Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by PariahPoet »

It's pretty much the black swan premise.
Imagine you have been assigned to research swan populations. You go all over the country, counting thousands of swans. Every single swan you see is white, so go on a working hypothesis that every swan is white. It takes years of study to come to this conclusion, but so far it has held true. Then one day you encounter a black swan and it turns your theory on its ear.

It takes years, sometimes decades or centuries to make a logical conclusion about the world based on observation and only a moment to destroy that belief. Thousands of samples to establish a pattern, only one oddity to break it.

Does that mean that these assumptions are narrow-minded? No, people are driven by nature to categorize and visualize rules that govern the world. It's how we try to understand our environment. But it is prudent to remember that just one anomaly can disprove these rules we envision. History has shown us that these rules evolve as we learn as a species. Sometimes these rules we establish can work even while being entirely wrong. For example- earlier people believed that running water frightens away evil spirits. That is why you should drink from a running stream, not a stagnant pool. In a way they were right. You are much more likely to get sick and die from drinking still water, but as we know now this is because still water is a wonderful breeding ground for parasites and bacteria like cholera and dysentery.

This is why I prefer to think of laws as working concepts. Sure they're a good way to know what to expect for the most part, but you never know when you'll encounter that X factor that changes everything.
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Aki »

Vagrant wrote:Aki, I actually don't disagree with you on any of that. What set me off was two things, it was the notion of p-shifting being considered completely impossible, and a couple of other posts just struck me as narrow-minded...
Gotcha.
Okay, I'll explain myself here real quick.

From a personal standpoint, 'impossible' is an unpleasant word, I feel that something can be "highly improbable", and it can also be "very unlikely", but I cannot understand how it would be "impossible" for any conceivable outcome to be true somewhere, beyond our understanding. I've tried wrapping my mind around that but whenever I try thinking it I feel arrogant, I can't really apologise for that because that's just how I am.


Reminds me of a discussion on probability vs. plausibility where someone said that anything was possible, but not everything was plausible.
This is why I'm a huge fan of fringe Sciences too, for that selfsame reason. I'm more than willing to try and separate the likely from the unlikely, but designating things possible and impossible means that we could never accept the impossible even if it happened to beep our collective nose. I feel that Science, at least, should dictate that anything is possible, but simply that there are many things which are highly improbable.
Makes sense, I guess. That sounds more reasonable.
IndianaJones wrote:By the way it looks.....Extraterrestrials are living among us. As the poll was made for people's interests and beliefs. Because all those type of things are weird, different, not so normal, and not humans. :?
Bweh?

Is that some sort of dig on people be uncaring about other's beliefs or something? Confusing post is confusing.
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Vagrant »

PariahPoet: Thanks Pariah, that's exactly the kind of idea I wanted to convey but I'm really not that good at this. Sometimes I wonder why I get involved, but I suppose I'm just spurred on to say what I feel and if I didn't, I doubt I'd ever say anything.

The only point I was trying to get at is that it's not narrow-minded to believe in established probabilities (that's sensible) but there is a form of narrow-mindedness that would deny a person a better understanding of the World. For example: One might see a black swan but refuse to believe it exists.

Even after years of examination to prove that the black swan is a black swan, there are those who would believe it has been tampered with or produced in some way -- the black swan is impossible -- because it doesn't fit into their World view, in which logically there can only be white swans because only white swans have been observed thus far.

It's just something that depresses me and I could never think like that, and if everyone thought like that we'd have just ignored the exstance of the black swan and no one would ever have known that swans could have any other colour to them but white.

It's a very boxed-in kind of World at the end of the day.

That's why I tend to balk at something being impossible, if something presents itself to us that even seems improbable then I think we should investigate it with all our worth as opposed to dismissing it, and until that happens I think it's a good idea to accept the probabilities but as you said at the end there, to keep an open-mind about any unexpected factors.

That's why I said that I'd always hoped that Science could be a grounds in which everything is possible, it's just that some things are proved to be highly improbable via observation -- but I think that it's fair to accept that we can't call anything impossible by observation at all. I had that idea drummed into my head by one physics teacher back in my youth, and for Science I think it makes a lot of sense.

Science is one area where we I'd say we can't refuse to accept the possible, regardless of how highly improbable it might seem.

The fact that there are no P-shifters simply dictates that we have not Scientifically observed any P-shifters yet, this does not make their existance impossible but rather highly improbable, but the possibility remains. This I would imagine is true of everything.

