Swiss voters back ban on minarets

[Morkulv]

The Swiss were irresponsible in issuing this ban, and they're really going to regret it because I guarantee you the only Swiss Muslims not planning to (or wishing they could) get the hell out of Switzerland ASAP right now are the ones that are thinking of blowing themselves up instead. -- There, end of story.

If they are going to blow themselves up, don't you think that would proof the point of banning islam in the first place?

[Terastas]

The Swiss were irresponsible in issuing this ban, and they're really going to regret it because I guarantee you the only Swiss Muslims not planning to (or wishing they could) get the hell out of Switzerland ASAP right now are the ones that are thinking of blowing themselves up instead. -- There, end of story.

If they are going to blow themselves up, don't you think that would proof the point of banning islam in the first place?

Wow. Missed the point completely again.

No offense, but saying you could stop terrorist attacks by outlawing Islam is kind of like saying you could stop child molestation by outlawing Christianity.

And if you're not imaginative enough to figure out the similarities for yourself, you're too dumb to be worth any further effort into this discussion.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Simply put, I, myself a muslim, am apathetic about this. If (figuratively speaking) these 2 fighting dogs are not killing each other with guns, rockets, mines, bombs and canine teeth, they're clamping down on each other's tails and running in circles. I just find the whole thing to be just... I dunno, pointless?

[Spongy]

The Swiss were irresponsible in issuing this ban, and they're really going to regret it because I guarantee you the only Swiss Muslims not planning to (or wishing they could) get the hell out of Switzerland ASAP right now are the ones that are thinking of blowing themselves up instead. -- There, end of story.

If they are going to blow themselves up, don't you think that would proof the point of banning islam in the first place?

Wow. Missed the point completely again.

No offense, but saying you could stop terrorist attacks by outlawing Islam is kind of like saying you could stop child molestation by outlawing Christianity.

And if you're not imaginative enough to figure out the similarities for yourself, you're too dumb to be worth any further effort into this discussion.

There's no need to resort to personal insults.

[Morkulv]

The Swiss were irresponsible in issuing this ban, and they're really going to regret it because I guarantee you the only Swiss Muslims not planning to (or wishing they could) get the hell out of Switzerland ASAP right now are the ones that are thinking of blowing themselves up instead. -- There, end of story.

If they are going to blow themselves up, don't you think that would proof the point of banning islam in the first place?

Wow. Missed the point completely again.

No offense, but saying you could stop terrorist attacks by outlawing Islam is kind of like saying you could stop child molestation by outlawing Christianity.

And if you're not imaginative enough to figure out the similarities for yourself, you're too dumb to be worth any further effort into this discussion.

And if you're not imaginative enough by having to resort to personal insults then YOU are not worth going into discussion with...

Again I think you are the one missing the point. Christianity doesn't make threats, islam does. To christianity, anyone who doesn't believe in god goes to hell. According to islam, everyone who doesn't believe in allah HAS TO DIE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFOrEoZ2Fsg

Now read that again please untill you exactly get which religion looks more damaging to society. Again, I don't care what people believe in, but these kind of believes have no place in our countries. Thats about everything I have to say about this matter, and I know for a fact that alot of fellow Europeans agree with me.

[Set]

To christianity, anyone who doesn't believe in god goes to hell.

Just correcting a minor detail here:

"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed."
Exodus 22:20

[Silent Hunter]

Again I think you are the one missing the point. Christianity doesn't make threats, islam does. To christianity, anyone who doesn't believe in god goes to hell. According to islam, everyone who doesn't believe in allah HAS TO DIE.

So being joyful about the eternal torture of millions of people makes Christianity any better does it? Coupled with the fact that according Christianity, many people have to die or be put to death for trivial reasons such as being disrespect to your parents and working on the Sabbath day. Also coupled with the fact that Christian fundamentalism has ended up ruining or costing the lives of many innocent people. As I keep saying I feel there is this odd double standard. You give examples of how horrible Islamic text can be when the Bible rivals it.

