Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

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Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Sebiale »

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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Terastas »

I appreciate that Stewart is going out of his way to try to keep this a non-party rally and how he is deliberately catering towards the middle/independent, but I hope he isn't really dumb enough to believe that he can keep this from being a leftist rally.

The reasons why are evident right there in the comments section of that very article. Republicans have a tendency to define "fair and balanced" as agreeing with, and supporting, the G.O.P. 100%, and anyone that does not support the G.O.P. 100% as being a part of the "liberal puppet media." There's no such thing as middle ground, independent, or even bipartisan issues, in the eyes of the 21st century conservatives anymore -- you're either 100% with them, or you're against them.

Therefore, because John Stewart does not support the Far Right Reich of Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin, he is the enemy of the American conservative.

The other big misconception Stewart is making is that, contrary to what Beck and Palin say every bloody day, there are no "liberal fanatics." The two groups are actually liberal moderates, and anti-Republicans (like myself), who are not so much devoted to keeping the Democrats in office as they are to keeping the Republicans out of office. Like the 21st century psycho-conservative, the anti-Republicans were born in the 21st century: They are the people who watched in horror as Bush and Cheney completely squandered the nation and made no apology about it.

Stewart appeals to both of these groups, the moderates because they are tired of politics, and the anti-Republicans because Stewart has already earned the ire of the Republicans.

I have a feeling it'll be disappointing, both because Stewart is trying to appeal to people who, in fairness, are more likely to think of something else they could be doing with their time, and because the right has become so psychotic that he's only going to attract leftists no matter what he does.

It's my hope, however, that Stewart will learn from this experience.

What he should learn from it is the difference between the two parties. When Democrats lose control of the government, they come together and ask what they did wrong, take a second look at their ideals, make an effort to appeal to more Americans, and comes back stronger. When Republicans lose control of the government, on the other hand, they throw tantrums, fight, point fingers at each other, and finally finish it off by kicking out all the Republicans that were "not conservative enough," and the party gets smaller.

The conservatives in this country have actually reached a point, in fact, where Stephen Colbert, the parody of the conservative media personality, is actually more left-leaning than the real thing. That's pretty scary.

In that sense, yesterday's moderate Republicans have become today's blue dog Democrats. Hopefully Stewart will figure that out when he sees the rally and will stop trying to play middle man in the future.
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Sebiale »

Terastas wrote: Hopefully Stewart will figure that out when he sees the rally and will stop trying to play middle man in the future.
What's wrong with trying to play the middle-man?

I don't recall Steward saying this was a rally against extremists groups, just extremist behavior. Just because you can present groups whose labels and behaviors aren't necessarily extremist as a whole doesn't mean they don't have extremists in those groups. There are plenty of zealots on all sides involved.
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Terastas »

Sebiale wrote:
Terastas wrote: Hopefully Stewart will figure that out when he sees the rally and will stop trying to play middle man in the future.
What's wrong with trying to play the middle-man?
Only the fact that you can't anymore.

Like I said, Stewart can't play neutral in the feud between left and right because one side has reached the point of referring to neutrals / middle-men as being in league with the other side. Because he does not support the right 100%, the right regards him as if he were 100% with the left.

Neutral implies having no standing with either side, so when neutrality makes you the enemy of one (and only one) side, it effectively becomes impossible to be neutral anymore. The closest thing to neutrality Stewart can shoot for is to be a punching bag for the right and not respond to any of their jabs at him (which, as a comedian, he could never do).
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Sebiale »

In one sense I think you're right. True neutrality would usually imply that you are seen as separate from all sides in a conflict, so if a side in a conflict doesn't, and treats them as part of the other side, you could say they haven't managed to stay neutral. (I'm getting Gundam SEED flashbacks right now...)
But...just because you haven't managed to stay neutral doesn't mean that a person can't see themselves as neutral. It's a matter of where you're standing.
Also, I don't believe ceasing to attempt to be neutral would help the situation.
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Scott Gardener »

But, I do hope that this gives moderates and intelligence against fanaticism some much-needed publicity, regardless of whether or not neutrality is pretense.
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by RedEye »

He's going to have a job ahead of him: The Republicans have been taken over by the Extreme Right and the Democrats are the tools of the Extreme Left.
He's gonna get slammed from both sides, and hard!

