Server downtime

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Server downtime

Post by takyoji »

As some may have noticed, the forum was completely inaccessible for about 5-6 hours today. This was due to the server that hosts The Packs Den (amongst many other websites, such as those owned by other people as well; thus "shared hosting") being dysfunctional and most likely taken down for repair. The support staff of the hosting provider weren't even informed on the cause of the dysfunction from the server administration department (at that point in time of communication). The downtime was very likely not due to anything with this forum, how people are using it, or anything else that may be of abnormality.

So to go even further more technical into details, this website is ran on a form of hosting called "shared hosting" of which entails:
  • Inexpensive web hosting. Currently $8.95/month; paid by Anthony Brownrigg on a yearly-basis ($107.40/year) out of his pocket
  • The website is hosted on a server with 100s to 1000s of other websites
  • Very unpredictable stability, if a couple websites are a resource hog one day, it renders other websites slow or inaccessible
  • Due to it's model, you have limited control over the server, since everyone else shares it; thus it's configured to be general, rather than specifically configured and optimized to how a specific website operates
  • Massive amount of storage available (on a shared basis)
  • Usually geared towards basic websites where downtime isn't an issue and where the needs are basic (personal website, small informational business website, etc)
  • For getting something fixed, you need to have the hosting provider's server administrators to fix it for you; since they're the only people that have control of the server.
Some of the negative factors expressed above are certainly what occur here on occasion; and also potentially limiting factors to expansion of this website among other things. What is desired is to have something called a dedicated server or otherwise a VPS/VDS (virtual dedicated server) which entails:
  • Entire control over the server, allowing it to be modified or adjusted in any [virtual] way.
  • Stable; since the server is basically all to yourself, thus it won't go inaccessible because of someone else's website.
  • Not as much storage as shared hosting; but certainly sufficient. Like 40GB at minimum.
  • Not as inexpensive as shared hosting
Skip to here if you can't bare the technobabble
Overall, moving to a better server at some point would be a good consideration, and would require appropriate funding. Generally the price range being looked at is from $30/month ($360/year) to $80/month ($960/year). Of which does sound like a whole lot, but assuming like 20 people contribute $25 per year, that would total to $500, which would be at the middle of the price range I threw out. Some considerations that have been discussed is that the primary source would be on a donation basis, and then additionally retail (like if we started merchandising a little) and perhaps non-obtrusive static advertisement (where we'd maintain what's shown, it wouldn't be delegated to a different company to control ads).

So any thoughts, advice, or opinions on the topic?
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Re: Server downtime

Post by wolfward »

The servers loading times have also been effected as I can tell. I've been having some loading difficulties and posting has also been a problem, I don't know how long this is going to last, but I hope that it improves soon.

I would like to be involved with getting our own server if these problems are a reoccurring issue, but even through either of these methods (Donation or retail) I have some questions about it;
Firstly, who would organize it and who would be in charge of the finances?
Secondly, what could I do in the aspect of funding?
And lastly, what would we be retailing, and how would I be able to help with this?

I just don't want to be on a buggy server all the time, and I'm sure I speak for a lot of people when I say, "I can't live like this!". So anymore info concerning the time the server will still be slow or when any more of these downtimes occur, would be great, thanks.
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I guess that no one else believes. :(

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Re: Server downtime

Post by takyoji »

What needs to be done is:
  • Someone to be appointed as the "owner" of the new server; of whom would handle the money and do the payments.
  • The person would need to open an account on some donation-based payment system
  • Then people would donate, any surplus would be held for next year's payment.
  • The website gets migrated to the new server; which takes a couple hours. But it takes about a few minutes to 24 hours for people's computers being able to notice that the website moved (thus would be inaccessible for them for that time period; this is because of caching)
Merchandising/retail would just be another factor down the road for getting a little more money throughout a year, but not considered the absolute solution or anything (especially considering there's obviously nothing to sell currently).
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Re: Server downtime

Post by outwarddoodles »

I'm rather split on this issue. I'll first state that I will absolutely support transferring our forums to a dedicated server if you, and everyone else, honestly believes that it's absolutely necessary/desirable for The PACK.

