Surgery for tails or wings

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Surgery for tails or wings

Post by takyoji »

Interesting article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/stor ... e_continue

Just imagine how much diversity there would be in human society if something like that came to a consumer's level. :P
Next it'll probably be replacing plain skin with a pelt, then claws, and so on until the point where some people don't even resemble a human form anymore.
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Post by PariahPoet »

Ooh, dang, can't wait till this guy perfects his craft. I would totally go for it if I could get the whole package- tail, muzzle, digitigrade legs...
I don't want to look like Stalking Cat though. I would want a real muzzle that requires skull alteration to achieve.
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Post by Searif »

I would get that, for sure :lol: they would have to make clothing to accommodate the anthro peeps though
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Post by PariahPoet »

I make my own clothing, so no problem there.
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Post by Timber-WoIf »

i was wondering how long before implants to improve human senses. could you imagine a scout with the hearing and scent of a wolf, or a sniper withthe sight of an eagle? super-soldiers indeed. super-soldiers indeed. would be quite awesome.
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Post by takyoji »

PariahPoet wrote:Ooh, dang, can't wait till this guy perfects his craft. I would totally go for it if I could get the whole package- tail, muzzle, digitigrade legs...
I don't want to look like Stalking Cat though. I would want a real muzzle that requires skull alteration to achieve.
I'd think replacing large limbs such as legs would be a lot more of a risky operation. Otherwise it'd probably be many years later until such things would be available. Especially in the fact that if you replaced the structure of your legs, you'd have to wait a loooong time for the cuts and such to heal. And by then, your legs would be terribly weak from atrophy.
Timber-WoIf wrote:i was wondering how long before implants to improve human senses. could you imagine a scout with the hearing and scent of a wolf, or a sniper withthe sight of an eagle? super-soldiers indeed. super-soldiers indeed. would be quite awesome.
The only problem with the hearing ability of a wolf is that the sound of gunfire would be even more deafening. So then at some point their hearing would be just about the same as an average soldier after so much combat. Although it would probably be better for stealth-like operations that don't have to do anything with loud noises such as gunfire.
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Post by PariahPoet »

Actually, it's not a matter of replacing the leg entirely. It's a problem of lengthening the tarsal bones in the feet. Cosmetic surgeons are already able to re-structure bones by breaking and gradually stretching them. I saw it done on a little girl whose face was severely sunken. It would probably take years to accomplish, but digitigrade legs would actually not be as complicated as you might think.

As for improved senses by way of implants, I'm sure the army already has that for its most valuable scouts and snipers. A friend of my family works for the government programming fighter aircraft. While she cannot tell us any specifics about her work, she has said that military technology is always about 50 years ahead of the technology we see.
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Post by Kelpten »

Um, doesn't sound like a good idea. I'm against body piercings and tattoos as it is, and somehow animal attatchments seem to fall in that catagory. Hipocritically, I'm constantly imagining myself with a tail, but to add one by sergical means doesn't... I don't know. It just seems wrong.
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Post by MoonKit »

The part about the skit with the woman showing up with the wolf photo and saying she wanted to look like that while everybody laughed at the concept, made my heart break.

I wouldnt do it myself. I dont like surgery much. Plus, I already got a tail. Its not my fault you cant see it. I can feel it...and that is way cooler. 8)
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Post by WerewolfKeeper3 »

(Interesting...
Would be bad to change the outside form permanently. You'd be branded a "freak" by the rest of the world (Other than those here of course.) and be an outcast. Still, if they could actually to surgery like this, what could they do else wear, like genetics? Hmmm, Jekyll and Hyde formula for a were-whatever; that'd be cool. Still, this would be really cool, especially for those humans out there brave enough to do it. I've seen Ripley's where a man turned himself into... what was it, a cat or a tiger?)
I think it was a tiger.
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Post by PariahPoet »

WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:(Interesting...
Would be bad to change the outside form permanently. You'd be branded a "freak" by the rest of the world (Other than those here of course.) and be an outcast.
Already got that covered. ^^ Get any drawbacks I'm not already experiencing?

The tiger man is Stalking Cat that I referred to earlier. His mods don't look that great, IMHO. If I got it done, it would not be until someone had the skill to make me look like I stepped out of a Goldenwolf painting.
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Post by Dreamer »

Oh joy, now furries will be even more annoying. And furry-bashing violence will escalate to the point of being a social issue.

Just kidding! :lol:

Anyway, this is awesome. If they create a method of transformation allong with mass increase, I'll be happy to hop on the bandwagon. Otherwise, I don't know whether I would, mainly because I don't want to attract hatred from all the people who despise and loathe furries and will mistake me for one of the eventual uber-furries which will probably be flooding out of the woodwork when the technology comes to fruition.
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Post by Spiritbw »

You know, they talk about wings and tails but reading the article it sounds like they are just reshaping what is already there to make said apendage. It'd be as hairless/featherless as rat's tail or the wings on a chicken you pulled out of the freezer without going a bit farther.

