Respect towards atheists

[Set]

This thread has been dragged so far off topic it's ridiculous. I thought this topic was about people lacking respect for other people, not Christianity.

[JoshuaMadoc]

My question then is why be a Muslim at all, if you don't want to adhere to its tenets? I know that in Indonesia you ultimately wouldn't have much a choice in the matter, or if you did make a choice to not practice, it could be rather nasty for you, but if you are now in a country where you have more options, why not choose something different... or nothing at all. I say the same thing to a "Christian" who doesn't believe the Bible. There is no point in being a Christian if you don't believe. Just a suggestion.

I was born muslim and intend to stay a muslim by choice of identity. That way, when, for example, I'm friends with a jewish person, the both of us would make a good contrasting pair. Besides, where have you seen a male muslim be so despaired by how other muslim males treat their women, LGBTs, etc. that it brings shame to be born a male to begin with?

Also, one tenet I'm still following very faithfully is aversion to pork products. This is purely because I don't see the point in angsting about religion prohibiting the taste of pork, when I still have chicken, beef, lamb, and other meats I can eat. I may have made envious remarks about people eating pork, but that's all there is to it.

[Morkulv]

This thread has been dragged so far off topic it's ridiculous. I thought this topic was about people lacking respect for other people, not Christianity.

Yeah, it did get kinda offtopic although its still on the topic of religion. I'm glad that we can have this discussion without bashing eachother's skulls in though, because I do think religion is a very interesting topic. Especially considering that we have people from all sorts of beliefsystems on this forum; agnostics, atheists, christians, and a muslim.

[alphanubilus]

I was born muslim and intend to stay a muslim by choice of identity. That way, when, for example, I'm friends with a jewish person, the both of us would make a good contrasting pair. Besides, where have you seen a male muslim be so despaired by how other muslim males treat their women, LGBTs, etc. that it brings shame to be born a male to begin with?

Also, one tenet I'm still following very faithfully is aversion to pork products. This is purely because I don't see the point in angsting about religion prohibiting the taste of pork, when I still have chicken, beef, lamb, and other meats I can eat. I may have made envious remarks about people eating pork, but that's all there is to it.

Actually I am friends with several Muslims, most of whom are a part of a more progressive variant of Islam. The ones who left Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, left because of the county's brutal treatment of women, as well as their uber strict code of conduct, of which had gotten to the point of rediculous. So the reality is, you are not alone at all. It is really sad that Muslims get the bad rap, when in actuality most do believe as you do, but are either afraid to step forward, due to persecution within their own countries, or are overlooked because of the Osama bin Laden's of the world.

Very few non-Arabs understand that you can embrace Islam, without being an extremist terror thug. My Grandparents lived in Pakistan for over 12 1/2 years. My Grandfather speaks Urdo (the language) fluently. Even though we are devout Christians, we have very close Muslim friends, of which shows, that despite our differences, we all can get along great.

Salam alaikum...

[RedEye]

Kitetsu, as a lifelong Pork-eater, I can say this: You ain't missed anything.

Both Judaism and Islam prohibit pork as a food-source. I can think of several reasons. For one, Pork is alleged to taste like human flesh. For another, Pork goes bad faster than just about any other meat in a hot climate (ptomaine is not at all fun-been there).

And as you point out, you can eat lots of other kinds of meat; so don't be envious. All you're missing it the cholesterol.

[Terastas]

This thread has been dragged so far off topic it's ridiculous. I thought this topic was about people lacking respect for other people, not Christianity.

About lacking respect for atheists, specifically. Though if you want my honest assessment (yeah, I know, nobody does but I'll give it anyway), the fact that it actually dragged on this long only suffices to confirm one of my earlier assessments: that atheism is often disrespected because a lot of people use atheism as a platform from which to bash organized religion.

That's what truly kills me about this thread: As far as I can tell, nobody in this thread was directly critical of atheism. However, a few choice individuals chose to take offense at the suggestion that atheism could qualify as a system of religion. That's where a lot of the drama in this thread came from; not disrespect for atheism, but from a couple of atheists treating "religion" like a dirty word.

[Morkulv]

I'm not taking offence of the word religion, and I never was. This is something that only you seem to think.

I don't care what you call atheism, as long as you understand why atheists do not view their believes as a religion. If you believe it is a religion, then fine, but stop pushing it around.

Now you think I'm bashing religion as well as an atheist? How is that? Because I QUESTION religion? If so, then the ammount of people bashing atheism is going skyhigh.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Kitetsu, as a lifelong Pork-eater, I can say this: You ain't missed anything.

Both Judaism and Islam prohibit pork as a food-source. I can think of several reasons. For one, Pork is alleged to taste like human flesh. For another, Pork goes bad faster than just about any other meat in a hot climate (ptomaine is not at all fun-been there).

And as you point out, you can eat lots of other kinds of meat; so don't be envious. All you're missing it the cholesterol.

That... and cook pork improperly and whoever you're serving pork to will be totally boned.