But, I personally don't think that the very few short, unexpected down times we experience here are enough to warrant transferring the forums unto an entirely new, and greatly more expensive, system. The lost 6 hours yesterday isn't worth +$200 a year (300, if AB does not donate his usual annual amount), plus the general hassle and frustration involved with finding out how to run the dedicated server, AND the constant uncertainty as to whether or not The PACK will be capable of funding the server for an indefinite amount of time.

I'm not saying that The PACK can't fund itself independently, or shouldn't attempt to accomplish any means that would benefit it in anyway, but I've been perfectly fine with how The PACK forums have functioned for the duration I've been here, shared hosting and all; To me, it's like fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

This is not to say that I'm opposed to this idea. In fact, transferring to a dedicated server is definitely the direction that I would like to see The PACK moving. I assume it would greatly accelerate the loading times and enhance our lovely admin's abilities to improve the site. Maybe we'll even get the chance to (re-)introduce some fantastic features such as the gallery system. It's just that transfering is a Big Deal, and The PACK hasn't fared too well in regards to community projects in the past, if I recall correctly...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I love the way The PACK is now, and I have no issues with the shared server. BUT, if everyone honestly thinks that The PACK can handle a dedicated server, then I have paypal and I'm willing to contribute. (25 bucks is NOTHING for my Pack! Besides, I can always draw for donators, too. : ) )
:D

(Sorry Takky if saying that I'm fine with the shared server system makes me sound complacent. I know that because I don't handle the technical issues like yourself that it's likely a lot easier for me to write off these complications than it is for you, which consumes a substaintial amount of your time and energy. It's just less personal to me.)
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Re: Server downtime

Post by takyoji »

outwarddoodles wrote:But, I personally don't think that the very few short, unexpected down times we experience here are enough to warrant transferring the forums unto an entirely new, and greatly more expensive, system.
There's also a couple factors other factors:
  • There were malware infections (specifically backdoors) throughout various directories of The Packs Den (but no files of the forum were altered) and it was determined to have been done through an infected neighbor website (on the shared server), or perhaps even compromise of the entire server itself. This is typically possible due poor configuration of the server.
  • Cleared all malicious files that could be removed, and locked down what couldn't be deleted (so it basically can't ever run). Contacted the support staff about the issue, especially pointing out that they should have deleted (the exact folder in fact), request was put in by the support steam, nothing was done. I believe I also tried again as well to no avail.
  • For the past 3 times I've contacted the support staff about the recent +6 hour-long downtime and the instability, they just say they're unsure or can't say anything about why the server is going to hell. Requested to be emailed on updates about the issue (and they had my email address, and said I would be emailed) and never received anything yet.
outwarddoodles wrote:plus the general hassle and frustration involved with finding out how to run the dedicated server
cPanel/Plesk can be used as well (which is what we already use right now) or basically anything else. I already maintain a dedicated server for Aqua Eden, and assist with the Paradice.net virtual dedicated server (which Lupin and Baphnedia run). A Linux server pretty updates itself and all it's components.
outwarddoodles wrote:the constant uncertainty as to whether or not The PACK will be capable of funding the server for an indefinite amount of time.
There's 365 days in year, which is certainly quite a bit of time to gradually gain sufficient donations. I could pay for pretty much all the hosting upfront right now (for a year-long plan) if I wanted, but would rather have the funding provided by a couple other people as well than just me alone. Also, there's nothing that's holding back from going to cheaper hosting if funding is thin.
outwarddoodles wrote:Maybe we'll even get the chance to (re-)introduce some fantastic features such as the gallery system.
Gallery system along with functionality for writing as well, book/movie reviews, wiki, and perhaps other services as well.
outwarddoodles wrote:It's just that transferring is a Big Deal, and The PACK hasn't fared too well in regards to community projects in the past, if I recall correctly...
The forum has actually been moved before, in fact, that's when I took an administrative position and had done such. All it takes is backing up the files and database, then moving it to the other server, and importing the database file. The database is currently 43MB (compressed), and the total amount of files on the server is about 130MB (attachments and avatars). I could pretty much host The Packs Den from my computer since I have a full backup of the database (which I took yesterday), and the files (but of course, I obviously don't have a sufficient connection for hosting a reasonably big website).
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Re: Server downtime

Post by outwarddoodles »

I'm really beginning to retract my previous grievances. The forums have been loading as an excruciatingly slow pace for me today. And is NOT an acceptable amount of lag by any means. I can only assume it's related to the server, because my internet connection is fine. > : (
For the past 3 times I've contacted the support staff about the recent +6 hour-long downtime and the instability, they just say they're unsure or can't say anything about why the server is going to hell. Requested to be emailed on updates about the issue (and they had my email address, and said I would be emailed) and never received anything yet.
Something makes me believe that costumer service through any server plan would suck.

