What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Sevena » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:07 am

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Last edited by Sevena on Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by ledrif » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:32 pm

Generally those who claim to be werewolves are trying to draw atention to themselves because they fell alone or they have some mental problems or even they are just joking around....
Try discovering wich of those they are and act properly
1-Fell alone: try talking with him or even just entretain him...
2-Mental problem: Ignore act as if nothing had happned....
3-jokers: if you are in the mood continue the joke or if you are not just make him STFU...
4-Wannabes: you know what to do with those don't you?
5-If none of the above: I don't know what to do.....

That's what I would have done in those situations If you don't agree with me then I'm not arguing....
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by MistressWolf » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:20 pm

I know the point of the thread I was just saying.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by RedEye » Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:40 pm

What to do is simple.

A Moderator or an Administrator takes the person aside and explains that it is policy here that Werewolves, Shifting, and honest government are fictional and have no reality whatsoever.

If they keep it up, they usually go bye-bye.

That's what we do... :wink:
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:30 pm

The Therian Community was founded in 1993 as an product of a Werewolf Fansite called AHWW (Alternate Horror Werewolf). For at least 10 years, they called themselves Werewolves, Were - (otherthings), and Weres. That's probably why the older Therians still call themselves "Werewolves".

I personally prefer "Werewolf" to "Therian" because, being a sociologist by education, I know that for a society to be stable, it needs roots and there is very little history attached to "Therian" whereas, there is quite a lot of history (if you care to dig it up) associated with "Werewolf". If you look at the history of Werewolves, you can see three distinct periods. What most people are familiar with is the time period since the 15th century. Werewolves mentioned in that period are quite obviously different from those before. The later Werewolves were pretty obviously very sick people. Before, they were not only sound, they were accepted by their communities. They were, in fact, accepted by the church as is evidenced by what they were called - the Dogs of God and Saint Peter's Wolves. They also didn't change shape.

Let me repeat that - the original, historical Werewolves did not change shape - they were shamans who took on a wolf form in the shamanic realm. Probably the most famous since his trial records survived the Inquisition pretty much intact, was Theiss.

The older tradition survives today in Eastern Europe.

It is very frustrating dealing with role players when you use the term "Werewolf" to refer to yourself - one reason why the term "Therian" was adopted - it's just easier to work with when you're talking to Mainstreamers.

On the otherhand, I've never had a problem calling myself a Werewolf on Therian forums - possibly because I've been around long enough to get away with it - but there are a lot of young Therians who take my lead and they don't seem to run into problems either. Actually, "Werewolf" is coming back somewhat.

I think it's becoming more prevalent as therianthropy becomes a offline phenomenon.

But, you're right, I tend to refer to myself as a Therian in mixed company - it's just more comfortable like that.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by RedEye » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:53 pm

This is one of the more intelligent responses to the question of what to do with...
Thank you.
:D
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:10 pm

I certainly understand the irritation with the assorted granola parading around the Internet calling themselves "Werewolves". In fact, online it's hard to tell just who you're talking to so it's next to impossible to differentiate between roleplayers, wannabees, and actual Therians. That's not true of the offline community and, after you spend a little time offline with Therians, the differences become painfully obvious.

It's important, though, to understand that there was a vast difference between the people called "werewolves" before the 15th century and those called werewolves during the brief history of the witch trials. What most people think of today when they think "werewolf" are the ones during the witch trials.

That's frustrating to me because today's Therians very much resemble the earlier werewolves and have more right to the term than what most people think of as werewolves. "Werewolf" may well be our ancestral name which we've been cheated out of.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Morkulv » Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:25 am

Scott Gardener wrote: I'd be afraid to shift if I were to lose control. If I just looked fuggly, I'd simply be annoyed every full moon.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:30 am

It's pretty obvious that you've got your own ideas and you're not interested in what I'm saying, because your post indicates that you didn't read what I posted (or, at least, didn't pay any attention to it). No where did I say that a Werewolf was a wolf, part wolf, person who turns into a wolf, or anything of the like. Neither did I ever say that Therians earned the title Werewolf. I only said that it's what we are. The title very likely belongs to us because we are what the early werewolves are.

