They arrest people for the dumbest reasons

[Set]

http://games.slashdot.org/story/09/08/0 ... le-Hacking

Far from the first time I've seen something like this. It's ridiculous.

[MattSullivan]

It's not ridiculous. Imagine if you wrote a novel, and I came in and altered several chapters without your permission. Then when you protested, I argued "it's my right and you don't have the right to try and stop me."
Or if you drew a piece of art and someone copied it, altered it slightly, and sold it for profit.

This kid doesn't own the patent to these game systems. He broke the law, as lame as it may seem to you. You don't get to pick and choose which law to obey, you either obey it, or you don't

[PariahPoet]

Hmm...That's a bit of a tough call. It didn't say whether he made money because of it or not. I do think people should be able to hack their game consoles if they want(of course that would void the warranty, but if you bought the equipment you should be able to modify it if you want.) Seems a little bit like charging someone because they souped up the engine in their car.
If he was making a profit from what he was doing I could see where that would be a problem, but if he wasn't the whole business seems a bit silly. I don't know. I would have to see the whole article and know exactly what he did to make a call on this one.

[Chris]

It's not ridiculous. Imagine if you wrote a novel, and I came in and altered several chapters without your permission. Then when you protested, I argued "it's my right and you don't have the right to try and stop me."

That's completely not what's happening here. He was modifying consoles with permission of the console owner (himself, or someone else), not waltzing in and damaging someone else's property. A closer analogy would be if I bought a novel and was not allowed to cross-out words, write in the margins, or rip out pages, or ask someone else to for me.

This has nothing to do with patents. The only thing he got in trouble for was the DMCA's BS anti-circumvention provisions, because the modifications allowed people to play unauthorized games (note that this doesn't mean illegally copied games; legal backups, as well as homebrew games and apps, are also affected by things like this). It was not because the systems were modified, it was because the modifications effectively bypassed certain copy-protection mechanisms.

[Terastas]

It's not ridiculous. Imagine if you wrote a novel, and I came in and altered several chapters without your permission. Then when you protested, I argued "it's my right and you don't have the right to try and stop me."

That's completely not what's happening here. He was modifying consoles with permission of the console owner (himself, or someone else), not waltzing in and damaging someone else's property. A closer analogy would be if I bought a novel and was not allowed to cross-out words, write in the margins, or rip out pages, or ask someone else to for me.

Beat me to it. The difference is that he was altering individual systems on the behalf of the individual proprietors that asked for him to do so, not selling altered copies of the systems or infringing on the system provider's intellectual property.

It would be an issue if he was making copies of the system, but since every system he was altering was presumably already bought and payed for, it hardly warrants the comparison.

What I thought of instead was how the great majority of all consoles are Wi-Fi capable. Unlike the net we're running on, the presumption may be that the systems themselves have all the security features they need, so it's not like the average Nintendo owner can protect against hackers or viruses by keeping his Antivirus software updated -- Nintendo has assured him he doesn't need that. Theoretically, one could alter a Wii system to allow any and all viruses or hacking tools seen on the Internet to make their way into Nintendo's system.

I think that's why this comes with a possibility of ten years in prison, but I'm willing to bet that I'm far from the only one who was unaware this law existed, so my guess is that the gaming companies will offer to drop all the charges if he closes his business and let this suffice as a warning to anyone else attempting similar alterations to their systems.

[Figarou]

It's not ridiculous. Imagine if you wrote a novel, and I came in and altered several chapters without your permission. Then when you protested, I argued "it's my right and you don't have the right to try and stop me."

That's completely not what's happening here. He was modifying consoles with permission of the console owner (himself, or someone else), not waltzing in and damaging someone else's property. A closer analogy would be if I bought a novel and was not allowed to cross-out words, write in the margins, or rip out pages, or ask someone else to for me.

This has nothing to do with patents. The only thing he got in trouble for was the DMCA's BS anti-circumvention provisions, because the modifications allowed people to play unauthorized games (note that this doesn't mean illegally copied games; legal backups, as well as homebrew games and apps, are also affected by things like this). It was not because the systems were modified, it was because the modifications effectively bypassed certain copy-protection mechanisms.

