could be part of it from the beginning (well, almost ) Anyway, it is fun to think that I (sorta?) was a part in helping form "the ultimate werewolf".



As to all the other Pack members I have come to know, it has been great working (or shall I say playing *lobs a duckie*) with ya'll and hopefull will continue to be in the future!

[Terastas]

Hmm... Well, here's the check list --

1. strong abilities in web design, and management.
2. strong political 'putting out fires, and making sure everyone's getting their thoughts in.
3. Strong intellectual. Background in understanding werewolf lore, legends, and the like.
4. Spokesperson abilities. Let's face it, freeborn is going to heavily hit the press with the pack story. Someone has to represent it, or at least be the 'front person'
5. Money management. This is a not-for profit, but it's still going to have to use paypal or the like, and manage the monies to get to wolf park, etc
6. Vision. It's the future.
7. Time. Let's face it. Someone who only gets on once a month, won't be able to keep up.
8. Integrity. ( I CANT STRESS THIS ENOUGH)

-- with the specifications I think all three beta werewolves would need (or at least should have by now what with all the discussions we've had) in bold. That would mean the pack needs:
1) A web designer.
2) A financial mannager.
3) And someone with the time and vocal capabilities to speak on the behalf of the other two.

I know I can't be trusted with finances, and I'll be very surprised if there isn't already a better web designer registered here. As for the representative part... Well, in all seriousness, I don't have any commitments that I would have to think twice about putting on hold or blowing off completely, so unless you guys have a serious problem about the pack being represented by a cat with an afro, I'll gladly put my name on the ballot for that position.

[Akugarou]

BUT ABOVE ALL ELSE. .... I'm a werewolf fan.

Amen, bro.

I don't remember how I found my way into The Pack, but what I do know that I'm very happy I did!

A werewolf forum, for fans ..and created by a fan (and moviemaker to boot! ). After lurking for a very short time, I knew I'd come home.

[WolfVanZandt]

Good move Anthony. The politicos have tasted blood lately and its a good idea to be safe. Anyway, as soon as the movie takes off, I'd imagine that you'll have your hands full.

The whole experiment is interesting and I'll be fascinated to know the results. Maybe we'll have a good Werewolf movie finally.

It's good to know that we'll see you around.

[SGrayWolf]

Well let me give you an example.

I have my own site, im showing off the site as this is what the fans want. When they look and find out that I own it. Suddenly the question arises. Since I'm touting it so strongly that the fans are what is important, how many of those fans are actually Fans? how many are just freinds of mine, or myself making lots of different posts as different nics. Now i KNOW its quite easy to prove with IP addys and such, but if I have to go and do that, then they've already got me in thier mind as someone that could be dishonest. Even if they THINK IT. Their disposition towards me is less than it would be if I can say, Hey I'm a member sure, but I'm not the administrator, I can't go in and change stuff around.

I understand and I honestly don't blame you ONE BIT for your decision(s) regarding all of it. Doesn't mean I have to like everything about it though.

Also, I'm not going AWAY. I'm still gonna be around. This werewolf film is only one of several that we have on the plates. Yes, Time IS also an issue. I have lots of things to manage with my own career, and other scripts.

BUT ABOVE ALL ELSE. .... I'm a werewolf fan.

and I will always be a pack member... I feel like sinatra (the chairman of the board) ..

Do what is important for this movie and for your career, I agree wholeheartedly. Good luck and good wishes to you and every member in your staff that has worked so hard for us (the fans) and I hope the best for you all. I'm definately glad that you'll still be around.

[Goldenwolf]

It seems to me what we need to be looking for is one person who knows a lot about werewolves, another person that's good with people and managing them, and then one that's awesome with web design and graphics. I don't think just looking at the people who post the most or speak the loudest to be the best measuring stick here. There are MANY people on this board who are maybey not so loud but are just as dedicated as Fig and the other high posters but who don't feel the need to post so much. Others who are awesome leaders, designers, and werewolf specialists.

I think what Anthony is looking for here is not to point fingers at other people, but rather to have those who WOULD and COULD be on this council to step forward and present themselves, as it were, to the Pack so we can from there decide who should be "in charge" of our little zoo ;)

[Darth Canis]

You will always be my alpha Anthony, but i agree with goldie, everyone has proven that they have something to offer that much is clear. If people feel they have the skills and the time they should nominate themselves and if they are too shy someone nominate them and they can accept or obstain. I too thought of fig when this topic was posted, and its not becuase of his post count its becuase of everything he has contributed i guess that is the same thing but well.... shrugs and he made me my darth canis picture yay.... lol but seriously. It should be a tier or double system so there can be checks and balances.