The early Ceyenne called themselves Tsistsitsas (pardon any misspelling). If a modern Ceyenne decided to call theirself a Tsistsitsa, they would certainly be correct in doing so and I don't think anyone would call them on it. On the contrary, if New York bankers were to start calling themselves Tsistsitsas, the Ceyenne people would certainly have reason to call them on that.

You didn't earn the right to call yourself human (I don't know what kind of human you are so I can't get any closer), that's just what you are (or, at least I assume you're not a bot or a virus or such). The oriiginal Werewolves were not wolves, part wolves, people who turned into wolves, or anything of the kind. By early descriptions, they were shamans who traveled in Dreamtime in the form of wolves and bears, and such.

Many (most? all?) modern Therians report spontaneous shamanistic experiences in which they travel in the form of nonhuman animals. There is quite a lot of evidence, if not outright proof, that the differences between them and other humans are neurophysiological. Every indication points toward the idea that we are the same people as the early werewolves and I've not seen anything to contradict it. It's certainly not arrogance for us to call ourselves "Werewolves". On the otherhand, to condemn us for calling ourselves "werewolves" simply because we don't comply with your quite recent view of what a werewolf should be - that's arrogance.

By the way, I'm a 56 year old vocational evaluator with udergraduate training in psychology (with an emphasis on sociology) and pharmacy (with an emphasis on brain physiology) and graduate training in gehabiliatation and special education. Along wi 10 years of post-scondary training, I've been studying the phenomenon of therianthropy in research libraries, on Internet forums, and in the offline Therian community since the early 70s. I'm respected in my fields of rehabilitation science, evangelism, and volunterism. And I'm certainly not a social isolate, being very active in both the Theran and the larger human communities.

What's your background? What's the basis of your opinion? I'm happy to debate you.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Morkulv » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:54 pm

You are a 56 year old vocational evaluator with udergraduate training in psychology and therian? Why do I find that hard to believe? Also, you say that you are a therian yourself. How can you possibly perform a objective research when you claim to be a part of the community you claim to be studying? Doesn't that sound even a little bit rediculous to you? I'm not trying to flame you here, I'm giving you my honest opinion on how I reflect on your post.

Therianthropy is largely something that is made up on the internet, a internet-subculture if you will, for young people to escape their boring daily human lives. We humans always identified ourselves with animals, and I'm perfectly fine with that. What I'm opposed to though, is people who make up any sort of belief to themselves of something that they are not. You can never be a wolf, and some therians have trouble accepting that fact. You can be a human, make the best out of it, and take inspiration out of the animal-kingdom.

What kind of proof do you have by the way, of people having "spontaneous shamanistic experiences" as you call it? If there is so much evidence, then why are we even having this discussion? Please show this to me. If you have been researching this subject since the early 70's I'm sure you can provide such a claim with valid arguments.

I think its rediculous that you think you have the right to call yourself a werewolf, even though therianthropy has nothing to do with the myths that the term "werewolf" is based on. Smart therians have explained this, and have no trouble just calling themselves therians, so why do you?

I don't need to lay down my credentials for you in order to have this discussion, thank you very much.
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:48 pm

O.O

Gosh....you don't believe me???!! Well, it's pretty convenient for you that it's impossible to prove anything about anyone on the Internet. Of course, a little reserach - I work for the West Central Alabama Rehabilitation Center in Selma. We have a website - check it out. My names Payton Wolf Bailey VanZandt and I use my first name there.

When research is done on a human being, who do you think does it - nonhumans? Naaaaah - Humans do research on Humans. Does that mean that all research on humans is biased? Maybe so but that's the way it works - throw out all the books and let the rats start over.