There are things we have to accept in order to understand the reality around us, but it's being willing to accept the possible -- regardless of how improbable -- that has allowed Science to evolve as opposed to stagnate.

That's how I feel on the mater, anyway.

I'll leave it at that, I just wanted to add that and thank you, Pariah. That made a lot of sense to me.

Aki: Agreed, though...

"Reminds me of a discussion on probability vs. plausibility where someone said that anything was possible, but not everything was plausible."

To use plausible I would imagine one must accept that plausible is a subjective thing based upon the findings of the observer?

In which case, what is plausible varies from person to person, on a very subjective basis. What I'm getting at is that it would be fair easier to define probabilities in a more objective manner than how plausible something is, as I imagine a degree of personal bias based on the individual's findings would come into the latter ... wouldn't it?
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Aki »

Vagrant wrote: Aki: Agreed, though...

"Reminds me of a discussion on probability vs. plausibility where someone said that anything was possible, but not everything was plausible."

To use plausible I would imagine one must accept that plausible is a subjective thing based upon the findings of the observer?

In which case, what is plausible varies from person to person, on a very subjective basis.
Plausibility would be based on certain variables in the situation (naturally, using different variables for different situations), so that might not be true. It's not particularly plausible that a car will fly into your room if you're on the third floor of an apartment, as cars do not typically become airborne, while it is possible, under certain conditions.
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Gevaudan »

While it is good to say that anything is possible and some things are just highly improbable, I think that even relying on that principle too much can be taken to an extreme. Even though open- mindedness is needed desperately in today's society, one should also think practically. I may trust in highly improbable events, but I'm not going to be completely dependent on them because, well, they're highly improbable. I've seen far too many people take "improbability" to the extreme, and use it as an explanation for their arguments, so it's a touchy subject for me. I'm not saying that anyone here is demonstrating that, I just want to point out that while drawing conclusions from only what you've seen directly is close-minded, relying completely on conclusions from the improbable is just as bad. Yet another reason why I hate extremes. I've open-minded to the improbable and I'm often interested in figuring out how and why things could happen, but what works for me practically is this: if an explanation for some phenomena is more miraculous than the explanation it's trying to disprove or replace, then although there might be some worth in investigating it, you shouldn't rely on it immediately without further analysis and evidence.
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Berserker »

The reason why cultures throughout history, regardless of race or geography, envision the same animalistic things--shapeshifters, animal gods, animal-headed people--isn't necessarily because those things physically existed (in the forms that our fantasies would have them,) but because of the inherent and universal nature of humanity.

Our species developed so intimately with the other creatures around us, that to associate ourselves with them is branded into the very essence of the human condition. Our lives were spent, and have been spent, surrounded by animals from birth until death: hunting them and hunting with them, playing with them, sleeping alongside them, wearing their skins, being bitten by them, howling back at them from the woods, and so on and so forth. We envision humans as animals not from fantasy, but from truth: we come from their world, and although our introspection grants us a certain mental ability, we are defined also by instinct and mammalian genetic heritage. Did our tool-using skills suddenly appear from nowhere, a magical trait instilled by brain size alone, or did we observe other animals using tools, and steal that skill for ourselves? Did we teach ourselves to hunt with reason and rationale, or did we watch the beast slink through the grass towards his prey, and with our own instincts encouraging us, mimic his behavior? Did we form social hierarchies purely from our ability to communicate, or perhaps the wolves taught us a thing or two? I believe it is the latter, in all cases.

We saw ourselves reflected in the eyes of the hawk, jackal, crocodile, shark, bear; and committed our understanding of this profundity to stone and papyrus, although the revelation of our kinship to these creatures frightens us: we made animals our gods through our recognition of their utter influence on our lives. In our art, why is it that to see an animal on two legs seems just as natural as to see it on four?

In a world that tries so desperately to sever us from our animal cousins, it is no wonder that we start to increasingly see curiosities like therians, otherkin, and furries creep into our culture. Though they don't fully realize it, they are reactionaries, in their own way recognizing something profound about our relationship with the animal world, and latching onto it using the only interpretations they know.
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by WereWolfBoy »

In my opion everyone has a creature or however you put it that has to deal with an aspect in the life of that person like me for example.