The term "back up" is used in a lot of applications. If I wanted to "back up" a novel, I'd have to scan every page. Back up a DVD? I just put the DVD in my PC, then copy it on the hard drive. Or burn it on a DVD-R. Back up a music CD? Well.....there are MANY places to "back up" the music. An ipod, iphone, mp3 player, Tape recorder, CD recorder, PSP, PS3... the list goes on. "Back up" a game? Hmmm.....it's not that easy to "back up" my Wii games unless....I...modify my Wii.


I know one thing about "Homebrew" and it's apps. I'm surprised at what they did to the Nintendo Wii. Sure...Nintendo adding USB ports and an SD card reader to the Wii makes the game console more user friendly. But these hackers had a field day when they broke into the console's operating system. In the past, you had to take your console to someone who knows how to install a modchip. Then you can play burned/copied games.

You don't need to take the Wii to anyone to modify it. You can do it yourself. You download apps and use the "Homebrew" to change the operating system. No modchips or taking apart the wii is necessary. One app they have is called a USB loader. Its gives you the option to add a hard drive to the Wii and "back up" your games. No need to burn copies on disc. You simply insert the game into the Wii and it'll make a copy to the hard drive. It's great to have a "back up" of what you own. But not everyone will use it that way. Some are borrowing, or renting Wii games and placing it on their hard drive. You save money....but in return...game makers are losing money.

The music industry has lost money for many MANY years when people was able to copy the music to the widely common "cassette tape." Has anything been done to stop this? No. Advances in technology made "backing up"/copying even easier. It's just that not everyone is using it to "backup" what they have. They want to save money by borrowing, downloading, or renting instead of "buying."

[Xiroteus]

We may not get to pick and choose what laws we follow, however, we do not have to agree with them nor does something being a law make said action wrong, fines are one thing, jail time, I do not think so, I just think there are more important serious matters people should go to jail for.

Should people be playing copies, I imagine not.

[Figarou]

I agree with Matt when it comes to alterations. There are some things you can't change even if you own that item. You can modify a car to suit your needs. But you can't change what it uses for fuel.

I don't think anyone has done changes to a current novel. It's hard to alter something that's already published. But I do know that someone could take ideas from it and write his own.

It's different when it comes to game consoles. More and more games are being made. With so many games out there, it's impossible to own each and every one. One game alone is about $50. Try getting 100 games at that price. It has forced people to find alternatives. And that's by modifying the console to play copies. It's been done for years. Yet they still make games and consoles. Who knows if they'll ever make a hack proof game console. Only time will tell.

[Chris]

I tend to get heated on discussions about this, so I'll try to keep it short. And if I get too argumentative, just slap me.

This has nothing to do with patents. The only thing he got in trouble for was the DMCA's BS anti-circumvention provisions, because the modifications allowed people to play unauthorized games (note that this doesn't mean illegally copied games; legal backups, as well as homebrew games and apps, are also affected by things like this). It was not because the systems were modified, it was because the modifications effectively bypassed certain copy-protection mechanisms.

The term "back up" is used in a lot of applications. If I wanted to "back up" a novel, I'd have to scan every page. Back up a DVD? I just put the DVD in my PC, then copy it on the hard drive. Or burn it on a DVD-R. Back up a music CD? Well.....there are MANY places to "back up" the music. An ipod, iphone, mp3 player, Tape recorder, CD recorder, PSP, PS3... the list goes on. "Back up" a game? Hmmm.....it's not that easy to "back up" my Wii games unless....I...modify my Wii.

Copyright law has provisions allowing you to make a reasonable number of backups for the media you own, if you can reasonably assume it will be damaged. And as CDs/DVDs are flimsy plastic, there really isn't any question on that.