And I'm not claiming any strict laboratory research. There's not much opportunity for that right now - which is why I clearly said that there is no proof - only evidence. Heh, but that's a heck of a lot better than what you have - you do realize that all you have is opinion. Right?

It didn't occur to me that you were trying to flame me - I just figured that you were rather sheltered and that your opinions reflected the fact and that continbues to be my impression.

And so, neither am I trying to flame you. I'm just pointing out the serious weaknesses of your position - not that they're not obvious enough.

There are probably about 10 Therans offline to every one online. It's most certainly not an Internet phenomena. Where in the world did you come by that?

You want evidence that Therians have spontaneous shamanistic experiences - now this is one of those things about the Internet that shows it's weaknesses - there's no way to provide any evidence that you would accept. If you want incidental reportings, all you have to do is go to a Therian forum - but you would disallow that as people imagining things.

The community's only been around since 1993 - there hasn't been a whole lot of time for academia to have caught up with us and for anything to have been published. Historically, all you have to do is read in the anthropological journals but you can get some information out of books like The Night Battles by Carlos Ginzberg and Werewolves and Vampires in Romania by Harry A. Senn.

There's plenty of information on the Werewolf culture of the past - go study it instead of just sucking up what you're fed by pop culture.

It's absolutely true that therianthropy has nothing to do with the myths connected with Werewolves. On the other and, it has everything to do with the facts of historical Werewolves such as Theiss.

I've explained why I use the older term "Werewolf". If you could read you wouldn't have to ask me over and over again.

I apologised - I'm sure you can read You prefer to ignore things that don't agree with you world view. I understand.

Actually, you should lay down your credentials if they'll help you any - you're not doing very well. But you're makng me happy. You're a good example about how some individuals are unable to go beyond their commonplace ideas when presented with something a little different. I hope maybe others will see that there's a problem with that and will decide to check out what's actually going on out here in the real world.

By the way, Morkulv, I'm not angry or upset with you. It's just that people who make blatant statements of opinion as though they were fact without any basis given make me agressive and I'm driven to point out the flaws in their posts.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Morkulv » Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:05 pm

Yes it might come as a shock to you, but I don't believe you at all. You just showed me that any arguments that you could have had, fell flat. I don't think you have any kind of degree, let alone a degree in science with the lack of grammarskills that you showed in this topic.

Your argument is a very silly one. Humans do research on humans, because humans tend to have the same DNA and overall biological structure. This has nothing at all to do with my point that you cannot perform any kind of serious objective research into a community when you are a part of it. If this is the best argument you can think of, then you are one lousy scientist. Its like trying to review a car you have been driving in for years. Ofcourse it will get a positive score, because you have been driving in it for years; you'r biased!

I think that if you did any sort of research you would know that therianthropy as a subculture evolved from an internetgroup around 1992. The term therianthropy existed before that, but only in mythology and folklore. So in other words: FICTION.

Its funny how now I'm just a stubborn little person in your opinion, which shows that you have no idea who you are talking to. I've been an active member in several otherkin and therian-communities for years and a supporter of spirituality, so please don't blame me for being ignorant. I know very well about the wild stories people like you make up. I on the other hand grew out of that, because I like reality a bit more these days. That usually happens when you grow older you know.

I actually agree with you on one point in your post though, and that is that I too hope that people will check out what is actually going on in the real world; by staying skeptic and drawing a fine line between fiction and reality.

Now, about that evidence?
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:41 pm

Heh. Ignorance isn't a bad thing. It just means that you don't know something.It's only bad when you hold onto it. You didn't even check out the evidence I gave you did you?

Otherkin. That sorta explains everything.

I'm going to take your advise now. When someone's just being silly - ingnore them.

Anybody else wanna talk?

:)

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Morkulv » Sun Jun 27, 2010 11:35 am

If by 'evidence' you mean the website you mentioned; Google turned out no clear results. Either post a link to it, or make your point.

It indeed explains alot, since the term otherkin and therian go hand in hand throughout both communities and overlap in several perspectives.