Im kind and act like a girl from time to time because i was raised by my mom and my bilogical dad was a truck driver and almost never there to help bring me up
me and my brother are complete opposites i hate violence *yet i love gore and other.....things*
my poems show somewhat what i had to deal with in my childhood and i loved werewolves since an early age.

But back on the topic at hand like i said before everyone has their own aspects of things
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Kzinistzerg »

I'm in a bit of an odd situation here, so first I'll quote what I responded as in the poll on DA and then continue on.

"Hmm. See, I don't know what to classify myself as.

Genetically, human of course. As much as everyone else.

Bodily? Human there too. I don't P-Shift nor do I think it's possible-- but that's another discussion.

Mentally? Human... again. And yet... I believe humans are not the pinnacle of everything. I believe we are, like every other species, still climbing upwards. And I believe that we will soon have the power to improve upon the human body or at least start removing pointless faults that evolution has not had time enough to remove.

Spiritually? Well... I'm an atheist. But beyond that, I don't believe in magic, or psychic powers, or have faith in a religion. I believe that the universe is all relativistic clockwork, non-deterministic chaos, governed by statistics and not some anthropomorphised invisible being in the sky.

So just what the hell am I doing in this poll anyway?

I'm here because I still think I have a connection to animals. No magic here, just a love of them and a general hint of misanthropism. I like the idea of intelligent animals, or werekin, or anything similar. It's a nice one, and something that transcends our current limitations. I'm no werecat, not at all. But I think that if I had to make a parallel to an animal, that animal would be the common housecat. Not one of a particular breed, just a sort of mongrel cat. Not the tiger I shift into in my dreams, but just a housecat. It fits, I think.

Also, kitties are cute. *hugs pet cat*"

And on the subject: I have been taking physics classes up to the higher levels. We're learning quantum/wave mechanics now, to give you an idea. I have a fairly good idea how the universe works, so to speak. And so I have to ask: why are you so willing to heave out the last 500 years of scientific knowledge?

It's not that SCIENCE IS ALWAYS RIGHT, because it's not infallible. It's that it creeps, however slow of fast, towards a better understanding of the world. And so, I will explain, briefly, chaos and uncertainty.

Uncertainty: Heisenberg's equations tell us that if you know one quantity, you cannot know another, or that the uncertainties of the two, numerically, multiply to planck's constant. In common speech these two quantities are velocity and position, which is not strictly true, but it's close enough.

So, you can never know both where something was and how fast/what direction it is going. Fundamentally, this means we can't get microscopic readings--- fine. No supercomputer will ever predict the future. Chaos theory also says that an arbitrarily small error will always grow so large that it will become as big as or bigger than the thing you hope to measure.

Basically, no seeing into the future. Also, this means that nothing is technically impossible. Anything can happen! I can teleport three feet to the left and turn bright blue and be wearing a top-hat. Then again, the likelihood of this occurrence is so small that it happens maybe once in 5 times the age of the universe. Yes, it could happen. Will it, in practical terms? No. And generally, this is what is meant when people say a thing is "impossible."

I see nothing that can't be explained by science, or can't at least be roped off by velvet cords and a "?" sign.

So, can I say Pshifting is impossible? Yes, yes I can. Because this is so improbable, using the terms I said above, that it is not going to happen.

Can I say Magic and Psychic Powers and God and dieties and spirits and the soul, reincarnation, an afterlife, animal spirits, totems, alternate planes of reality-- can I say they don't exist?

Yes, because I have no reason to believe, NO evidence, that they do. Give me evidence and I will happily agree, but you can't present me with nothing and expect concurrence via "because I said so".

It may seem lonely that I think the universe and all in it came about by natural means, with no prodding. But frankly, even if there is a god-like figure, we can operate without him! That's why it took so long for relativity to b discovered: it doesn't matter to the peasants; newton's laws are accurate for damn near anything we try to do. I don't need someone's hand holding mine.



(As a small addition: I don't think belief in such things is bad, or having religion is bad. I just think that you have to question things on your own.)