I don't think there is any way in the forseable future of your being able to get a body to accept and grow feathers for those "Angel wings". Best your going to get is some sort of costuming sheath which won't make it much better than the costume wings already available.

Fur could be done with hair transplants but that thins out the hair the farther your trying to spread it out. That also assumes your using your own hair which is geneticly compatable with you. Not exactly like we have donors of hair for transplants out there. I dunno if it's possible to clone skin that has active hair growth either in the near future but eh, what do I know?
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Post by RedEye »

PariahPoet wrote:
WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:(Interesting...
Would be bad to change the outside form permanently. You'd be branded a "freak" by the rest of the world (Other than those here of course.) and be an outcast.
Already got that covered. ^^ Get any drawbacks I'm not already experiencing?

The tiger man is Stalking Cat that I referred to earlier. His mods don't look that great, IMHO. If I got it done, it would not be until someone had the skill to make me look like I stepped out of a Goldenwolf painting.
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Pariah, you'll likely be nearly as old as I am now before the surgery gets that effective (I'm sixty) and to afford it you'd better start saving now. It isn't gonna be cheap.

Practically, though; if you'd allow a surface job (silicone skin base with fake fur, permanently attached to your dermis) and a non responsive tail; that might be less than twenty years off. The silicone skin is already being used on burn patients and there is a problem that the damaged skin grows through it, anchoring it in place. In this case, it might not be a problem, though.
Tails take dedicated muscles to wag, twitch or swing; and that would need cloned muscles to work. It would be attached to your existing tailbone for anchorage.
Claws could be virally-modified nails, more deeply anchored than the current ones.
Digitigrade feet are the easiest: remove a few inches of your Achilles tendon and retrain yourself to walk on the balls of your feet. Expect a lot of pain with this one though, you will need to build serious muscles to do this.
And we already have titanium skull parts, so the muzzle would be more rebuild and skin stretching than anything else.

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Post by PariahPoet »

Actually, I already walk on the balls of my feat nearly all the time. Have done that since I was a little girl, so I have no problem standing and walking that way for an hour or more.
As for an articulate tail, wolftronix already had a prototype for a bionic tail. It uses external electrodes to pick up muscle activity in your calves that helps the control board synchronize the robotic tail movement with your walking pace. Now as far as making it move on cue other than walking without using a button board, well now that is indeed a long way off. But even a combination of leg-controlled and button board bionic tail would be awesome.

But I know for a fact that the technology will be here long before I can afford it. Geeze, I can barely afford my closet-sized apartment and food.
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Post by Silverclaw »

That would be interesting to see...
Though I don't think I can believe that sortof technology is just 5 years away.

I hope it doesn't involve killing real animals and chopping off their wings/tails. :|
I wouldn't approve of that at all. They just need to figure out how to make the human body grow the extra limbs, at a reasonably fast rate. :wink:

I'd like to know if said wings/tails would have feathers/fur, and if so, would they be able to grow...

Besides all that, sign me up :D :wink:
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Post by RedEye »

They'd probably be powered prostheses, like modern "gripping" hands and articulated feet, only with a beastly (beast-like?) covering.

I remember in College that one of my classmates had designed and made a prosthetic foot (lost one in 'Nam) that gave stability by means of a heel-spur, like a dinosaur's foot. It worked well, but was just too wierd for the times.
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Post by garouda »

In nature, humans seldom grow tails, and yet, for some, the proof is in the seeing. There are persons with small tails, with the striated muscle and nervous wiring that they can move said tail.

Perhaps most of us here have seen the video clip of it in action.

Human Tail Video

The greater odds of having such stem from the fact, that even those without a visible tail may in fact have the neural wiring to operate one if it was there. The most likely source of actual biological tails is probably going to be something grown from stem cells. Now that the places in which they can be found are beginning to proliferate, it is only experimentation with them that will show what is possible.

*****************

I am unsure how many humans can move their ears. I used to believe that everyone could. Well, I can. And if someone can move a human ear, then probably with the right kind of bioengineering, an ear can be created to suit someone who already has the wiring to make use of such an ear and the associated muscle tissue were it provided.

*****************

Regarding Stalking Cat aka Dennis Avner. He seems to be perfectly comfortable and at home with his body mods. He is a nice fellow too. I would not be surprised if such visible ones impact the ability to find work with some employers, though I would point out that Dennis does have work.

*****************

Body mods such as tattoos, piercings and others that emulate tribal and social relationships are pretty ancient in human culture. The degree, nature and amount of such that a given person has can affect how they are perceived in the human world. The very same mods that elicit aspersion in one social circle, may for the very same person, have exactly the opposite affect in other social circles.