[Baphnedia]

Goldenwolf, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Another point I thought about is that it isn't about finding the 'best' web designer, the 'best' financial manager, and the best PR person, but to find three people who are good at those things.

If we were all to deliberate over who was better than whom, and that those that were the 'best' were qualified for the positions, eternity would pass before a decision was made, and there would only be three happy members at the end of the vote.

As far as I can tell, everyone's presented an intelligent appearance thusfar on this forum (one reason why I keep coming back, when I'm online) and for the most part, could all qualify.

We're looking for some volunteers. Or, we can all start giving excuses as to why we can't do it. As for myself, I've got prior committments (to the Army, to Music, and to my own website) and also as some crazy guy out there to help people save money and stuff. This isn't the place for me to talk about that though.... erg.

Anyhow, I'd also like to thank AB and the other members of this site for spreading the word, as this forum is (usually) the second highest referrer to Paradice Net. Right now, it's down in fifth for the month of April, somewhere behind Morons.org.

One last note, if AB or anyone has created banners for The Pack website (and this forum) please send them to me, as I'd like to rotate them on Paradice Net (free of charge and all that stuff). Also, for whoever takes the people interaction job on the forum, or anyone who's good with writing site descriptions, I'd like to get one for this forum, that reads better than:

"The fan forum for a were-wolf movie in development by Calypso-Blue Studios."

Granted, it's also out of date too, but I know that there's something better to be had than just that one sentence blurb.

[Silverclaw]

The ones I mentioned earlier and also ScottG and Shadowblaze could be good for consideration. Quieter people, raise your voices as well if youd like a chance! There are a lot of good people here

The things on that list I cant do is money management, and web design(sounds fun but I never learned). Though I'd like to put my name on the ballot as well. I have a lot of knowledge of werewolves. I dont have much of a life so I am on the computer a LOT So thats not a concern

[Stormdancer]

I will step up and nominate myself for one of the committee positions. I possess the skills and experience necessary for this job. I have been an admin of numerous forums, knowledgable on the subject of werewolves, and have experience being a manager and a spokesperson. Understanding the professionalism and dedication this opportunity calls for, I believe that I would be the right person for this.

[Vuldari]

It is sad that you feel the need to step down Anthony, but if "The Pack" is intended to grow beyond just the film FREEBORN, I can understand why it needs to happen.

...new leaders hunh? Well, I feel I need to say that I am most definately NOT a good candidate for that honor, and the fact that I have the Second most posts here is good evidence towards that. Let me explain...

I have no lack of enthusiasm for the genre of WereWolf fiction...that is not the problem. The problem is that I am unskilled, and not very dependable. Instead of doing the things people are depending on me to do, I spend much of my time goofing around playing videogames and posting silly messages and pictures on internet forums like this one...

Post count should have no relevance on choosing who should represent us and keep the board running smoothly. We should just make sure that everyone knows the positions are open, see who volunteers, and then chose from them who would most likely be the most dependable in that position...not neccesarily the BEST. The Best Web-Designer in the Pack probobly is too busy with other projects to devote as much time as is needed to the Website.

I am reluctant to even accept being given any extra privilages/ responsabilities, (such as being able to delete others posts, lock out troublesome flamers, close threads, etc.) becasue of my highly compulsive personality. I'm afraid that the moment I accept the resposibility to moderate a portion of the website, I will find a new "obsession" and abandon the Pack for other interests.

"..OOhhhhh...Episode III! ...must...collect...all...model...starships..." *Takes off runnig towards nearest toy retailer leaving a cloud of dust in his wake, possibly never to return to The Pack again...*

Werwolves are only part of one of my THREE big obsessions;
*Videogames* (...all of them, but mostly NINTENDO)
*Shapeshifters* (...including werewolves)
*Star Wars* (..the original trilogy mostly)
...plus*Anime* is quickly becoming the fourth. (Naruto, Cowboy Bebop, DBZ, Tenchi Muyo, Wolfs Rain, Full Metal Alchamist, ...and MORE.)

...so, yeah... #2 most talkative does not mean I know more. It just means I don't know when to shut up sometimes.

[Vilkacis]

Well, guys and gals. I can't say enough about what you folks have done for interest in film in general. The story of the pack is spreading into the industry beyond the press. Other production companies are starting to take notice now and we might have really started a trend.

As much as it thrills me. It also saddnens me to say that it is now politically incorrect for me to be running this forum.

Politics. Bleh

But I understand your reasoning.