EDIT: two extra things: I think the universe is weird and fantastical enough as is; I think what we have in every shape and form, from the flowers to bacteria, to books, to people, to rust, dirt, and the industrial revolution, has its own beauty, its own thing. I don't mean we should save everything, but there's plenty here! It's not so barren without a god, rather, we can marvel at the things the natural world made, a know that a infinite variety awaits if only you give it time. And two, science is quite good at finding things it can't explain right now, pointing at it, and saying, "that, that thing there, I have no idea what the hell it is. Let's investigate it." Which is how we find most things out! Science is not so closed-minded. I can think of many revolutions in science; world is round, gravity, discovery of micro-life, relativity, quantum theory, chaos theory, computing, theory of evolution, agriculture, discovery of particle-based inheritance, discovery of DNA, discovery of viruses, discovery of the idea of vaccines, discovery of prions, discovery of the use of crystals, discovery of metallurgy, discovery of prisms.... I could go on an on! These things were not footnotes; in most cases we have had pivotal experiments that flipped things on their heads. And science encourages this to happen. And, you'll note, that we have a fairly rigorous process for determining the fitness of a theory/hypothesis. It's not just some old men in white lab coats making things up.
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Gevaudan »

Kzinistzerg wrote:...science is quite good at finding things it can't explain right now, pointing at it, and saying, "that, that thing there, I have no idea what the hell it is. Let's investigate it." Which is how we find most things out! Science is not so closed-minded....And, you'll note, that we have a fairly rigorous process for determining the fitness of a theory/hypothesis. It's not just some old men in white lab coats making things up.
I'm not saying that, and I complete agree with you, Kzinistzerg (assuming that comment was pointing at me). Science is extremely reliable for figuring out the unknown. It's just that I'm tired of the "chance" argument. People take the Uncertainty Principle to the extreme and use it to support their theories. They treat "chance" like a god, using it to explain away odds that are astronomically small given the conditions. Things happen all the time that are highly improbable, and the odds do stack up into many digits against. However, I absolutely detest when people have no evidence or implausibly high odds that are called into question even by other scientists, and then they explain it away using "chance" and by saying that "impossible just means highly improbable". There needs to be some realm of plausibility, you understand. The purpose of science is to expand our knowledge and what is plausible as well as possible, not to jump immediately into the unbelievable to exploit it as "evidence".
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Kzinistzerg »

That wasn't aimed at you, but we happen to agree. As I said, just because it's possible for me to teleport spontaneously, doesn't mean it will happen. It would happen once in a time span longer than the age of the universe! :D Sure, it's possible, but I call it impossible, for one simple reason: it's unpredictable, hellishly unlikely, and unreproducible. So it's essentially a worthless phenomenon.
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Vagrant »

Kzinistzerg wrote:Basically, no seeing into the future. Also, this means that nothing is technically impossible.
You say that, and yet you go on to say that things are impossible, that doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't really understand the difference between impossible and technically impossible. Are there different levels of 'impossible' now? See, I thought that was 'improbable', where there can be different levels of it.
Kzinistzerg wrote:Then again, the likelihood of this occurrence is so small that it happens maybe once in 5 times the age of the universe.
Is that something that can be proved in any way? Where do you get these statistics from? It sounds like rearpullium to me, unless you can actually back that up somehow. It's your belief that such a thing may only happen 'once in 5 times the age of the Universe', but is there anything to support that on a Scientific basis, without room for doubt?
Kzinistzerg wrote:And generally, this is what is meant when people say a thing is "impossible."
So this pseudo-Science has given new meaning to impossible, now? Impossible is an English word, look up what it means in the Oxford dictionary or some other well-established dictionary.

I'm betting that what this actually is -- again -- is improbable, whhich there can be verying levels of. To say something is impossible means that there isn't any room for doubt, that is why we have the word impossible along with the word improbable. We have improbable because impossible is a silly word, and a layman's word at that.
Kzinistzerg wrote:So, can I say Pshifting is impossible? Yes, yes I can. Because this is so improbable, using the terms I said above, that it is not going to happen.
This.

Now let's consider that this is taken from the terminology of impossible as a dictionary would define it, just think about what that actually means for a moment. Think about the claim you've made in relation to the word 'impossible'.

See, this is what my physics teacher taught me to avoid when it comes to Science, it was his opinion that anyone who claimed that something was objectively impossible is foolhardy, because by the very nature of human understanding there's every chance that they might be proven wrong eventually.

This is why I shy away from hardcore Science fans who are like this, because it's equally as bad as hardcore Christianity. A hardcore Christian will tell you that evolution cannot exist, objectively, because it's an affront to God (the creator) and they'll go on to explain Creationism. Any person who pushes something as objective is really just stating a belief, whether they realise it or not. An individual can twist Science (and even atheism) into a religion, even when it's not supposed to be.

