Problems with Freeborn?

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MattSullivan
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Post by MattSullivan »

Are you really that concerned with the inclusion of the pack symbol? Because somehow you'll feel you're part of the creative process? Or do you want to see a GOOD movie? is the pack symbol THAT important to a good story?

Also, what is wrong with making FREEBORN more of an action movie? I personally didn't LIKE it, because I didn't think there was ENOUGH action.
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Post by Set »

Um...no offense, alphanubilus, but just because you "do this for a living" doesn't mean you know s*** about quality. After all, they cancelled Firefly and gave Anne Rice a writing career...

At any rate I'm gonna read it again. I've still got a copy somewhere.
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Post by MoonKit »

Set wrote: After all, they cancelled Firefly...
Agreed.
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Post by MattSullivan »

Firefly was an awesome show. Cancelled or not .

And alphaanubis IS a writer. He's written several scripts ( and is STILL writing ) How many have you guys written? I'm not insinuating anyone who writes a script s automatically a better writer or person, I just mean in order to write WELL you have to sit down and DO it. And I know for a fact he can write very well. He also has an agent. You don't get an agent by being a BAD writer, or NOT knowing what you're talking about.

also guys, READ what people have to say here. Not once, but twice. All alphanubis did was give a critique and compliment AB on his effort. His observations are very clear. He wasn't trying to be mean.

One final point here, and that is you don't do someone a favor by LYING about their work. You improve in life, at whatever it is you do, through PRACTICE, and God willing, a little help now and then. When I ask someone to read CAMP LYCANTHROPE, I ask for an honest opinion and I MEAN it. If you can't take criticism, then perhaps your work isn't "up to snuff" as far as whatever defines "professionalism" ( professional means, whatever occupation you choose, not just filmmaking ) because of the incredible input from all the pack members who read my script, I was able to make necessary changes ( not to a drastic degree, but just enough to key in on what was definetly WRONG ) Recognizing your flaws and weaknesses is the surest way to self-improvement.
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Post by cumulusprotagonist »

Aeshetic taste makes people fickle...
Maybe I am wrong...

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Post by RedEye »

Perhaps the Pack symbol is important to people because it unites them in something. That doesn't automatically make it material for the Picture.

At most, I can see the "Pack" symbol as the background icon for the Title and Credits. Think about it, folks: these people are in hiding! They are NOT going to carry something that identifies them as a Were' anything. They are trying desperately to blend in and "disappear in the noise" of Smoothskin society; especially since there's apparently a "big bad" out to kill them for some reason.
AB may include a duckie in a scene, just for the insiders...but unless it makes story-sense, it won't appear, strong as the "Duckie" is here.
Making a Movie ( a Project) is so expensive it makes the Government seem frugal at times: there is no reason for any extra expense on in-crowd stuff unless it helps tell the main story.
I'm just glad that the picture is finally financed. That means eventually, we'll get to see AB's concept of the Werewolf-as-non-Monster. That's a very good thing, all told.
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Post by MattSullivan »

Personally, I hope he doesn't include a duckie.
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Post by alphanubilus »

Set wrote:Um...no offense, alphanubilus, but just because you "do this for a living" doesn't mean you know s*** about quality. After all, they cancelled Firefly and gave Anne Rice a writing career...

At any rate I'm gonna read it again. I've still got a copy somewhere.
Firstly, it is not polite to attack somebody because of their honest opinion. My opinion is my own after all. I gave you my analysis and you can take it or leave it. I was trained by the best, and have been reviewed by the best. I am going to give honest helpful input, not lie to make people feel better, or be a "yes" man. My comments about Freeborn were not harsh, nor did I trash his script. I simply said it needs work... lots of work, but work none the less. I'm not being negative in any way, but giving you my professional opinion, as a writer, and consultant to be. I'd rather Anthony take my thoughts into consideration now, while the script and movie is in development than later. No script is ever set in stone. All script go through modifications, changes, alternations, and or worse rewrites. Not every process is negative. While some scripts can get ruined because of the process, most of those could have avoided much of it, if the story had been solid in the first place. This is the way of life in film making, and screenwriting in general. If you want total control over your work, write novels, but even then you'll have to please publishers. Welcome to my world guys.