It started as mine sure, but it now belongs to you. I need to be taking my place as one of those outside filmmakers that gets your advice. It is important that this site be heard not just by me, but by others in the industry.

Today, Freeborn; tomorrow, the world!

MUAHAHAHAHAH!

And having myself placed as the administrator of these boards, is the film industries equilelant of 'insider trading'. I will make a new nic for myself, and take my place among the masses that are sure to follow as this film grows. I would love to say that this wouldn't be the case, but it has already started as I go into negotiations with major players. I will of course post a comment or two from time to time as the director, and answer questions.

There is so much that I want for this place, so much that I dreamed of. Yet the potential of this community has filled my heart with so much joy I can hardly stand it.

There will be things that you guy's come up with that I'm sure will shock me in the future, and make me proud. (chuckle) I sound like a father sending his kid off to college. (EGO STROKE)

So here is the status of things regarding the pack. I will keep in control until.

1. ThePack Website is set up. (expediting the process)
2. All templates for cards and pack necklaces are made.
3. The corporate structure of the not-for-profit organization is set up. So that The Pack can sell items, of whatever kind, and use the profit to their discression, prferably wolf park.

I will do these things, but in the background. Which means, Yes, I will continue to pay for the webspace to host the pack site. (it's the very least I can do), and I will give all templtes for member cards, and raw necklaces to the appropriate parties.

Are the member cards and necklaces going to be an ongoing thing, then?

appropriate parties you say? Yes, I fell a legacy is passing, To Whom do I pass the torch to? My suggestion is to suggest a three party committee. All three having an equal vote. (a three legged stool will always stand without wobbling). I have been watching all of you, and you have ALL been courtious, considerate, and constructive. (something I find rarely on other forums). I know that whoever takes over from me will make sure the pack stays what it was always meant to be. A Pack.

So, that being said. Here are some criteria that I think are needed for the 'pack council',
1. strong abilities in web design, and management.
2. strong political 'putting out fires, and making sure everyone's getting their thoughts in.
3. Strong intellectual. Background in understanding werewolf lore, legends, and the like.
4. Spokesperson abilities. Let's face it, freeborn is going to heavily hit the press with the pack story. Someone has to represent it, or at least be the 'front person'
5. Money management. This is a not-for profit, but it's still going to have to use paypal or the like, and manage the monies to get to wolf park, etc
6. Vision. It's the future.
7. Time. Let's face it. Someone who only gets on once a month, won't be able to keep up.
8. Integrity. ( I CANT STRESS THIS ENOUGH)

I will of course be around in the shadows once all this goes up, and am open to giving any thoughts you (the future council) might like to hear from me. So, everyone please feel free to comment, that will go on for one week from today. After that week, if we have a good structure. I will open nominations, talk about yoruself,

I do have strong web development skills. I have experience with HTML, Javascript, PHP, ASP, VBScript, MySQL, MS Access, etc... And, I am confident in my ability to learn new and existing technologies in a short period of time. I'm a programmer--all this stuff is right up my alley. It might be best if someone else does the graphics, though.

Anyway, while I'm not interested in the position (and I doubt I would be chosen even if I were) I do offer up my web-development skills to help The Pack (just ask), but I can't always guarantee that I will have the time.

talk about your friends, etc.

I'll just go over the people that have been mentioned so far (in order of mention, unless I missed someone).

Figarou:
Many people have mentioned Figarou, but my own feelings on the matter are mixed. On one hand, I think Figarou is well-qualified for the position and we are guaranteed that he will be dedicated to The Pack. But on the other hand, I would never wish such a position on someone unless they wanted it. Also, authority inevitably changes relationships. People give more weight to an opinion offered by someone in a position of respect. I only mention this because I seem to remember (forgive me if I'm wrong) Figarou saying at one point that he doesn't want to be treated differently than any other member. I, for one, would prefer to be in a position where I can speak freely without having the burden of considering how others are going to take it.

Ultimately, if I see that Figarou wants the position, I will back him 100%.

(And I think he's completely wrong when he says he has no skills of any kind.)

Reilune:
I mean no offense at all when I say this: I think the web-design position should probably be filled by someone with more than a limited knowledge of HTML and computer access that is dependent on someone else.

Vuldari:
Well, I had stuff written here, but Vuldari posted right in the middle of me writing it. So.... that cleared things right up.

Apokryltaros:
Doesn't seem interested in the position, from what I've seen. I'd revise my opinion if I saw evidence to the contrary.

Blade-of-the-Moon:
I can't say as I've been around long enough to make a decision about Blade-of-the-Moon. I can't for the likes of me put a personality to the name. I might support him if he showed an interest.

