Problems with Freeborn?

[Dreamer]

I was reading Matt's final thread, and I got to his comments about how Freeborn is going to suck, and a chilling fear came up in my mind: What if he's right?! What if it is just an overblown transformation piece, screwed up by too much fan input. Those of you who have read the script, what do you think of these comments and complaints of his? Are they true in your opinion, with some basis in fact, or are these just overly harsh words forged in the fire of anger?

[Terastas]

I think that was Matt just taking his frustration out on anything and everything Pack-related. He never said anything even slightly negative about the script until then.

[MattSullivan]

Freeborn needs work. That's all. What I said, I said out of anger, and my "critique" was probably a bit overblown. However, my opinion on the script was and still is it needs help. I couldn't figure out what was happening or what the story was REALLY about even after three or four reads. That would be bad enough, but the script was just BADLY WRITTEN. There were paragraphs detailing transformations that just went on and on and on and on instead of just saying "she turns into a werewolf" Those kinds of details aren't important when you want someone to read your script. I have talked to a few others on this board who read it, and they agree with me. They, like me, didn't want to offend anthony, because after all if it wasnt for him there would be no PACK.

I know some people don't much care for story,, and just want to see their greatest werewolf fantasies come to life. But for myself, who has always been told STORY IS KING. CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT IS VITAL. this sort of script just doesn't measure up. But that's just an OPINION. Not fact. I WANTED to like it. I WANTED this to be the film that gives werewolf movies proper respect. And all of you were so hyped up, how the hell could I come out and make you worry? Again, it was only when I felt pushed to the brink, tha this finally came out.

in Anthony's defense, he HAS managed to get funding for his film, and he IS making it. THAT alone deserves respect. It's just hard to voice an opinion like this, especially when, as a werewolf FAN, Iwant the film to succeed. But a bad movie is a bad movie. Here's hoping Anthony can salvage the script or re-work it. but it's his film to do it, not mine. I know there are people out there who probably feel the same way about Camp Lycanthrope.

Seriously. I hope he proves me wrong.

[Xiroteus]

I have not read the Freeborn script, until I came here, I never gave the transformation much thought, it was always about the final result and design of the werewolf that I was concerned with. I am not overly harsh on films, if there is a good story and the main characters do not die at the end, I will most likely enjoy the film.

[MattSullivan]

Bear in mind, most people are not as critical about a screenplay and the way it is written than a writer. Especially ME. Sometimes you can overthink it, or you can underdo it. And the reason i think I'm qualified to say this, is because i AM a screenwriter. I have been paid to write for tv and film. I'm not the BEST writer. So my opinion stems from, "If i were writing this, what would I need to change or take out to make this the best movie possible"

That's the problem a lot of screenwriters face. they are reluctant to remove the things they really like from a bad script even though it may greatly benefit their movie. Would YOU take out all the awesome transformation stuff you want to see if it meant a better film? Think about it.

[Silverclaw]

Its been a while since I've read it, but I remember the script working just fine. I'm not a writer or great with giving detailed critiques, but I do recognize a good movie from a bad movie. Reading it, Freeborn is something I would love to watch. And not just because of any uber-awesome transformation scenes if could have. It is a character-driven, non-monstrous werewolf movie. Regular people who just happen to change to wolves during full moon.
As for the Pack ruining AB script, I don't know. He asked for the things we would like to see in a ww movie. He doesn't have to listen to anything we said. It was really nice of him to even let all us give input at all. But if there was something he wanted to do with the screenplay, but didn't due to pressure, I wish he would just say something. If he feels he(and Silver) could try anything else that would work better for Freeborn, then they should do it. It is their movie and all. We're not telling them how they should write the script(I hope they did not feel that way anyways), just how we feel werewolves would be like if real. The look of them, how they may act when transformed, ect; nothing like 'Oh, cut that character-development scene and add another shiny transformation...'

[RedEye]

A motion picture is a story told with pictures that move. Stories can be loved by some, and despised by others...just ask me about "bodice ripper" romances. Earplugs are suggested.
Yet "bodice ripper' romances are a staple for publishers. People buy them-lots of people buy them.
Like I said: wear earplugs when you ask my opinion of them...

What AB did was ask his potential audience what they wanted...not necessarily what the Investors wanted (although that is a HUGE stimulus).
If the picture works ( as in makes mucho moolah) then we all win. If Freeborn tanks-well, there are a number of us who are comitted to watch it if all we do is go to sleep in the theatre-or if it's direct to disk; buy the disk. I may buy a dozen, just to help get the next WW flick that's different, funded.