Mind you, within both parties are pretty decent people who simply want to serve their nation...but they are getting fewer and fewer in number as the "True Believers" take over.

This is going to be interesting; no two ways about it.
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Terastas »

RedEye wrote:He's going to have a job ahead of him: The Republicans have been taken over by the Extreme Right and the Democrats are the tools of the Extreme Left.
He's gonna get slammed from both sides, and hard!
You're half-right. The extreme righties took the first swing, which the extreme lefties (or the closest equivalents to one) are responding to that by lining up behind Stewart (which is bad for Stewart because he didn't want either side backing him).

Something you also need to keep in mind is that those extreme far-right Republicans define themselves as independents and refer to everyone to the left of them as extreme leftists. Just being liberal at all meets their definition of fanaticism. If Christine O'Donnell is your idea of what a middle-of-the-aisle American should look like, everyone is going to look like a liberal extremist by comparison.

And FYI, Christine O'Donnell is their idea of a middle-aisle American. She's against masturbation, against evolution and against women being allowed to serve in the armed forces, but her campaign ad states "I'm not a witch. I'm you."

That's what Stewart is going to find out at his "Restore Sanity" rally. Right now he thinks there's insanity on both sides of the aisle, but he's going to find out soon enough that 90% of the lunacy on the left was imagined and conjured up by the loonies on the right.
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Uniform Two Six »

Terastas wrote: That's what Stewart is going to find out at his "Restore Sanity" rally. Right now he thinks there's insanity on both sides of the aisle, but he's going to find out soon enough that 90% of the lunacy on the left was imagined and conjured up by the loonies on the right.
Eh. Give Stewart some credit. He knows where the lion's share of the stupidity is coming from. He knows that there's no real equivalent to Fox News out there. I think his point is that there needs to be a willingness on all sides to start acknowledging that compromise is what makes our system work, and this pandering to the base bullsh** is where we're getting fouled up.
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Terastas »

Uniform Two Six wrote: He knows that there's no real equivalent to Fox News out there.
The closest equivalent would be MSNBC, which became more left-leaning in response to FOX News's blatant party favoritism, and even then is more anti-conservative than liberal.

I know Stewart isn't stupid, but I worry that he's making the same mistake Obama made. Obama knew damn well that the Republicans had no intention of cooperating or listening to reason while he and Hillary will still campaigning to get the DNC nomination (Operation Chaos anyone?), but he extended the olive branch to them for no reason other than so he could say that he had done so, and kept it extended to them for well over a year before he finally made it clear that he was done playing nice with them (and by then, of course, the damage had already been done).

Stewart should know by now that the crazies all belong to one party (especially since the right scared a lot of sane people off to the left), but he's effectively doing the same thing by stating that there is craziness on both sides anyway. Like Obama, Stewart is trying to be all-inclusive for no reason other than so he can say he tried to be, but just like with Obama, it's liable to backfire on him.
Last edited by Terastas on Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Uniform Two Six »

Terastas wrote: Stewart should know by now that the crazies all belong to one party
Well, I don't know about that. Although I can't think of any specific quotes off the top of my head, but the last dozen or so times that Nancy Pelosi opened her mouth, I remember thinking "She knows there's an open microphone and a news camera on her, right?". Then there's the representative who had a mysterious $25,000 in a frozen block of ice in his freezer. Now, admittedly there's clearly no real liklihood that the GOP will ever break out the peace-pipe with the Democrats, but you've got to make the effort. We've got too many serious problems to keep wasting this much energy in political battles (like the 4.5 billion dollars being spent on political advertising thus far this year). We have to find some compromise somehow.
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by RedEye »

