Moderator Problems

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Do you believe that the moderators have been unfair in an unjustified way?

Yes
6
29%
No
15
71%
 
Total votes: 21

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Moderator Problems

Post by WereDragon25 »

OK!!! I have heard WAY too many replies, Private Messages, and sudden slanders in should-be sad moments. This is definately not my place, I'm not a mod, but this needs to be done. If anyone has a problem, such as something has happened to you that you believe the moderators have had a hand in, that these, "Power Hungry Moderators" as I have heard some call them, post it here, I know this is a bad place, but since you all refuse to keep this in the Pack Business where this problem rightfully belongs! Then all of these comments and slanders should be centered together in a place that is KNOWN to have only slanderous comments in it, than in innocent posts, such as so many Good-Bye topics. By the way, use the poll at the top, let's get just how "unfair" the moderators are out of the way.
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by WereDragon25 »

OK, just voting will not cut it! I'm sorry, but if anyone has a problem with our moderators, POST IT ON HERE!!!. If you don't I know this will leek into all other topics, so get it over with and post! Some of you all are forgetting, a lot of Moderators have helped you, whether you realize it or not, but, if they, supposedly, wronged you, are you all going to forget all they've done for you over the time you've all been on here? These are our brothers and sisters. We will have disputes, all families do, and this IS a family. But, you forgive and forget, which I have seen very few do, and you DEFINATELY don't let it progress to the level that it has reached. So either post your frustrations so they can be either explained, or apologized for. I don't want this to come between my family!
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Berserker »

This thread is just... loud, and unnecessary. Whatever happened between the mods was their problem, and anyone's who wanted to jump in. You're just stirring the pot. This won't go anywhere. Just let it go.
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Kaebora »

All major disciplinary actions are supposed to be carefully discussed among nearly a dozen mods and admins in the hidden management forum. Rest assured that with every situation, the goal is to determine if the Terms of Service was being violated. If it is, action is taken. It really is that simple. Here it is if you wish to read it:
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by PariahPoet »

I don't know, I think it isn't a bad idea to have a specified area for these kind of complaints. Then it can stay out of other threads. Though I think the first course of action when a member has a problem with a mod is to contact them privately and try to work it out. (But sometimes that doesn't work) and if someone starts abusing their power and nothing is being done about it, the members should have the right to complain.

I think that regular members have a right to have a say in the things that go on here.
Honestly I think that a big part of the Pack's problems is just too many mods. People were much more respectful to each other when it was just Fig and then just Joker. Now it is moving toward an "us vs. them" as the ratio of mods to regular members has drastically risen.

Mods should be impartial and not engage in arguments, and if they do they absolutely should not end a thread with their opinion then threaten banning anyone who disagrees.
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by outwarddoodles »

Everyone is free to inquire a mod/admin about a situation that involves them whenever such event happens. No worries about "power-hungry moderators" -- we're easily accessible and available for discussion. You'll be surprised how hesitant mods are about making decisions.

As for the current drama....this is by no way ameliorating it. : C
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by RedEye »

Hmmm...

Given that the source of the drama has stopped being dramatic, I suspect the next set of complaints will be "This place is so boring!"

Music to our ears! :D
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Gevaudan »

outwarddoodles wrote:As for the current drama....this is by no way ameliorating it. : C
I commend your perspicacious usage of your evidently voluminous phraseology.
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Kaebora »

PariahPoet wrote:Mods should be impartial and not engage in arguments, and if they do they absolutely should not end a thread with their opinion then threaten banning anyone who disagrees.
Ok fine. You want to poke me on that issue in PMs and now in public... here's the message you disliked:
Kaebora wrote:No more discussion of the topic involving the demotion, otherwise admins and mods will start removing posts. There will be no changing of the majority decision that was made because it is final. This forum is here for purposes other than personal issues between Pack members or debating finalized admin discipline. Move on, because otherwise it leads to a continued mountain of drama.
Where in there is the opinion in regards to the discussion on Sabre's demotion? None. Also, nobody threatened to ban anyone. I said we would delete the posts that egg on the drama. It is a warning that the discussion stop because she is NOT getting her admins abilities back despite any further objections. The admin staff took several days of discussion over it, and the decision is made to protect the Pack. We know the entire story, and not just what Sabre was venting. Rather than allow the drama to rip apart the Packs members with people taking sides, we're being responsible by putting a foot down against the bickering.