Matt and AB have different takes on the project: thank the Goddess! If two differently-creative minds like theirs just hummed along in perfect harmony-the product wouldn't even make decent birds for skeet-shooting.

What an idea! Ask the consumer what they want. Might work! for sure, it'll be fun.

[Shadow Wulf]

I'm gonna read the script again but I do remember some things I though needed to be revised. Matt maybe right on some of the things he thinks needs to be changed, I don't know, I will have to find out for myself.

[RedEye]

I'm gonna read the script again but I do remember some things I though needed to be revised. Matt maybe right on some of the things he thinks needs to be changed, I don't know, I will have to find out for myself.

Don't worry: one shoot I was on had eight revisions on one scene in one day. It's usually words that look fine on paper, but sound...odd when spoken.

I'm So-o-o-o-o glad I was Tech, and not Talent on that turkey...

[Scott Gardener]

Looks like this thread beat me to it. I mentioned something over at the "Problems with the Pack" thread, but it's mentioned over here.

Basically, I was asking the same thing that Dreamer just did, pointing out that while many of us may have gotten hyped over Freeborn, we can't put it on a pedestal beyond criticism. I also went on to note that Anthony Brownrigg has a lot more use for Matt's list of problems, things that needs fixing, and criticisms of character concepts than for my drooling fanboy devotion and praise. Furthermore, if you can see problems, now would be a great time to mention them, because it's still in pre-production, getting funding. It's a lot easier fixing script flaws now than after the movie is out. (Unless you're George Lucas, who bloody well can't give it a rest more than 20 years later)

I know, you were emotionally charged at the time, so you were blurting it out. But, can you give us a controlled release of those same observations, in a form that Anthony, Silver, and their people can use? You can always personal-mail him if they involve addressing plot elements that shouldn't be available to the general public, like the bit about the kid who sees werewolves, and the psychologist helping him, who discovers at the end that he himself is in fact a werewolf.

[MoonKit]

To be honest, I havent gotten hyped. I dont really believe it will ever come out. Or at least I dont have my hopes up for it actually being made.

That said...I still hope it does!

[Set]

As a whole, I like the script. Though there were a few things that just seemed...out of place to me. Like the big elaborate funeral ritual. There was no reason given for why they did that, so to just throw it in there is kind of strange.

[Dreamer]

Looks like this thread beat me to it. I mentioned something over at the "Problems with the Pack" thread, but it's mentioned over here.

Basically, I was asking the same thing that Dreamer just did, pointing out that while many of us may have gotten hyped over Freeborn, we can't put it on a pedestal beyond criticism. I also went on to note that Anthony Brownrigg has a lot more use for Matt's list of problems, things that needs fixing, and criticisms of character concepts than for my drooling fanboy devotion and praise. Furthermore, if you can see problems, now would be a great time to mention them, because it's still in pre-production, getting funding. It's a lot easier fixing script flaws now than after the movie is out. (Unless you're George Lucas, who bloody well can't give it a rest more than 20 years later)

I know, you were emotionally charged at the time, so you were blurting it out. But, can you give us a controlled release of those same observations, in a form that Anthony, Silver, and their people can use? You can always personal-mail him if they involve addressing plot elements that shouldn't be available to the general public, like the bit about the kid who sees werewolves, and the psychologist helping him, who discovers at the end that he himself is in fact a werewolf.

Agreed. The call goes out to all of you guys now: Those of you whom have problmems with the script, send e-mails to Anthony ASAP and tell him about them so that he can consider them and re-write the script with those in mind if he thinks the complaints are legit. This goes double for you Matt. After all, we don't want Freeborn to turn into a big steaming pile of disappointment when it comes out, now do we?

[Figarou]

Agreed. The call goes out to all of you guys now: Those of you whom have problmems with the script, send e-mails to Anthony ASAP and tell him about them so that he can consider them and re-write the script with those in mind if he thinks the complaints are legit. This goes double for you Matt. After all, we don't want Freeborn to turn into a big steaming pile of disappointment when it comes out, now do we?

Problems with the script?

I'm not well educated enough to point out flaws......whats needed...what needs to be removed...changed....ETC.

Let AB and the experts handle it.

