Swiss voters back ban on minarets

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Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Silent Hunter »

Swiss voters back ban on minarets
Swiss voters have supported a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets, official results show.

More than 57% of voters and 22 out of 26 cantons - or provinces - voted in favour of the ban.

The proposal had been put forward by the Swiss People's Party, (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which says minarets are a sign of Islamisation.

The government opposed the ban, saying it would harm Switzerland's image, particularly in the Muslim world.

The BBC's Imogen Foulkes, in Bern, says the surprise result is very bad news for the Swiss government which also fears unrest among the Muslim community.

Our correspondent says voters worried about rising immigration - and with it the rise of Islam - have ignored the government's advice.

"The Federal Council (government) respects this decision. Consequently the construction of new minarets in Switzerland is no longer permitted," said the government in a statement, quoted by the AFP news agency.

“ This will cause major problems because during this campaign in the last two weeks different mosques were attacked, which we never experienced in 40 years in Switzerland ”
Tamir Hadjipolu Zurich's Association of Muslim Organisations
Justice Minister Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf said the result reflected fear of Islamic fundamentalism.

"These concerns have to be taken seriously. However, the Federal Council takes the view that a ban on the construction of new minarets is not a feasible means of countering extremist tendencies," she said.

She sought to reassure Swiss Muslims, saying the decision was "not a rejection of the Muslim community, religion or culture".

Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

After Christianity, Islam is the most widespread religion in Switzerland, but it remains relatively hidden.

There are unofficial Muslim prayer rooms, and planning applications for new minarets are almost always refused.

Supporters of a ban claimed that allowing minarets would represent the growth of an ideology and a legal system - Sharia law - which are incompatible with Swiss democracy.

But others say the referendum campaign incited hatred. On Thursday the Geneva mosque was vandalised for the third time during the campaign, according to local media.

Before the vote, Amnesty International warned that the ban would violate Switzerland's obligations to freedom of religious expression.

'Political symbol'

The president of Zurich's Association of Muslim Organisations, Tamir Hadjipolu, told the BBC that if the ban was implemented, Switzerland's Muslim community would live in fear.

"This will cause major problems because during this campaign in the last two weeks different mosques were attacked, which we never experienced in 40 years in Switzerland.

"So with the campaign... the Islamaphobia has increased very intensively."

Sunday's referendum was held after the People's party collected 100,000 signatures from eligible voters within 18 months calling for a vote.

SVP member of parliament Ulrich Schluer said the campaign had helped integration by encouraging debate. He rejected the charge of discrimination.

In recent years many countries in Europe have been debating their relationship with Islam, and how best to integrate their Muslim populations.

France focused on the headscarf, while in Germany there was controversy over plans to build one of Europe's largest mosques in Cologne.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8385069.stm


Quite sad in my opinion. Maybe they should ban Church Steeples too. The fear of Islamification is debatablely valid but this is just taking it too far.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Gevaudan »

So basically, 43% of Swiss voters in the decision, standing up for 4% of the population, lost. I hate majority rule. I agree, this is sad.

EDIT: I've figured this out mathematically. 23% of the total population of Switzerland (equivalent to 30.5% of the total voting-age population of Switzerland) caused this bill to pass. This isn't even majority rule, especially since 47% of voting-age Swiss citizens didn't even vote.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Terastas »

Silent Hunter wrote:Maybe they should ban Church Steeples too. The fear of Islamification is debatablely valid but this is just taking it too far.
That should be the next step for the opposition.

This isn't going to work as intended because Islam is being deliberately singled out among all other religions. The only people who are going to benefit from this are the religious extremists themselves (the people who don't go to mosque anyway) -- this vote just gave them an ideal antagonist. It's an obviously anti-Islamic vote, which is all they need to stir up dissent among Swiss Muslims and start recruiting.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Spongy »

Yes! Score one for Europe!
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Set »

Oh noes, teh ebil Islam. :roll:
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Silent Hunter »

Spongy wrote:Yes! Score one for Europe!
Of course, everyone knows that those evil minarets are dominating the country! I mean they are all over Europe and now all countries are Islamic theocracies amirite? :roll:

As said this double standard is hilarious. It's bad when the evil Muslims do it but I bet no one would raise an eyebrow if someone set up a Church steeple. I respect some fear of a Islamic controlled Europe but this is the most pathetic way to go about it.