Or are you implying that with a dedicated server, support staff interaction/dependency/interference would be minimal?
Also, there's nothing that's holding back from going to cheaper hosting if funding is thin.
A 'cheaper hosting' is still more expensive than $0/per year on behalf of the Pack members.

Also, I'm sort of afraid that payment for hosting will fall into the hands of mere few.
Gallery system along with functionality for writing as well, book/movie reviews, wiki, and perhaps other services as well.
YAY!



But anyhow, let's see how many other members are interested. Like I said, if you think it will work, I WILL support.
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Re: Server downtime

Post by takyoji »

outwarddoodles wrote:I'm really beginning to retract my previous grievances. The forums have been loading as an excruciatingly slow pace for me today. And is NOT an acceptable amount of lag by any means. I can only assume it's related to the server, because my internet connection is fine. > : (
Celestialwolf also just pointed out to me that a reverse IP test showing that there's 2,211 other websites (domains, specifically) being hosted on the same server as The Packs Den is on.
outwarddoodles wrote:Something makes me believe that costumer service through any server plan would suck. Or are you implying that with a dedicated server, support staff interaction/dependency/interference would be minimal?
With a VPS/VDS or dedicated server, we wouldn't even need customer service, since they're doing tasks for us that we're not privileged to do on the server. Also, their customer service just defer the issues to the people supposedly of "proper knowledge" through a form of a ticket system most likely.
outwarddoodles wrote:A 'cheaper hosting' is still more expensive than $0/per year on behalf of the Pack members.
I don't mean choosing a cheaper option to move to, I mean choosing a cheap option again to move BACK TO from a VDS/VPS or dedicated server if income is thin.
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Grayheart »

Well, given the fact that the loading time of The Pack in the last few days is - like outwarddoddles already mentioned - pretty slow and my (very limited) experience with sites on shared hosting basis tells me that the site will suffer a great deal more in the future, I would opt for the move to a dedicated server for The Pack.

Why do I think the site will suffer more in the future? Because the more sites will be hosted on our current server, the more problems will emerge. I experienced this quite a few times with private forums I run with friends for purposes of story writing and it resulted in a lot of annoyance (and we were just two or three persons to deal with this issue).

Another reason to opt for a dedicated server is the fact that The Pack will become bigger with the time - especially if the realisation of Freeborn will be one day come true, as it seems to be pretty much a possibility right now.

As for funding - I know that's a point where the funny talking stops for most people - I'm willing to donate for The Pack, 'cause I think it's a great place for a lot of different reasons. One of them being that we have a respectful tone with each other (well, most of time) and another one is that I've never experienced a site where people could discuss in such an open manner with each other about almost everything. To me this is a place of a strong community and careful scholarship. We should try hard to keep this place as enjoying as we can - and server problems are a big thorn in the palm!
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Sevena »

heres a thought.has anyone ever joined a private club or bar? I used to have a membership at the local VFW, the membership fee was $6.00 a year.Im not suggesting that The Pack become a private site (members only) but its a thought,it would take care of the whole money part, or, there could be a private part of the site where contributing members only are allowed.Kind of a pack inside of a pack.again this is just a thought. :)
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Re: Server downtime

Post by takyoji »

