Swiss voters back ban on minarets

[Berserker]

Culture is many things, but it encompasses language, people, and value systems, which are interconnected. If you consider "Islam" in this particular scenario to be a culture and not merely a religion--and I think most people would, since Islam is integral to developing a way of life for its constituents--I'll use my own home town of Dalton, GA as an example of rampant cultural devastation.

When I grew up there in the 1980s, the Hispanic population was less than 10%. Now it is 40% and climbing. English-speaking businesses have been replaced with Spanish ones, and non-Hispanic Americans no longer feel welcome in those neighborhoods. Gang-related violent crime has skyrocketed, to the point where non-Hispanics no longer feel safe. Well-kept suburban neighborhoods turned into slums with 10+ people living under one roof. This will continue until Hispanics become the vast majority in Dalton, and eventually there will be no more mom-and-pop burger and pizza joints, Protestant churches, English schools with AP systems and football teams, local rock bands, neighborhoods with well-landscaped lawns where people leave their doors unlocked and aren't afraid to walk down the street at night. Language, religion, customs, cuisine, music, aesthetic, architecture, education. These are all examples of culture that was displaced when the Mexicans came to town. It isn't some racist crybaby fear, but a reality that has happened and will continue to happen all over the country. This is not racism, but an example of cold, hard truth.

The same with Islam. Even if the culture of one Dutch city was displaced by Muslim immigrants, that would be enough cause for concern.

[Grayheart]

I may have overreacted. Yes.

Fair enough. Based on your definition, the USA does have a culture.

Based on what I feel, no. It's a melting pot of different cultures, without one to call it's own.

And Europe isn't a melting pot of different cultures?! You talking about Europe and 'european' as if you could define it to the last bit of knowledge and behavioural pattern. Now let me ask: Is there a unified european culture? Personally I fairly doubt this. Personally I see myself as german, not european.

The US have an own culture, an own history and it's as valuable than every other culture and history in the world. If you want to prove me otherwise you'll have to come up with a validate definition about when 'real culture' begins.

[Spongy]

And no offense, but your arguments about "preserving European culture" are starting to remind me very much of the typical trailer-trash scumbag's desire to "preserve the white race." If European culture is one that judges the value of everyone and everything based solely on how European they are, maybe the Muslims aren't what's causing the "decline."

I see, you ARE missing the point then.

And what exactly was the point? Care to enlighten us, or were you seriously hoping none of us would notice that you never had any actual point to make to begin with.

You are NOT from Europe, and you are making wide and frankly silly assumptions.

Actually, since you say that I had no point to make, that confirms my previous post exactly; You THINK I have no point because you are simply missing it.

Seconded, really.

If you haven't been living in Europe, you really can't see what's going on.

[Spongy]

I may have overreacted. Yes.

Fair enough. Based on your definition, the USA does have a culture.

Based on what I feel, no. It's a melting pot of different cultures, without one to call it's own.

And Europe isn't a melting pot of different cultures?! You talking about Europe and 'european' as if you could define it to the last bit of knowledge and behavioural pattern. Now let me ask: Is there a unified european culture? Personally I fairly doubt this. Personally I see myself as german, not european.

The US have an own culture, an own history and it's as valuable than every other culture and history in the world. If you want to prove me otherwise you'll have to come up with a validate definition about when 'real culture' begins.

I probably should have made this clearer, but when I say "Europe" I mean all the different countries. Sweden, Denmark, The Netherlands, France, The UK, etc etc.

[Morkulv]

[Silent Hunter]

So you are basically saying you cannot argue over about somewhere you have never been to because you would not understand it? What bullshit, you can ask people who do live there, find real sources ,read blogs, read newsites and look at opinions written etc. By your logic, we cannot argue anything outside our areas because we don't know it like others do. Obviously we must only talk about things within out country.