A typical method would be to copy your DVDs to your hard drive or to DVD-Rs, then store the original someplace safe where it wouldn't be damaged (then if those copies get damaged, eg. the hard drive fails or the DVD-R breaks, you can take out the original and make another copy to use). But of course, many games force you to use the original disc, making any backups worthless.. consoles even have built-in hardware to prevent such discs from working.

Personally, I'd be much more willing to buy games if I could be sure it was a long-term investment. I like playing games decades after they're released, and I need to be assured it will last that long. If I can't be sure of that, they don't get my money because I won't buy it.

Advances in technology made "backing up"/copying even easier. It's just that not everyone is using it to "backup" what they have. They want to save money by borrowing, downloading, or renting instead of "buying."

So punish those people. Don't punish and restrict the freedoms of people that would use it legally.

[Figarou]

Copyright law has provisions allowing you to make a reasonable number of backups for the media you own, if you can reasonably assume it will be damaged. And as CDs/DVDs are flimsy plastic, there really isn't any question on that.

You can't even make one copy of a movie DVD because there is copy protection on it. In order to "backup" a movie DVD, you have to bypass the copy protection by using a program that'll disable it. So...to the movie industry...it's illegal to make a backup. From our point of view, its not because you want to protect the original.

But of course, many games force you to use the original disc, making any backups worthless.. consoles even have built-in hardware to prevent such discs from working.

Again......in order to play copied games, you have to bypass that built-in hardware by....you guessed it.....modifying the console.

Advances in technology made "backing up"/copying even easier. It's just that not everyone is using it to "backup" what they have. They want to save money by borrowing, downloading, or renting instead of "buying."

So punish those people. Don't punish and restrict the freedoms of people that would use it legally.

You probably at one time made a copy of something illegally without even knowing it. Heck, I was recording music from the radio on cassette tape when I was young. Was it illegal? I'm not sure. The FBI didn't come crashing through my door. So I guess I'm ok. You know...I didn't like it when the DJ starting talking before the music ended during recording. But at least I got that song for free.

[Chris]

Copyright law has provisions allowing you to make a reasonable number of backups for the media you own, if you can reasonably assume it will be damaged. And as CDs/DVDs are flimsy plastic, there really isn't any question on that.

You can't even make one copy of a movie DVD because there is copy protection on it. In order to "backup" a movie DVD, you have to bypass the copy protection by using a program that'll disable it.

And exactly why I call it BS. The backups you are legally entitled to, and should, make become (at best) worthless because some companies are afraid they might not get as much money as they would otherwise (and truth be told, there actually is no study saying that video game piracy leads to a decrease in sales; the only relevant studies have been done on the music industry, and they actually show music piracy had a positive effect on sales.. see this and this).

These companies effectively make it illegal to exercise your right to preserve the things you own. And that's the kicker.. it doesn't in any way actually stop illegal copying and distribution (the kind that would still be illegal even if there wasn't any copy protection on it), but it stops law-abiding people from trying to preserve their belongings.

You probably at one time made a copy of something illegally without even knowing it. Heck, I was recording music from the radio on cassette tape when I was young. Was it illegal? I'm not sure.

Teaching people what you are and aren't allowed to do would be a good step. However, you won't see these companies try to do that because the more informed a consumer is, the better able they are to avoid the scams they try to pull and call them out on it.

[Morkulv]

[Uniform Two Six]

I'm personally a big 'fan' of piracy, because of the reason that it keeps the economy in media in balance. People now are giving movies away for low prices on DVD or in cheap boxed sets, which is a huge improvement.

Well, you know, now that I think about it... The financial industry does some pretty unethical things, like marketing loans to people who cannot afford them, and then taking their collateral property away when they default on the loans. You know what? You're right. I should just go downtown and rob the local bank. It'll restore the "balance", and maybe the banks will stop their unethical behavior.

I hope that the same will happen for games so that games will also be alot more available to casual people too.

Yeah, and if I rob the bank, it only hurts a big faceless corporation and the only effect is that it makes money "more available".

They are not going to stop piracy by force because the community around it is simply too big. I saw the game Deathspace in stores for around 70 Euro which is alot of money, so I was pleased to see that the game was hacked and made available for free so that I can at least try it out to see if it runs good and to see if I even like it or not.

