Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

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Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by takyoji »

I don't quite have a complete design envisioned yet as of how main pages of The Packs Den shall look (excluding the forum section). Also, I don't quite know what a lot of you would look for in a new web design for The Packs Den. Thus I figured I'd ask for what you guys want instead of making something that just a few would want. So, here's a couple questions:

Do you prefer rounded-corners or square corners? Rounded-corners take more time to be put together and sometimes are messier code-wise.

Should there be margins between boxes? Margins are usually nice to have, although it does decrease the amount of space availabe (horizontally).

Any specific colors at all?
Just follow the black, blue, and gold concept? Or do a mix of different shades of black and blue? Also, should there be dark text on a light background or a light text on a dark background?

What forms of background coloring should there be?
There's usually solid coloring, gradients, gloss, or some form of texture. Fluid-width or static width?
  • Fluid-width - It changes width when you resize your browser window
  • Static width - Width doesn't change when resized
Static-width is much easier to create. While fluid width is more difficult to create.

Any stock imagery to be involved?
It would be nice to have some stock imagery, but as long as we have ownership of the actual stock imagery. Also, it would be nice for it to be related to The Packs Den. Otherwise stock imagery isn't a requirement.

Is there any specific webdesign of a website that you like?
If so, link to it. Also point out the details you like about it.

Otherwise I know the pages I linked to as examples aren't exactly the best examples. It's just whatever I could find quickly. Also, when you reply, you don't need to answer each question. You don't even have to answer any of the questions, instead, you can just give an explanation of what you'd like to see instead of stating it as individual answers.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Set »

Only real preference I have is that the background be dark. My eyes are too light sensitive to be staring at that much white.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Berserker »

I like the current color set. I like square corners, slight margins, and static width. I like either solid colors or something textural, but the texture should be reserved and simple. If we have a solid banner with appropriately werewolf-specific logo or imagery, I don't think stock pictures are necessary. (Although the wolf photo in the background of the original front page was pretty cool I guess.)
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by takyoji »

Berserker wrote:I like the current color set. I like square corners, slight margins, and static width. I like either solid colors or something textural, but the texture should be reserved and simple. If we have a solid banner with appropriately werewolf-specific logo or imagery, I don't think stock pictures are necessary. (Although the wolf photo in the background of the original front page was pretty cool I guess.)
Luckily that pretty much matches what I was thinking of doing for The Packs Den. I was considering pretty much everything you stated, however, the background would be a nice big image of the logo for The Pack. Then the foreground would be transparent enough to see the logo through the foreground (but not too much). Otherwise I could have the design coded today.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Berserker »

You should go ahead and do it. No one here has any objections.

I also agree with the Pack logo being in the background subtly. It's a good enough logo to not abandon.

Hopefully we can whip together a good banner. Gotta find the photoshop people in the Pack.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Berserker »

Ideas for front-page content that would be very easy to keep up to date. "Of the week stuff" is especially relevant.

Writer's Den: Werewolf story of the week.
Wolf Vision: Werewolf artwork of the week.

etc.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Kaebora »

As long as we can optionally keep the original design, I have no preference.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Berserker »

I thought the original design was programmed by someone who is no longer with The Pack, and so it probably can't be recreated in a good way. Am I right here?

I didn't have a problem with the original front page design from an aesthetic standpoint. Just that it was bereft of content, had dead sections, and was functionally obsolete.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by outwarddoodles »

I think you should start on the website, create a basic-template, and allow the pack members to comment on what should be changed, what they like, how you can add to it, etc etc. I'm unsure if this process would be too tedious for you or not, as it might end in changing code you've already spent time writing up.

I think everyone here agrees on keeping the original colour scheme. As for other detials, they'll probably get mixed up in personal opinion/preference, and I think it should be up to you to design the site to make it as fuctional and usable as posible -- everyone will have ideas on what the site should look like, but we can only have one design.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Berserker »

You have a good point outwarddoodles, but takyoji has been trying to get member input for months with little or no results. :| If he puts up a vote, I have a feeling it'll get checked by between only 3 to 7 people.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by takyoji »

Berserker wrote:I thought the original design was programmed by someone who is no longer with The Pack, and so it probably can't be recreated in a good way. Am I right here?

