Swiss voters back ban on minarets

[Uniform Two Six]

Did I ever say you didn't know a thing about violent crime? No.

Yeah, but you're using the crime rate in Sweden as a justification to outlaw a religion. We've got the same problems over here (and if anything they're probably worse), and you're making the claim that we have no familiarity with the situation. With regard to the specific issues, that may be so, but in a general sense, every country has these problems. That Sweden was (I guess) recently culturally more homogenous, doesn't make outlawing a religion (or preserving cultural purity, or whatever the heck you want to call it) any less unethical.

[Terastas]

In regard to my culture, I'd rather not share that kind of thing with somebody who's arguments only exist of immature remarks.

Yeah, because you don't know. This is the exact same crap I used to have to put up with when giving my bratty little cousin a math quiz.

Me: "Okay, what's 3+9."
Him: "Umm. . . I'm not telling you!"

So we've come to this, huh? Sad.

Islam and free speech are not compatible, islam is compatible with spreading.

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." ~Matthew 28:19-20

Every major religion commands its followers to spread it one way or another. The key is knowing how to lead by example instead of by force.

This ties back into what I'd said about my belief that superior cultures are the ones that require no defense. The most superior (interpretations of) faiths are the ones that foreigners respect, admire, and eventually adopt for themselves. What the Swiss voters just did, however, was drive away by example; people are now looking at this bout of xenophobic idiocy and are now opting away from Euro-culture and Christianity. Really, if the two of you had been my first impressions of Euro-culture and Christianity, I'd have wanted absolutely nothing further to do with either one of them either.

Please, by all means go to Iraq, say something about Allah and have your head chopped off, that way you can at least see my point here.

Yeah, you wish. Iraq the country is a mess, but the Iraqi people as a whole are of a quality you could never even dream of (most of the terrorists come into Iraq from over the border). I've had the pleasure of meeting quite a few, including some who were direct refugees from the war, and the only thing I can think of that amazes me more than some of the absolute s*** they have lived through in the past is how respectful and optimistic they can be in the present.

Actually, I take that back. There is one more thing I can think of more amazing than that, and that's how ridiculously pompous, hateful and otherwise completely stone-cold ignorant you and Spongy are acting. Seriously you two, grow up already.

[Morkulv]

Yeah you know SO much about Iraq, since you've been there so many times ofcourse.

Please, cut the bullshit, you don't know ANYTHING you claim you do. You only think you do because you read something on the internet about it. The only ignorance I see is you who keeps thinking you know EVERYTHING about other countries, THAT is pure arrogance. Sure I may be "Eurotrash" according to you, but you are a pure arrogant American fatass for claiming something like you do.

Thats about all I'm gonna say about it.

[Aki]

Terry's original point is still rather correct - banning Minarets isn't going to solve anything. It's going to piss off moderates and energize the radicals. Pushing away the moderates is a poor idea because then you're left with the assholes, or you have more assholes, because you've gone and pushed the moderate into becoming a radical. Good idea - wait, no.

Additionally, it's not going to stop construction of places of worship at all. Scientology tends to run rather covert looking centers as well as their big, grandiose churches - it's not like Islam couldn't follow that example with minaret-less Mosques.

It's just a poor idea, all around. You're solving nothing and pissing people off.

Also, lol @ the idea that Christianity is any less violent. I'm sure the folks who died in the Crusades would disagree vehemently.

[Morkulv]

Terry's original point is still rather correct - banning Minarets isn't going to solve anything. It's going to piss off moderates and energize the radicals. Pushing away the moderates is a poor idea because then you're left with the assholes, or you have more assholes, because you've gone and pushed the moderate into becoming a radical. Good idea - wait, no.

Additionally, it's not going to stop construction of places of worship at all. Scientology tends to run rather covert looking centers as well as their big, grandiose churches - it's not like Islam couldn't follow that example with minaret-less Mosques.

It's just a poor idea, all around. You're solving nothing and pissing people off.

Also, lol @ the idea that Christianity is any less violent. I'm sure the folks who died in the Crusades would disagree vehemently.