Yeah, and they're not going to end armed robbery by outlawing it either. Maybe we should make armed robbery of a bank legal, then.

It is ILLEGAL. If you break the law, you need to be prepared to accept the consequences of those actions. You cannot blame anybody but yourself. It is NOT society's fault. If you disagree with a law, that does NOT give you the right to break it. If you willfully engage in criminal conduct, you are a criminal. Period.

[Set]

The issue here isn't about copyright. It's about other people telling you what you can do with your own property.

There was a similar story on Slashdot a while back. Some guy got arrested, his house searched and his property seized all because he modified his DVD player to be able to watch movies outside of his "region code".

It's getting out of hand. It really is.

[Figarou]

There was a similar story on Slashdot a while back. Some guy got arrested, his house searched and his property seized all because he modified his DVD player to be able to watch movies outside of his "region code".

Want to know something funny? There are some DVD players that has a hidden code to disable the region code. The Philips DVP642 is one of them. I bought it at Wal-Mart for that reason. (To make it region free)

This is how it's done.

1. Turn on the player.
2. Open the tray.
3. Press the following sequence on the remote:
7 8 9 OK 0
4. The number 0 will appear on the lower left side of your screen.
5. Your player is now region free! Put in a DVD and enjoy!

NOTE: The 0 in the sequence above represents the region code. 0 = region free. If you want to change your player to just a specific region code, replace the 0 with the region number you want.

[Morkulv]

I'm personally a big 'fan' of piracy, because of the reason that it keeps the economy in media in balance. People now are giving movies away for low prices on DVD or in cheap boxed sets, which is a huge improvement.

Well, you know, now that I think about it... The financial industry does some pretty unethical things, like marketing loans to people who cannot afford them, and then taking their collateral property away when they default on the loans. You know what? You're right. I should just go downtown and rob the local bank. It'll restore the "balance", and maybe the banks will stop their unethical behavior.

I hope that the same will happen for games so that games will also be alot more available to casual people too.

Yeah, and if I rob the bank, it only hurts a big faceless corporation and the only effect is that it makes money "more available".

They are not going to stop piracy by force because the community around it is simply too big. I saw the game Deathspace in stores for around 70 Euro which is alot of money, so I was pleased to see that the game was hacked and made available for free so that I can at least try it out to see if it runs good and to see if I even like it or not.

Yeah, and they're not going to end armed robbery by outlawing it either. Maybe we should make armed robbery of a bank legal, then.

It is ILLEGAL. If you break the law, you need to be prepared to accept the consequences of those actions. You cannot blame anybody but yourself. It is NOT society's fault. If you disagree with a law, that does NOT give you the right to break it. If you willfully engage in criminal conduct, you are a criminal. Period.

I will never understand why downloading media is compared to armed robbery and such by anti-piracy people. Like I said before, take a look at products in one store, then go take a look at those same products in another store. Big difference, and not just by a few cents. If you have a lot of money to offer, then by all means go ahead, but casual people cannot afford such prices which is why piracy is such a usefull alternative. If you look at it from that side you will see what I mean.

[Morkulv]

The issue here isn't about copyright. It's about other people telling you what you can do with your own property.

There was a similar story on Slashdot a while back. Some guy got arrested, his house searched and his property seized all because he modified his DVD player to be able to watch movies outside of his "region code".

It's getting out of hand. It really is.

I completely agree.

[Uniform Two Six]

I will never understand why downloading media is compared to armed robbery and such by anti-piracy people. If you have a lot of money to offer, then by all means go ahead, but casual people cannot afford such prices which is why piracy is such a usefull alternative.

Okay. Forget armed robbery. Try tax evasion. In the U.S. we didn't have personal income tax until about a century ago. Then one day they passed a law that levied persoanl income tax. A great many people in this country were unhappy about this (A great many still are). If you don't like having to pay income tax, does that give you the right to commit non-payment of federal income tax? It's ILLEGAL. If you don't like the requirements regarding modification of a WII or whatever, DON'T BUY THE SILLY THING. Piracy is theft. If you cannot afford something, that does NOT give you the right to steal it.