Also relating to that article, those 4 minarets currently there will remain so at least it's not a total loss.

However I now expect a reply on the whole Sharia law thing and some incidents recently in different countries to counter me, if a reply at all. I seriously doubt any can prove that Islam is any worse then Christianity, even now.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Morkulv »

In the city I live in alone are 2 mosques, which is completely unnecessary, and only serve to support the islamisation of Europe. I hope they ban it in Switserland, that would be a good start.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Silent Hunter »

Morkulv wrote:In the city I live in alone are 2 mosques, which is completely unnecessary, and only serve to support the islamisation of Europe. I hope they ban it in Switserland, that would be a good start.
Presuming your not troll baiting there, what is wrong with them having two mosques? Scared of a potential Eurabia? Please. I doubt if it were two churches, you'd not bat an eyebrow. When Muslims do it though, its unnecessary and wrong.

Oh and it has passed but Switzerland can still have those evil and unnecessary mosques. I mean all Muslims day radical things in them of course.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Morkulv »

Silent Hunter wrote:
Morkulv wrote:In the city I live in alone are 2 mosques, which is completely unnecessary, and only serve to support the islamisation of Europe. I hope they ban it in Switserland, that would be a good start.
Presuming your not troll baiting there, what is wrong with them having two mosques? Scared of a potential Eurabia? Please. I doubt if it were two churches, you'd not bat an eyebrow. When Muslims do it though, its unnecessary and wrong.

Oh and it has passed but Switzerland can still have those evil and unnecessary mosques. I mean all Muslims day radical things in them of course.
No, churches are just as bad. In fact, if they would tow down a church over here today I would be more then happy. Islam is just as bad as any other organized religion, and therefore I think they have no place in a modern society.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Berserker »

Silent Hunter wrote:Scared of a potential Eurabia?
Yes, actually. People are scared of Islamic cultural hegemony, and rightfully so. Sharia law is incompatible with European cultures which have existed for centuries. Politicians in Europe live under the Nazi ghost and are too weak to challenge the spread of Islam for fear of being denigrated by bleeding hearts, or worse, causing riots and anarchy. (How dare a cartoonist defame Muhammad in a newspaper strip?! Off with his head!)
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Morkulv »

Berserker wrote:
Silent Hunter wrote:Scared of a potential Eurabia?
Yes, actually. People are scared of Islamic cultural hegemony, and rightfully so. Sharia law is incompatible with European cultures which have existed for centuries. Politicians in Europe live under the Nazi ghost and are too weak to challenge the spread of Islam for fear of being denigrated by bleeding hearts, or worse, causing riots and anarchy. (How dare a cartoonist defame Muhammad in a newspaper strip?! Off with his head!)
Indeed. Recently when Geert Wilders went to England the muslims were in uproar. They were protesting with signs like: "Sharia for the Netherlands" and "Islam will dominate the world" (this is NOT and exaggeration as proven by the picture below). How can anyone just stand by and go "oh thats okay because they have to right to believe what they want"?

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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Morkulv »

Spongy wrote: Morkulv, could you confirm this bit of information for me?
"-In The Netherlands, it is a criminal offense to criticise Islam. This is also happening in many other countries. You will be attacked or denied free speech if you try to say anything against Islam."
I have never heard of anything like that, although like most EU countries the Netherlands does apply certain 'blasphemy'-laws.

Theo van Gogh was also a big protester against the islam, he even made a movie about it before he died, so I guess its not that bad (yet).

There was also this bit about freedom of speech on TV, where 3 muslim-women interviewed local Dutch comedian Hans Teeuwen. Believe it or not, but that particular interview was actually elected as best TV-moment of 2007. I managed to find a subtitled version of it on Youtube, so I think you'r gonna like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhTc6eNJ-xU

(The subtitles are a little on the slow side, but you get the idea)
Last edited by Morkulv on Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Terastas »

Did it ever occur to any of you that maybe the point is to try and act better than Shariah Muslims? If they shout "Islam will dominate the world!" and you respond "We will remove Islam from the world!" where the hell does that leave the moderates?