And on that note, I absolutely can't stand chinese shops that only makes either pork buns, taro buns and custard buns. They never bother making chicken, lamb or beef buns save for a scant few stores and yamcha restaurants, and that just irritates me.

</offtopic>

[Terastas]

Now you think I'm bashing religion as well as an atheist?

Well, this whole thread started with you stating that most of your anti-atheist crap comes from "mostly religious people who can't take the fact that I critisize their religion."

But no, I never explicitly called you either (although you've pretty much confirmed both for yourself). I just noted that you seemed to get a serious bug up your a** as soon as we started referring to atheism as a religion.

For someone that claims not to be taking offense at atheism being called a religion, you certainly have devoted a lot of time and effort trying to convince us that atheism is not a religion.

[RedEye]

Kitetsu, as a lifelong Pork-eater, I can say this: You ain't missed anything.

Both Judaism and Islam prohibit pork as a food-source. I can think of several reasons. For one, Pork is alleged to taste like human flesh. For another, Pork goes bad faster than just about any other meat in a hot climate (ptomaine is not at all fun-been there).

And as you point out, you can eat lots of other kinds of meat; so don't be envious. All you're missing it the cholesterol.

That... and cook pork improperly and whoever you're serving pork to will be totally boned.

And on that note, I absolutely can't stand chinese shops that only makes either pork buns, taro buns and custard buns. They never bother making chicken, lamb or beef buns save for a scant few stores and yamcha restaurants, and that just irritates me.

</offtopic>

That's usually because pork is cheap and will keep in a bun on a steam-table, while beef or chicken or lamb...etc. will mummify. I've eaten the latter; as in eat the bun and spit out the dried out thing in the middle.
I've run across another thing that might have made pork a no-no in certain religions: Pigs will eat S*it (Human s*it) and do well on it. Suddenly, I don't want to eat pigmeat any more, either...
Eeeeeeeeeeew...

[Howlitzer]

Being an avid fan of bacon....yay for pork.

And yay for the genetic unlikelihood that this will cause me problems no matter how hard I try.

Albeit, I can certainly see why some people don't like it.

[Morkulv]

[Howlitzer]

[Morkulv]

[Gevaudan]

You can be an atheist and be religious. Some if not most Buddhists do not support the existence of God, and yet they believe in the existence of the supernatural realm of nirvana. Shouldn't it then be possible to be an atheist and not be religious?

[Terastas]

You can be an atheist and be religious. Some if not most Buddhists do not support the existence of God, and yet they believe in the existence of the supernatural realm of nirvana. Shouldn't it then be possible to be an atheist and not be religious?

That was a comparison I made earlier to illustrate that an existence in God is not the one and only defining factor of what constitutes a religion. Buddhism has been corrupted in some cultures to have Buddha as the God figure (such as the "Fat Buddha" and the "Laughing Buddha"), but true Buddhism in its practiced form does not have a God figure. Other traditions, particularly those focused around ancestral worship or nature do not have a God figure either. Simply not believing in an almighty overseer does not automatically make one an atheist.

Atheism, on the other hand, is a system of belief that not only denies the existence of a higher power, but also the existence of karma, life after death, or any sort of moral code apart from "might makes right" or "majority rule." In this regard, atheism differs from Buddhism etc.

And to correct Morkulv, agnostics do not disbelieve in God by default. We may or may not personally believe in God, but we recognize our limitations as human beings and recognize that, regardless of which side of "the God debate" we are on, simply having faith in something will not make something true. It's possible to be a Christian and yet also be agnostic. Agnosticism isn't about defining the unknown, it's about accepting it.

[Morkulv]

[Terastas]

[Gevaudan]

Terastas, although I agree with your statements on the difference between atheism and agnosticism (atheism deals with belief, and agnosticism deals with knowledge), could you clarify what you mean by this:

Atheism, on the other hand, is a system of belief that not only denies the existence of a higher power, but also the existence of karma, life after death, or any sort of moral code apart from "might makes right" or "majority rule."

Are you saying that atheists by default believe in majority rule and "might makes right," or I am mistaken?
Also, how can atheism be a "system of belief" if it's not defined by any dogma, commandments, holy books, rituals, or rules other than saying "No" to the question "Do you believe in God?" I think atheism is better defined as a position that one takes rather than an entire system.

[Morkulv]

[alphanubilus]

The reality is, no matter what people say, "Atheism" is, at its core, a religious point of view. Atheism can be traced all the way back to 6th century BCE Humanists movement. Humanists, so you know, were a group of Greek philosiphers, of whom rejected any notion of the divine, and believed that man, himself, was the sole arbitor of his well. In short man was the center of the "universe" and not a god, goddess, or any other deity. Now through out history there have been a number of off-beat "humanist" groups, but the central concept is "MAN" first.

Atheists do not believe in the existence of God, gods, goddesses, or anything of the divine nature. This is, without, question a religious belief, and no matter what you think, it will always automatically become a religious belief, due to the inherent nature of the arguement, as it ascertains to religion.

Atheists do have a creed, per say. A. There is no god. B. Man is the sole arbitor of his destiny (man is god). C. Morality is relative and subjective.