[MattSullivan]

You want game companies to keep making games, quit "sabotaging" them by pirating every little thing or altering the system to play the competition's stuff. A game company can't make games if it has no money ( Well sure it can make crappy games no one wants )

Cripes, quit playing "oppressed consumer" and just PAY for something once in a while. It's not like you're being hosed down in the street. This kid broke the law, and if YOU break the law you MIGHT get caught and punished. Hell I got a ticket for JAYWALKING last year. The stupidest law in the land. But I paid the fine and moved on.

[Wingman]

Well, Matt, I think that one of the issues here is that the modifications are not legally available, at all, at any price. I can't think of a reason why some of the modifications are not legally available from the manufacturer, or from certified technicians. As is, I can't take my PS3 in to a computer shop and get them to make it able to play dvds with different region codes(which has so far only been a problem once, admittedly) as such is an illegal modification. Right now, it seems like they dropped the ball on that one, as I'm sure they could make millions by offering such modifications as a legal option.
I also fail to see how enabling a console to play other games(such as a PS3 that can play XBOX games, or whatnot) is costing them profit. Right now, most gamers seem to be along the lines of "Own system X, but want to play a game for system Y, but don't have the disposable income, or justification, to buy system Y for the sole purpose of playing that one game. The cost of a game isn't much compared to the cost of the system, but it's still more than nothing, which is what they are currently getting from such gamers. That includes me, there are XBOX games I want to play, but not badly enough to pay a couple hundred bucks to buy the system and the game. I'd much rather pay a small fee and get my PS3 modified to play the game.

Sure, it would cost them in terms of console sales, but such just seems to follow the "tough luck" mindset of most companies. If the consumers buy more of your product, good for you, tough luck to the other competitors. In fact, I'm pretty sure the only reason such a system is not in place is due to the amount of collateral damage and whining it would bring about.

[Figarou]

The cost of a game isn't much compared to the cost of the system, but it's still more than nothing, which is what they are currently getting from such gamers. That includes me, there are XBOX games I want to play, but not badly enough to pay a couple hundred bucks to buy the system and the game. I'd much rather pay a small fee and get my PS3 modified to play the game.

Some game makers provide the same game for all consoles. Its those exclusives that'll force you to buy their console. The good thing is that you buy that console one time. It doesn't add up when you constantly buy games for 3 consoles. Just like ink refills in those Canon printers. Those ink refills will eat you alive when you have to keep on buying them. You'll be spending more money on ink compared to the printer. The games will cost more than the console if you're always getting a new game every few weeks.

[Berserker]

I also fail to see how enabling a console to play other games(such as a PS3 that can play XBOX games, or whatnot) is costing them profit.

How do you fail to see it? It seems pretty simple and linear to me.

Microsoft spends $100 to manufacture an XBox.
Microsoft sells an XBox for $150 to someone who wants to play XBox games. In fact, Microsoft forecasts a certain number of people to buy their console, and bases part of their business plan on it.
Microsoft gets $50 profit.

Whoops, instead, the person who wants to play XBox games went and stole the ability to play them. Not only did Microsoft get 0 profit, they're now out $100 for every XBox that sits on the shelf. The thief just took a dump all over Microsoft.

Video games are 100% luxury items. Being a "gamer" is a hobby just like any other... I play Magic Cards as a hobby, but I don't counterfeit my own, I buy them. I say if you want to play XBox games, then buy an XBox. Just because a person can't afford a video game system is absolutely no justification for stealing it (and I do think hacking a PS3 to play a competitor's games is tantamount to stealing.)

[Berserker]

Just like ink refills in those Canon printers. Those ink refills will eat you alive when you have to keep on buying them. You'll be spending more money on ink compared to the printer. The games will cost more than the console if you're always getting a new game every few weeks.