It's quite possible to believe so much in this kind of thinking that anything else is inconceivable, and therein lies the rather stunning arrogance of the unflappable believer. They cannot concede that anything they know is simply a guideline to understanding reality around us, they have to push a system of thinking as an objective fact. They can't consider that another race out there, smarter than us, might have pulled something like this off, it's inconceivable to them that somewhere in this vast Universe of ours, something they don't understand yet could exist.

This is why Science needs to be guidelines, not objective facts, because then if we're presented with something we don't understand we can go on to examine it and try to understand it, whereas if we cling to what we think is true as fact, then we dismiss the possibility of something we don't immediately understand, and therefore we ignore what may be real, and Science becomes as much of a fantasy as any other belief, because it's no longer trying to evaluate reality around us, but instead it's trying to create a subjective reality tailored to the individual: This is belief, not Science.

There are things I believe too, but I don't push them as fact, nor do I push them as Science. To say "I think it's impossible because of what I understand, and that's what I believe." is fine, to say "This is impossible and there's no two ways about it." is the same as Creationists debunking evolution. It's no different at all.

I'm sorry, but it's just a pet peeve of mine when someone tries to use Science as a system to ratify their peronal beliefs as fact. It's arrogant and it doesn't seem or sound like Science to me, and I'm betting that some of the more recognised theorists in any Scientific field would agree with me. The irony and hypocrisy of this is that I bet that the kind of hardcore Science fan I've described would even go after Creationists for doing the same thing they're doing themselves.

We really need a name for this pseudo-Science-which-proves-my-beliefs-to-be-factual-and-this-Universe-which-contains-things-far-older-than-humanity-has-no-say-in-the-matter stuff, because it deserves to be given a name. It's amazingly close to Creationism in its modus operandi, and admittedly the only thing that changes is the point of view being pushed, but that point of view isn't creation so we can't call it Creationism, but it could almost be a subset of that.

I'm sorry, but that's just how I feel.

To me it's all very amusing, and not very much like Science at all. In my opinion, a real Scientist would say the same: Science is a system of guidelines for understanding reality, it's not to objectively state the nature of the Universe to the Universe (and everyone willing to listen).

I'll finish this up with a "Wot I Think": It should be considered highly improbable that there are physical shifters because we've not actually observed anything that would support the idea yet, however, the possibility exists that in the future we may observe something that was previously beyond our understanding that would turn this improbability upon its head, therefore it is wise to consider it as improbable, and not impossible.

I cite continental drift, where the idea was considered impossible to geologists only to find out that "Oh my gosh!" it isn't, and in fact the theory was found to be very much true (through observation of something that hadn't yet been observed). I'd like to think that we've matured a bit since the 60's and that we shouldn't so readily scoff at things and call them impossible, because we'd likely just end up with the continental drift scenario again.

I am sorry to get into this again, but I see 'impossible' as a very dirty word, and I'm determined to try and show everyone why I think that way, I know that not everyone is going to understand -- realistically -- but there might be some out there who'll see this and actually grok the point I'm trying to get across. 'Impossible', in my opinion, is made of silliness and arrogance.

(For those who are Science Fiction fans, I'll add in here something that some of you will find amusing. I've noticed that the Doctor -- of Doctor Who fame -- sometimes waggishly claims that something he sees directly in front of him is 'impossible', this always amused me greatly because every time he did it he was making fun of the concept of 'the impossible'. I liked that. And it's a sad state of affairs when Science Fiction manages to grok something that armchair Scientists don't.)

Edited to add...

I feel I've come on a bit strong there and I'm sorry for that, it's just that I find the concept presented offensive: That of telling people whatever they may believe in is impossible, and then using Science to support that.

That's bad Science, it shows research in a bad light and gives the idea that all Scientists are out to disprove the fantastic, rather than to find it (the latter is what comes of Science, isn't it?). It strikes me less as Science and more as pseudo-intellectual superiority.

It seems to promote the idea that anyone who doesn't agree is probably a savage for not strictly adhering to things that other people (not themselves) have found out. That's the feeling I get when someone comes out and says that something is Scientifically impossible, no doubt about it.

I've known a couple of theorists and Science teachers, and none of them have been inclined to run amok with the impossibility agenda (by which I don't mean simply scoffing at an odd theory, but people who go out of their way to actively prove things to be impossible), this seems to be a movement that's started up on the Internet and centers around 'atheism' (or at least a poorly understood version thereof).