I don't care, it doesn't give ANYONE the right to point fingers at what is right in a country and what isn't. I have been to America before, but you don't see me telling Americans what political choises they should make because I DON'T KNOW. I don't live there, so I don't know. I can give my opinion sure, but I cannot tell what is right or wrong. Spongy was listing things of what HE experienced in his own country, and for someone to just tell what is a lie and what is not is just absurd, and arrogant. There is just NO excuse for that.

PERIOD.

[Silent Hunter]

Terry's original point is still rather correct - banning Minarets isn't going to solve anything. It's going to piss off moderates and energize the radicals. Pushing away the moderates is a poor idea because then you're left with the assholes, or you have more assholes, because you've gone and pushed the moderate into becoming a radical. Good idea - wait, no.

Additionally, it's not going to stop construction of places of worship at all. Scientology tends to run rather covert looking centers as well as their big, grandiose churches - it's not like Islam couldn't follow that example with minaret-less Mosques.

It's just a poor idea, all around. You're solving nothing and pissing people off.

Also, lol @ the idea that Christianity is any less violent. I'm sure the folks who died in the Crusades would disagree vehemently.

I don't care, it doesn't give ANYONE the right to point fingers at what is right in a country and what isn't. I have been to America before, but you don't see me telling Americans what political choises they should make because I DON'T KNOW. I don't live there, so I don't know. I can give my opinion sure, but I cannot tell what is right or wrong. Spongy was listing things of what HE experienced in his own country, and for someone to just tell what is a lie and what is not is just absurd, and arrogant. There is just NO excuse for that.

PERIOD.

Again you are basically saying that if someone is not from that area, they have no right whatsoever to say anything about that. That logic is absurd. "Oh the Plumber has flooded my kitchen but since I don't know what it's like to work as a Plumber or be one, I cannot comment". Also going by your logic, nothing could be debated as often you end up being at least partially outside of a situation. You could be debating on a crime filled area but by your logic, you cannot suggest to fix it as you don't know what it's like and only the people there should be able to comment on that. I can understand if he is saying that your lying when you arn't but my point still stands.

Also I would love to see how banning what is basically the Islamic version of church bells will solve radical Islam.

[Spongy]

Sums it all up nicely, at least the situation in Sweden.

[Terastas]

Yeah you know SO much about Iraq, since you've been there so many times ofcourse.

Please, cut the bullshit, you don't know ANYTHING you claim you do. You only think you do because you read something on the internet about it. The only ignorance I see is you who keeps thinking you know EVERYTHING about other countries, THAT is pure arrogance. Sure I may be "Eurotrash" according to you, but you are a pure arrogant American fatass for claiming something like you do.

Thats about all I'm gonna say about it.

I don't care, it doesn't give ANYONE the right to point fingers at what is right in a country and what isn't. I have been to America before, but you don't see me telling Americans what political choises they should make because I DON'T KNOW. I don't live there, so I don't know. I can give my opinion sure, but I cannot tell what is right or wrong. Spongy was listing things of what HE experienced in his own country, and for someone to just tell what is a lie and what is not is just absurd, and arrogant. There is just NO excuse for that.

Oh, so you have been to Iraq? Excuse me, but weren't you the one brought Iraq into this discussion in the first place?

And Spongy: Wasn't it you that said, right out of the blue, that America has no history and no culture?

So what does that mean? That it's okay for you to throw out total loads of bull about other countries, but not right for anyone from other countries to even express doubt about what you say about your own? Good god, how freakin' dumb and selfish can you get?

You brought other countries into this discussion. I should have picked up on that sooner -- you told us not to say a damn thing about your culture then went right ahead and brushed ours off as being nonexistent. Do unto others as you would have done unto you and all that rot.

You piss all over the Muslim people, their history and their culture, but you refuse to say anything or let anything be said of your own. You told us we knew nothing of European culture, then said the U.S. has no culture at all. You told us not to lecture about places we've never been, then you dragged Iraq of all places into this. A classic example of someone spotting the speck but missing the log (to reference the Bible again).

