Surgery for tails or wings

[Howlitzer]

but what we're talking about here is mainly for looks, less for function. It is geared about as much towards survival as a nose job or breast implants are...

Who said all alterations needed be practical?

Tattoos serve little purpose but people still get them, as well as other things like piercings and such in spite of the health risks associated with injecting ink between skin layers or ramming metal through flesh.

This is, in principle, little different, though in practice much more complex.

Risks? Sure. But fortune favors the bold.

well for one, my quote there was in response to RedEye's comment, proposing a hypothetical situation where our environment changed in such a way that body modifications such as this would be an advantage in survival.

and in terms of body modifications, in general, serving little purpose....yes, this would be very different. Sure, you can make a comparison in the principal behind it..... but there is DEFINITELY some kind of line being crossed between piercings, tattoos, and wings, tails, claws fur, and all-out skeletal restructuring.

Simply because the principal is the same, doesn't mean carrying it out to such an extreme is acceptable, or even a good idea.

Sure, some cultures go to the extremes of what body modification can currently do....but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. This is certainly much more extreme...

and once again, it's permanent, and you don't know what types of problems

At the very least, this should not be done when such a technology is so relatively new. Immediately jumping to the most extreme adaptation of medical techniques so soon after they are developed is downright stupid, if the fact that such a drastic thing would not be taken well in society isn't discouragement enough.

Sure, I can see some practical uses for the techniques behind this...but it's going to be a LONG time before society might be able to handle such modifications for anything but practical uses, and a LONG time before it will have been perfected enough for it to be a wise idea to even have it done.

There is such a thing as going too far, in any situation, and I believe this is entering that realm.

[Aki]

and in terms of body modifications, in general, serving little purpose....yes, this would be very different. Sure, you can make a comparison in the principal behind it..... but there is DEFINITELY some kind of line being crossed between piercings, tattoos, and wings, tails, claws fur, and all-out skeletal restructuring.

A line of difficultly and risk. But not much more I don't think. People have given themselves "horns" made of coral - implanted beneath the skin. Pretty nifty, though like getting a facial tatt, one shouldn't expect to end up a big CEO or something. Business world frowns on people who stand out with weird features.

and once again, it's permanent, and you don't know what types of problems

Only one way to find out. Someone's always gotta be the first.

At the very least, this should not be done when such a technology is so relatively new. Immediately jumping to the most extreme adaptation of medical techniques so soon after they are developed is downright stupid, if the fact that such a drastic thing would not be taken well in society isn't discouragement enough.

Oh, of course. But, there will always be early adopters and that's, in a way, a good thing. Theory and such is all well and good but for anyone to get any practice, well, someone's gotta go under the knife. Or needle fulla genetic-altering stuff. Or whatever this radical procedure would be using.

Sure, I can see some practical uses for the techniques behind this...but it's going to be a LONG time before society might be able to handle such modifications for anything but practical uses, and a LONG time before it will have been perfected enough for it to be a wise idea to even have it done.

Perhaps. Society is difficult to predict.

There is such a thing as going too far, in any situation, and I believe this is entering that realm.

When it comes to one's own body, I don't see much of anything as going too far. Not all of it's particularly my cup of tea, but I don't see anything wrong with it.

[Howlitzer]

and in terms of body modifications, in general, serving little purpose....yes, this would be very different. Sure, you can make a comparison in the principal behind it..... but there is DEFINITELY some kind of line being crossed between piercings, tattoos, and wings, tails, claws fur, and all-out skeletal restructuring.

A line of difficultly and risk. But not much more I don't think. People have given themselves "horns" made of coral - implanted beneath the skin. Pretty nifty, though like getting a facial tatt, one shouldn't expect to end up a big CEO or something. Business world frowns on people who stand out with weird features.

and once again, it's permanent, and you don't know what types of problems

Only one way to find out. Someone's always gotta be the first.

At the very least, this should not be done when such a technology is so relatively new. Immediately jumping to the most extreme adaptation of medical techniques so soon after they are developed is downright stupid, if the fact that such a drastic thing would not be taken well in society isn't discouragement enough.

Oh, of course. But, there will always be early adopters and that's, in a way, a good thing. Theory and such is all well and good but for anyone to get any practice, well, someone's gotta go under the knife. Or needle fulla genetic-altering stuff. Or whatever this radical procedure would be using.

Sure, I can see some practical uses for the techniques behind this...but it's going to be a LONG time before society might be able to handle such modifications for anything but practical uses, and a LONG time before it will have been perfected enough for it to be a wise idea to even have it done.

Perhaps. Society is difficult to predict.

There is such a thing as going too far, in any situation, and I believe this is entering that realm.