It also seems to imply that anyone who doesn't think of item X as impossible is not Scientific, and therefore not an intelligent, free-thinking person.

That's how it all comes over to me, and yes, I do find that offensive.

I'm sorry, but people should be left to believe what they want to, and to use Science to try and claim that any idea is impossible is poor form indeed. In my opinion at the very least.
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by WerewolfKeeper3 »

{Glances around} Belief Vs. Science discussion... i'm staying far out of it thanks... they never end well...

Anyway, i do believe in a spirit world, ghosts, spirits, Phantoms etc.
I believe there are those who can shift psychically and/or spiritually... Physically? I've heard of people who do have minor changes during the full moon, {not making this up} that are physical... but nothing as full body shifting... then again, would they ever tell us if they could?

Shamanism, i believe in, spiritually and magic in general i believe in, and have a deep respect for. If life is energy, and energy cannot be destroyed, then why can't this life transcend this body? I'm going to be in so much trouble for that one... i can feel it...

There is a lot of things i believe in that most people would have probably abandoned long ago, and I'm not afraid to say... that i believe dragons did and still do exist, and that perhaps the creatures from Myth and legend have just evolved in ways that make it difficult for us to find them. After all, just because we can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. And perhaps... we just don't want to see them really... or maybe they don't want to talk to us anymore... i don't know...

And yes, i do talk to someone in my head...

(Sup...)
And no, that's not made up...
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Gevaudan »

Vagrant, I understand what you're talking about, and I agree. I too hate it when people actively go around proving things wrong and impossible instead of using that energy to instead go learn new things for themselves. It's wasted energy: why prove others wrong when you can learn more things that are right?

I was just arguing semantics a few posts back. "Improbable" and "impossible" are both losing their meaning; I was just focusing on the misuse of "improbable" in particular, but it can also be applied to "impossible", or any other word really. The main point, regardless of the words being used, is that people will do anything to further affirm their superiority over others and prove them wrong, even if that means lying and changing the meanings of words. That was what I was complaining about; it just took you and Kzinistzerg's posts to help me realize that.
WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:...Unless it's deserved... then, i say, quote the Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland
"OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!" :lol:
And she's screaming it in my head now too... eh... stupid ability to recognize and duplicate voices in my head after hearing them once or twice...
That's the kind of trippy movie that stays with you forever! :lol:
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by RedEye »

We need to remember that Science and the Scientific Method are relatively new to human civilization; as in under one hundred years in most places.
That makes "Science-Types" a bit nervous, and just like everyone else they want to be the only "Right" source.
It's just a case of nerves.

If is isn't measurable and quantifiable; it can't exist. Like dark matter and eleven dimensions.
Life's like that.
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by WerewolfKeeper3 »

Gevaudan wrote:
WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:...Unless it's deserved... then, i say, quote the Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland
"OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!" :lol:
And she's screaming it in my head now too... eh... stupid ability to recognize and duplicate voices in my head after hearing them once or twice...
That's the kind of trippy movie that stays with you forever! :lol:

Yep... i just recently watched it {long story... don't ask} I'd forgotten how... weird it was... Someone was smokin' somethin' and it wasn't the caterpillar either... :lol:

RedEye: Agreed. Science has solved many issues in the past, but they are always revising their ideas when something new comes up. I'd be nervous too...

(You're always nervous...)

Yeah... i know...
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Kzinistzerg »

I can see plainly my statement didn't make it across. I'll try to paraphrase this time.

Science is not infalliable.
Saying that something is "impossible" as in "can never ever happen, ever, ever, evereverver" is wrong.
Saying that something is "impossible" as in "This particular sequence of events is so horrendously unlikely as to be utterly irrelevant." is NOT wrong.

Yes, it's not the dictionary definition-- but the meaning of words is defined by usage, not a book.

So, yes, you're right, vagrant. I get the feeling we're arguing the same point from different angles. But my point is:

An idea can be irrelevant. One of the basic tenents of science is that you have to be able to be proved wrong. My physics teacher used to use this idea. He likes to say he doesn't believe in gravity--- angels carry objects down from the heavens and push planets around in elliptical orbits. He did this to annoy one student who couldn't tell when he was joking, but also the student always went for the bait and demanded, "WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?"