Sevena wrote:heres a thought.has anyone ever joined a private club or bar? I used to have a membership at the local VFW, the membership fee was $6.00 a year.Im not suggesting that The Pack become a private site (members only) but its a thought,it would take care of the whole money part, or, there could be a private part of the site where contributing members only are allowed.Kind of a pack inside of a pack.again this is just a thought. :)
I suggested the idea (previously), but not as a membership fee; more specifically a "subscription" model like deviantART has, to have even more features available to those that pay for an inexpensive subscription, although it wasn't really supported as an idea at all.
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Sevena »

its a great idea actually.i dont doubt that there will be a few concerns to follow should the entire pack view the idea and comment on it.one being ego's,no needs another pack member claiming to be righteous because they help pay for the pack.some might not be able to give and get upset if they have been here awhile and feel they also deserve some extras even if they dont pay.some may also view it as separating/dividing the pack.those are just a few that come to mind.all in all its a good idea though.it would make it possible for the pack to run on a better/higher quality server,it would still leave the pack open to new comers and give a little something extra to those who help pay.if at the start a pack member can not help with the finances , they could help at a later time and gain those extras.maybe you could run a poll, get feed back from the pack, i would just make sure to clear up any concerns you may see coming,and sort of spell things out( if you get what i mean) so that every one properly grasps the concept and can see the good that would come from it.not to imply that there are any dodo brains here but ive seen quite a few responses to post where its obvious they didnt read the entire post before they left a comment.
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Shadow Wulf »

I personally am against this subscription idea. The problems that you mentioned are exactly what I am concerned about. If a member really likes the pack then they will donate what little money they can to support the site, not just have them pay and then they want something in return. And on top of that I don't see what we can give a paying member (What simple enhancements at X cost?). This also won't be fare for senior members that are unable to pay, they should all get special privileges if that is the case. And where should we really draw the line on what makes a senior member? Some members might not like it that they been here for a year or two and don't qualify. I say no to this, if someone is gonna donate then it would be nice if they donate out of their own good will. But if you are gonna go ahead with this then I want it to be outside of the forums, maybe the ability to own your own Pack Art Gallery. But then what should be the cost? It should be very little and at a annual subscription.

$300/year should be easy enough to cover and split the cost for members that work, do consistent commissions, and even get monthly income from the government (for whatever reason). I really want all of us to have equal privileges. I am personally in for the unbobstructive advertisements (like pack member artists or their websites), donations, or some sort of retail. I just want that ALL the pack members get the experience that they deserve for being here.
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Howlitzer »

I personally would love to see this forum expand beyond what it currently is, and moving to a new host could help gain momentum with that.

However, I am very, very much against what having a "benefactors only" section of the forum would mean. Right now the only real division between groups of people in the forums is seniority. Certain people have been here longer, certain people have contributed more...not always in that order, but the generalization remains.... and as such they are rightfully viewed with an earned amount of respect apart from newer members who have not yet made their place.

Taking donations to pay for a new, better host, I am not opposed to. Rewarding people who donate, I am not opposed to.

Having that reward be something so exclusive as a part of the forum or website that normal members cannot access...or "special" privileges apart from all other members...is only asking for trouble. There are undoubtedly brand new members who could afford to donate immediately and consistently. There are also very prevalent members of this forum who cannot afford to do this. Anybody in college, as I am in now, or out in the world trying to find a job in the present economy, very possibly would not be able to consistently afford subscriptions or donations.

Adding purchased exclusivity to the forum in this way would only be asking for an undesirable schism in the community. If money is raised through subscriptions, those people should be rewarded with something, but it should be done so in a way that will not encourage the formation of a subcommunity.
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Vagrant »

I haven't posted in a while but I was nosed toward this and I thought I'd offer my two pence.

Donations

This is a fantastic idea!

Merchandising

This I find questionable, because it means that the admins/mods would probably have to start acting as support, and it might lead to unsatisfactory resolutions which would reflect badly on the Pack. That can happen wherever money is concerned.

Do we really want that baggage? Is it worth having control over the s erver? I personally think that this could end up being a disaster unless it's handled very, very carefully.

It could work, offering stuff like Pack t-shirts and mugs, providing we didn't overstep the boundaries and become too ambitious, and always made sure we used a reputable merchandise provider. But we shouldn't make it a focus.

Subscribers

If it's hush-hush and it silently opens up new features without any kind of display that a person is a "Senior Member", then that might work providing the costs aren't too great. But if we display it on the forums, a la deviantART, then that could be very, very dangerous to our community as a whole.

My primary concern is that the Pack might not be ready for it. Could you imagine the responsibility. I'll explain a scenario that comes to mind: You have two paying members in a squabble with one non-paying member, their status clearly emblazoned upon the site. If moderation had to be involved, then how would that look for us?