I would say that no longer has any place in Europe, hell no the World the in general. However everyone is hilariously scared of Islam and instead of doing measures that work with the moderate normal Muslims and help them, people do these absurd bans which will just set more Muslims against them.

Personally I also think Islam is probably going through that phase Christianity is and will eventually "mature" if you will with far less crazies.

And if you're not imaginative enough to figure out the similarities for yourself, you're too dumb to be worth any further effort into this discussion.

The sad thing is that being on a site where flaming in debate is allowed. I actually don't feel that as an insult.

I will advice you to calm it down though Ter. Spongy and Mov are trying to explain rationally and throwing insults at them is only going to ruin this talk which I am finding interesting.

[Set]

You give examples of how horrible Islamic text can be when the Bible rivals it.

Indeed. For comparison:

The Bible
The Quran

[Morkulv]

Again I think you are the one missing the point. Christianity doesn't make threats, islam does. To christianity, anyone who doesn't believe in god goes to hell. According to islam, everyone who doesn't believe in allah HAS TO DIE.

So being joyful about the eternal torture of millions of people makes Christianity any better does it? Coupled with the fact that according Christianity, many people have to die or be put to death for trivial reasons such as being disrespect to your parents and working on the Sabbath day. Also coupled with the fact that Christian fundamentalism has ended up ruining or costing the lives of many innocent people. As I keep saying I feel there is this odd double standard. You give examples of how horrible Islamic text can be when the Bible rivals it.

I already told you that I'm against any type of organized religion so I don't think any religion is better then the other, they are all primitive mindcontrol techniques for the masses as far as I'm concerned. However almost every christian nowadays ignores the passages of the bible because it would be rediculous to live by those rules. But like I said, islam resorts to violence alot faster.

Personally I also think Islam is probably going through that phase Christianity is and will eventually "mature" if you will with far less crazies.

Sure, but how many mosques do you think will be build here in Europe in order for islam to "mature"? Think about that.

[JoshuaMadoc]

According to islam, everyone who doesn't believe in allah HAS TO DIE.

Not to nitpick, but that's according to radical islamists/muslim traditionalists. I went to friday prayers once, and the imam said this in his sermon:

The purpose of the Qur' An is not to hurl it at nonbelievers as a projectile weapon, but rather to recite the contents of it to the nonbelievers.

That's saying a lot already about how all this talk of "believe ye lest ye willst shed blood in the name of God" isn't what comes out of every muslim's mouth.

[Spongy]

According to islam, everyone who doesn't believe in allah HAS TO DIE.

Not to nitpick, but that's according to radical islamists/muslim traditionalists. I went to friday prayers once, and the imam said this in his sermon:

The purpose of the Qur' An is not to hurl it at nonbelievers as a projectile weapon, but rather to recite the contents of it to the nonbelievers.

That's saying a lot already about how all this talk of "believe ye lest ye willst shed blood in the name of God" isn't what comes out of every muslim's mouth.

That may not be the case in the rest of the world.

But here in Europe, it's an entirely different story, because our governments have allowed it to go too far. It's been discovered that many, many mosques are used as radicalist "pep centers" and recruitment centers.

[Morkulv]

That's saying a lot already about how all this talk of "believe ye lest ye willst shed blood in the name of God" isn't what comes out of every muslim's mouth.

I know that as well, like I said before. But I was ofcourse talking about the radical part of islam. It doesn't take away the fact that there is still a majority of extremist islamic people like the one's who gathered in England to protest against Geert Wilders. I'm a just mindboggled by the fact that so many muslims there only proved Geert Wilder's political point of view that the islam is radical and dangerous. So I think that in a way alot of muslims themselves are responsible for creating the stereotype muslim image.

Don't tell me you don't understand why so many people in Europe are affraid of losing their nationality and culture because of this.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Don't tell me you don't understand why so many people in Europe are affraid of losing their nationality and culture.

Because I was born in Southeast Asia and moved to Australia in 97? That and any kind of cultural issue stained by the roundaboutness of religion or politics is an instant "Like hell I'll touch this piece of a** with a 50 foot pole".

And let's not forget that I invested a lot of my research time on asian cultures and not a whole lot on the whole of Europe.