When it comes to one's own body, I don't see much of anything as going too far. Not all of it's particularly my cup of tea, but I don't see anything wrong with it.

ok...well, i still maintain what I said...

I'm not saying it's wrong. My main reason for having a problem with this is that I think it's a really, REALLY bad idea.

[Anónimo Juan]

Well, if it makes you feel with confidence and happy, do it.

Think about tiger-man, he lives alone and secluded from society, how could "plastic" wings make it better? The truth is that you'd be a freak to most eyes. People who enlarge their breast, repair their noses, etc. are fixing things that make them feel less confident about themselves, they don't add a limb to their body to be more "animal".

Oh, and the horns guy must be nuts

[*nagowteena*]

I think it's a very touchy matter, I do think it's possible, but is it worth it?

I suppose to some it is, but it all depends on the circumstances.

and it would take a LOT of time, and a LOT of money.

[WereWolfBoy]

nothing in the world is normal

[RedEye]

I think it's a very touchy matter, I do think it's possible, but is it worth it?

I suppose to some it is, but it all depends on the circumstances.

and it would take a LOT of time, and a LOT of money.

You forgot: a lot of PAIN, as well. Any modifications to the body require retraining and rehabilitation. And, being human (even then) there would be this little thing called "Surgical Arthritis" that is the result of major bone work, and these modifications would rank as major.

Better to just clone the new body and transfer the mind to it...

[supersilverdraco]

I wonder, has anyone here thought of the work possible from nano-robotics?

Properly used and maintained, nanobots that are maintained within a body could actually recreate the 'lycanthropy' syndrome and allow people to go back and forth between forms.

Although it's still a baby science right now, nanorobotics could very well be all that's required. It has the potential to alter not only physical structuring(like bone and tissue), but also alter the very genetic core.

And do take note, that ALL humans have something called 'junk DNA' that contains genetic material from other animals and such. All you would have to do is find the right ones, turn them 'on' in a proper order, and turn others 'off' to gain that particular look. It would take time fo the body to adjust, but it's doable.

But with Nanobots in general, you would be able to do that at will, so long as the 'bots are programmed properly, and are able to respond to a mental command.

The one MAJOR problem with nanos is if they are given AI and the ability to replicate.......that's when we enter a 'grey goo' situation...and so saying, NO AI FOR NANOBOTS.

And on the ethics of bodmod stuff, look up a book called 'Armed Memory'. A VERY good read for such things as this. IT shows a possible future where this stuff is available, and gives a possible view on the reactions to it's existence.

My own view? I believe that anyone that wishes to do this should be given a thorough psycological examination to determine just HOW much they want it, why they want it, determine their mental stability[there's a big difference between a furry and someone who's lost a few marbles], and wether they will be able to adjust to the social impact.

There's also one problem with all of this none of you seem to be adressing. Identification. Once this level of bodmodding is available, how are people going to be identified when some of these mods will destroy human fingerprints and other such modes of identification? DNA tagging? I think not. There will no doubt be rogue scientists that will do blackmarket modding, and there goes the tagging out the window. This will be a very difficult phase of humanity, and not one thing can be done to stop it.

Also, with muzzles and other skull changes, there will be the problem of relearning how to talk.

Personally, I like the idea of being capable of changing my body. Why? Because I have always dreamed of being my scalesona, and this would be my chance. I'm even taking college courses that will lead me towards the nanorobotics industry. My plans are to be the first person to go through a true full bodmod, and go public with it once I am in full control of my body. Why do I want to do it this way and in such a bold manner? Because I don't want people to be afraid, and the sooner it becomes public, and people realize it's real, we can get the social and ethical crap out of the way sooner rather than later, because there will no doubt be an outcry and such.

I very well know there will be many many many many many problems with this and all, but someone has to be first, and someone has to figure out how to relearn everything from scratch, and someone has to be brave[or foolish enough] to go to the extremes to pave the way for others. I also know this won't be a fun thing to go through the first time. I will have to deal with not only the physical and socialogical problems, but even my own psycological stability will be tested through the ordeal. I may even have to change my diet to compensate for the physical requirement to maintain the body.


*awaits the input of others*

[Kaebora]

Nano-machines that rip your body apart to change your form would more than likely kill you with even the slightest malfunction. Due to this fact, I doubt such medical technology will ever exist. Coupled with the fact that it has practically no medical benifits aside from satisfying the patient's own fantasies, funding such research will never happen. In regards to attaching wings and tails, it poses no threat to the patient's life, thus is likely to be privately funded reserach by willing doctors.