The understanding in America (at least now that we have a sane president) is that the war we are fighting is against terrorism and extremism, not against Islam as a whole. Something a lot of people don't seem to understand on either side of the ocean, however, is that it's possible to follow a code of conduct without demanding that it be mandated by law.

Islam and Shariah Law are not synonyms. One is a system of religion, and the other is the psychotic enforcement of one man's interpretation of that religion. Shariah Law is indeed a menace and the governments of Europe should be more than willing to tell anyone who demands any Shariah-esque ordinances be written into Euro-law to go f*** themselves.

Enacting laws like this against Islam as a whole, however, are only going to suffice to further alienate moderate Muslims and add force to the Shariah movements. This is actually beneficial to radical Muslims because it gives the impression of there only being two sides, both of which are equally psychotic.

Those politically correct liberals you're complaining about? They're not edging around the issue on your behalf, or that of the Shariah movements. They're doing it for the moderate Muslims. You know, the ones that might abide by Shariah for themselves but don't expect anyone else to -- the ones that tolerate you just as they wish you would tolerate them. If you want to put an end to the "Menace of Islam," you have to start there: by separating the moderates from the psychopaths first before weeding out only the latter.

And don't give me that "there are no moderate Muslims" malarkey. They're out there -- even in this tiny little dumbass town that I live in, even I see them every now and then.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Morkulv »

Terastas wrote:Did it ever occur to any of you that maybe the point is to try and act better than Shariah Muslims? If they shout "Islam will dominate the world?!" and you respond "We will remove Islam from the world!" where the hell does that leave the moderates?

The understanding in America (at least now that we have a sane president) is that the war we are fighting is against terrorism and extremism, not against Islam as a whole. Something a lot of people don't seem to understand on either side of the ocean, however, is that it's possible to follow a code of conduct without demanding that it be mandated by law.

Islam and Shariah Law are not synonyms. One is a system of religion, and the other is the psychotic enforcement of one man's interpretation of that religion. Shariah Law is indeed a menace and the governments of Europe should be more than willing to tell anyone who demands any Shariah-esque ordinances be written into Euro-law to go f*** themselves.

Enacting laws like this against Islam as a whole, however, are only going to suffice to further alienate moderate Muslims and add force to the Shariah movements. This is actually beneficial to radical Muslims because it gives the impression of there only being two sides, both of which are equally psychotic.

Those politically correct liberals you're complaining about? They're not edging around the issue on your behalf, or that of the Shariah movements. They're doing it for the moderate Muslims. You know, the ones that might abide by Shariah for themselves but don't expect anyone else to -- the ones that tolerate you just as they wish you would tolerate them. If you want to put an end to the "Menace of Islam," you have to start there: by separating the moderates from the psychopaths first before weeding out only the latter.

And don't give me that "there are no moderate Muslims" malarkey. They're out there -- even in this tiny little dumbass town that I live in, even I see them every now and then.
I don't want islam removed from the world, I want islam to stay into their own culture and leave European culture alone.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Lukas »

I will only address one, concerning the percentage of voters. traditionally The majority of the population of any country tends not to vote at all. hence all these voter registration campaigns. In fact you could argue that the Minor rule and the majority rest until circumstances arise to change things (e.g. Obama campaign because everyone was butthurt over bush). s*** happens like this on the local and state level all the time and in europe I"m sure some countries are more active then other, but as a whole they tend to have large masses of non-voting populations as well.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Spongy »

Terastas wrote:Snip!
Sharia has no place in the West. If you want to move to the West from the Islamic world, you abide by that countries laws, not the laws of your religion.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Silent Hunter »

I don't want islam removed from the world, I want islam to stay into their own culture and leave European culture alone.
So basically you don't want Islam stuffed in a corner never to dare touch out sparkling European values. I expect a counter of how radical some Muslims are etc but most of that is..well radical fringe stuff. I mean if I take Spongy's statement
(I.e. the treatment of women, gays, nontolerance of anything but Christianity, etc.)
Well I be, it fits nicely with Christianity with the Bible saying that death should be brought on gays, women should be subservient etc. Also don't say it does not happen still. The Murphy Report that came out in Ireland recently highlighted a long list of Catholic abuse on children. Across the pond you have fanatics and things like Jesus Camps.

But of course no one thinks that Christian steeples should be banned or that Christianity's stone age ideas should be kicked out. A lot of us recognise that most Christians are moderate though. The same pretty much applies to Islam.