I say again: Grow up already.

[Gevaudan]

I think Aki has made the most intelligent post in this debate so far.

Cultures cannot be regulated. They can be affected by outside events, such as political legislation, but they can't be controlled except unjustly. I'm not advocating for multiculturalism here, but there should not be a problem with religious freedom. Religious law can be checked and kept out of government when necessary, and violence can be curbed, but fundamentally people should be able to believe whatever they want, as long as they don't force it on others (the recent Catholic lobbying in Congress on the health care bill comes to mind, so it's not like Europe is the only one with problems with politicalized religions). I believe whatever the actual situation is, these are the goals that should be held above any sort of "anti-Islamisation" or "multiculturalism": Separation of church and state, suppression of violence, and freedom of religion. There's no need to have an agenda for or against any particular group. Violence exists within individuals, not groups of individuals. Arguing that one group, as opposed to individual members of that group, does (or does not) hurt others is a gross generalization.

[Morkulv]

Yeah you know SO much about Iraq, since you've been there so many times ofcourse.

Please, cut the bullshit, you don't know ANYTHING you claim you do. You only think you do because you read something on the internet about it. The only ignorance I see is you who keeps thinking you know EVERYTHING about other countries, THAT is pure arrogance. Sure I may be "Eurotrash" according to you, but you are a pure arrogant American fatass for claiming something like you do.

Thats about all I'm gonna say about it.

I don't care, it doesn't give ANYONE the right to point fingers at what is right in a country and what isn't. I have been to America before, but you don't see me telling Americans what political choises they should make because I DON'T KNOW. I don't live there, so I don't know. I can give my opinion sure, but I cannot tell what is right or wrong. Spongy was listing things of what HE experienced in his own country, and for someone to just tell what is a lie and what is not is just absurd, and arrogant. There is just NO excuse for that.

Oh, so you have been to Iraq? Excuse me, but weren't you the one brought Iraq into this discussion in the first place?

And Spongy: Wasn't it you that said, right out of the blue, that America has no history and no culture?

So what does that mean? That it's okay for you to throw out total loads of bull about other countries, but not right for anyone from other countries to even express doubt about what you say about your own? Good god, how freakin' dumb and selfish can you get?

You brought other countries into this discussion. I should have picked up on that sooner -- you told us not to say a damn thing about your culture then went right ahead and brushed ours off as being nonexistent. Do unto others as you would have done unto you and all that rot.

You piss all over the Muslim people, their history and their culture, but you refuse to say anything or let anything be said of your own. You told us we knew nothing of European culture, then said the U.S. has no culture at all. You told us not to lecture about places we've never been, then you dragged Iraq of all places into this. A classic example of someone spotting the speck but missing the log (to reference the Bible again).

I say again: Grow up already.

I never been to Iraq, but then again you don't see me telling them how to lead their country.

We piss all over muslim history and culture just by saying that we do or we don't want mosques in our countries? Again, you are very good at completely overexagerating things. Its not my fault that you can't read.

Your statement "grow up already" is very funny by the way, coming from the one who started throwing around insults in this topic. Take a look at yourself first before you judge others.

Over here in the Netherlands there has been talk about banning muslim and other non-native people from the country when they misbehave, and I think this is a very good idea. If a muslim misbehaves, send him back to his own country for a month. I'm very positive that within that time-period they will come to realise how generous our country is. If they misbehave again; banned for 2 months. Still not behaving after that? Completely banned. Simple as that, and innocent muslims are not going to be bothered at all.

[Spongy]

I'm actually going to back out of this now.

I suck at debating, and at this point it's just arguing with you, Terestas. And methinks you're too stupid to bother with.

Oh, I went there. Sue me?

[RedEye]

This topic has degenerated from a discussion to the usual people calling the usual names.
It didn't happen here, it happened in Switzerland. Their choice, not ours.

Now we're calling names; bo-ring...

That's why I'm locking this thread- nothing is being accomplished other than the usual hot-air exchanges; and we really don't need more of those.