[Morkulv]

In Europe's case YES. Europe is very diverse when it comes to different countries and different goverments and culture, so yes I do think that when you are talking about local matters you need to have some more knowledge then just Google. I'm also pretty sure that half of the stuff that happens over here is not being written in English on a global newssite as well, so its impossible to know everything that is going on. Claiming that you do is frankly being a little arrogant, hence why I commented on it.

[Terastas]

You are NOT from Europe, and you are making wide and frankly silly assumptions.

That was your point?! All this time you've been dismissing everything being said because we're not from Europe?!!

Crap, you're even more bigoted and narcissistic than even I originally took you to be. So that's it, huh? Only Europe has any problems and no filthy Muslim or stupid American could ever possibly understand them?

Muslim extremists crashed jets into two American skyscrapers -- trust me, we know a thing or two about fear and anti-Islamification. What we know that you apparently do not, however, is how to recognize a troublemaker from someone who is just a minority.

Here's a hint: The troublemakers are the ones MAKING TROUBLE!!!

That's the issue: it's your big fat Eurocentric ego encumbering your ability to tell the people who brought terrorism to your country from the people that are trying to get away from it. I know you're smart enough to know there's a difference, but if you accept the fact that not all Muslims are extremists, then you won't be able to hate them for being different too.

All Muslims are violent extremists? Yeah, tell that to the (ethnic) Muslim that Spongy's people just gave the Nobel Peace Prize to.

There's only one thing that you know that I as an American do not, and that's what it feels like to be a bigoted Euro-trash narcissist. And trust me, I'm not envious of that.

[Morkulv]

All Muslims are violent extremists? Yeah, tell that to the (ethnic) Muslim that Spongy's people just gave the Nobel Peace Prize to.

This just proves that you can't read for s***.

Also, props for overexagerating things yet AGAIN, although I honestly didn't expect anything different from you.

That last butthurt statement made me laugh though. At least I'm not the one restorting to childish insults.

Cheers,

[Spongy]

You are NOT from Europe, and you are making wide and frankly silly assumptions.

That was your point?! All this time you've been dismissing everything being said because we're not from Europe?!!

Crap, you're even more bigoted and narcissistic than even I originally took you to be. So that's it, huh? Only Europe has any problems and no filthy Muslim or stupid American could ever possibly understand them?

Muslim extremists crashed jets into two American skyscrapers -- trust me, we know a thing or two about fear and anti-Islamification. What we know that you apparently do not, however, is how to recognize a troublemaker from someone who is just a minority.

Here's a hint: The troublemakers are the ones MAKING TROUBLE!!!

That's the issue: it's your big fat Eurocentric ego encumbering your ability to tell the people who brought terrorism to your country from the people that are trying to get away from it. I know you're smart enough to know there's a difference, but if you accept the fact that not all Muslims are extremists, then you won't be able to hate them for being different too.

All Muslims are violent extremists? Yeah, tell that to the (ethnic) Muslim that Spongy's people just gave the Nobel Peace Prize to.

There's only one thing that you know that I as an American do not, and that's what it feels like to be a bigoted Euro-trash narcissist. And trust me, I'm not envious of that.

I don't know if it's even WORTH discussing this with you anymore.

You keep missing the point, over and over and over. Instead you turn our wish to preserve our countries into something negative because YOU CAN'T SEE WHAT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

[JoshuaMadoc]

At this rate the both of you are missing the point.

And I've only been to 4 european countries in the span of a few months...

[Morkulv]

At this rate the both of you are missing the point.

What point? That not all muslims are extremists? I've said before that I do not see every muslim as a terrorist, and I'm not gonna repeat myself 500 times here.

Anyone is free to interpret things as they want, but don't go and put words in my mouth. I find that to be very low.

Over here we have freedom of speech (which is also a part of the culture), something that people should be proud of. When we integrate islam into our culture, we would lose that freedom. Its as simple as that. Switserland has every right to protect itself from losing that, and I think they were very brave to go on with the ban seeing as many politicians are too worried about political-correctness to think about their own country.

[Lycanthrope]

Anyone is free to interpret things as they want, but don't go and put words in my mouth. I find that to be very low.