As for the Pack Symbol... and I rather like Freeborn's mythology, but there are much better ways to layer it through out the entire story, so that it feels knew and old at the same time.

The mistake many of you here are making is that you are trying to protect Freeborn like it is yours. But it isn't. It isn't mine, Anthony, the Pack, or anybody elses. It belongs to the audiance, and every person who will pay to see it. You want to make sure you are giving them their money's worth or there will be hell to pay. This goes for every story I write, or any writer writes. We love our stories, that is a given, but we like for other people to love our stories even more.

My questions for you, the Pack, is are you judging Freeborn on its own merits? Take out a few blockbuster, cult classic scripts. You can freely find them online for free and compare, or are you judging it because you helped write it? Don't let pride mar good judgment. As I stated before, I have nothing against Freeborn, nor anybody here in general. I'm not bashing, trashing, or trying to do anything to erase what all of you have worked so hard to create, I'm merely trying to guide the project so that what you create won't be in vain...
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Post by nekocj »

Well I like the idea of including a duckie and the pack symbol as background elements. Something that unless you look for it, you're not going to notice it. If one of the characters had lines that brought your attention to the duck or the symbol it would be a different story. In my opinion if AB decides to put that stuff in there, I would be thrilled to see it, personally, but they shouldn't make a big deal out of it.

Hmmm not sure what Anne Rice and Firefly have to do with AlphaAnubilus's comments, but I agree, that show kicked a**!

As for Freeborn, seriously, I'm tired of werewolf action movies because nobody does them right, we just get crap like "Cursed" and "Skinwalkers" where the werewolves are just trying to show up who is more badass than the others and how bitchin scary they are. I'm actually looking forward to seeing something more of a suspenseful drama with werewolves. A good werewolf love story. I'm relieved with what AB is doing with Freeborn because he is doing something that everyone else isn't doing. Also, as far as the script goes, I'm sure Silver and AB know what they are doing and I'm also sure they'll take Matt and Alpha's comments and critiques into consideration because they are also professionals and Matt is right it is professional to be able to handle criticism.


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Post by Kzinistzerg »

My short opinion:

We do need people to go through this script and be honest. We also need people to say "WHEEEE!"

For the duckies and pack symbol, the duckie should definitely be in, but it should be in a corner somewhere. You should have to look for it. Someone rummaging through a closet, tossing out stuff, in the stream of stuff is a duckie. or something like that.

No pack symbol! Anywhere! The Pack symbol is for the pack, which is much more than merely freeborn; it's not "whee, freeborn" anymore. If it's in the movie at all I people will identify it solely with the movie and that's not its main meaning.
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Post by Silverclaw »

I think it depends on what AB and Silver feel they should do. There's some good constructive criticism in alphanubilus review. Brings up some good points. But I really don't feel that the script was bad by any means. If filmed as-is now, it would already be better than 95% of all werewolf movies ever made at the very least. And that aint bad :wink: Better than the majority of movies being churned out recently actually.
I would find it refreshing to see a werewolf movie that is also a drama. Doesn't need a ton of action going on constantly.
I don't mind seeing a duckie or the Pack symbol somewhere in the movie. Just as long as its not in your face, 'Hey, look at this!' *wink**wink* Like, something in the background, subtle. Though if it was decided not to be put in there, I wouldn't be crushed or anything. Would be something for the Pack to keep an eye open for.
I would rather AB made a movie that he would want to see. Movies tend to be better, or at least more interesting that way. I don't want anything watered down and made generic for the masses on purpose. Bland movies come from that. :P
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Post by Set »

alphanubilus wrote:Words.
Dude, it wasn't about your critique. You can pick the script apart all you want. It's your attitude that's the problem. You say "I do this for a living" once, fine. You start repeating it over and over and you just come across with a holier-than-thou vibe. Any idiot who's been on this board more than a week should know that's gonna piss me off. I don't keep my beak shut just because you're a big shot writer with some monkey pestering people for you so you can have a job.
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Post by JoshuaMadoc »