If by 'silly' you mean 'realistic', then yes, I am. I'm sorry to disappoint you that I'm not as gullible as you perhaps hoped I would be.
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:14 pm

Markolv actually brings up an important issue. There's a lot of confusion between the Furry, Otherkin, and Therian communities. Although there is some overlap, there is no necessary connections. It's pretty much coincidence that some Therians happen to find the Furry community appealing, for instance.

Many Therians (in fact, many Draconic, Fae, and other types often considered under the umbrella term "otherkin") do not like being associated with the otherkin community and the reason is exemplified quite clearly by Mr. Markolv.

Thechnically, "otherkin" denotes any human that self-identifies as a nonhuman, whether alien, nonhuman animal, or Pokemon. But the otherkin community is something else entirely. Mr. Markolv seems to want to go the easy route by getting all his information off the Internet. I give him names of books and he tries to find an Internet link. He's been associated with the Otherkin community - no wonder he thinks that everyone that's different is fantasizing.

There are otherkin that swear that they're anime characters - that somehow they've linked into another world where Pokemon are real. There are Otherkin that say that they're angels. There are otherkin who say that they have daemons just like in the Pullman books.

There actually are Vampires, and Fae, Angelics and Draconics out there, but the ones that seem to have something genuinely different going on in them do not like to be associated with otherkin.

Therians came together on the Internet simply because it afforded the opportunity. THerians existed long before that time, though. As I've said, there are far more Therians offline than online. If you really want to know about the Therian community, don't go online. In the first place, you won't be able to distinguish between Therians, fantasizers, roleplayers, and wannabees. In the second place, the Internet is not a repository of scholarly information - it's not generally peer reviewed. And don't accept what people like Markolv or myself tells you. Don't be lazy - get out and do your own research but, for crying out loud, don't do it on the Internet.

If you really want to know about us, get to know us in real life.

By the way, if you're ever in Selma, stop by the Rehabilitation Center. If I'm not doing an evaluation, I'll be glad to talk to you.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Morkulv » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:00 pm

Scott Gardener wrote: I'd be afraid to shift if I were to lose control. If I just looked fuggly, I'd simply be annoyed every full moon.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by ledrif » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:31 pm

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Sharfan » Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:01 am

Well, umm. . . Ah, heck. I'm just gonna go ahead. I'm probably going to feel stupid, but. . .

I looked up his claimed website, and found it at this link:

http://www.eswcarc.us/index_files/Page729.htm

There is a Payton listed with the last name of his username.

Now, I'm just a bystander. I've been barely able to keep up with this debate, and have no idea of half of the stuff that has been said. I make no illusions to being anything more than a slightly above-average, 17 year old from TN. I just felt like putting the link here, because it hasn't been posted yet. I'm not trying to redirect anything towards myself, because I would be unable to debate myself out of a paper bag. I'm more alligned towards modern werewolf theories involving science and shapeshifting just for the fun of the what-if scenarios, and the beauty of a creature many wish existed.

So, yeah. There it is.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Morkulv » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:41 am

Thanks for posting it, I couldn't find it. I can't find anything on the website that backs up any of his claims of "research" though.

Its too bad I live in Europe, or I would definately stop by to have a talk with that guy. :D
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:47 pm

Heck, Mork. There's Werewolves in Europe. Get out of the house sometime and you might learn something.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:50 am

Hmmmm.....let me cleanup here and, maybe, inject a little reality into your dull, otherkinish life, Mork and company.

I've been on this site off and on for some time now. I came on when some of the Freeborn people came over to Werewolf Cafe to get input for developing the movie and I enjoy it here. But I notice that it's no longer a large site and it moves slowly. Most of the threads are months old and I've never checked the bottom of a page that I was not the only one here. There doesn't seem to be many Therians here, either. The short of it is that I'm certainly not worried about anything on here influencing anyone adversely.