[MattSullivan]

i can't give a super detailed synopsis with my opinion unless Anthony says so, because I'd be giving away plot stuff, and I don't think he'd want to be giving away too much of the plot. it's up to him.

[Dreamer]

That's why I said to e-mail it to AB rather than post it on the board, so that we don't get anything spoiled. But I still think you and those others whom have some problems with the script should send your criticisms to AB. Just in e-mail form, not in the form of a post on the boards, so that we don't have anything spoiled for us.

[MattSullivan]

Don't get too super-concerned guys. When i get mad, I get MAD. And I get MEAN. Yes, a lot of what i said was pure emotion. I will not come here and say the entire script was garbage. There WERE smidges of quality.

I don't want you guys to suddenly get scared. Anthony is a resourceful guy. Lots of stuff gets changed or fixed during pre-production/production and in post. Just wait until the movie comes out. THEN you can talk about what you liked/disliked. Until that happens i think we're just psyching ourselves up too much. it ruins the fun and energy of a film if you know so much about it.

Did you ever see a long-winded movie trailer that gave away all the best parts? By the time the film comes out you already can figure out the major plot points, and the movie is just a much longer trailer.

[MoonKit]

Don't get too super-concerned guys. When i get mad, I get MAD. And I get MEAN.

Dont worry, we know.

[alphanubilus]

Since we are on the subject, I guess it is my turn to throw my opinion...

Besides screenwriting, for myself, I do a lot of freelance script analysis for friends and anyone who needs it. At the moment I don't charge anything, as I am still fine tuning my own craft, but I try to get upbeat, yet very constructive feed back to help the writer. When I am reviewing a script the first thing I will notice is if the script flows or not. (Meaning: if the script's story always moves the narrative in a general direction) If I hit a block or a snag, that usually spells something wrong. Most of the time what I find is a lot of great ideas, but nothing really to tie them together.

This is my largest issue with the Freeborn script. Freeborn contains a ton of fantastic concepts, but delivers nothing more than concepts. I had to read it though a few times, and I still had issues trying to figure out what the STORY really was about. The trailer that was made is much more consistant than the actual script. Let is take a look: In the trailer, you are introduced to Jack, who is a werewolf, living in a secret werewolf society, and he puts his entire pack in danger when he falls in love with a human. This is what I thought I was going to read when I recieved the script, but alas I was misinformed... The whole love aspect doesn't appear until around page 40, of which by then the whole movement of the story should be set up.

So let me break things down...

Who is the hero? Jack, Sherri, or Zane... Zane tells the story... Jack mills around until page 40 and stir things up... and Sherri seems to only be there to get you to page 40, where Jack takes lead... Dowth... wonderful concept... a werewolf hunting society, of which adds drama to an already dramatic delimma, but almost nothing is mentioned of them until the very end, and by that time, the story is at its climax.

Each character created are wonderful in their own right, but the reality is, in clean writing there can only be one "hero." I placed HERO in perenthesis because you can multiple heroes, such as in Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Matrix, but all of those characters are all seeking one common goal, and in all three of those movies, it was to save the world.

What is the goal in Freeborn? What purpose do our characters seek? What is Jack's desire? Why did he leave Ireland for America? What are his faults? What does he need to do to improve himself and bring balance to his world?

The first thing that needs to happen is distill all concepts that don't fit with the main character's purpose... In short pick a character/ revolve around that character's struggle... I would axe Sherri completely... She adds nothing to the story. I know some will say, "What about her TF sequence?" Firstly transformation sequences are highly overrated in werewolf stories today... Not because there are too many, but because most of them serve no purpsoe than CGI eye candy. An American Werewolf in London's TF sequence remains one of the greatest TF sequences to date, and for good reason. The most obvious reason is due to Rick Baker's excellent special effects work, but the other and unfortunately overlooked reason, is placement and purpose. Unlike previous werewolf flicks where the human actor simply placed fur and fangs on his face in order to TF, John Landis had insisted on turning a man completely into a wolf. If you look at early concepts of the beast, it looked verbatum like a large wolf, complete with tail. Rick Baker was a traditionalist when it came to werewolves though, and wanted it to be really half man/ half wolf... Rick and John came to an agreement with a version that kept certain human qualities, but was four legged as a wolf is. This was such a HUGE departure from the norm, that they needed a detailed TF sequence in order to link the boyish David Naughton character to the savage werewolf. While the Howling has an equally lenghty TF, Joe Dante actually cut it from the original release of the movie, because it made no sense it all, as the hero character literally just stood there for 2 minutes while the werewolf was TFing, when most people with half a brain would have ran out at the first sign of a TF. Later on the fantastic TF sequence was edited back in, but it wasn't always there.