If Mr. Brownrigg put in a random duckie in his movie, which is so far a serious action flick, then that's an indication that he gave in to brutish democracy, or worse yet, peer pressure. So, yes, i agree with Matt.
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Post by MattSullivan »

Alphaanubis and I are professionals, yes, but that doesn't mean we're the only ones who are allowed to give opinions. You guys have the ability to make your voices heard too.

I will say this, no matter how FREEBORN turns out, it will probably be a MUCh better werewolf movie than most of the recent Hollywood releases, like CURSED *shudder* BLOOD and CHOCOLATE, and SKINWALKERS.

Oh my God. Skinwalkers. WHAT...A...PIECE...OF...CRAP. Since when do werewolves ride around on choppers for 90% of the movie. I mean, they set up the WHOLE movie for something "BIG" to happen revolving around this "important" kid. And what happens at midnight?

NOTHING!!!!!!

The bad guy becomes mellow! The kid gets some blood drawn! OOOOOH! Exciting! What a climax! WOOOOOWWWWW! Holy crap I think I pooped my pants!

Guys, its movies like SKINWALKERS that is the REASON to want a script with high quality and a good, compelling story. Just imagine what a review page for FREEBORN might look like on RottenTomatoes if it was hALF as disappointing as Skinwalkers.
if you don't believe me, check out the review page! This isn't just ONE critic talking.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/skinwalkers/
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Post by ravaged_warrior »

MattSullivan wrote:Since when do werewolves ride around on choppers for 90% of the movie.
http://imdb.com/title/tt0067972/
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Post by IndianaJones »

Oh god, those are terrible, terrible scores for this year of werewolves movies. Let's hope Freeborn will beat those movies and the year of 2008 to improve the pretty bad, awful, and not so bad werewolf movies created by Hollywood and the Media.
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Post by JoshuaMadoc »

You gotta admit, the story premise for B&C wasn't that good. It's bad enough that Astrid has a serious attitude problem and yet is described as "more of a fox than a wolf", but being Vivi's mother? *BLOODIED MOUTHFOAM*
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Post by MattSullivan »

My big problem is there is no sense of supernatural with these werewolf movies. Just a bunch of people eho look like they came out of a fashion magazine trying to look tough, or wrapped up in so much leather they could be a couch.

There's no...magic...for lack of a better word.
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Post by JoshuaMadoc »

No magic? More like no Devil May Cry syndrome in any of them. :(
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Post by MattSullivan »

I don't know what that means but i'll take your word for it.

No, what I mean is that it seems in order for a werewolf to be "cool" it has to be brooding, wear all black, a long trenchcoat, shoot guns John Woo style, and basically exhibit a most dislikable trait we animators refer to as "The TUDE". It's almost as if hollywood is embarassed that they're making a werewolf movie. they think there's something inherently "embarassing" abou werewolves, so they wrap them up in "attitude" and black leather, or biker garb, or Euro-fashion. They can't make them ordinary, blue-collar people.
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Post by Silverclaw »

That's another reason why I'm looking forward to Freeborn. Regular people as werewolves.
:)