Having said that, such body mods are socially a far cry from full scale bioengineering. While I cannot really anticipate what will or will not ultimately be doable in actuallity, I can speculate upon its social aspects. Now some folks may find cosmetic changes in the area of tattoos, inserts and implants to be offputting, they do not really make humans look alien, just different.

However

Creating new, functional organs and totally rebuilding people might create a subclass of persons who really do seem alien. Now whether this perception will be deep or even permanent, is hard to nail down precisely, but we can look at history and human nature and extrapolate.

Many of us live in societies that are more or less open and flexible. Even so we encounter from time to time persons and groups of persons whose paradigms are closed, inflexible and sometimes inimicable to other portions of our own societies. Sometimes these people are quiet and do not display their feelings, other times these people are strident and in our faces about them. Also, in groups, sometimes even the quiet ones will fall into step with the group attitudes and become quite aggressive.

A significant portion of humanity lives in societies which are very closed and traditional. This is not to knock tradition in general terms, but to remind us that traditions are habits. They can be neutral, good, bad or a blend of these. They can range from tolerant to wildly intolerant. Flexible to stonily inflexible. Traditional solutions for non-conforming individuals can range from the benign to the deadly. And in some cases, even mild non-conformity can trigger deadly reactions.

Persons bearing customization that genuinely makes them look 'other'. Other than human, can place them in classes where they become vulnerable to other factors of human perception. Humans can be pretty accurately described as pack animals. Dividing into groups easily identified as 'us' and 'them'. Vilification and separation into such groups is a fine and refined art. The world around us is doing it constantly.

One of the more common paths of such dividing into such groupings and is to identify non-members of one's group as 'animals'. Notwithstanding that humans are animals too, this is easily overlooked, for the basic underlying premise is that 'we are us' and that 'they are them'. Worthiness of kindness and consideration is thereafter amplified along the lines of 'how much USness they have' or 'how much THEMness they have'. Typically the less human and less of 'us' that they are, the more disposable and dispensable they are.

Consider, that at least in the Western cultures, the history is full of images, icons and acts basically boiling down to mankind being at War With Nature. Total war in many respects. Even today, with nations and peoples being presumably more educated than ever before, we remain about as ethnocentric as we have ever been. So, if being of the wrong ethnicity or belief system is entirely sufficient to justify mass murder, how much easier is it to dehumanize someone who has to the eye and perception surrendered in all or part, their own humanity ?

"They are animals !" Is not so far fetched a cry of hatred to visualize and hear in the mind, is it ? Even permissive societies go through periodic social and cultural convulsions. In the last century alone, one could go on a world tour of current and past convulsions based on delirious hatred and murder for the most questionable of causes and rationalizations. This is a genetically hardwired in part of human nature. It is horrifically ugly and not likely to go away anytime soon.

So consider nations, peoples, governments. If we take a close and honest look at pretty much ALL of them, we can see certain things practiced pretty routinely. Laws on the books both new and old whose express or oblique purpose is to coerce normative behaviour. Normative behaviour ? Yeah. Conformity to what whomever in the position of power is able to determine is appropriate way for individuals and groups to live.

The world is rife with laws whose only real purpose is the coercion under penalty of whatever, to force persons to conform. Vast numbers of these laws regulate and prohibit activities which by any measure of human social interaction are harmless. In other words, alleged crimes which have no victims. Actually such laws do create victms, for nonconformists are punished and sometimes very severely.

Personally I think a world in which people would have the most imaginative and creative body customizations would be rather fascinating. But for those who have them, and cannot avoid taking their body mods wherever they go, and thus cannot have a day off from being 'different', I should think the world will be a most interesting place.
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Post by Howlitzer »

Eh, this idea gives me the creeps on some level.

You have a point with the risk of winding up with a sub-class of humans who, well, just are completely different from everybody else.

The fact that this difference would be by choice would further alienate these people....and it would make everyday people hate and fear them even more. As bad as that sounds, that is the way society would likely react to people modifying their bodies in such drastic ways.

I mean, it's one thing to wish for the whole werewolf-thing....the ability to transform your body into something else AT WILL...and then transform BACK... the key being that YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO GO BACK.......

it would give one the means of separating themselves from the human race when they wish to, but then being able to blend back in again when they need to.

but they key problem is that doing this would be fairly permanent. I mean, the idea can seem very tempting....but wow. Would you seriously want to risk doing that to yourself and then regretting it later?

Specifically....when you're old. I mean, tattoos and piercings don't always age well...but massive skeletal restructuring, silicone implants, titanium skull implants, claws, fur...WINGS?! .... you have NO idea how that will look 20+ years down the road.