You? Well, you're too lazy to find a website - you have to have an address handed to you. That tells me that you would be a waste of my time. But I also gave you two book titles that would give you some access into the historical Werewolf and you don't seem to have bothered to check them out. You aren't going to actually check out any evidence I might give you- again, a waste of time. Your source of information on Werewolves is late medieval myths and the Otherkin community. Well, certainly there's a section on any otherkin site devoted to therianthropy - they like to roleplay us. And, yes, there's a little overlap but not as much as you seem to imagine.

Me? Why should I consider my informaton about the Therian community as superior to an Internet dweller like you - other than the fact that the Internet and the Othrekin community are lousy sources of academic information. Well, first, because I've been a Therian for going on 57 years this month. And I've been in the Therian community since 1999 and am quite well established. I'm on legitimate Therian websites like the Werelist and I host the longest continuously running and one of the largest Howls in the United States - so I'm intimately connected with both the onlne and offline communities.

The research I've done? I've dug through the Ralph Brown Droughon Library in Auburn, ALabama, one of the largest research libraries in the country - not jus books but professional journals and databases. I've run polls and canvasses of both the online and offline Therian Communities. I've done statistical analyses of the Werelist membership and one study of Therian personality. And I've done a joint study of the Werelist and Crosswalk, a large Chritsian website to determine if there is any conflict between therianthropy and Christianity (there isn't).

So whose opinions should I accept? Yours? Get real guy - you're just entertainment and you're quickly boring me. Your opinions aren't skeptical, they're isolated. They don't mean anything outside of the heads of you and a couple of your high-fiving buddies.

In brief, I don't care what you think, nor, I would imagine, does anyone else that really matters to me. And I couldn't care less what comes out of the Otherkin community. It's not like the world is beating paths to your or the Otherkin community's respective doors. In fact, most people would suddenly find you uninteresting when they find that you spend your time on otherkin and Werewolf fan sites. Gosh, at least I'm involved in community affairs and church affairs. I do have some connections in areas that the wider human community gives some weight to.

Come on, guy. Get real. You've no reason to have such a high opinion of your own opinions. They simply don't carry that much weight. As it is. I'm not debating you any more. I might drop in to support some other person who wants information and is willing to look at the books and other resources I recommend; or people that see the huge gapping holes in your diatribe against Werewolves.

And if there's any question about the way you work.....You can think of a come back for anything anyone wishes to say contrary to your opinion - it doesn't even have to make sense because most people won't check out what you have to say. I mean, you accuse me of saying that there are no Therians in the Otherkin community whereas I very clearly agreed that there is overlap. What I said is the many Therians do not want to be associated with the otherkin community. The post is still up there - go check.

So you're going to think of some comeback to anything that anyone says that doesn't line up with your opinion and it's going to go on and on and on and..... an endless, boooooring debate that goes around and around and around and around and never ends. Who wants to be involved in that. Well, not me.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Morkulv » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:06 pm

People on otherkin-forums like to roleplay therians? Are you serious? Do you really expect me to take you serious with statements like that?

This certifies as proof for the arrogance I adressed earlier in this topic within the therian-community, and you think you can just come on this forum and talk down to me like I know nothing about therians? Please go back to your little 'elite' fantasy-world, that is opened only for "true" therian-scientists.

The whole attitude that shines through your post and the rediculous assumptions you make just underscores how pointless it is to have a discussion with you. Face it; you are a sore loser.
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:36 pm

Woof!

Did I touch a nerve?

Yep, I'm serious. And I don't think I "lost" either.

Your the one that started off with the idea that Therians because they are Otherkin are fatasizers and people who want attention.

I guess when you call them fantasizers it's alright but when I call them fantasizers, I'm being arrogant. I sense some hypocrasy here.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by JoshuaMadoc » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:27 am

Hey you two.

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WolfVanZandt
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:07 am

:)

Heh, that's pretty cool. I always wanted to be a Stooge. Am I Curly or Moe?

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