The defacing of forum assets by an admin is instant grounds for a permanent demotion. It would be irresponsible to give someone immunity from discipline just because of post count, seniority, or friendships. It is to protect the forum and its members, and is deemed to create too dangerous a situation if reversed. Therefore further discussion on the matter is futile.
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by PariahPoet »

I never mentioned your name. I was simply giving an example of of the kind of thing I'm concerned about.
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by WereDragon25 »

I don't know now, I don't want his topic to tear my family apart, but, I think it still might if not for this topic. everyone is on one side or another. Even the usually unbiased ones are now biased, because they have been personally brought into this problem. If I may ask, I suggest that a small group of us, fair, unbiased brothers and sisters, become, not moderators and admins, but, like judges. So that, some of us may judge, and therefore have an insight on the mods decisions, ones that may then describe WHY this happened to the people of the Pack who were not in on the decision, that way the Mods "trials" may still go un-public. Only a small few will be in on the mods discussions. this will be a, compromise, if you will. The mods will no longer have to deal with the "that's unfair!" problem, and the regular members will be told why something happened, without actually being in on the discussions. This is probably a bad idea, but, I have a habit of saying any idea I have, and this is it. But, I'm glad that this is helping to keep the slander off of other threads.
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Morkulv »

I voted out of my own personal experience for the last 4 years I have been here. Furthermore I don't want to discuss this since I don't like digging up old stuff from the past.
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Kaebora »

WereDragon, that could further compound the problem we had with confidentiality in regards to discipline. The idea isn't to make the non-mod members understand anything, but to trust that the decision was made because the circumstances deemed it necessary. To have members simply say, "it was justified" isn't always enough, and it turns into a huge spectacle. So having a committee of members public display the results of deliberations with reasons given, would be like putting someone's crime in a gossip magazine. If this judges idea strikes any other admin or mod as an idea to look at, I suggest they make a post about it in the moderator forum. Otherwise I have been starting to think that getting rid of all confidentiality would give all members a chance to see what's going on, and deter people from acting up because it would become visible to the entire Pack.

The goal is to examine what happened, not why, and (lately) do so without making it publicly known with respect to the person being disciplined. Admins failed to keep to this with Matt's past situation, and some members pushed the mods into saying too much over Sabre's ordeal. It is very difficult to make a tough call, and keep our mouths shut about what went on when many members, including the person that was disciplined, are arguing over the decision.

Now to get to the tough part. Bias. This is the reason why so many friendships are at stake. It isn't that any mods or admins were biased when the decisions were made reciently, but because they weren't. The unbiased mental mode that admins are supposed to turn to ignores whether or not a person is a friend or foe, and focuses on protecting the forum database and the members who use it. This is what lead to most decisions made that I have witnessed to since becoming an active admin. I say "most" because much further back I did see a lot of unfounded leniency with senior members that needed to be stopped.

I would have figured that all of this is simply common sense. As the saying goes, "Common sense isn't all that common."

Also, out of my own experiance here, in Second Life's management, and in four other forums I was past involved with...
Most of the time, the ones that disagree with management are always the ones that were previously disciplined (or friends of the ones that caused trouble).
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Baphnedia »

WereDragon25 wrote:I don't know now, I don't want his topic to tear my family apart, but, I think it still might if not for this topic. everyone is on one side or another. Even the usually unbiased ones are now biased, because they have been personally brought into this problem. If I may ask, I suggest that a small group of us, fair, unbiased brothers and sisters, become, not moderators and admins, but, like judges. So that, some of us may judge, and therefore have an insight on the mods decisions, ones that may then describe WHY this happened to the people of the Pack who were not in on the decision, that way the Mods "trials" may still go un-public. Only a small few will be in on the mods discussions. this will be a, compromise, if you will. The mods will no longer have to deal with the "that's unfair!" problem, and the regular members will be told why something happened, without actually being in on the discussions. This is probably a bad idea, but, I have a habit of saying any idea I have, and this is it. But, I'm glad that this is helping to keep the slander off of other threads.
I agree with you. It is a bad idea. Establishing a watchdog group (no pun intended) whose members are privy to all staff actions and staff sections of the forum, is a bad idea. The watchdog group's members' sole purpose to exalt or smite the members of the staff, individually, or as a whole, when disseminating their opinion of an action to The Pack as the whole creates the similar conditions that led to the recent and/or current dramafest. Those conditions being that in no way, shape or form, should an issue being handled in restricted sections and/or PMs should be made public without consent - even alluding to the event or members or positions of those involved.

The difference being, instead of having one action out of hundreds turning into a drama fest, causing divisions within The Pack, including a group of judges will create conditions where every action is scrutinized, investigated and judged; giving it high potential for the same amount of drama as we have recently witnessed.