Compromise would be a good thing, but as you pointed out, $4.5 billion is not compromise money. The people who paid are going to want some value for their hard donated dollars, and they won't take "It's not good for the country" as an answer.
We've turned the Presidency into what is essentially a beauty contest; competence is invented and positions are fine-tuned to attract the most votes without regard for what's really needed or what the candidate is capable of doing.
Maybe we're headed down the same road that Rome took when it became the tool of one person and the republic became more a slogan than anything else. Once the words "Senatus Populesque Romanorum" meant something. The Senate and the People of Rome... Then it became a motto used by the Emperors for whatever they wanted. Then it just disappeared and the Emperor's name became most important.
I wonder how much longer "E Pluribus Unum" will last...and what will replace it.
And I wonder if Colbert and Stewart can really make a difference other than as a distraction...
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

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RedEye wrote:Compromise would be a good thing, but as you pointed out, $4.5 billion is not compromise money.
I still think there's something to be said for the fact that the people spending that kind of money would not do so unless they believed that the expenditure would have some sort of payoff. In other words, they are banking on us collectively behaving like a bunch of idiots and doing whatever a bunch of asinine political ads tell us to do. If they happen to be correct in that assumption, then who's fault is that?
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by FoxKnight »

I'm surprised how people feel about this topic so strongly about politics and Republicans especially, though a lot is true. I blame both sides and know very well that there are extremists of everything. Bush and Obama both have little respect from me. I may be conservative but so is most of the country, not Republican but conservative. I don't watch the Colbert Report so I can't speak ill of him but I did miss the rally mainly because I didn't have transportation. That and I woke up too late today xD

My parents are much more conservative than I am so they wouldn't let me go even if I wanted to. I do not believe the right wing or left wing are as evil as people are making them out to be. Sure the extremists are the only ones who get attention but that's for every group. I hope one day the American people can put aside the labels for everything and focus on what is actually important, like what they actually believe and try to do what is best for their country.

I'd say I'm a Federalist :3
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Uniform Two Six »

FoxKnight wrote: I hope one day the American people can put aside the labels for everything and focus on what is actually important, like what they actually believe and try to do what is best for their country.
Such as? That's a pretty wide and obscure statement. What specific things need doing, which are not being done right now?
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by FoxKnight »

Sorry, I was in a rush at the time.

We tend to argue a lot over who is to blame than actualy finding solutions. I say the government spending is the one issue that people would agree as a major problem. But as as far as other current problems go: our foreign policy, alternative energy, and racism (which shouldn't even be that big of a deal). What we should focus on are preparing for our future, economy-wise, so we won't have never ending debt, fixing our educational system, and fixing our healthcare system. Instead, we're debating over who will be at, (or was at, now), Colbert's rally and which political party is causing the previously mentioned problems like how people blame Bush for the economy and the war against terrorism. (These are just a few of the many other issues I'm not aware of or want to add)
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Uniform Two Six »