If someone perfects a "super-costume", however...something that looks completely real, responds just as your own body would, and just as importantly FEELS "real" to the person inside, perhaps even enhances their natural speed/strength and other senses.....that will be entirely different. This is much, MUCH closer to being done... For those of you that are into fursuits....well, this would probably be a dream come true....and I doubt you would run the risk of regretting it as much later. I mean, I for one am not into fursuits, but it would make a DAMN awesome halloween costume. (NOTE:I am NOT trying to start a furry debate, I'm simply stating that it is my personal preference and that I am NOT a furry.)

That's what I think...there ya go.
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Post by IndianaJones »

By messing around with DNA and genetics, you can be like god and create a new race. Which can be a good thing and a bad thing.
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Post by Howlitzer »

IndianaJones wrote:By messing around with DNA and genetics, you can be like god and create a new race. Which can be a good thing and a bad thing.
Oh god...and we've moved on to screwing around with DNA now...

I'd say that'd be more of a bad thing than a good thing.

When technology gets to that point, you could potentially wind up engineering a truly "superior" upper class....since people with more money would be the ones better able to afford "improving" themselves or their children...

Watch the movie "Gattaca".... now picture that scenario, only possibly much, much worse if we try to make more outlandish "improvements" on human beings. That is well within the realm of possibility...
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Post by RedEye »

Howlitzer wrote:
IndianaJones wrote:By messing around with DNA and genetics, you can be like god and create a new race. Which can be a good thing and a bad thing.
Oh god...and we've moved on to screwing around with DNA now...

I'd say that'd be more of a bad thing than a good thing.

When technology gets to that point, you could potentially wind up engineering a truly "superior" upper class....since people with more money would be the ones better able to afford "improving" themselves or their children...

Watch the movie "Gattaca".... now picture that scenario, only possibly much, much worse if we try to make more outlandish "improvements" on human beings. That is well within the realm of possibility...
Howlitzer if I've learned one thing in the time I've been here this life around, it's that "If there is interest and money, it'll happen eventually."

I was born before things like PC's, Cellphones, CD's and even eight track cartridges. None of them make sense from an economic level or necessity level, yet they're here.
And technology of all sorts is ever advancing and ever speeding up.

A word of advice: Brace yourself. :wink:
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Post by Howlitzer »

RedEye wrote:
Howlitzer wrote:
IndianaJones wrote:By messing around with DNA and genetics, you can be like god and create a new race. Which can be a good thing and a bad thing.
Oh god...and we've moved on to screwing around with DNA now...

I'd say that'd be more of a bad thing than a good thing.

When technology gets to that point, you could potentially wind up engineering a truly "superior" upper class....since people with more money would be the ones better able to afford "improving" themselves or their children...

Watch the movie "Gattaca".... now picture that scenario, only possibly much, much worse if we try to make more outlandish "improvements" on human beings. That is well within the realm of possibility...
Howlitzer if I've learned one thing in the time I've been here this life around, it's that "If there is interest and money, it'll happen eventually."

I was born before things like PC's, Cellphones, CD's and even eight track cartridges. None of them make sense from an economic level or necessity level, yet they're here.
And technology of all sorts is ever advancing and ever speeding up.

A word of advice: Brace yourself. :wink:

Eh...I never said that that wasn't the case...


sure capitalism is great in the whole "If there is interest and money, it'll happen eventually." idea... I'm DEFINITELY a fan of that...

but with some things...I think we're going to go too far.

There is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

There's also our uncanny ability to take an otherwise good thing and give it a really nasty aftertaste :roll:


I mean, CD's, cellphones, these are all things that WE designed and invented. Improvement in technology in new and outlandish ways is definitely going to happen, and it will keep happening.

but when it comes to our own bodies and our DNA...we didn't design them, we didn't invent them, and we don't fully know how they work. If we have the ability to modify and supposedly "improve" ourselves on that level and in that way....we're screwing around with things we DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND.

I mean, would you waltz into a nuclear power plant and start tinkering around with things if you only had a rudimentary knowledge of what all the buttons and switches do? I don't think so... it might blow up in your face.
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Post by garouda »

Well speaking of DNA coding and designer class persons I have a question:

Does anyone here think that the same world in which geneticists might create an uber class, would not also at some point create a teeming class of beings to serve as an exploitable underclass ?
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Post by Dreamer »

Well, I have mixed feelings about genetic alteration for transhumanist purposes. ON one hand, it would be awesome and probably the only possible way of creating true lycanthropy. ON the other, we might end up with a situation like in Gattaca, so governmental measures would be needted to keep an undrclass from being created.

Scott Gardner, you're our resident transhumanist, what do you think about the issue? What could be done to prevent a sort of Gattaca type society of genetic haves and have nots?
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