Not a good comparison... ink is a consumable, a game is not. You can technically buy 1 game and play it indefinitely. I know people who bought Final Fantasy X and played it for 6 months before getting another game. Personally, I played Diablo 2 for two years before I got tired of it.

Furthermore, every new game is different, and ink will always be the same ink.

[Figarou]

Just like ink refills in those Canon printers. Those ink refills will eat you alive when you have to keep on buying them. You'll be spending more money on ink compared to the printer. The games will cost more than the console if you're always getting a new game every few weeks.

Not a good comparison... ink is a consumable, a game is not. You can technically buy 1 game and play it indefinitely. I know people who bought Final Fantasy X and played it for 6 months before getting another game. Personally, I played Diablo 2 for two years before I got tired of it.

Furthermore, every new game is different, and ink will always be the same ink.

Sure, every game is different. So is the replay value.
I know some people who got tired of the game just days after buying it. And not everyone keeps the game. They trade it in for something new or used at Gamestop. They lose out because Gamestop doesn't give what you originally paid for.

[Morkulv]

I will never understand why downloading media is compared to armed robbery and such by anti-piracy people. If you have a lot of money to offer, then by all means go ahead, but casual people cannot afford such prices which is why piracy is such a usefull alternative.

Okay. Forget armed robbery. Try tax evasion. In the U.S. we didn't have personal income tax until about a century ago. Then one day they passed a law that levied persoanl income tax. A great many people in this country were unhappy about this (A great many still are). If you don't like having to pay income tax, does that give you the right to commit non-payment of federal income tax? It's ILLEGAL. If you don't like the requirements regarding modification of a WII or whatever, DON'T BUY THE SILLY THING. Piracy is theft. If you cannot afford something, that does NOT give you the right to steal it.

I'm not from the US so I wouldn't know. Anyway, I'm talking in general.

Companies can label it illegal all they can for all I care, when there is a free alternative available people will go for it, its simply as that. Since we are on the topic of games, lets take a look at the shareware-software that was revolutionary in the 90's. People can download or get the shareware-version of a game completely for free which includes one whole campaign/world instead of one little level, and when people still want more they can buy the full version. Its very simple, it works, and it has a lot more playability then a one-level demo and consumers have a lot more room to check out the game to see if they like it or not. I want to bet that if companies kept the shareware-formula it would decrease piracy a LOT for games. Ask a few old-school gamers about shareware and they will most likely feel the same way about it as me. Instead of that developers tease the audience with a few screenshots and/or video's and throw their games onto the shelves for 70 Euro's (which is almost the same in dollar-currency nowadays I think) and expect people to just take a wild guess and risk buying a game that doesn't run properly on their computer or a game that they simply don't like for some reason. And let me add to that that not every store gives refunds when it comes to games or media in general, I've had that occuring multiple times when I bought software.

My point is that I (personally at least) do not download anything because I don't want to spend money on it, but because piracy gives me the oppertunity to try something out. I even downloaded ripped games where the people that ripped the games even plain and simple recommended people to buy the real game if they liked it. Like I said; if I really enjoy a game, I'm going to buy it anyway.

You want game companies to keep making games, quit "sabotaging" them by pirating every little thing or altering the system to play the competition's stuff. A game company can't make games if it has no money ( Well sure it can make crappy games no one wants )

Cripes, quit playing "oppressed consumer" and just PAY for something once in a while. It's not like you're being hosed down in the street. This kid broke the law, and if YOU break the law you MIGHT get caught and punished. Hell I got a ticket for JAYWALKING last year. The stupidest law in the land. But I paid the fine and moved on.

I don't get that... Why does a company need so much money to produce good games? I know quite some game-developers like the people who made Serious Sam, and they started out with basically a couple of people with no budget what so ever, and nearly every big developer and publisher out there started out small, so I don't see why they need so much money, especially when they ask so much for it. And I'm not nitpicking here either; with 70 Euro's I can get grocery's for 3 over weeks.

Anyway, I really don't think paying a fine for jaywalking is a good comparison to paying fines like 10.000 dollars/euro's for downloading a couple of songs of the internet.