FoxKnight wrote:We tend to argue a lot over who is to blame than actualy finding solutions. I say the government spending is the one issue that people would agree as a major problem... What we should focus on are preparing for our future, economy-wise, so we won't have never ending debt, fixing our educational system, and fixing our healthcare system.
Well, where I was going was more to point out that much of the argument that leads to these fights between the parties/ factions (like the Tea Party), etc. stems from the problem that there isn't consensus on these issues. Not to be argumentative, but your post sort of sums up that point. You don't like government spending (think it's excessive, leads to too much debt... what have you), but in the very same sentence you also complain about fixing education and healthcare as national imperatives. Now, I may happen to agree with you on the importance of these issues and that they are becoming or already have become critical, but education and healthcare are both very expensive. If you really want to reduce deficit spending, you can increase taxes, or decrease services (like education and healthcare). The biggest fights are over money, and the idea that the Government will get involved in the provision of any level of healthcare is a radioactive topic simply because it will necessitate tax increases (or greater debt).
FoxKnight wrote:But as as far as other current problems go: our foreign policy, alternative energy, and racism (which shouldn't even be that big of a deal).
What should we be doing with our foriegn policy? What should we be doing with alternative energy (and remember, that answer should probably involve discussion on whose going to pay for it. What should we be doing on racism (for that matter, how do you do anything about it?).
FoxKnight wrote: Instead, we're debating over who will be at, (or was at, now), Colbert's rally and which political party is causing the previously mentioned problems like how people blame Bush for the economy and the war against terrorism. (These are just a few of the many other issues I'm not aware of or want to add)
Alot of that is people really saying "Wow, that really sucked. Let's not do that again." or "Look at how badly that went". The big issue along those lines in my opinion is that there is a tendency for people to get locked into a political ideology and sort of put blinders on when it comes to acnowledging that maybe they need to alter their worldview just a smidge. Some people have a really hard time doing even that superficial level of critical thinking. At that point you have massive friction with people who are viewing things from a more pragmatic point of view and don't really get why this other group is so resistant to admitting that maybe invading Afghanistan or Iraq (or deregulating the investment banks or the energy sector, etc.) might not have been wise.

Achieving consensus among three hundred million people is not going to be real easy.
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by FoxKnight »

Ahh! That's too much for me to reply to!

I think it's possible to cut unnecessary things from healthcare and education but what is necessary is completely up for debate. There are things like teacher salaries for teachers who don't even teach for years and they still get a paycheck for something they don't do because the teacher's union is responsible for outrageous legislation being passed. I don't think that unions should be so powerful as to let such nonsense be acceptable. And healthcare is not a right, it's a service. People shouldn't be taxed not to have health insurance.

And we can't get rid of Medicare and Medicade or social security just yet. We should probably start limiting those until we pry ourselves from the ideology of entitlement from the government, like Greece.

We need to cut spending in order to be able to cut taxes. The least we can do is fix what we already got in programs and legislation.

I am open to new ideas as long as they are sensible. I don't get the whole energy crisis. It's not greenhouse gases that are the problem, it's the problem with what in the ocean. Algeae, pollution,excessive nutrients in seawater are all problems that are what are causing global warming, (if you believe in global warming, which I don't), but still negatively affect the environment. Almost all of Earth's oxygen is produce from the ocean's plants, why worry so much about the rainforests?

I don't believe we should force everyone to choose other forms of energy over oil. We need to drill our own oil until there is a cost-effective alternative to it but it should still always be an option.

And as for foreign policies, we need a strong military in addition to diplomacy. I don't really know why we are fighting in Iraq but I don't wish for the U.S. to just give up to the terrorists in charge over there.

And as for racism? We just need to stop giving so much attention to racists. If they are ignored long enough people will stop thinking of it as a major issue.

I think I'll just stop now until I'm better informed on things to debate. I hope i was able to answer some of your questions. (Feels interrogated.) And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to enter the political game completely ignorant of what is true and what's not. I'm not yet old enough to vote but I want to be informed when I do!
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Terastas »