Terastas:
I fully support Terastas. He has shown an interest in the position and has proven (to me, at least) to be an intelligent and well-reasoned individual. His long-term commitment thus far shows that he has the necessary dedication. But we should probably listen when he says to keep him away from money.


Scott Gardener:
Shadowblaze:
If these two show any kind of interest, I would give them fair consideration.

Stormdancer:
I know nothing about him, but he sounds confident.

THAT will go on for one week. At that time, I will choose 6-12 people that I think are worthy candidates (Hey, its my last hurrah as commander, I earned it). And then voting, (no polls) I don't want folks voting multiple times. If you wish to email your vote to me, or pmail it, that will work fine.

So, What do you think?

What sort of voting system are you planning on?

When we vote, will we be choosing the three that we think would make the best council? Or will we separate it into three positions with given responsibilities, and we would vote separately for each position (all at once)? Or, perhaps, hold a vote for one position, and then, once that position has been decided, hold the second, then the third...? Something else?

The one method that I would try to discourage would be having everyone choose just one person to vote for and having the selection be based on the three with the most votes. First of all, it's difficult to make just one choice, and secondly, the results would be somewhat skewed (i.e. Let's say most people vote for personA, but believe personB to be nearly as good, but they don't like personC at all. However, a minority doesn't like personA or personB, so they vote for personC. Well, since personA "took" all of personB's votes, personA and personC will be selected, even though the majority of people would liked to have seen personA and personB instead.). That's not to say that something like that would really happen, but it seems like a possibility, at least.

Just some things to consider.

-- Vilkacis

[Figarou]

It seems to me what we need to be looking for is one person who knows a lot about werewolves, another person that's good with people and managing them, and then one that's awesome with web design and graphics.

Only one person with knowledge of werewolves? Oh sure. Just have that person answer every question while the rest of us sit back and watch.

I don't think just looking at the people who post the most or speak the loudest to be the best measuring stick here. There are MANY people on this board who are maybey not so loud but are just as dedicated as Fig and the other high posters but who don't feel the need to post so much. Others who are awesome leaders, designers, and werewolf specialists.

Hey, I wasn't expecting this to happen and I may not even get to be a Pack leader. I didn't jump up and say, "I'll do it! I can be leader!!" I'm surprised my name was mentioned. Sure, I'm dedicated to the Pack. I voiced my opinion, made some suggestions, and did a little goofing around. Like I said, its up to the Pack. I'm just a truck driver who happens to be a highly dedicated werewolf fan. As for those "awesome leaders, designers, and werewolf specialists," we all are!! I see everyone here as equal!!

I think what Anthony is looking for here is not to point fingers at other people, but rather to have those who WOULD and COULD be on this council to step forward and present themselves, as it were, to the Pack so we can from there decide who should be "in charge" of our little zoo ;)

Hey, if I WOULD, then I COULD. If I COULD, then I WOULD. I already mentioned I don't have web design skills. Being a Moderator doesn't take any skills. All you need is to check up on the forum and make sure its running smoothly. I know you have several forums yourself. Do you think you can run them all including this one?

The Pack is a melting pot of werewolf fans. You have your Therians, Furries, ETC. It wouldn't be fair if one group takes over this place.

[Figarou]

Figarou:
Many people have mentioned Figarou, but my own feelings on the matter are mixed. On one hand, I think Figarou is well-qualified for the position and we are guaranteed that he will be dedicated to The Pack. But on the other hand, I would never wish such a position on someone unless they wanted it. Also, authority inevitably changes relationships. People give more weight to an opinion offered by someone in a position of respect. I only mention this because I seem to remember (forgive me if I'm wrong) Figarou saying at one point that he doesn't want to be treated differently than any other member. I, for one, would prefer to be in a position where I can speak freely without having the burden of considering how others are going to take it.

Ultimately, if I see that Figarou wants the position, I will back him 100%.

(And I think he's completely wrong when he says he has no skills of any kind.)

Its true. I don't want to be treated differently. I'm just like any other person here. All I want is to be treated as a team member. And as a team, things can get done quickly and properly.

I show respect by not over powering anybody. I don't say...."I'm the best artist here." Or "My knowledge of werewolves exceeds yours." Or "My post count is higher." We are here to provide what we know about the werewolf to whoever needs the information. I said it once and I'll say it again. We are all equal!! I think we all can be "in charge."

(And I think he's completely wrong when he says he has no skills of any kind.)

Well, I'm a truck driver. I'm very skilled at that.

[Baphnedia]

Perhaps (unless I'm missing something here), we can for the most part take care of ourselves here on the forum. We're all intelligent (to some degree) and with the exception of the occasional spam, have done rather well over the last six months (give or take).