The prospect of human wings seems discusting though. Our bodies can't grow feathers, so wings would resemble something like fleshy bat wings, as all flying mammals have. The same could be said of tails, but human hair wouldn't be all that attractive for a tail, since our hair grows in no particular 'grain' direction like cats or dogs. It would be scruffy and likely to be discustingly pubic in appearance. This of course is speculation that the skin could grow hair at all. The truth today is that skin grafts do not have hair folicles, so any tails we can attach today will be hairless.

[supersilverdraco]

Medical benifits include internal surgery without the need to open someone up, removal of cancers without chemical or radiation doses, the ability to reattatch and repair nervous system damages, remove geneticly caused diseases, and even fight off viruses that are currently unconquerable.

[Kaebora]

Medical benifits include internal surgery without the need to open someone up, removal of cancers without chemical or radiation doses, the ability to reattatch and repair nervous system damages, remove geneticly caused diseases, and even fight off viruses that are currently unconquerable.

I am aware of the benifits of nano-machines for practical medical use. I'm referring to the lack of benifit from being able to "shape-shift" with this technology. In all likelyhood it may kill the person if there is a malfunction. This all comes down to what doctors would refer to as "no medical benifit", which includes plastic surgery, circumcision, or the removal or alteration of healthy body parts. Certainly there are doctors that do these surgeries for a price tag, which is why I can't rule out the possibility. Though, there rarely is a plastic surgeon that will condone an operation that threatens a patient's life.

[Berserker]

I am aware of the benifits of nano-machines for practical medical use. I'm referring to the lack of benifit from being able to "shape-shift" with this technology.

I remember a scifi novella by Michael Flynn called "Werehouse" about this. The nano-tech shift treatment was the most painful thing imaginable, and it was dangerous to the point where it was made illegal (but still administered underground.)

[vrikasatma]

I think functional wings would be more difficult and complex than a functional tail.
For one, you can't just stick wings on an organism and expect to fly. It's a body-wide thing involving bigger pectorals, thinner/hollow bones, etc. The wingspan on an average-200# human would have to be about 15 feet!
But what's a tail except an extension of the spinal column? BTW, we do have tails; they're vestigial and the vertebrae are fused so they can't move, but they're there.

I'd go in to get a tail grafted on in a second. I have lower back problems and could use the balance it would provide. I'd probably need knee replacement surgery, though, so I could crouch on my haunches to sit, like most tailed animals do.

[vrikasatma]

Sorry for the double-post, but I just had a look at the tattoo discussion.

Facial tattoos, if they are subtle and harmonious, don't necessarily have to be a social deterrent. Like say if a brick-red fineline tattoo on Negroid skin, or grey/blue/white on Caucasian skin, that enhanced or followed the curves of the feature they're inscribed on, wouldn't be any worse than, say, a pair of glasses perched on your nose...or, in 18th Century fashion, a beauty mark. The thing you have to remember is to avoid the eyes, jawline and nose because the tissues around there are subject to gravity and the nose never stops growing throughout life. What looks great today will look odd in five years and hellish in twelve.

There's also a trend among women who've had breast cancer and had to have radical mastectomies "reclaiming their breasts" by getting tattoos done where the breast had been. Not necessarily a breast, but a picture. The best part is, they don't have to be shy about opening their blouses and showing it off because there's no breast there! As I understand it, it's very liberating and a big part of their healing.

[Wingman]

Eh, notify me when they get the whole regeneration thing figured out, I (along with pretty much every military on the planet) will jump all over that.
Other than that, biotech is where it's at. Not much point in having an eagle eye when you've got an ocular implant that can do the exact same, and all sorts of other things as well.
In any case, they should focus on fixing existing problems before they start strapping wings onto us and sending us forth like space monkeys.

I just get the mental picture of furry Siberians and such, I know that heating is a major issue in northern areas(like where I'm at, nearly Alaska). If the people can comfortably live without needing as much heating then there could be many benefits.
Though, you then have the problem of what happens when they go somewhere warm, would they start shedding?

Wookies for the win.

[Kaebora]

I'd go in to get a tail grafted on in a second. I have lower back problems and could use the balance it would provide. I'd probably need knee replacement surgery, though, so I could crouch on my haunches to sit, like most tailed animals do.

Sorry to ruin your hopes, but that would make your back problems worse. Humans, by design, do not require tails nor can benifit from it. You would have to lean forward to balance yourself when walking, putting increased strain on the lower back. Of course the is depending on the weight of the tail. Some women might see some balance if they are burdened by their large breasts (which I hear complaints about every so often). Of course there is no certainty that even that will work. Our center of gravity is controled by our arms, which is more than efficiant for the majority of the human race.

It is unfortunate that we aren't built to become anthropomorphic.