If the non-paying member ends up being banned, there would doubtlessly be accusations of corruption, and this might lead to the moderators distancing themselves from the community and taking a more workmanlike approach to moderation. Do we really want that? Would moderators leave if that becomes the case? Can we justify any worth against that kind of strife?

Once a precedent had been set, this could begin to institute a sort of microcosm of a class system, where non-paying members are leery of paying members because of the potentially corrupt leaders who'd want to keep their paying members on board to keep the forums alive.

The thought of all this makes my skin crawl.

It has the workings of undoing everything that this community has built upon, so this is why I think that having a displayed subscriber system would be a horrible idea.

Conclusion.

I think having money involved in the Pack as an investment which isn't a donation would inevitably lead to scenarios which would look bad for us. Careful merchandising can work, but don't overdo it, and donations are great and we should do that, but please, please don't institute a subscription system. And if you do, for the love of all that's good, don't ever display whether a person is a subscriber or not on the forums.

I am diametrically opposed to seeing the more casual, loose, and to a degree even surprisingly equal community we have here being undone by money. I know I might not have much of a voice, but I think that this is being looked at from a technical perspective, and a 'Can we do it?' rather than 'Should we do it?' and even more important 'What reasons exist for us to not do it?'.

At the moment, the forum belongs to AB, and we have an almost decentralised centre of power, this is fascinating and it means that people aren't afraid to speak their minds or be themselves, this is even true for the admins and moderators.

Don't get me wrong here, I understand the concerns with malware, and I think that having a dedicated server to remove those worries of being hacked to hell would be nice, but we need to do this in a way that isn't simply exchanging one evil for another.

Why not just keep this all to donations, and keep this forum as a backup? Let the community's own desire for a better forum and more features for all drive the income of funds. I think you underestimate how willing the community would be.

Even I would donate $5 a month if it was just a donation subscription and it made me no better or worse than anyone else, here.

<Edit>

And heck, if you're going to do the subscriber thing, I'd even recommend including an NDA where if the person mentions that they're "a paying customer" or whatever else on the forums, their subscription will be cancelled. :p Seriously, I do think that that's baggage the Pack doesn't need.
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Silent Hunter »

I am really not sure on the idea of Subscribers at the moment. I have just seen another forum turn against itself due to a certain group of "elite" members squabbling with other members. I don't want to such drama unfold here. It would be pathetically easy for a group of Subbers to just look down on normal members and treat them crap. Even if you went with V's idea of them losing a sub, there is a precedent of them just acting like they are better which in turn can cause members to act more like arseholes. You may counter with the fact that mods can deal with that but the fact remains that it can be very easy to be passive aggressive or lightly aggressive with someone without ever having to say a direct insult. This can get even worse if any of these people get into the mod team.

On top of that I like the equality of the forum. No member is above the other (discounting staff) in forum status. A subscription idea would disrupt that. I would favour the idea of just having "Pack Subscriber" in the title bar or something. Maybe a little icon. I have an idea of giving them a discount of mechandise which would work and would not make any forum "classes". However one thing rests in my mind that relates to selling stuff, donations and this whole idea.

Ask yourself this. How active is the Packs Den? No, properly ask it deducting one hit wonder posters, "I agree" posters and people who visit once in a blue moon. How big is it and how active is it's main topic (werewolves+freeborn)? This is debatable but I'd venture to say that the main pool of full contributing members is quite small as it is and on top of that, so is topics on our main theme. Now the latter is due to there being A. Little on werewolves left to talk about besides new iterations of them. B. Little to talk about relating on Freeborn (oh come on, an update in how long?). Now there is a fine chance that more members will flock if Freeborn is finally completed and advertised. However, this may not happen if Freeborn does not get out much and on top of that, it may not happen if Freeborn is not that good. The reality of Freeborn being potentially bad is there no matter how much we would all like to deny it.

Therefore before you talk about any of this sub stuff or anything like that, you should make the forum far far more active then it currently is. We should not have to rely on Freeborn to put wind behind our sails. The idea of this being an interesting forum for were beasts, other "horror" creatures and such would be a realistic goal and would give the forum a lot more to talk about. With that idea you could attract more and more people from more diverse places rather than just were lovers. This would also help kill stagnation potentially. All of this would mean more members and things like Tak's Gallery function and News on Werewolves would be a lot more used and therefore, more worthwhile when it comes to time investement.