When it comes to forum moderation, Akujiwolf mentioned that he is still a moderator, and he can probably take care of anything forum-related. As for the other 'positions', everyone's getting a bit tied up over responsibilities among other things.

In a similar situation, when my Shire in WA decided for the fourth time in five years to become a Duchy (not read 'duckie'), we had members nearly out for blood. What was decided in the end was that we would remain the oldest Shire in the SCA for the simple fact that it was more fun that way.

Perhaps we should follow suit here. The positions that are mentioned are areas of responsibilities. (correct me if I'm wrong) There is no power to be held, just work. The webmaster will be dealing with site issues/upgrades, etc. The PR person will always be finding new members, and helping us recruit new Pack members, and helping us get along (I suppose), and the Other Guy (I hate my memory right now - just ran six miles), will do what he does.

The questions of who does what and when will have to be answered sooner or later, as well as the questions of who will take over one of the positions when someone leaves, or is just incapacitated.

The positions (if I understand it correctly) are volunteer-based. The vote is to help ensure we put the right people in the job. I don't know or have an opinion yet if we need a whole bunch of red tape (beaurocracy) or not.

I'll not post any opinions of who I think should get it until the vote. This is not a popularity contest. Also, I'll not vote for anyone who doesn't want it. I'll try to remember to contact candidtates by PM before I cast my vote, to ask them at that time if they want the job. If they don't, I'll continue down the list. If I fail to find three willing candidiates, I'll still vote for three, willing or unwilling, but I'd rather vote for the willing if possible.

As far as myself, I'd love to help out every now and then, but a permanent position is not something I can take on, as I am prone to disappearing for months/years at a time (Iraq/etc).

Any thoughts?

[Figarou]

When it comes to forum moderation, Akujiwolf mentioned that he is still a moderator, and he can probably take care of anything forum-related. As for the other 'positions', everyone's getting a bit tied up over responsibilities among other things.

I see nothing wrong with that. Akujiwolf is already a moderator. We havn't had any major problems with Pack members.

Perhaps we should follow suit here. The positions that are mentioned are areas of responsibilities. (correct me if I'm wrong) There is no power to be held, just work.

Thats something I don't need. More work. I come home tired from driving all night. I get home, turn on the PC and see what kind of posts has been placed. That alone takes up most of my time before going to bed.

[ABrownrigg]

Ahhhhh, what interesting opinions. And I sense the first itches of claw pointing, and defense.

Fig, and Goldie.

I love em both... some fur is white, some is brown with white spots, and some is brown with black blazes. Quite frankly, its not about being an expert, OR equality, or maybe it's both. At least this is my opinion.

Being a leader is about being a master of viewpoint. Something that I far lack in. But, I try. Everyone has thier own viewpoints, and no one would post them if they thought they were wrong, or being inappropriate. Everyon does what they think is the right thing to do. for whatever reason, joy, greed, depression, friendship, anything. I think both goldie and fig both have very good viewpoints, and are usable in varied ways on the site. Having someone here all hours helps a lot when just needing to respond, even if the response is..... we'll get back to you. I lack in that ability from time to time.

As far as werewolf experts. I'm not sure If I've ever met a werewolf expert. I have met those that have spent years dedicating themselves to study. which is to be admired.

While on one paw, you might think "well, those that lead should be those that have 'paid their dues' as it were, or those that have the most knowledge"...

and at the same time, on the other paw,finding someone who has that knowledge and has 'earned' the right to be an expert, that is also willing to let those less knowledable than themselves expound on new things, even if they disagree... is not as common.

In my experience the best leaders are those that know when to keep their mouths shut, or know when to tickle the intelects of those that have not the years of study they do, without saying 'Well, I've got more study than you, so I"m an expert".

So in conclusion. I think a leader is both waht fig and goldie have both said. (ain't that political) Someone who has a good deal of study wisdom, and experience, but is willing to keep it hidden from everyone else enough to be considered 'just like everyone else', and occasionally pat someone else on the back even when they came up with something you thougth of years ago.

I'm a little under the weather right now so I migth not be thinking clearly. But hey, Dammnit, I'm just a country doctor jam..er, Jim.


Whats that kenny rodgers song? hmmm hmm you got to know when to hold em.. know when to fold em... know when to walk away, know when to run.... dunm de dumn dumn... you never count your money.. when you're sitttn at the table.... there'l be time enough for countin.. when the dealins.. doneeeeee..... whooo hoooooo..

oops, time for my meds.

sincerely,

Jane Austin