And so. I do not believe in werewolves or similar supernatural things because I have seen no evidence.

And so, two further notes. First, the age of the universe is estimated at about 14 +- a few billion years. I did not go to a research journal and ask them, "if I teleported to the left..." and get a number. But calling it bullshit (though politely, I acknowledge) is irritating, because I am giving you an estimate. Like all large round-number estimates, it has quite the bit of error in it...

But I'll run it like this. I have about a trillion cells, each which probably has something around a million atoms in it, each of which has, on average or so, maybe 10 subatomic particles, most of which have three quarks in them.

No, none of these numbers came from an exhaustive search of technical journals. Just taking a lot of sciencey classes and a hearty scoop of round number-guesses.

Number of particles contained in my body: 10^15*10^6*10*3= 3*10^22.

Now, each of those particles would have to move, simultaneously, three feet to the left--- accounting for the rotation of the earth, the orbit of the earth, the orbit of the sun, and the trajectory of the galaxy. The particles would have to all appear at the same time, without imbeding me in any nearby objects. Without coming back as a meaningless cloud of particles.

If you took all of the possible reconfigurations and ran them against all the possible configurations in which I survive, turn blue, and am spontaneously wearing a top hat, I think you'll find it much much more likely that I will continue to sit here on my a** and argue on the internet.


And second, a very remote possibility can be ignored. Will a gamma-ray beam from a nearby quasar roast the atmosphere off of our planet? Sure, it's possible. But it is:

Very Very Very Very Unlikely
Unpreventable
Unpredictable
Unrepeatable

So, in practical terms, it is irrelevant. Yes, this is possible. YES. And so is everything else. This is like telling each person that they;re unique: Well, DUH! But it's so ubiquitous as to be a needless classification.

Anyway, I never said science was this all-knowing thing. No! We're incredibly ignorant, but I do realize I may not have stated that I understand that science may not get to everything, and it may be wrong! Some horrendously fundamental point may be missing. And, yet... Relativity went unnoticed for so long because without spacecraft or opics it's utterly irrelevant.


AAAANYWAY.

I don't think, again, that holding beliefs different than mine is bad. I don't think it makes you closed-minded. I think ANY belief in ANYTHING will give you a blind spot, and the trick is not eliminating blind spots (that way lies paranoia) but in knowing you have them and generally where they are.


Oh, and Addendum: I should say that while I do not believe in things like fairies, I don't tell people they're impossible. It's just that everything we know makes them... superfluous. I mean, can you give me proof of a fairy? Please do; I would LOVE to have that exist.

And on the origins of superstitious behavior: http://vidallena.org/skinpal.htm

EDIT: I mean, I think some things are outside the boundaries of science. From a scientific point of view, there is no reason to believe in them, because there is neither evidence nor theory to predict them. I think that if the supernatural exists, it sure won't be from a sciency point of view-- not with our level of tech, at least. It may well be powered by 'magic'.
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Gevaudan »

Kzinistzerg wrote:...But I'll run it like this. I have about a trillion cells, each which probably has something around a million atoms in it, each of which has, on average or so, maybe 10 subatomic particles, most of which have three quarks in them. No, none of these numbers came from an exhaustive search of technical journals. Just taking a lot of sciencey classes and a hearty scoop of round number-guesses.

Number of particles contained in my body: 10^15*10^6*10*3= 3*10^22.

Now, each of those particles would have to move, simultaneously, three feet to the left--- accounting for the rotation of the earth, the orbit of the earth, the orbit of the sun, and the trajectory of the galaxy. The particles would have to all appear at the same time, without imbeding me in any nearby objects. Without coming back as a meaningless cloud of particles. If you took all of the possible reconfigurations and ran them against all the possible configurations in which I survive, turn blue, and am spontaneously wearing a top hat, I think you'll find it much much more likely that I will continue to sit here on my a** and argue on the internet....
Funny thing is, even though you would expect a religious fanatic to use that sort of logic to try to prove that supernatural beings or God or anything else exists, Richard Dawkins (an atheist fanatic) actually used that to attempt to prove that God doesn't exist. I'm not taking a jab at atheism or agnosticism here, but I'm just using this as an example of how extremism can grate my nerves in any form.