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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Kaebora »

If it gets to the point that all members want full disclosure, we'd be better off getting rid of the moderator section and discuss everything in the open. At least that way everyone knows how we reach every conclusion. Though, it's not like big beefy problems come up all that often anyways.
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Vagrant »

Baphnedia wrote:Oh, and yes, I am back. The Pack is like a family. Once you become a member of the family, they won't let you just leave. :P
So true, and that's precisely why this isn't a big deal. This 'us vs them' attitude that might have popped up lately, or the problems we've had with certain members (including myself).

I'm not intending to hurt Sabre with that topic, and I hope no one's standing by with the tar and feathers. All I ask is a moment to explain my feelings on this topic, and recent events in general.

First of all: I won't lie. I admit to having high expectations of people, I'm also the sort who, like Sabre, can feel a bit too emotional and these things are self-defeating, it's lead me to run off with my tail between my legs more often than I can count. How many times have I just abandoned everyone and started over? Too many to count, hence the namesake. I'm just not good at holding down a group of friends.

You can't leave, Baph, they won't let you? Same here, neither can I. Why is that?

There was a time recently when I thought that I was about to retire from the Pack, and leave it all behind, but I didn't, nor could I, simply because there were those who wouldn't let me, and there was a time in the past when I was tempted to do that too, and it didn't occur then either.

There's always someone here who's going to force you to listen up and pay attention, to communicate and heal. And we do have no shortage of healers among us; I would name names but you know who you are. Some of them are admins/mods, some of them aren't, but regardless of their status, they're always trying to fix things up and make everything right again. They never seem to fail either, and for all our sakes, I hope they never do.

So if anything, this post is recognition for them.

I'll talk further on this by saying that after a fashion, we already do have watchdogs, just in an unofficial fashion, but instead of officious people who're out to make people feel nervous and paranoid, they're simply those you can trust to watch your back and look out for you.

Again, you know who you are.

This whole kerfuffle with Sabre? It's pointless drama, because at the end of the day, when things settle down, apologies will hopefully be made and things will return to normal. I don't want Sabre to leave, and I'm even quietly hoping that Sabre will get his admin status back after a time of probation, just so that things can return to normal. (I'll admit, I had no idea either how much Sabre's admin status meant to him, but he has been an admin on these boards for a very long time.)

The thing is, we can all forgive each other, can't we? Now this has all settled down, perhaps it's time for cool-headed words to be exchanged, for feelings to be ameliorated (stole that one from outward, I think, no idea if I'm using it right), and to restore the status quo.

What I've seen is that no matter what happens, and no matter what small disagreements we may have, we do all respect each other, we care what the next one of us thinks, and about them in general. Even our most mainstream and seemingly cold members could admit to this, this I know, and I've seen it. There are always those who'll look out for you here, and there's always someone else who'll be willing to stick their neck out for you and help, no matter who you are or what your station is.

So as I said, perhaps it's time for us to all bury the hatchet with these disputes, lately. And perhaps it's time for me to leave behind any grudges I have too, as lately I don't feel as though there's anyone left I could be even mildly irritated at.

This is the first place I haven't been able to run off from, and because it'll either amuse or make Howlitzer twitch, I'm going to refer to these recent events as the Pack's "global warming". It seemed like a big deal, and as though the World was about to come crashing down around our ears, but given the time to examine the problem rationally and objectively, it appears that none of that is true. Nor should it be.

I don't think there's anything else to say other than that, but as I said, there are people who're always working to make this place the best it could be for everyone. I salute them, and to a great degree I envy them, because I know I couldn't do as good of a job as they do. And providing we all keep looking out for each other, then nothing's ever going to happen to us, and this will continue to be a place that no one ever really wants to leave, at least not forever.

/thread?
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by RedEye »

Not to point out the obvious, but we Admins and Mods do have an oversight group...

The Members of our Pack.

If we do a poor job in any respect, they tell us about it. If we don't listen and take their cautionary warnings,

THEY LEAVE!!!

Can't get much more "Oversight" than that.
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by PariahPoet »

Why would members leaving accomplish anything?

I always thought it was stupid when people announce that they are leaving. This is not aimed at anyone in particular because a lot of people have done it. If you're going to leave, then leave, don't go looking for attention by announcing it. If anyone cares they will e-mail you when they notice you're gone.

I, for one couldn't care less if someone leaves the pack. I have alternate contact information for anyone I care about anyway.
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Howlitzer »

I have to say it, I think having a watchdog group would make things worse....

why? The idea for this watchdog group is because of a perceived problem with our existing group of Admins and Moderators.

The mess that happened over the last week amounts to, put simply, a "political mess".