[Silent Hunter]

Sure, but how many mosques do you think will be build here in Europe in order for islam to "mature"? Think about that.

That has nothing to do with the whole Mosque/Minarets but more with Islam in general. Topic wise, banning minarets is wont stop radical Muslims in the slightest and just punishes the moderates. Minarets are just parts of Mosques, nothing more. In fact this point was brought up on another forum.

I didn't see any explanation for the idea that minarets are Mohammad Pylons shooting Allahrays into people's heads. Hell, the only thing I've seen a minaret used for is to call the faithful to prayer, which is about as annoying as church bells

Which is why I keep bringing up Christianity. You can have steeples and bells but no minarets?

I already told you that I'm against any type of organized religion so I don't think any religion is better then the other, they are all primitive mindcontrol techniques for the masses as far as I'm concerned. However almost every christian nowadays ignores the passages of the bible because it would be rediculous to live by those rules. But like I said, islam resorts to violence alot faster.

It's funny as quite a few Christians do not ignore every passage in the Bible which is why Christian Fundamentalism in the US is so strong and why there are still many incidents in Europe. Your claim that Islam does resort to violence is also baseless with nothing to back it up. Even if you do I can probably show you a similar thing regarding Christianity.

But here in Europe, it's an entirely different story, because our governments have allowed it to go too far. It's been discovered that many, many mosques are used as radicalist "pep centers" and recruitment centers

Actually, that could just be the fact that the loud ones tend to be the the crazy ones and that the Media will overstate and report problems. On top of that they are a tiny minority.

Oh and btw, Kit is from Aus.

Don't tell me you don't understand why so many people in Europe are affraid of losing their nationality and culture because of this.

The same fear that cower at the idea of the United States of Europe? Basically a valid concern that is blown out of proportion and not dealt with properly?

[Morkulv]

I already told you that I'm against any type of organized religion so I don't think any religion is better then the other, they are all primitive mindcontrol techniques for the masses as far as I'm concerned. However almost every christian nowadays ignores the passages of the bible because it would be rediculous to live by those rules. But like I said, islam resorts to violence alot faster.

It's funny as quite a few Christians do not ignore every passage in the Bible which is why Christian Fundamentalism in the US is so strong and why there are still many incidents in Europe. Your claim that Islam does resort to violence is also baseless with nothing to back it up. Even if you do I can probably show you a similar thing regarding Christianity.

Oh believe me, christians all over the world ignore passages of the bible or they would be homeless right now, considering the fact that the bible tells you to sells all your property. That is why so many christians today say "you must not take the bible so litterally", because it is filled with nonesense like that.

I wish it didn't have to come to this, but ok. About christianity:

- How many cases do you know of where people killed their own family-members in name of god (as it is clearly written in the bible you have to love your enemies and hate your family. Don't believe me? Look it up)
- How many cases do you know where people were killed because they were working on a sunday (as it is clearly written in the bible everyone who works on the sabbathday has to die)
- How many cases do you know of where people gauged out their own eyeballs because of their believe (as it is clearly written in the bible, if any christian looks at a women lustfully he already has commited sin and has to gauge out his own eyeball)

Now compare these 3 things to the islam and how many crimes are committed by radical muslims because of their faith? Again I could give you tons of examples, but I'm gonna let you do your own math here. If you can proof ANY of those things committed by christians then I would say you have a point, but now you are comparing apples with oranges.

A little bit off-topic here, but have you or Terastas ever seen the South Park episode about muslims? I don't know how the episode is called but your behaviour is strikingly simular to that in that episode, no offence. "No mosques?? Now the muslims are really gonna blow themselves up!"

[Terastas]

- How many cases do you know of where people killed their own family-members in name of god

Millions.

I see your South Park Muslim episode and raise you the Drawn Together "Veggie Fables" episode. That wasn't really a parody: There are plenty of self-proclaimed Christians out there who will argue that killing people before they have the chance to sin counts as "saving" them.