In a lot of the reviews to those crappy ww movies, critics also notice the lack of transformation scenes. The Cursed kids never got past claws and the veiny-look. Blood and Chocolate just had models doing a swan-dive and turning instantly into a wolf in a flash of sparkly light. Skinwalkers...nothing at all. A lot of people who are not die-hard werewolf fans recognize that one of the most fun parts of a ww movie is seeing the transformation. Though, of course, the story and characters are the most important part of any movie. Which all the above movies are sadly lacking in. Hopefully Freeborn will have both great eye-candy, and also an excellent story and characters :)
If Mr. Brownrigg put in a random duckie in his movie, which is so far a serious action flick, then that's an indication that he gave in to brutish democracy, or worse yet, peer pressure. So, yes, i agree with Matt.
I'm really going to have to disagree here. First of all, I believe that Freeborn is way more of a drama movie than action. And secondly, if a duckie was thrown in there(heh) it should be because he WANTS to add it in. I wouldn't recommend making duckies a major plot point or anything. :wink: And if he's reading this now, AB, don't add a duckie if you don't want it anywhere in your movie. I don't want him to feel pressured to do anything he doesn't want to do. And if you truly want it somewhere in the film, that's fine as well. :D
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Of Symbols, Ducks, and Wolves...

Post by alphanubilus »

I think the Pack symbol would work perfectly in the movie, w/o being in your face. A secret symbol every werewolf uses to identify themselves as werewolves. Only actual werewolves would know exactly what it means. Historically speaking, early Christians used the sign of the Fish, as a marker to tell who was a brother or not. During those times they never knew who to trust, as both Romans and Jews despised the fledgling faith. So if we were to think of the Pack symbol in that regards it makes perfect logical sense, and possibly a conversation piece between Jack and Fay. I could see a scene of her spying the symbol on a chain that Jack is wearing, and ask, "What does that stand for?"

As for duckies... Anthony could certainly place them around and still make it fun... Dean Devlin and Roland Emmerich use to place action figures from their movies around the film set... They had all sorts of crazy homages laying around. In Godzilla, for instance, they had ID4 action figures sitting on a PC monitor near the end of the movie. The taxi cab's number in the movie was MN44, of which stood for Moon 44, one of Dean Devlin's first acting roles. All things are possible with enough creativity...

As for Freeborn the ACTION MOVIE!!!! Well, even with my quicky run through, I never really thought of it as an action styled movie, but just the set up of a really good werewolfery drama. The higher the stakes the more dramatic it gets... Being a werewolf flick, I would imagine there should be some action, but not the Explosion/ shoot out/ fight scene/ every 10 minutes action movie. Just a great, intense, heart pounding finale... Just thinking... what if Jack led his pack to stand up against the Dowth... hum... hum...

Just thinking... as for comparing Underworld to Cursed... that is like comparing a balonga sandwhich to diarrehea. :P Underworld was okay, but satifying... as for Cursed... I wanted to hide my head while leaving the theatre, totally embarassed that I spent money on the thing... :P
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Post by RedEye »

MattSullivan wrote:I don't know what that means but i'll take your word for it.

No, what I mean is that it seems in order for a werewolf to be "cool" it has to be brooding, wear all black, a long trenchcoat, shoot guns John Woo style, and basically exhibit a most dislikable trait we animators refer to as "The TUDE". It's almost as if hollywood is embarassed that they're making a werewolf movie. they think there's something inherently "embarassing" abou werewolves, so they wrap them up in "attitude" and black leather, or biker garb, or Euro-fashion. They can't make them ordinary, blue-collar people.
Looking back over some of the more recent pictures that may have had a Werewolf in them- Most of the 'chic' ones were made by one certain production company that specialilzes in minimalist acting and huge wardrobe...and said company is also based in Europe. The rest were pretty much knock-offs based on what this company did.

There is a reason for all this, though; MONEY! Residuals on the 'wear' and saving money on actors who really can't act; then shooting the thing in the ex-Soviet sphere that needs money and sells things cheaply.
Finally, remember: Effects CO$T bucks. Every scene that just "hints" at something saves production dollars (or Euros).
The stuff shot domestically is mega-low budget; but uses the same sad methods.

Comparitively, "The Wolf-Man" with Lon Chaney Jr. was a ground-breaking well acted piece, with state of the art special effects. :roll:
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Post by JoshuaMadoc »

MattSullivan wrote:I don't know what that means but i'll take your word for it.
It means the protagonist, by any means, fights ludicrously large monsters with ludicrous amounts of style.
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