Of course we cannot let their dirty minerates be erected as a sign of Islamic domination. There is no way most European Muslims are not just normal people with a different religion. Not at all.
(Interesting fact is that over the past 30 years or so, Sweden has taken in a massive, massive amount of immigrants from Islamic countries, namely the Middle East and African countries... Sweden also has the highest amount of rape in Europe, according to an EU report. Crime has also skyrocketed, whereas in the past you didn't even have to lock your doors when you went out.)
That smacks of a "In the old days" rant as well as an assumption. I would like to see proof that rape resurgence in Sweden is due to the Islamic faith and not just bad people who just happen to have Islam as their religion. Again no one would bat an eye if it was Christian immigrants.
Something's gotta be done, or we will end up with the so-called Eurabia. That's what I believe.
Sensible policy that actually tackles Islamic extremism rather than attacking normal Muslims pointlessly and making them more angry?
Sharia has no place in the West. If you want to move to the West from the Islamic world, you abide by that countries laws, not the laws of your religion.
Given that Sharia law at a low level exists here, it is in a sense law in some ways. Therefore your example there fails.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Morkulv »

Spongy wrote:
Terastas wrote:Snip!
Sharia has no place in the West. If you want to move to the West from the Islamic world, you abide by that countries laws, not the laws of your religion.
Exactly. Nobody in Europe wants to outlaw islam just for the sake of being racist or something, we want to outlaw islam to protect and preserve our own culture.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Uniform Two Six »

Morkulv wrote: How can anyone just stand by and go "oh thats okay because they have to right to believe what they want"?
Because it's called "freedom of speech". Either you have it, or you don't. It's that simple (it really is). In order to have that right, you must also accept the equally vital responsibility of freedom of speech, which is tolerance for others to express themselves freely -- even if the ideals they espouse are the most loathsome, hateful garbage on the planet. You don't have to accept what they're saying, but you do have to accept that they have the innate right to say it.
Terastas wrote: Islam and Shariah Law are not synonyms. One is a system of religion, and the other is the psychotic enforcement of one man's interpretation of that religion. Shariah Law is indeed a menace and the governments of Europe should be more than willing to tell anyone who demands any Shariah-esque ordinances be written into Euro-law to go f*** themselves.
Not exactly. There are four accepted systems of jurisprudence practiced in various parts of the world:
1. The English System (U.S., U.K., Canada, most of Western Europe, among other places. Sometimes known as the Western European System)
2. The French System (France and most of it's former colonies)
3. The Soviet System (China? maybe still practices it. I don't think Russia does anymore)
4. And (Dum, dum, DUM!!) Sharia Law (practiced in most of the Muslim world)
Now, I'm not an expert on the finer points of the differences between the English and French systems (supposedly the French system does away largely with the concept of legal precedent and Stare Decisis). I have no idea how the Soviet system differed from the first two, but Sharia is a different story. Sharia is in point of fact a legitimate legal system, and the United States has legal obligations to honor rulings made in certain select countries under Sharia (as in we have treaty obligations to that effect -- notably SOFAs and the like). Unlike any other major legal system, however, Sharia demands a dogmatic adherence to a literal interpretation of the Koran, and is one of the primary reasons why women's rights have had so little success in Muslim countries -- there's all kinds of hideously outdated stuff in the Koran that can be used (or intentionally misinterpreted) to justify that stuff. If it says in the Koran that a thief should have his hand cut off -- well, probably not a good idea to shoplift in Riyadh.

And I agree: Sharia is incompatible with other forms of jurisprudence, and anybody seriously advocating replacing western legal systems in such fashion should indeed be told to go f*** themselves.

EDIT: Jeez, getting a word in edgewise here is tough.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Silent Hunter »

Again with this protection of culture bullshit when a lot of Muslims just want to get on with their lives. The radical ones are the loudest you hear simply as they are the maddest and want change. Same with most religions actually.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Morkulv »

Silent Hunter wrote:
I don't want islam removed from the world, I want islam to stay into their own culture and leave European culture alone.
So basically you don't want Islam stuffed in a corner never to dare touch out sparkling European values.
Being stuffed in the corner is their own will, isn't it? While you are constantly on the topic of christianity, pretend you are a christian organization that for whatever reason you want to form a church in Iraq. This example is completely unthinkable, because the majority of islamic muslims are very close-minded about their religion and won't allow a other religion then islam to spread in their country.

