Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

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Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Shadow Wulf »

One of the subjects that really irks me is when people go around claiming they are part X and Y country. Like a black American claiming to be African-American, majority of black people in the US are no way affiliated with Africa. Their ancestors maybe African, but that was hundreds of years ago. I also remember Howlitzer and I got into a bit of a argument a long time ago about how he claims to be a part German and Irish etc. Now this would be fine if his father, mother, grandmother and grandfather was either German, Irish or born in any other country. But they aren't, they are all Americans, his ancestors that were from these countries were hundreds of years ago. The line of when you should stop associating yourself as a part of any country is debatable I know, but I personally believe and I think most people would agree, that if YOU yourself are not directly linked to any country like say from your father or mother (Or at least your Grandparents), then you can't really say your part whatever if you were born in the US. You are just an American, you are just a German, or Polish, or whatever country you were born in.

If any of you keep up with Basketball you will likely heard of Jeremy Lin from the Knicks. http://kotaku.com/5886461/china-is-lins ... jeremy-lin
This person is apparently of Chinese, Taiwan, and even South Korea decent it seems. And funny enough all these countries are trying to claim him because of how well he plays and hes Asian, despite being born in America. But Taiwan truly claim him out of all these countries as Jeremy's family has been in Taiwan for generations, China just decided to claim him because they still believe that Taiwan is a part of China.

Anyways does it annoy anyone else when they hear someone try to claim to be part of a country when it's clear they are not? It's one thing to say your ancestors were from X country but to truly say you are that too is stretching it.
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by WerewolfKeeper3 »

to be honest... no it doesn't really bother me. We're the sum of our parts, so to speak, so yes, when we say we're X, Y, Z, a bit of A and B thrown in together for good measure, we're just saying that's what our ancestors were. we're American, but that doesn't mean we can't celebrate and be interested in what countries our ancestors came from, since without them, we wouldn't be here. rather interesting to find that i'm of german, english, dutch and scotch-irish decent, and will probably try to look up information about them. and yes, my family has been here generations, but i'm still the sum of my parts.
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by rouxgaroux »

Sounds like you may just be easily annoyed.

In terms of haplogroups there isn't an overarching, pervasive majority in the United States, which reflects it's history as a nation of (mostly) immigrants. Born in America, sure, but there is no "American" haplotype or -types as there are in other parts of the world--in Europe, for example, the genetic makeup of the population is likely to be much more homogenized throughout a nation. That's not to say that all Turks, for example, are yDNA haplogroup L, but a good many of them are, reflecting a common ancestor.

Anyway, I don't see the problem with having pride in one's roots, or at the very least being cognizant of them.
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Shadow Wulf »

I understand having pride of your roots, I do it too. I have both French, Tao Native Tribe roots and at times I will say that one of my ancestors are one of those, but do I say that I am part French? No because even though my genes may trace back to France I don't consider myself as part French because that part of me is so deluded. I am not referring to the genetic makeup of our DNA I am referring to something more practical, at a social level you can say. You can say you are descendants of Vikings and you pride yourself with it, I have a friend who is one, thats fine. Do I consider him a Norde? Not really but we joke around with it. Norde descendant sure. It's just the way people perceive themselves is kind of what bothers me.

Werewolfkeeper, if you are born, raised in America, and your parents and grandparents and even great grandparents are born and raised in America, you are first and foremost an American. I don't believe you are "part" German, English, or Dutch. You can say are descendent or that your ancestors are those things, but you yourself really aren't one. My friends Grandmother is pure blooded German, so he can safely claim that he is 1/4 German and I'm fine with that. Do you see what I am trying to get at?

If a Black American (African- American??) whos family has lived in America for several generations and he decides to go to Africa and say he is part African, I bet you a lot of Africans are gonna disagree and probably insult him. Same thing with these "Italian"- American mobs here in the US, a lot of people in Italy sees them as Italian wannabes these days. The main exception I see is Irish-Americans, Irish seems to welcome anyone with open arms that has Irish ancestors here in America, especially in the north eastern US.