And no offense, but your arguments about "preserving European culture" are starting to remind me very much of the typical trailer-trash scumbag's desire to "preserve the white race." If European culture is one that judges the value of everyone and everything based solely on how European they are, maybe the Muslims aren't what's causing the "decline."

[Spongy]

[Terastas]

How dare you call our want to preserve our culture a desire to "preserve the white race"!!!

First of all, I didn't call it, I compared it. There's a difference.

And second, how dare you go out and claim that America has no culture or history.

You say "culture," but near as I can tell, what you're really trying to defend is just an ethnic identity. You just confirmed exactly what I was beginning to suspect: That this isn't about anti-Islamification so much as it's about bigoted Eurocentric narcissism (now you're holding America to fault for not being European too). All I've read from reading all of your posts about "preserving your culture" is that if I ever want to really learn anything about Swedish or Dutch culture, I need to ask a Swedish or Dutch American.

So no offense, but maybe you're having so much trouble "defending your culture" because there is no culture to be defended. Even after reading all of your (sometimes ridiculously long) rants, I only know two things about European culture: It's not Muslim, and you think it's better than everyone else's. How do you expect to defend what you can't even define?

So by all means, keep campaigning against Islam as a whole. If the rest of Europe is even so much as a fraction as ignorant, selfish and intolerant of others as the two of you have made yourselves out to be, you deserve exactly what will result from it. What that will be, I don't know, but whether it's Shariah law or a xenophobic idiocracy, you'll only have yourselves to blame.

[Grayheart]

We have something the United States doesn't have. WE have a culture. WE have a history. WE want to preserve it. WE don't want our politicians destroying what makes US proud of OUR COUNTRY.

Although I understand your harsh reaction to Terastas remark about 'preserving the white men' I cannot agree with this statement of yours. Every human society has a culture - and yes, that means also the USA have a culture, according to the officially definition used in cultural anthropology which is:

"The culture of a group consists of shared, socially learned knowledge and patterns of behaviour"

To deny the US a culture because of it's - in your eyes - short history is just silly and completely missing the point of the meaning of culture at all. My two pence ...

Edit:

@Terastas: No, not all of us 'europeans' are like that. Personally I agree with you and Silent Hunter about the matter. The only thing such medieaval behaviour and thinking will get us into is more and more violence and hate on both sites.

[Silent Hunter]

[Spongy]

I may have overreacted. Yes.

Fair enough. Based on your definition, the USA does have a culture.

Based on what I feel, no. It's a melting pot of different cultures, without one to call it's own.

[Morkulv]

And no offense, but your arguments about "preserving European culture" are starting to remind me very much of the typical trailer-trash scumbag's desire to "preserve the white race." If European culture is one that judges the value of everyone and everything based solely on how European they are, maybe the Muslims aren't what's causing the "decline."

I see, you ARE missing the point then.

[Terastas]

[Spongy]

This is getting so stupid I'm wondering why I'm bothering with this.


Most of that stuff WILL seem like "Total bull". Why? Because no one other than people like Morkulv and I will report it! IT STILL HAPPENS! If you're too signorant to think that because it's not in the US News that it doesn't happen, that's your fault!

The facts about Sweden are TRUE. I have sources. IN SWEDISH. You have no bloody choice but to take my word for it!

Then there's the fact that popular media, at least in Sweden, is turning a BLIND EYE to the violence. I'm not even f*** kidding! Only smaller newspapers will report the above! You will NOT find it because it's in SWEDISH.

I don't just throw out "BS". What am I thinking? I'm thinking I would say the TRUTH.

[Morkulv]

And no offense, but your arguments about "preserving European culture" are starting to remind me very much of the typical trailer-trash scumbag's desire to "preserve the white race." If European culture is one that judges the value of everyone and everything based solely on how European they are, maybe the Muslims aren't what's causing the "decline."

I see, you ARE missing the point then.

And what exactly was the point? Care to enlighten us, or were you seriously hoping none of us would notice that you never had any actual point to make to begin with.

You are NOT from Europe, and you are making wide and frankly silly assumptions.

Actually, since you say that I had no point to make, that confirms my previous post exactly; You THINK I have no point because you are simply missing it.