Freeborn needs some cleaning, of which will give the script and film the execution it needs...

Here is just a rough concept a structuring that would work with Freeborn and help distill the script to its purest form while keeping the charm...

Story begins with a brief prologue of a Dowth (seen as nothing but shadows at this point, creating a mystery as to what they really are) wiping out an entire town... A young Jack escapes with his life...

Jump 20 years later... Jack is a grown man, hanging with a rag tag pack of fellow werewolves in the US. Jack keeps his distance, doesn't talk much about his past, and of whom is mentored by Zane, an older werewolf, who has hopes that Jack will carry on as Alpha, once he himself is gone. Jack doesn't want that responsibility (think about his past) though. His nickname amoung the pack is the Freeborn, a werewolf with no responsibilities, and not ties to anyone... Jack likes this loner thing very much. If he doesn't really care about anyone, then if something bad would happen, it won't hurt him. Here comes Max... Max hates Jack, and wants to be Alpha at all costs. He can't understand why Zane would want Jack, who doesn't even want to be an Alpha, to lead the pack. Zane though is wise, and knows that Max is a dangerous werewolf, of whom if not kept on a short leash, would abuse his powers. In short Jack and Max don't get along. Then here comes the trigger that sets things forward... Jack meets Fay... and falls in love. The stone cold free willed werewolf actually has a soft spot! At first he tries to hide the truth from both Fay and the Pack, but then ole Maxie finds out, and then things get ugly... really ugly... one thing leads to another, and then Zane winds up dead, murdered... This causes a divition within the pack, some werewolves uniting with Max, while others stay loyal to Jack. This irks Max who believes that Jack should have been banished for being with a human. Their confrontation brings the Dowth. Max abandons his pack and is quickly dispatched, while leaving Jack to deside the fate for his entire pack, and Fay as well...

I just think that flows better...

[Dreamer]

Well, since Alpha Anubis put his comments on here and they contained a crapload of spoilers, why not do the same Matt. I mean, I do think Anthony wants at least some constructive criticism, so you should probably post it up here for him to (Maybe) look at. I mean, I think he should get some fan input on the problems in his script, seeing as that fan input was the spark of inspiration on this project, and that we all do want to eliminate any potential problems before they throw a wrench in the works of our "greatest werewolf movie ever" so that we aren't sitting in the theater if it comes out and crying tears of bitter dissappointment.

[alphanubilus]

Not really spoilers... Its already there in the script. It is just out of focus... Anthony has much of this material in his script. What I merely suggested was a bit of tweaking and weeding...

As a screenwriter myself, I typically weed scenes all the time. You start out with a smash up scene, and then later find that it isn't adding anything. My mentor tought me to fall in love with the story, and not the script, because you will find yourself getting rid of a lot of material. Believe me I do. With my latest project, I had nearly 60 pages completed (half done for a screenplay) before I decided to trash the entire thing and start over, because certian high mark criteria wasn't being met.

Guys the reality is, fan input can be good and bad. After I read the script a few years back, I asked Anthony if he has shown his script to professional screenwriters, outside of his friends. Somebody without any connection to him at all, of which could give an unbiased opinion of his material, because non-friends will look at the material and judge it on a professional level in ways that your friends and those connected with the project won't. Personally I don't write for fans. It isn't my goal to please a small sect of people, but to write for the larger audiance abroad. Fans can be crazy about what they see in a film. I remember the hoopla surrounding keeping the Hulk's shorts PURPLE, or keeping Wolverine's outfit YELLOW! There are some crazied comic book fans that were pissed off because Wolvy's clothes weren't his (very secure guy) classic yellow. What works on comic books (super hero clothes were typically made colorful simply to make them stand out on the page) does not work in the movies. Fan input can simply be detremental to a project.

I want my material to create fans, and not the other way around. Now now... dear Pack, I'm not saying Anthony's approach with film making and the Pack was a waste of time, because it isn't. In fact I wish more producers/ directors/ screenwriters would keep an open link, via their websites with the fan base, because it is a great way to get weigh information, especially after a release. The only other producer I know who uses this approach is Dean Devlin, of whom is not only an awesome film maker, but a really nice guy as well.