Also Roux, I generally don't get annoyed that easily, it's just that in my eyes I see these people as posers. And I admit does bother me. But again, I have no problem in having pride in your roots and ancestors, just the people who say "I'm part X" When they really aren't, they are descendants of X .
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by WerewolfKeeper3 »

I understand what you're saying.
I just find it easier to say i'm part this and this, then saying descended from. Fewer words. :D
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by *nagowteena* »

I personally don't mind, it's just a matter of words and how one takes them in, in my eyes. Though I am quite a mutt and never took such things quite to seriously.

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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Terastas »

Something worth keeping in mind is that the only people who are actually ethnically American are the Native Americans. Everyone else has roots from across the ocean.

That said, I will agree with you that there is a difference between saying "I'm Scottish" (which I am) and "I'm from Scotland" (which I am not). I can't deny my roots, especially not when the name of a shire there is the exact same as my surname. But beyond the fact that I am descended from people who crossed over from Scotland three hundred years ago, the only connection I have to Scotland is the mail-order whiskey my father gets and shares every year for Christmas.

Only times when I really object to people expressing pride in their heritage is when they're either A) insinuating that it makes them naturally better than everyone else, or B) obviously using it as a crutch to compensate for their shortcomings. Snooki on Jersey Shore insisting that all of her critics "just wish they were Italian," for example, makes me want to strangle her even more than usual.

And I will agree that the Chinese are waaaaaay out of line talking about Jeremy Lin as if he were one of their own.
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Trinity »

Terastas wrote:Something worth keeping in mind is that the only people who are actually ethnically American are the Native Americans. Everyone else has roots from across the ocean.
Thank you. I'm not even Native American, but I know plenty of people who are, and they'd be a tad upset by having non-Native-Americans claiming they are American in the way that has been, as far as I understand it, suggested.

Yes, I'm a mutt. Good old Homogenized American-born non-Native. I don't have, as far as I know, a drop of Native American chromosomes in my body. I am the sum of my genes, when we are talking about parts of who I am.

I am of Irish, English, and German descent. I can in fact track from my maternal-grandfather's parents who were Scots/Irish immigrants, and my German stock comes from the Pennsylvania Dutch (which aren't actually Dutch but Deutsch) primarily. However, I know some of those were also immigrants from both World Wars. The Bryant family name has been in America since the Colonial days, thoughI've not tracked back far enough to see if that is a direct ancestor (yet). ;)

Does that make me any more or less "German" then the other German-heritage-claiming Americans? No. However.....
Terastas wrote:That said, I will agree with you that there is a difference between saying "I'm Scottish" (which I am) and "I'm from Scotland" (which I am not). I can't deny my roots, especially not when the name of a shire there is the exact same as my surname. But beyond the fact that I am descended from people who crossed over from Scotland three hundred years ago, the only connection I have to Scotland is the mail-order whiskey my father gets and shares every year for Christmas.
What I see here it a hackling over semantics.

It is an American euphemism to say "I'm German" or "I'm Germanic", or "I come from Irish blood", or "I'm part English". It is how we structure our sentences to describe our heritage, our past, our blood connections. My DNA combination can be traced back to Germany, Ireland and even traces of Scotland as well as England. I may not be from the culture but on genetic level I am what I am. I may not be fromGermany within the last four generations, but I am of Germanic descent.

In fact out of the three heritages, I am more German, even with such a close Scots/Irish relative. This is due to the fact that there is German blood on all sides of my family, though the surname (Bryant) is English. I'm a Reinhart, and a Gassner for instance, one was my maternal Grandmother, and one is my paternal Grandmother. :)
Terastas wrote:Only times when I really object to people expressing pride in their heritage is when they're either A) insinuating that it makes them naturally better than everyone else, or B) obviously using it as a crutch to compensate for their shortcomings. Snooki on Jersey Shore insisting that all of her critics "just wish they were Italian," for example, makes me want to strangle her even more than usual.
Indeed. It's like people blaming my eccentric quirks on me being from German stock. Like.. wtf? Oh and Snooki makes me want to throttle her anyway... especially because I'm a "native" Jersey-ite and wish Jersey Shore never happened. GRRRRRR.
Terastas wrote:And I will agree that the Chinese are waaaaaay out of line talking about Jeremy Lin as if he were one of their own.
Not going to touch that. I know far too much about the "Asian" cultural racism issues then I've ever wanted to know. Goodness forbid if he were a Mongol-blooded offshoot.... they'd cover it up and then some. :P
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Scott Gardener »