The idea of a larger influx of members does mean that our staff would have to keep to a high standard of posting but as long as we keep that standard, nothing will go wrong in that sense and therefore we can have a larger amount of members without it all going to the dogs. Concequently more members can mean more donations for better stuff. Even more so if the community is a good one as people will want to see it thrive. It is fair to say that people may not like the idea of a bigger forum but we cannot all agree. Besides, its not like we will automatically become a 1000 active member forum.

I am not sure what you guys would think of that but thats my two pence. :D
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Re: Server downtime

Post by outwarddoodles »

Here's an idea: Perhaps as a minimal incentive, Members who donate can receive a special Pack Title -- something non-obtrusive, and perhaps just enough to let the donating member know that their contribution was received with gratitude. This title could be permanent, or 'wear off' after a set time. Or, have an option for 'current' and 'previous' Donator. We could also even create a new Moon image, or an icon to appear next to the username if the admins are willing to go that far.

This would not by any means be demonstrative of 'Rank.'

Free Art/Sketches also works as a great incentive here. Or, for fund raising; auctioning of no longer wanted items such as video games, art supplies, figurines, etc.

Otherwise, subscriptions are a big "NO" for me. And Privatizing would lose my participation here. Both would destroy the community that makes The PACK worth donating to.
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Sevena »

i dont think any special pack title should be given at all, anything that could be displayed to show that a pack member contributes or subscribes could lead to resentment.if subscription to the pack was to happen it should be kept confidential.if the whole idea of the subscribers having alittle something extra with in the pack forum is to much then maybe just something small like a bumper sticker could be produced for those who choose to subscribe.it would keep subscribers and non-subscribers as a whole.how many people that say they will donate , will actually donate to the forum when needed.if you rely strickly upon donations to keep the server, sooner or later there will be no money to support it, or it could cause grief upon some pack members who really cant donate but feel they need to, to keep things up and running.a subscription does not have to divide the pack, in fact it could help it as a whole.as i stated in a prior post i fully understand all the concerns that could come from this and it is very evident in this thread.a subscription among even a few dozen every year could help in many ways.also something special for the subscribers might not even be need'd,if we truly value this pack we can give without receiving.
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Re: Server downtime

Post by takyoji »

Just to clarify as the subscription idea:
  • It's not for charging an arm and a leg. Perhaps $5/half year, it could even be lower. (in comparison, deviantART is at $5/month)
  • Assume 30 people all buy a subscription for a year long, that totals to $300. Of course, subscription would not be the ONLY option of revenue, as there would still be donation, advertisement, etc. So if you adjust the figures to something realistic, like just 10 people getting a year-long subscription would be $100, other methods could account for the remaining needed. Overall, cost would be very low, so that more are able to buy.
  • I have no idea where people were getting the idea of having it as accessing to something private. It would be some basic features added on. For example, deviantART allows artists to have polls, request critiques (not just comments), journal skins, discounts, deviations per page, deeper gallery statistics, etc. I'm not implying to have those, but perhaps similar. One of the reason some of those features are provided through a subscription is to keep from everyone using it to conserve server resources.
  • Some basic examples of features a subscription could provide are
    • A WYSIWYG editor for when writing posts
    • Larger attachment quota
    • Instant notification of new replies, private messages, etc via a minimalistic desktop client that runs in the system tray (rather than the delay of checking your email account, or an email client syncing every couple minutes or so).
    • Have your own email account (not so certain about that idea though)
    • Ability to customize the layout to your needs.
    • Have it automatically sync art you post on websites like deviantART, Sheezyart, and so on to your account on The Packs Den
    • Pretty much anything else
  • Subscription features would be in the concept of convenience, rather than discrimination.
  • This is the last time I'm trying to clarify the thoughts on the subscription model; I don't mind if we're without it; I just feel everyone's looking at it disproportionately.
As for giving a special status to those who donate or subscribe, it's a bit questionable. For subscribers, definitely no. For donaters, it goes either way; for incentive, or simply for karma (or whatever term best fits).