However there is a time when the writer has to pull away and craft a story that will work on higher levels than just the fan base. As you already admitted, most of you aren't screenwriters or even film makers. Most of you, other than viewing a wealth of quality and sometimes poor quality films, don't have a clue as to the process of story building (professionally that is). Nothing wrong with that. Everybody has their own place, and we certainly need people like you to keep funding our projects. A fan may know what they want, but they may have no clue as to how to create it. That is where we rely on da writers (GO WGA!!!).

Again, in my last post, there wasn't any real spoilers, because the original Freeborn script had most of that information... I simply weeded out the junk material (not meaning literal junk, but accessive/unneeded material) and tightened the story. Rearranged a few scenes, and tweaked a few characters to balance out the cast. Simple... and executed.

As for Matt's... Well unless Matt really wishes to post his concept for Freeborn, then that is up to him. I didn't create anything new, I simply tweaked what was already there. If Matt's concepts are totally radical, then it might be best to let it be viewed privately... but that is my opinion...

[MattSullivan]

Give me some time to re-read the script. Then I will put forth my own opinion.

[Scott Gardener]

alphanubilus: Though you do bring up some interesting points about consolidation, I feel your proposed revised synopsis changes the flavor and intent too much. It basically would turn it from a drama to an action movie.

I feel that a multi-directional approach, of having two separate but intertwined lead storylines (Jack and Fay, and Zane and Sherri) with overlapping themes of love and getting caught between the worlds is a great approach. It's a step outside the linear nature of so many movies, usually targeted towards 18-34 males.

The funeral scenes are part of a broader metaphysical element. (So is the cameo of the Pack symbol.) Since a lot of the mainstream public don't care much for metaphors, it might get lost in the first rounds the movie makes in theaters. But, that'll be the thing that keeps Freeborn going later and makes it last for the long haul, selling "iTunes HD" 1080p 7.1 channel audio downloads twenty years from now while no one remembers "Cursed" or the "Underworld" series any more. I can see the funeral scenes getting cut short but restored in the "Director's Cut."

I welcome criticisms, but I do kind of have to lower my head, flick up my tail, and growl a bit. I don't want to see formulas of safe writing undermine something this brave, which could otherwise cause some badly needed waves.

[RedEye]

Actually, from what you folks say, it would appear that the story-as-picture would be a series of vignettes, connected by continuing characters.
That has been done before, and worked rather well.

No, I don't have a synopsis. There's a reason.

[alphanubilus]

alphanubilus: Though you do bring up some interesting points about consolidation, I feel your proposed revised synopsis changes the flavor and intent too much. It basically would turn it from a drama to an action movie.

I feel that a multi-directional approach, of having two separate but intertwined lead storylines (Jack and Fay, and Zane and Sherri) with overlapping themes of love and getting caught between the worlds is a great approach. It's a step outside the linear nature of so many movies, usually targeted towards 18-34 males.

The funeral scenes are part of a broader metaphysical element. (So is the cameo of the Pack symbol.) Since a lot of the mainstream public don't care much for metaphors, it might get lost in the first rounds the movie makes in theaters. But, that'll be the thing that keeps Freeborn going later and makes it last for the long haul, selling "iTunes HD" 1080p 7.1 channel audio downloads twenty years from now while no one remembers "Cursed" or the "Underworld" series any more. I can see the funeral scenes getting cut short but restored in the "Director's Cut."

I welcome criticisms, but I do kind of have to lower my head, flick up my tail, and growl a bit. I don't want to see formulas of safe writing undermine something this brave, which could otherwise cause some badly needed waves.

Safe writing? I don't have issues with material that is out of the norm... Come on I LOVE Quentin Tarintino films... However it has to be good... Freeborn simply isn't. It is my "job" to look at screenplays, review them, fix issues, and help better resolve problems with the story, and so I've been trained to find problems, and help writers get past them. Being different is great, and I encourage stepping out of the norm and create something new. However I seriously disagree with Freeborn, as it stands, creating any waves other than making a few werewolf fantatics squeal with glee. I stand by my observations. I stand by my analysis. I want Freeborn to succeed just like everybody else here. I don't know Anthony all that well, but I still consider him a friend, and you certainly never know when you might need such a friend in the future, visa versa, but again changes are going to have to come and sacrifices will have to be made to create a moving story. Drama only happens if you care about the characters and the story they are in, and if the script takes 40 pages to get there, most of the audience will be lost...