Being werewolf trumps all nationalities. Once you know someone is a lycanthrope, you stop thinking about that person's race or gender. Just throwing that out there...
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by FoxKnight »

Interesting

So what about fourth generation or higher natural-born American citizens who live the culture of their descent? Just because their parents or grandparents were not born in the country of their heritage shouldn't mean they are not part of that culture

I don't think my relatives in California have ever been to Mexico where my abuela is from, but they definitely are Mexican

@Scott - Nice one, by the way :P
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Shadow Wulf »

FoxKnight wrote:Interesting

So what about fourth generation or higher natural-born American citizens who live the culture of their descent? Just because their parents or grandparents were not born in the country of their heritage shouldn't mean they are not part of that culture

I don't think my relatives in California have ever been to Mexico where my abuela is from, but they definitely are Mexican

@Scott - Nice one, by the way :P
Living based off the culture of your ancestors is perfectly fine. A lot of people do it, most of them consider it tradition. Saying you are of Mexican decent is one thing, saying you are Mexican is another, how much of a Mexican they really are; have their grandparents been pairing with nothing but other Mexicans? Or have they been mostly with other American citizens who lived in the US for generations or from other countries? This is the part where I get stuck at. I understand when people say "I am part____" what they really mean is that they are descendants of said country. So some of them don't quite word it right, but their are still some who insist that they are these things and while I do respect them and don't try to argue, I just don't believe it is totally accurate. Yes I know from a DNA scientific point of view sure, but again I am not referring to that.

@Terestas,But you are from a family who has been in America for generations, but say you are Scottish, yet don't see Jeremy Lin as Chinese even though almost every citizen in Taiwan are direct descendants of China. Did you mean to say you are a Scottish descendant ? Because when you say you are Scottish you imply that you or your parents are born there. Anyways I don't want to argue with you there since you and I can both agree about Jeremy Lin. :D

The message I am trying to get is this. You can say you are part ___ if you have a good amount of that traced into you, like Trinity's German heritage. You can say you are descendant of whatever country you want. But don't say you are (insert country here) when you or your parents weren't even born there because it implies that you were.

Well, I guess I am done on the subject. If people wants to say they are Irish, Scottish, German or French, I'll let them be.
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by FoxKnight »

@Shadow Wulf

Well, all of my tios, tias, and most of my cousins were all born in the U.S., but they descend from my grandparents from Mexico, on my father's side. I don't really think they practice any Mexican traditions, to be honest

It really is just the way they are. They love to make drama, bicker all of the time, and (as my dad always says) it isn't a holiday without the cops showing up, but they are really a tight knit family. I don't think being born in the U.S. changes anything, they are Mexican
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Shadow Wulf »

Well you see, in my view I'd see them as 2nd or 3rd generation Mexican-Americans. Being born in the US has nothing to do with how you act, and the traditions you have, being raised in the US however will have some impact, but it mostly depends on how close your family and relatives are when it comes to that kind of stuff. You pass on these things to your children and then it's up to them to whether or not to follow these traditions and culture. I was born in Puerto Rico and raised in the US, and I can pretty much say I have been Americanized, I no longer share the same taste in music as regular Puerto Ricans do, nor do I talk and act like one from over there. I notice a difference in behavior between Boricuas who were raised in the US vs those raised in Puerto Rico So we try to keep strong ties to our Islander counter part, but we still maintain a strong and proud heritage no matter what, especially towards those who were born and raised in New York, in fact we have a special name for them, New York Ricans. And yes we share similar traits with your family. Us hispanics are a loud bunch aren't we? :D
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Scott Gardener »