Additionally, I think the ad hoc nature of the forum's general topic around werewolves is a thing that keeps some interested to the forum (although, I'm not phrasing it exactly as I have it in mind). Trying to broaden the whole forum to any human-like form in general could lose a few; as for making a new board for discussion of any other such being would be alright, rather than having the concept forum-wide.
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Sevena »

im gonna apologize for my use of the words, private or extras concerning subscribers, i feel they may have added some confusion to this topic, i should have used the words Enhanced Features for subscribers. :blush:

when i used the word extra's i was referring to the enhanced features, and subscribers having access to a private area of the forum, well, it was just an idea, not to be confused with Takyoji's.
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Re: Server downtime

Post by takyoji »

Regardless of the method(s) used for gaining sufficient funds, we would need to appoint the appropriate individual for being some form of a financial secretary (or whatever term best fits). Shall it be Anthony Brownrigg, or someone else (other than myself)? The only worries about having Anthony of the position is that usually he's a difficult individual to get in contact with, it would be another task to throw on his plate that's probably already full of other tasks, and additionally he typically implies that the forum is it's own entity, rather than something needing specifically his governance/decision making (if I remember/understand correctly).
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Sevena »

I dont know about others but this is the one forum i have joined in years and actually enjoy coming to.Regardless of what is done, i think something needs to be done about the server.This community needs to come together and try to make this a more stable place.With the down time this past week and the problems we seem to be having here you would think that members would join together in a common goal to figure out what can be done,explore different options we might have as a community and put some decision into motion.Im backing Takyoji's idea, if others think they have a better idea they should post it in full so it can be read and considered by the community.If the majority of the members here dont see a problem with the way this site has been running then i guess things will remain the same,would be a shame though if we have the opportunity to make this a better place ,more stable place and choose not to.Just a few of my thoughts on the server downtime. :)
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Shadow Wulf »

Actually Takyoji and I are working on moving this server indefinitely. I don't think that requires much of a vote to want to do that. But it will takes all of us as a community to help pay for the new server. Takyoji is shopping around for the best and most affordable server around, I am ready to put a good amount of money down for the server, and I am sure perhaps a few others as well. If anything I would give it maybe 2-3 months at the most for us to find a server and move into it and Takyoji said it would be quick and painless. So don't worry Sevena, moving to another server is not much of an issue, I think we can get most of the cost covered very easily for the first year at least. We are also trying to choose on who to be in charge for making the payment and handling the money for the site, it hasn't been decided yet, but when we do we will let you know right away. As soon as we establish a person then the donations will likely go to that person (maybe via paypal).

So thank you everyone for your patience and commitment to the pack. We will do everything in our power to make this forum a better place. :D
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Sevena »

Coolbeans people! Yes keep the updates coming(when you have some that is). :party: :P
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Re: Server downtime

Post by Scott Gardener »

Mixed feelings. I'm willing to pay to subscribe, but I don't want everyone to have to, or for anyone not paying to be nagged about it. Most people do not pay when it's optional, and I suspect a huge portion of regular Pack members at any given moment can't afford the expense. Some good long-timers over the past few years have been through some pretty tight financial crunches, and I don't want to see them treated as lesser members.

I've actually found DeviantArt's model to be fairly unobtrusive--you get a better page view with more images per page, a few extra features, no ad banners, and an asterisk instead of a tilde beside your name. I was a free member on DeviantArt for almost six years before I finally took the plunge less than a month ago and started subscribing--not so much for the better page views, but rather because I had been there so long, and I felt that I should contribute, given all that they were doing for me. Granted, the larger, ad-free pages are nice.

One thing DeviantArt has that The Pack doesn't is advertisements. But, I really, really, really want to keep it that way. We have a great, slick-looking site. If we start adding the visual clutter of ad banners, it'll be a horrific step backwards. If we do go to a free versus paid member model, I would strongly urge that the difference be minimal, so that the majority of members who don't subscribe aren't constantly nagged and pestered about it.

Nanowrimo (National Novel Writing Month) puts halos beside the names of donors, and puts us on a thank-you page. That's it. Plus, we're offered a few freebies such as stickers and bookmarks. It's purely voluntary, and about 5% of members donate. Those who don't aren't made to feel any less important. But, they receive enough donations to keep their site up and running, and they've been able to donate surplus funds towards charities, such as building a library for children in Cambodia.
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...
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