Do you realise that you're putting the words, that he's putting words in your mouth, in his mouth?
Hold it... *Rereads* Allright. Do carry on...

[Spongy]

When we integrate islam into our culture, we would lose that freedom. Its as simple as that. Switserland has every right to protect itself from losing that, and I think they were very brave to go on with the ban seeing as many politicians are too worried about political-correctness to think about their own country.

This, this, and this again.

[Lukas]

all the European guys here: BAWW islam taking over my country and no one understand anything

really guys, Europe been around for how long? i believe a good few thousand years. No need to worry about Islam taking over. also nice Europe Ego. it reminded me of a meme that popped up in some of the chans I visited
"well that just like, your opinion man."
EVERYONE HAS BIASED, EVERYONE. just because new came from Sweden doesn't mean it is correct, ever hear the phase "don't believe everything you read"? Quiet frankly spongy your talk has been one that rivals Extreme Right wing supporters in our country. Learn relax and stop freaking the f*** out. When you start seeing ak47s in the mosques then you can freak out. here is another thing I think that fits this entire debate since its already gone down the drain to insults and back and forth arguments.
"cool story bro"

personally I feel like Kitetsu on this matter, its just the same old extremist fight other extremist and they will destroy each other in the process.


Also for those who are worried about "displaced culture" guess what, life changes, things go and things pass on, you adapt and move on. that is life. I don't care about the Hispanic's right now running rampent in florida, i make friends with them and most of the ones i know make a effort to speak English. I used to live in poor areas and really I have no problems with displacement of culture. since I know the USA has ALWAYS been a place for changing cultures. e.g.: Mass Irsh immigration, you had the no-nothing party, mass German immigration: native party, etc. this s*** happens ALL THE TIME.

as Mark twain once said:
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhythm "

[Morkulv]

all the European guys here: BAWW islam taking over my country and no one understand anything

really guys, Europe been around for how long? i believe a good few thousand years. No need to worry about Islam taking over. also nice Europe Ego. it reminded me of a meme that popped up in some of the chans I visited
"well that just like, your opinion man."
EVERYONE HAS BIASED, EVERYONE. just because new came from Sweden doesn't mean it is correct, ever hear the phase "don't believe everything you read"? Quiet frankly spongy your talk has been one that rivals Extreme Right wing supporters in our country. Learn relax and stop freaking the f*** out. When you start seeing ak47s in the mosques then you can freak out. here is another thing I think that fits this entire debate since its already gone down the drain to insults and back and forth arguments.
"cool story bro"

personally I feel like Kitetsu on this matter, its just the same old extremist fight other extremist and they will destroy each other in the process.

I think Silent Hunter started BAWW-ing by opening this topic in the first place if you put it like that.

Uhmm... Nobody freaked out, it was mostly Terastas putting what we said in a bad light, that is all. Some people seem to have a problem with seperating pride from facism.

I posted argument after argument from page 1 and I still haven't seen a good reply to either one of them yet. Why? Probably the same reason why the majority of politicians over here ignore the problem; to put their head in the sand.

[Lukas]

all the European guys here: BAWW islam taking over my country and no one understand anything

really guys, Europe been around for how long? i believe a good few thousand years. No need to worry about Islam taking over. also nice Europe Ego. it reminded me of a meme that popped up in some of the chans I visited
"well that just like, your opinion man."
EVERYONE HAS BIASED, EVERYONE. just because new came from Sweden doesn't mean it is correct, ever hear the phase "don't believe everything you read"? Quiet frankly spongy your talk has been one that rivals Extreme Right wing supporters in our country. Learn relax and stop freaking the f*** out. When you start seeing ak47s in the mosques then you can freak out. here is another thing I think that fits this entire debate since its already gone down the drain to insults and back and forth arguments.
"cool story bro"

personally I feel like Kitetsu on this matter, its just the same old extremist fight other extremist and they will destroy each other in the process.

Uhmm... Nobody freaked out, it was mostly Terastas putting what we said in a bad light, that is all. Some people seem to have a problem with seperating pride from facism.