However, by creating another group to keep an eye on the existing group of Moderator, we're creating another little political microcosm within our forum. Adding one more group of people "in charge" of the people "in charge", rather than keeping it a pure cooperative community, is just adding another level to the political structure.

Furthermore, it shows that the forum has developed an inherent distrust in the very people they SHOULD trust to do their job correctly. That does not send a good message, or foster good attitudes.

Personally I hate politics for the very reason they lead to messes like this, and I feel that doing this would lead to nothing good in the long run, it would only inevitably lead to further power struggles.

If the admins or mods do something wrong, I'm confident in the existing community's ability to bring the problems forward and make sure they are taken care of. We don't need a watchdog group for that, because who watches them?
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Lupin »

Howlitzer wrote:We don't need a watchdog group for that, because who watches them?
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Vagrant »

Pariah: I don't know so much about that.

I agree with you that the concept of a person saying that they're leaving is silly, however, useful things often arise from such posts. It means that someone is getting their feelings out into the open, they had things they needed to resolve, and now their true feelings about whatever was hurting them.

This is useful, because it means that if someone is determined to keep the forum together, then they can try to convince the person who's "leaving" (read as: rather angry) to listen and try to confront their problems and reach some kind of compromise. The thing is, we have quite a few diplomats about the board, and while I'm not one for politics (like Howlitzer in that respect), I do like to see diplomats, especially if they care about the situation and people at hand, which these people do.

If they convince the leaving person to listen, then they can create a working dialogue between that person and whomever else needs to be listening, and problems can then be worked out, and from there, people can forgive and wounds can heal. Perhaps the person who thought they had no choice but to leave might even find out that they were being silly about it, and that that needn't be an option at all.

However, if a person leaves silently, it means that it's likely that none of this will happen, they'll never publically express their feelings, and there'll be no one to try and talk some sense into them and get them to confront these problems instead of just trying to run away from them. If that happens, then it's really a loss, it's a loss for the person and the community, and usually, it's a needless loss at that.

So whilst I think that posts about leaving might be a bit silly, I also think that they can be helpful, and that they do help to resolve problems. And I speak from experience, I recently told Moonraiser that I was considering leaving over something that I'd fabricated in my mind (something that wasn't true at all), I thought I'd hurt and offended people where that wasn't the case, and I'd guilt-tripped myself to the point where I felt I had no choice but to wander off. And this was all idiocy on my point, plain and bloody simple.

It happened once before too, where I thought I'd been an incendiary and useless part of the board, and it was Midnight who knocked some sense into me then. I haven't forgotten that either and I truly appreciate it and him for the effort.

So yes, I do talk from my own rather maudlin vita. An "I'm leaving!" rambling either to a community or to a member thereof can be the difference between one actually disappearing or not.

Howlitzer: I agree with you.

This is something we should be able to handle as a community, just friends looking out for friends on an unofficial level, by making it officious it does introduce another tier into a faux class system, where that idea shouldn't even exist in the first place.

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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by WereDragon25 »

OK, like I said, it was a bad idea. But, does this mean my family isn't in two groups anymore? :D Please? By the way, Baph, I'm glad you're back. And, Vagrant, never leave, you're family, and you can't get out of it, now. :lol: You can't hurt the family that bad, if it was even possible, I would have done it. My drug, alcohal, and tobacco abuse would have done worse than what you can do. AND WAIT A SECOND!!! Everyone has done something bad, that was forgiven, and, yet, one SMALL disagreement has done this much damage. Also, there is no actual solution. No side can ever win, because, no matter the size of this misunderstanding, no one will ever back down from this fight! It's completely pointless! No one can win. Something else to think about, a 15 year old has came up with these ideas, and some of you (No offense to the ones who admitted it was a misunderstanding, and stopped arguing about it, I'm talking about the ones who are too hard-headed to admit that they might be wrong, and are still fighting) are still bickering like kindergarteners about this! I realized this at 15, come on guys!
Last edited by WereDragon25 on Sat May 02, 2009 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Going crazy with all of the work I do, all of the practice I do, and all of the $@#% I have to deal with. God, please help and support Obsidian and I get through this mess.
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Kaebora
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Kaebora »

The primary personality trait that was wanted in all of our admin staff was simply, common sense. Most of them have it. Get a dozen of unbiased common sense minds to discuss a problem, the best solution always comes from it. I personally like this better than one or two admins dictating everything. From my standpoint, things are as organized and well balanced as they can get.
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Re: Moderator Problems

Post by Baphnedia »

Kaebora wrote:From my standpoint, things are as organized and well balanced as they can get.
Dangit! I guess that means I haven't done my job! Image
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