In the God Delusion, Dawkins provides his own example: A statue of Mary moving her arm. This is not a real and documented miracle, but even so Dawkins goes on to prove that this can be explained naturally and scientifically. He grabs some probability out of the air, and uses them to say that, although "highly improbable" (Dawkins is the reason why I don't like that phrase), the probability of a statue of Mary moving its arm because all of the particles simultaneously moved a foot in the same direction and reassembled themselves into the shape of an arm at the other end to make it look like the statue waved is just as likely, if not more so, as a supernatural force somehow moving that arm.

Keep in mind that this is Dawkin's own example. Apply Kzinistzerg's logic, and you'll see why I'm a bit touchy.

I'm not accusing anybody on The Pack of extremism, I just need to get this off my chest. I hate extremism so very much, scientific or religious. Religious extremism has been around for thousands of years, but seeing it in science is just a shame. But hey, I can be tolerant. If someone is being extremist, but not really hurting anybody, I just ignore it and leave it be. However, extremists are very sensitive, and so one small spark can trigger a full-blown tirade. I just don't want to set off that spark. I'm willing to let sleeping dogs lie, but when someone provokes me deliberately, then I get pissed.

Sorry for turning this into a Venting thread, but I felt it was relevant to the argument. I also would like to stress, again, I'm not accusing anyone on The Pack of exhibiting this kind of behavior, nor am I deliberately trying to put extremism up as a "straw man" for my ranting. On the contrary, we're a relatively stable community. If there's any hint of extremism, we're extremely tolerant and try not to provoke any kind of response just to make people angry. We also handle arguments well, as evidenced by this one.

:D
Just as a note, this is probably my longest post ever. :o
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Kzinistzerg »

I'm saying that it's highly unlikely but not impossible.

I suppose I should repeat that I'm ignoring things like Magic, which science would have a hard time "explaining". Because it's not built to. If you postulate magic, then my argument no longer works.

I agree with you. I read Dawkins' The God Delusion and though I didn't find fault with his arguments, I really didn't like his attitude and tone of voice.

Anyway, my point was that I think that, postulating that science is currently correct mostly, and that there is nothing "Magical" or "Psychic" or etc about werewolves, Pshifting can't exist as described.

But I would love to be proved wrong!
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by RedEye »

Keep in mind that P-shifting does happen in the Atomic and Sub-Atomic realms.
And we are made of those atoms... 8)

According to Ray Bradbury, Magic is simply a technology we cannot at the moment understand or use; as in: "Any technology that is sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."

Having said that, I'll beam back up. :lol:
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by outwarddoodles »

RedEye wrote:According to Ray Bradbury, Magic is simply a technology we cannot at the moment understand or use; as in: "Any technology that is sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."
That's actually one of Clarke's Three Laws, which is totally relevant to this conversation.

(If you think about it literally, we 'shapeshift' from the moment of birth, from infancy up until adulthood.)
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Kzinistzerg »

Yesh, but slowly. I think if we ever get "werewolves" it won't be a 5-minute shift... it'll be a semi-permanent state. Maybe change-back-able, but something like hormone treatments, for a loose analogy, that would take something like months to shift from one to the other.
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by Gevaudan »

Kzinistzerg wrote:Yesh, but slowly. I think if we ever get "werewolves" it won't be a 5-minute shift... it'll be a semi-permanent state. Maybe change-back-able, but something like hormone treatments, for a loose analogy, that would take something like months to shift from one to the other.
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by RedEye »

Gevaudan wrote:
Kzinistzerg wrote:Yesh, but slowly. I think if we ever get "werewolves" it won't be a 5-minute shift... it'll be a semi-permanent state. Maybe change-back-able, but something like hormone treatments, for a loose analogy, that would take something like months to shift from one to the other.
I wouldn't mind being fuzzy for the rest of my life. :D
Let's see: Fleas, Shedding, getting parts caught in things, static electricity.
Then there's the skin problems that come with having fur and sweat glands. Think B.O. Airwick. :lol:
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Re: Furs,Therian,Otherkin,WereWolves, Shamans, Mythology etc?

Post by outwarddoodles »

Kzinistzerg wrote:Yesh, but slowly. I think if we ever get "werewolves" it won't be a 5-minute shift... it'll be a semi-permanent state. Maybe change-back-able, but something like hormone treatments, for a loose analogy, that would take something like months to shift from one to the other.
I wasn't implying that shapeshifting was possible. I was just throwing another idea out there.

Besides, genetic therapy is already in the works in this day and age.
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