I posted argument after argument from page 1 and I still haven't seen a good reply to either one of them yet. Why? Probably the same reason why the majority of politicians over here ignore the problem; to put their head in the sand.

apologies Morkulv i was mostly beefing with spongy, your concern is a bit big but his is out of the rector scale.

[Terastas]

What point? That not all muslims are extremists? I've said before that I do not see every muslim as a terrorist, and I'm not gonna repeat myself 500 times here.

You have said that, but then you follow it up by addressing Islam as a whole as the problem again. S.H. and I keep "missing your point" because you apparently can't decide what the hell your point is supposed to be.

Over here we have freedom of speech (which is also a part of the culture), something that people should be proud of. When we integrate islam into our culture, we would lose that freedom. Its as simple as that.

Actually, you just overcomplicated freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is when the radical Muslims have every right to try and cram his religion on other people, and the other people have the right to tell him where they think he should stick his religion.

In that sense, Islam and freedom of speech are compatible. But only for moderate Muslims that never had any intent of cramming their religion on other people in the first place.

It's only a difficult concept if it's counterproductive to your agenda (or in your case, your ego). And in regards to your culture: If you've got something you'd like to share about it, be my guest. You talk big and talk frequently about culture, but I'm still not seeing anything except a klootzak and a rvvhel that think everything about them (including their arguments) are just naturally better because they're European.

Three pages of this crap and the only thing I've learned is that Switzerland sucks and the two of you are European. I frankly feel that the only cultures worth preserving are the ones that don't require any effort to do so (and require no defense because foreigners will often admire and emulate it), but if you really feel that Dutch and/or Swedish culture is vastly superior to all the others, don't hesitate to explain why you feel that way.

[Morkulv]

What point? That not all muslims are extremists? I've said before that I do not see every muslim as a terrorist, and I'm not gonna repeat myself 500 times here.

You have said that, but then you follow it up by addressing Islam as a whole as the problem again. S.H. and I keep "missing your point" because you apparently can't decide what the hell your point is supposed to be.

Over here we have freedom of speech (which is also a part of the culture), something that people should be proud of. When we integrate islam into our culture, we would lose that freedom. Its as simple as that.

Actually, you just overcomplicated freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is when the radical Muslims have every right to try and cram his religion on other people, and the other people have the right to tell him where they think he should stick his religion.

In that sense, Islam and freedom of speech are compatible. But only for moderate Muslims that never had any intent of cramming their religion on other people in the first place.

It's only a difficult concept if it's counterproductive to your agenda (or in your case, your ego). And in regards to your culture: If you've got something you'd like to share about it, be my guest. You talk big and talk frequently about culture, but I'm still not seeing anything except a klootzak and a rvvhel that think everything about them (including their arguments) are just naturally better because they're European.

Three pages of this crap and the only thing I've learned is that Switzerland sucks and the two of you are European. I frankly feel that the only cultures worth preserving are the ones that don't require any effort to do so (and require no defense because foreigners will often admire and emulate it), but if you really feel that Dutch and/or Swedish culture is vastly superior to all the others, don't hesitate to explain why you feel that way.

The only thing I've learned from this topic is that you are a sore loser, and instead of spending time on making arguments without repeating yourself you resort to silly and childish insults.

Islam and free speech are not compatible, islam is compatible with spreading. You do not have the right to say something you want about the islam according to islam itself, so it is very incompatible with free speech. Please, by all means go to Iraq, say something about Allah and have your head chopped off, that way you can at least see my point here.

Sukkel.

In regard to my culture, I'd rather not share that kind of thing with somebody who's arguments only exist of immature remarks.

[Silent Hunter]

I think Silent Hunter started BAWW-ing by opening this topic in the first place if you put it like that.

.
How is that bawwing? I just brought an issue up for discussion and was hoping to get something out of it.