I'm going to be short and sweet with my answers since I resent you using this thread as a conservative soapbox:
FoxKnight wrote:And healthcare is not a right, it's a service.
If you believe that, then the police and fire dept. are services too. Should those be privatized?
FoxKnight wrote:And we can't get rid of Medicare and Medicade or social security just yet. We should probably start limiting those until we pry ourselves from the ideology of entitlement from the government, like Greece.
I thought the lesson learned from the financial collapse was that the private sector can't be trusted to handle our money responsibly.
FoxKnight wrote:We need to cut spending in order to be able to cut taxes. The least we can do is fix what we already got in programs and legislation.
If we need to "pry ourselves from the ideology of entitlement," that isn't the way to do it.
FoxKnight wrote:I am open to new ideas as long as they are sensible. I don't get the whole energy crisis. It's not greenhouse gases that are the problem, it's the problem with what in the ocean. Algeae, pollution,excessive nutrients in seawater are all problems that are what are causing global warming, (if you believe in global warming, which I don't), but still negatively affect the environment. Almost all of Earth's oxygen is produce from the ocean's plants, why worry so much about the rainforests?
Don't believe, or are in denial?
FoxKnight wrote:I don't believe we should force everyone to choose other forms of energy over oil. We need to drill our own oil until there is a cost-effective alternative to it but it should still always be an option.
There are cost-effective alternatives to oil. Several, in fact.
FoxKnight wrote:And as for foreign policies, we need a strong military in addition to diplomacy. I don't really know why we are fighting in Iraq but I don't wish for the U.S. to just give up to the terrorists in charge over there.
Okay, we need to cut spending, but we also need the big-a** over-bloated military and keep butting our noses into other country's affairs too? Now you've lost any hope of convincing me these are thoughts were acquired any way except by following the G.O.P. talking points completely. You might as well just throw in that you don't believe in gay marriage or evolution after that.
FoxKnight wrote:And as for racism? We just need to stop giving so much attention to racists. If they are ignored long enough people will stop thinking of it as a major issue.
Did ignoring the bully ever work for you in grade school?

*sigh* Anyway, my prediction about how the left and the right would respond to the rally? It looks like it came true. The professional conservative windbags were reported to be blasting it even as it happened, and before Tuesday's election, I got an e-mail from BoldProgressives.org reminding everyone to "vote for sanity" on Tuesday. So either the insane lefties have sided with Stewart out of spite for the insane righties, or the extreme left-wingers were never as insane as the extreme right-wingers wanted everyone to believe they were.

Either way, Stewart didn't get the rally "against insanity on both sides of the aisle" that he promised. Regardless of what he says, the rally wound up being a gathering of moderates and progressives rallying against the right.
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by FoxKnight »

First, healthcare is a service because you go to them in cases that aren't always emergencies. You have check-ups and visits when you might have a condition but you don't go to the police or fire stations unless there is an emergency. It would cost way too much to fund anything other than emergencies. Hospitals aren't only for emergencies, therefore, it is a service.

If the private sector is so bad then would you rather have a government contol everything so everyone is completely equal like Soviet Russia? That didn't work there and it won't work here either. The people should have equal opportunities but what they choose to do is completely up to them, even if it means failing because that would insure that only the responsible businesses survive. I'm not saying it is entirely their fault if things just don't work out for their businesses but that's why there are programs to help people when it does happen. But that should only help them get back up again, not to fund them forever.

Then I'd like to see a better plan for getting rid of entitlements. You could have at least explained to me why my theory wouldn't work instead of just saying I'm wrong.

Show me some proof of global warming that is current and factual and then I'd believe it.

And that was a typo. I forgot the add "more" when I was talking about cost-effective alternatives. But it appears you agree that it shouldn't be forced upon the population like what Cap 'N Trade is designed to do. It isn't right to destroy the rainforests and all of that but it shouldn't be linked soley to destroying the atmosphere and all of that.

And I said "in addition to diplomacy". I didn't say we needed a huge military. But as for involving ourselves in other countries' business, we should shy away from that as best we can unless it is a threat to our country, in which we would need our military to fight back.

I don't recall ever being bullied in school by anyone other than this kid named Andrew, (that's all I remember), who sometimes messed with me but I didn't let any of that get to me and he eventually gave up when the next school year came around. Some might consider him to be a bully but he didn't get the satisfaction he wanted and gave up.

Now, I find your post filled with negative comments about me and that is rude, especially when you have little argument against the actual issues in my posts. I do not attack your character, only the arguments you have against mine. This is not a defamation (sp?) of your character but a plea to stick to the issues.

People should be allowed to have their gay marriages but I will involve myself with that. And evolution is probably true in its concepts but I do not agree with the theory that we came from other primates. Or am I confusing it with Darwinism? It's been proven by genetics we have more genes in common with rabbits than any primates. So don't think I side with the G.O.P. on all issues. I only agree with them on what works or works better than other theories.