The U.S. is a rather fuzzy area, beacause our culture is such a hodge-podge. The racism today against Hispanics is rather ubsurd given that: 1. A large part of the Southwest U.S. was once part of Mexico, including race issue hotbeds like Texas and Arizona, 2. Mexicans and other Hispanics are essentially hybrids of early Spanish settlers and Native Americans, who were here first, and 3. American culture celebrates its diverse origins, yet does not tout itself primarily as a series of invasion forces--but racists routinely try to bill Hispanics in the U.S. as an "invasion." I think the real issue is the intimidation and discomfort humans have towards each other when they use different languages.
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Terastas »

Shadow Wulf wrote:@Terestas,But you are from a family who has been in America for generations, but say you are Scottish, yet don't see Jeremy Lin as Chinese even though almost every citizen in Taiwan are direct descendants of China. Did you mean to say you are a Scottish descendant ? Because when you say you are Scottish you imply that you or your parents are born there. Anyways I don't want to argue with you there since you and I can both agree about Jeremy Lin. :D
Actually, my roots can (supposedly) be traced all the way back to the Mayflower. But like I said, my surname is Scottish, so no matter how far back it may have been, there's not really any doubt where our ancestors came from. Same with my mother; her maiden name has "Norwegian" written in the margins.

My only connection to either of those countries is my ancestry, but it's not a connection I can outright deny. I'm clearly not a native American after all.

As for Jeremy Lin, well. . . Sorry, that was poorly worded on my part. Jeremy Lin has every right to identify himself as being Chinese if he wants, but when I said the Chinese have no right to call him one of their own (much less take credit for his success), I should have said that China has no right to do so. Lin is ethnically Chinese, but that's his only connection. He wasn't born, raised, educated or had anything to do with China as far as I know. Beyond his bloodline, everything that made him who he is happened right here.

This isn't the next Yao Ming story -- isn't the next upstanding example of Chinese upbringing or selective breeding. But Yao Ming retired last year, so I would venture that all the Ming Mania across the ocean was desperate for something else to fall back on.

At the opposite end of the spectrum are the Boston Bruins, who went to the White House as the pride of the nation even though only one player was actually born in the U.S. (and he chose not to go). The Bruins come from all over, but the team was drafted by an American organization, trains and practices in America, plays its home games in America, and plays on behalf of a city in America.

Nobody on the team is actually from Boston, but it was in Boston that they became a championship team. That, in my mind, is a legitimate point of pride.

Guess I also could've clarified my stance on ethnic pride better. I consider my heritage a part of what makes me an individual, but the only thing I actually enjoy about being Scottish/Norwegian is laughing during the debates over which side's native cuisine is worse ("Haggis vs. Lutfisk" -- Like Romney vs. Santorum, only slightly less appetizing). Our heritage makes us unique, but it doesn't necessarily make us better.

And the more I think about it, the more I realize the people who think their heritage does make them better and completely revel in it wind up giving in to stereotypes and becoming less individuals for it.
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by werewolf-woman »

Shadow Wulf wrote:One of the subjects that really irks me is when people go around claiming they are part X and Y country. Like a black American claiming to be African-American, majority of black people in the US are no way affiliated with Africa. Their ancestors maybe African, but that was hundreds of years ago. I also remember Howlitzer and I got into a bit of a argument a long time ago about how he claims to be a part German and Irish etc. Now this would be fine if his father, mother, grandmother and grandfather was either German, Irish or born in any other country. But they aren't, they are all Americans, his ancestors that were from these countries were hundreds of years ago. The line of when you should stop associating yourself as a part of any country is debatable I know, but I personally believe and I think most people would agree, that if YOU yourself are not directly linked to any country like say from your father or mother (Or at least your Grandparents), then you can't really say your part whatever if you were born in the US. You are just an American, you are just a German, or Polish, or whatever country you were born in.