Also just because someone is using insults does not mean their points are less valid. Sorry but that's the reality of it. If they are just using insults and not really backing anything up, then, well yeah they are invalid as hell and the person is blindly flaming.

However all you seem to be doing is just proclaiming that people cannot understand the situation out of Europe/Are missing the point etc. I have not even seen any Proof for those "FACTS" yet.


I

slam and free speech are not compatible, islam is compatible with spreading. You do not have the right to say something you want about the islam according to islam itself, so it is very incompatible with free speech. Please, by all means go to Iraq, say something about Allah and have your head chopped off, that way you can at least see my point here.

Oh lol, a religious therocracy that was torn down in a pointless war making it even more of a s***. Hmmn I wonder why that place could be so rotten.

Come on Mov, we most Muslims in Europe are pretty well behaved. As said the crazies are often heard the most because they make news stories and shout the loudest giving the illusion that all Muslims are like that when most in Europe are not.

[Spongy]

*sighs*

You're all so thick-headed, I don't know what else I could possibly come with that wouldn't end up being twisted into nazism or fascism.

[Set]

I have not even seen any Proof for those "FACTS" yet.

*sigh* I have to all the work, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/09/sw ... crime.html

Pages, translated:

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... auto&tl=en

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... auto&tl=en

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... auto&tl=en

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... auto&tl=en

The rest have to have the text copy-pasted as it wouldn't do the entire page. You people can do that yourself. http://translate.google.com

[Spongy]

I have not even seen any Proof for those "FACTS" yet.

*sigh* I have to all the work, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/09/sw ... crime.html

Pages, translated:

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... auto&tl=en

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... auto&tl=en

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... auto&tl=en

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... auto&tl=en

The rest have to have the text copy-pasted as it wouldn't do the entire page. You people can do that yourself. http://translate.google.com

It wasn't my intentions for you to have to do that. I simply don't see his posts since he's on my foe list.

However I should warn, for those who click those inks, that Expressen and Aftonbladet are very much red, and are known for bending the facts so that they fit their likings.

[Uniform Two Six]

Muslim extremists crashed jets into two American skyscrapers -- trust me, we know a thing or two about fear and anti-Islamification.

Beat me to it, so...

FACT: In Sweden, Ambulances DO NOT enter Muslim areas WITHOUT police protection.

So? There's lots of places here in the States where ambulance crews won't go without a police escort. I'll bet you we've got a lot more such neighborhoods over here than you have in Sweden. Every European person and their dog likes to make fun of how high our crime rate is compared to the much more civilized European nations, but all of a sudden we don't know a thing about violent crime? Really?


And another thing: Here in California we've got this little "problem" of Mexican immigrants illegally coming over the border to pick our crops and do all kinds of hideous manual labor for wages that can only be described as criminal (referring to the employers, that is). I quote "problem" because it's a big "problem" until somebody proposes actually solving it in various ways, and then big companies (who stand to lose billions if they actually were required to obey the labor laws) get involved in lobbying certain key government officials to deep-six such plans. We've got an enormous drug cartel war spilling across the border. The bad guys are shooting up police checkpoints with assault rifles. Last year we had a California Highway Patrol helicopter shot down in the Mojave Desert north of Barstow.

We don't know anything about Europe? Fine. We probably don't, but give us a break with the Americans-don't-know-anything attitude.

[Spongy]

Muslim extremists crashed jets into two American skyscrapers -- trust me, we know a thing or two about fear and anti-Islamification.

Beat me to it, so...

FACT: In Sweden, Ambulances DO NOT enter Muslim areas WITHOUT police protection.

So? There's lots of places here in the States where ambulance crews won't go without a police escort. I'll bet you we've got a lot more such neighborhoods over here than you have in Sweden. Every European person and their dog likes to make fun of how high our crime rate is compared to the much more civilized European nations, but all of a sudden we don't know a thing about violent crime? Really?

Did I ever say you didn't know a thing about violent crime? No.

However, the violent crime spike is something new to Sweden over the last few decades. (Or even just the last one.)


...Gods I'm sick of defending myself now.