For Atheists to continuously argue that they aren't indeed a religion, that arguement in itself is becoming harder to defend, as you do have a literal organized hub. There are Atheist support groups. Atheist rights groups, such as the "Freedom From Religion Organization". There are pro-Atheist tracks. Atheist missionaries (they mostly reside in biology classes... ... that of course is a joke). In the UK, you can even find Buses with pro-Atheist slogans.

So to say that Atheism is NOT a religion, is to blind yourself to what is going on.

Now, the reality is, there may be atheists, who are treading along the lines of Agnostism, and while they don't believe in a god or whot-knot, they really don't have any real convictions either way. They really don't follow any one set creed. Most atheists that I've met follow along these lines. In short, they don't go out of their way to push their ideals on anyone, as long as those don't push their ideals on them. In short they are atheists, but not as religiously atheist as some of the more notorious types.

[Wingman]

I suppose I shall dip my feet into this here pie.
Personally I find it to be almost intolerable when, for whatever reason, I tell someone I'm an atheist and their reaction is to try and fill this 'void' in my soul with their religion. My mother I will tolderate it from, since I was actually raised as a rather serious LDS and I can understand her believing that I have 'gone astray' (One of my mom's favored anecdotes about me is how, back in the day, the sunday school teacher/whatnot was doing attendance, mentioned a kid named 'Daniel' and I started reciting that entire section of the bible. And today I can't remember a word of it. Not a word.)
Really, why don't they understand that it's possible to have a belief system without having a users manual for it? It's entirely possible to be a productive, moral, member of society without going to church even infrequently. My moral compass happens to compose largely of what I don't want to happen to me, ergo I don't do it to other people so the karma plushie dolls that live in the space between atoms will not smite me. I don't try to be 'good' because my guidebook says so, I do it because people are petty, vindictive, jerks and I'm too lazy to deal with them. Much easier to smile, nod, and ignore them. Somehow that's earned me a reputation as a nice guy.

To chime in on alphanubilus' theme, science is a religion just as much as anything else. The only difference is that its rituals and ceremonies are (no longer) labled magic.

[Howlitzer]

@morkluv: get your head out of your arse.

You made this thread complaining about a lack of respect for Atheists, people were largely respectful, even Terastas while he was voicing his own personal gripes with some atheists.

Suggesting Atheism is a religious stance is NOT AN INSULT TO ATHEISM... it's merely a hard fact when you get down to the nature of such viewpoints.

Atheism is a religious view. Agnosticism is a religious view....both just as much as Christianity is a religious view. Does this diminish their validity? NO. Unless you're claiming Atheism is some high-and-mighty "correct" stance... which it is NOT, it's an opinion regarding abstract concepts and theoretical beings that we cannot see or prove.

If you want your view respected, respect other people's views and respect that your view on this matter is no more valid than theirs. Quibbling over this is idiotic.

[Chris]

Atheists do not believe in the existence of God, gods, goddesses, or anything of the divine nature. This is, without, question a religious belief

Okay, I'll have another go. Merriam-Webster...
Religious:
1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>
2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances <joined a religious order>
3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful b : fervent, zealous

It's always kind of odd when a definition of a word uses that very word to describe it. But the core here seems to be devotion and faith.
Now...
Faith:
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

Allegiance, trust, firm belief without proof, etc. And, as established earlier...
Atheism:
1 archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

So, as we can see, atheism is not a faith because it does not have to be with strong conviction, loyalty, firm belief, or anything like that. You don't believe in any deity, and you're an atheist, regardless of how strong your trust in such a belief is (indeed, you can have no trust in a belief of no deities; but without an actual belief in a deity, you're still an atheist). And without faith, it can't be a religious belief. Atheism is a belief, sure, but belief is not the same as faith, and without faith, it is not religious. Ergo, atheism is not a religion.

[Howlitzer]

You overlooked a rather important chunk of the definition there. By Webster itself as you cited, faith is also a firm belief for something for which there is no proof.

Atheism does not provide proof that their is no higher power, but people with this viewpoint certainly hold this belief firmly more often than not.

By that definition, as they hold this belief without proof....in that case, it is faith. Faith comes in varying degrees, as does the level of faith any person has in their view...whether they are an atheist, agnostic, buddhist, christian...whatever. They are all religious viewpoints regardless of intensity.

Gauging what is faith and what is not by level of intensity is fuzzy, bullshit logic at BEST...it's a subjective assessment of the matter.

Also....hello people? Wake up and smell the pointless argument here.

Atheism is a belief concerning religion, it pertains to religion, the topic of religion, and deals with the questions religions deal with. ATHEISM IS A BELIEF PERTAINING TO RELIGION. Thus, it is a religious belief. This DOESN'T diminish Atheism in any way, shape, or form.....so unless the Atheists are insulted by the prospect that they aren't something logically "better"... why are we arguing about this?! SERIOUSLY?!

This topic was about respect towards Atheists....not about conceding that Atheism is inherently above a "religious" belief. Atheism is a religious belief, deserving of as much respect as any other religious belief. Get over it. Get over yourselves. Please.