And before you take this the wrong way again: NOT every muslim is close-minded!
Silent Hunter wrote:
Sensible policy that actually tackles Islamic extremism rather than attacking normal Muslims pointlessly and making them more angry?
Again this has nothing to do with normal, working, open-minded muslims. I even know muslims who agree with me because they also think that the radical muslims give a bad example of their religion, and I completely understand that. Plus getting angry is something that is again their own choise. If they cannot understand that alot of European countries are affraid of losing their culture to islamisation, then frankly thats their own fault.

The reason why christianity is more accepted in countries is even though in my opinion its still a bad influence on society (because I'm an atheist), christians are alot less likely to resort to violence.
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Silent Hunter »

Being stuffed in the corner is their own will, isn't it? While you are constantly on the topic of christianity, pretend you are a christian organization that for whatever reason you want to form a church in Iraq. This example is completely unthinkable, because the majority of islamic muslims are very close-minded about their religion and won't allow a other religion then islam to spread in their country.

And before you take this the wrong way again: NOT every muslim is close-minded!
There are a fair amount of backwater countries in other places too that would ruin a Church a Mosque or whatever building depending on the main faith. The reason I keep going on about Christianity is that I frankly see no real difference between the two yet both are treated differently. It is a pathetic double standard built on irrational fear.
Again this has nothing to do with normal, working, open-minded muslims. I even know muslims who agree with me because they also think that the radical muslims give a bad example of their religion, and I completely understand that. Plus getting angry is something that is again their own choise. If they cannot understand that alot of European countries are affraid of losing their culture to islamisation, then frankly thats their own fault.

The reason why christianity is more accepted in countries is even though in my opinion its still a bad influence on society (because I'm an atheists), christians are alot less likely to resort to violence.
It does as such a ban affects normal Muslims who have done nothing wrong. What will this ban achieve? It's what goes on within the mosques themselves rather than their physical features. The same goes for any Church or Temple.
"Religion and politics
Often make some people
Lose all perspective and
Give way to ranting and raving and
Carrying on like emotional children.
They either refuse to discuss it with reason,
Or else they prefer argumentum ad hominem,
Which is a hell of a way to conduct a discussion."
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Morkulv
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Morkulv »

Like Spongy said, I think every religious person should know before hand that when you move to another country that the country does not abide by religious laws and a lot of extremists seem to overlook that.

I don't see any real difference between christianity and islam as well. Frankly, I think the two beliefs are actually very simular in alot of ways. Like I said it depends more on the followers.

I could also quote about 500 things that were said by islamic extremists over here that disturb me, but I won't go there though because I know there are also good muslims all over the world.
Scott Gardener wrote: I'd be afraid to shift if I were to lose control. If I just looked fuggly, I'd simply be annoyed every full moon.
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Terastas
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Re: Swiss voters back ban on minarets

Post by Terastas »

Spongy wrote:
Terastas wrote:Snip!
Sharia has no place in the West. If you want to move to the West from the Islamic world, you abide by that countries laws, not the laws of your religion.
Isn't that what I just said?!!

You just did exactly what I was ranting about: you failed to distinguish the difference between the written laws of a country and the teachings of a religious practice.

Lets use a pretty low-brow example out of Christianity as an example: the consumption of shellfish. As you may (or may not) know, eating shellfish is forbidden by the Bible, but not by United States law.

Does that mean Christians are obligated to consume shellfish since it's legal? NO!!!
Does that mean Christians are obligated to demand it be illegal? NO!!!

The same is true of Islam. Just because you don't live in a country with Shariah law doesn't mean you can't practice Islam in your own privacy.

Why is that so hard to understand?

My guess is that it isn't getting through to them because it isn't convenient for them. This isn't a genuine concern for the sake of Democracy -- it's fanatical Catholicism under the guise of anti-Islamification.

The Swiss were irresponsible in issuing this ban, and they're really going to regret it because I guarantee you the only Swiss Muslims not planning to (or wishing they could) get the hell out of Switzerland ASAP right now are the ones that are thinking of blowing themselves up instead. -- There, end of story.
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