If any of you keep up with Basketball you will likely heard of Jeremy Lin from the Knicks. http://kotaku.com/5886461/china-is-lins ... jeremy-lin
This person is apparently of Chinese, Taiwan, and even South Korea decent it seems. And funny enough all these countries are trying to claim him because of how well he plays and hes Asian, despite being born in America. But Taiwan truly claim him out of all these countries as Jeremy's family has been in Taiwan for generations, China just decided to claim him because they still believe that Taiwan is a part of China.

Anyways does it annoy anyone else when they hear someone try to claim to be part of a country when it's clear they are not? It's one thing to say your ancestors were from X country but to truly say you are that too is stretching it.

i think when people refer to themselves as African American they are implying not nationality but ethnicity and possibly culture. You are affiliated with a country because of your ethnicity and/ or cultural identity. Identifying your self by your ethnicity and nationality does not detract from your citizenship.
When you live in another country other than your families origin, ethnicity and cultural customs become important. Culture and customs, allows people to connect with their heritage and help in building identity. I am Chicana, which means i was born in the U.S but my mother is Mexican (implies Mexican Heritage). Mexican American would not be an appropriate category for me because i am an American citizen. My family bases a high value on culture and tradition to celebrate our heritage. I am proud of my culture and i am proud to be an American as well. My Father's heritage is Irish but we are pretty fare removed from the culture and my father had adopted my mothers cultural customs.
There are many titles people give themselves to demonstrate their heritage and i think linking themselves to a specific culture is a way to connect with their ancestry. If People from anther country bring their cultural traditions with them to the U.S, and future generations observe the traditions and culture, i think there is nothing wrong with someone identifying themselves as such.
This seems to be a common question that rises in sociology classes, i really enjoy listening to peoples responses to this question in class.
As far as this forum goes people claim to be freakin werewolves, so i think citing your ethnicity(heritage) along with nationality is fine by me.
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by werewolf-woman »

Shadow Wulf wrote:I understand having pride of your roots, I do it too. I have both French, Tao Native Tribe roots and at times I will say that one of my ancestors are one of those, but do I say that I am part French? No because even though my genes may trace back to France I don't consider myself as part French because that part of me is so deluded. I am not referring to the genetic makeup of our DNA I am referring to something more practical, at a social level you can say. You can say you are descendants of Vikings and you pride yourself with it, I have a friend who is one, thats fine. Do I consider him a Norde? Not really but we joke around with it. Norde descendant sure. It's just the way people perceive themselves is kind of what bothers me.

Werewolfkeeper, if you are born, raised in America, and your parents and grandparents and even great grandparents are born and raised in America, you are first and foremost an American. I don't believe you are "part" German, English, or Dutch. You can say are descendent or that your ancestors are those things, but you yourself really aren't one. My friends Grandmother is pure blooded German, so he can safely claim that he is 1/4 German and I'm fine with that. Do you see what I am trying to get at?

If a Black American (African- American??) whos family has lived in America for several generations and he decides to go to Africa and say he is part African, I bet you a lot of Africans are gonna disagree and probably insult him. Same thing with these "Italian"- American mobs here in the US, a lot of people in Italy sees them as Italian wannabes these days. The main exception I see is Irish-Americans, Irish seems to welcome anyone with open arms that has Irish ancestors here in America, especially in the north eastern US.

Also Roux, I generally don't get annoyed that easily, it's just that in my eyes I see these people as posers. And I admit does bother me. But again, I have no problem in having pride in your roots and ancestors, just the people who say "I'm part X" When they really aren't, they are descendants of X .

i think Trinity is right that this might just be an issue of semantics,
most people say they are such and such because that is the common way people identify their ethnicity. it seems you prefer to cite your ancestry but i think in common conversation people phase their heritage in the former rather than your way. The issue with African Americans title is that so many came here unwillingly and was forced to abandon their cultural identity. With the black pride movement people sought to reconnect with a lost culture and find a cultural identity that they could be proud of.
You may have an issue with someones heritage but if they still observe the cultural customs of their ancestry they are by no means posers. You may express your ancestry by breaking it down or saying this who came from where but i think it is just common part of the vernacular to say i am part x and Y. I observe all of the traditions of my Mexican heritage, i speak the language and i even used to be a part of a Mexican dancing group. When i have children i will share my cultural heritage with them..
Am i a poser? will my children be posers and who has the right to say so?
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Shadow Wulf »