I don't know much about Colbert or the rally so I think it'd be best to leave this thread because I feel I'm making too big of a political discussion here. Thank you all for helping me refine my ideology and if you want to keep debating with me invite me to a debating thread.
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by FoxKnight »

So to stay on topic, did anyone here go to the rally? :3
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by Terastas »

FoxKnight wrote:First, healthcare is a service because you go to them in cases that aren't always emergencies. You have check-ups and visits when you might have a condition but you don't go to the police or fire stations unless there is an emergency. It would cost way too much to fund anything other than emergencies. Hospitals aren't only for emergencies, therefore, it is a service.
Wrong. The police and fire dept. will come to get stray cats out of drain pipes or tell your neighbors to turn their volume down too. Hospitals, meanwhile, are just for emergencies; most will recommend you to a specialized clinic for anything but life-threatening must-have-now surgery, and those are the people who won't clear you for surgery unless their boss decides it'd be profitable to do so.
If the private sector is so bad then would you rather have a government contol everything so everyone is completely equal like Soviet Russia?
This isn't an all-or-nothing debate kid. Just because I would advocate for the socialization of medicine doesn't mean I think we should socialize everything.

I don't want to turn this into a rant thread, but some of these things you're saying are so stupid that I could never live with myself if I let them slide. That was one of them.
Then I'd like to see a better plan for getting rid of entitlements. You could have at least explained to me why my theory wouldn't work instead of just saying I'm wrong.
No offense, but your "theory" sounds more like wishful thinking. You don't think tax cuts will help, but it's what you want.

To me, it's not that people feel entitled that is the problem. The only people who feel entitled that concern me are the people who feel its their right to lie, cheat and write the rules in their favor to maximize their profits no matter what the cost.
Show me some proof of global warming that is current and factual and then I'd believe it.
Why? So you can say "that's biased" and then counter it with a study funded and conducted by Exxon?

You want proof? Hop on a plane to Bangkok and ask anyone who lives there if they believe in global warming. Do it now while it's still above water.
But it appears you agree that it shouldn't be forced upon the population like what Cap 'N Trade is designed to do.
Oh no, I was all for it. The only people pissed off about that are A) the Republicans, who are pissed off at everything Obama does anyway, B) the energy companies, who just had their get-rich-quick scheme kicked out from under them, C) the Saudis because we're not sending them billions of dollars anymore, and D) the Chinese because we're not borrowing billions of dollars from them anymore. We have the technology -- solar, wind, clean coal, nuclear, natural gas, hydroelectric, methane, bio-diesel, etc., etc., but the energy companies thought it was more profitable for them to keep covering up global warming studies instead of investing in the alternatives. Once again, the private sector failed and the government had to step in to prevent a disaster.

And I said "in addition to diplomacy". I didn't say we needed a huge military. But as for involving ourselves in other countries' business, we should shy away from that as best we can unless it is a threat to our country, in which we would need our military to fight back.
This is not a defamation (sp?) of your character but a plea to stick to the issues.
You're telling me to stick to the issues? This is a thread about Stewart's D.C. rally -- you're the one who brought out the conservative soap box. All I did was respond to it.
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FoxKnight
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Re: Colbert and Stewart march on D.C.

Post by FoxKnight »

Although I found no evidence of the globe actually warming anywhere in your Bangkok link...you are right about the last part. I'm sorry about posting my views here. The first paragraph of my first post here was the only coherent thing I've said and I should have just looked for a debate thread or not said anything else at all. It was probably too late for me to go back to the topic in my last post and I recant everything. If it amends anything I will be glad to delete my posts and keep my thoughts to myself next time when in a thread with someone obviously more experienced and knowledgeable than me, such as yourself. This is an honest apology and I only ask if we can get rid of any posts we've made not pertaining to the actual topic. I believe I've learned my lesson.

Edit: I was unaware that posts cannot be deleted so disregard anything I mentioned about post deletion.
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