Um you think you could have fit all that in one post? :? Anyways I apologize if I offended you and others for calling you posers. It's not like me and it's one of those cases where I wasn't really thinking when I wrote that. I wasn't really referring to culture or traditions, but I guess you are right. Anyways I think I am done on the subject. I will leave it open for anyone else who feels they want to put in their two cent.
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Trinity »

Shadow Wulf wrote:Um you think you could have fit all that in one post? :? Anyways I apologize if I offended you and others for calling you posers. It's not like me and it's one of those cases where I wasn't really thinking when I wrote that. I wasn't really referring to culture or traditions, but I guess you are right. Anyways I think I am done on the subject. I will leave it open for anyone else who feels they want to put in their two cent.
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Seriously though this does bring up a serious issue... Americans really don't have a strict identity... We are too hodge-podge. It would be un-Constitutional for us to reject, well, pretty much anything. So where folks who are Irish have a culture and a history that binds them together, America has...... a patch-work quilt for an identity. No official language (unless that's been redacted) either. We are mutts.

It's almost as if being American = a coat one puts on rather then a core-deep identity.

At least that's how it feels, and the influx of immigrants of any kind threatens that unstable sense of National identity.

Yet, you can spot an American visiting any other country - because we do have a culture (or a wide variety of similar cultures) based on the ideals in our governmental documents.

So you get this weird juxtaposition (I LOVE that word!) of self identity.
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Shadow Wulf »

I am actually surprised how many Hispanics we have here let alone Mexicans. :o

Also Trinity, I know what you are saying, although I personally do feel like America does have a core deep identity even if it does borrow a lot from others. Also where you been? English has always been the official language. :ducktoss3:

I'm glad I can bring up a good discussion that doesn't just involve werewolves. For a while thats where all the real talk were only heading.
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Trinity »

Shadow Wulf wrote:I am actually surprised how many Hispanics we have here let alone Mexicans. :o

Also Trinity, I know what you are saying, although I personally do feel like America does have a core deep identity even if it does borrow a lot from others. Also where you been? English has always been the official language. :ducktoss3:

I'm glad I can bring up a good discussion that doesn't just involve werewolves. For a while thats where all the real talk were only heading.
There is always an influx of different cultures at any given period in history. The Italians had their hey day, as did the Irish, German, and others. There was a time I think in the 80's where there was a renewed in-growth of Asian/Chinese (I think). It's now the Hispanic/Mexican's time in history. :)

Me? I got a family with three kids, between trying to finally get my brain to be happy with a website redesign (grargh!) so I can get that done.... kids, school needs, and art-needs I can disappear from time to time. ;)

Having a wider breadth of conversation is good for any one group. :) Gets us to know one another better. :)
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Shadow Wulf »

Oh no I meant just in the forums alone, I attracted three hispanics to this subject. As for the influx in cultures I know about the rise of hispanics in the past 20 years and yes you are right that in the late 70s and 80s there was a surge in Asian/Chinese culture and it influenced Hollywood quite a bit, In Blade Runner it looks like Los Angeles has become the new Hong Kong but it still maintains a diverse population despite leaning towards Asian metropolis setting, then in Aliens you had the umbrella corporation Weyland-Yutani that had two giant companies, one American and one Japanese merging. Then you had Big Trouble in Little China aswell as the rise of Jackie Chan and Jet Li, so you can see Hollywood played off the rise of Asians quite well. :D Before them I believe was the Italians who had a lot of power in the early 20th century, mostly thanks the alcohol prohibition.
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Morkulv »

I think Japan is a very good example of weird (and stupid) nationality laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nationality_law
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Trinity »

funky
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Re: Claiming Nationality/Ethnicity.

Post by Shadow Wulf »

Look whos back from the dead. :o
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