I didn't have a problem with the original front page design from an aesthetic standpoint. Just that it was bereft of content, had dead sections, and was functionally obsolete.
The reasons for changing the main pages are:
  • It was just exported from an image editing program, which means:
    • All imagery, no actual text. (That's poor search engine optimization)
    • Formed of purely just tables and images.
    • Cannot be edited without the original file.
    • The original image is even needed just to add something to the navigation
    • Larger file size, thus longer load time
    • There's no alt text attributes to the imagery
    • Incompliant code (just like the typical WYSIWYG editor can do, but not as horrible as Microsoft products do)
  • There's spelling errors last I remember
  • +37 problems in this checklist applies: http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/does-my ... t-one.html (as of only the applicable details)
  • There's pages that are publicly visible that state "under construction"
  • There's an element in the navigation to go to the "Gallery" which no longer exists. And I can't remove that element from the navigation. I'd have to end up redirecting that to a "under construction" page.
  • It wasn't created to support dynamic content. It's just one big static image that cannot be stretched (since it doesn't utilize image slicing).
Otherwise there is a "web design by Anthony Brownrigg" tucked in corner that runs vertically. I'm not saying that it's a horrible design, it just wasn't created to be maintainable at all and uses bad methods of HTML for it to be presented. Of course I could probably clone stamp out parts to create the base image for each page, but still, the design is very limiting of what content can be presented.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by takyoji »

Here's there general concept I came up with: http://thepack.network/thepacksden/example.htm
It looks crappy since it's just plain ol text right now. Otherwise I don't think I've gotten the perfect set of colors just yet. But yea, it's a bit plain right now; and I think the background image causes a little bit of an imbalance (in contrary to the body section) but can't quite think of how to make it seem balanced unless if I have the background image staticly (stays at one part of the page) positioned instead of fixed (doesn't change position as you scroll).
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by outwarddoodles »

You're right about the colours. The blue is a little too...blue, for me. I honestly like the idea of a darker/black/less-saturated background. The white/blue colour scheme is too plain. Could we add some orange/yellows?

Does anyone have any ideas for art? I'm willing to photoshop any images together.

What are you planning on putting on the homepage? A brief bio of what we're about, and information about the site layout? I like the idea of the homepage also having condensed news of the changes occuring around the site (new article in the news section, changes on forums, new story in the den, etc etc.)

If we change the "writer's den" to 'artist's den,' we could include the gallery in there. There will be a new gallery for the new site, right?

Otherwise: I realize this is only a start, and it honestly looks great to me already as it is. Needless to say, I'm curious about the place-holder text currently on the site.
:D
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by takyoji »

outwarddoodles wrote:You're right about the colours. The blue is a little too...blue, for me. I honestly like the idea of a darker/black/less-saturated background. The white/blue colour scheme is too plain. Could we add some orange/yellows?

Does anyone have any ideas for art? I'm willing to photoshop any images together.

What are you planning on putting on the homepage? A brief bio of what we're about, and information about the site layout? I like the idea of the homepage also having condensed news of the changes occuring around the site (new article in the news section, changes on forums, new story in the den, etc etc.)

If we change the "writer's den" to 'artist's den,' we could include the gallery in there. There will be a new gallery for the new site, right?

Otherwise: I realize this is only a start, and it honestly looks great to me already as it is. Needless to say, I'm curious about the place-holder text currently on the site.
:D
I agree with the idea of the softer colors (considering that it looks practically 100% saturate like base colors); I just wasn't trying to make it too non-saturate for it to seem "dull" as of a comment I received a while ago when I was trying to make a new layout for the phpBB 3 upgrade. Otherwise it's hard to think of how to incorporate a yellow, orange, or gold color.

In regards of art, I think collages are little silly, one consistent image usually looks better. Otherwise I'm in debate of what type of image should be in the header in the first place.

The homepage will probably be a brief intro with a news section following it. Otherwise that can be debated later since that isn't defining about the design-aspect of the page.

Also, I would like to have a gallery as well with the new structure. In fact, I think I found the old gallery installation that was hidden in a private location on the server which I could transfer to the new structure while also removing the spam from it. Last of all, the placeholder text is just Lorem Ipsum.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by outwarddoodles »

Last of all, the placeholder text is just Lorem Ipsum.
How interesting.
:D
I agree with the idea of the softer colors (considering that it looks practically 100% saturate like base colors); I just wasn't trying to make it too non-saturate for it to seem "dull" as of a comment I received a while ago when I was trying to make a new layout for the phpBB 3 upgrade. Otherwise it's hard to think of how to incorporate a yellow, orange, or gold color.
I think the colours for the forum here works just fine. Is it posible you could incorporate those?
In regards of art, I think collages are little silly, one consistent image usually looks better. Otherwise I'm in debate of what type of image should be in the header in the first place.
That'll be a project for later, I suppose. Also: as always. feel free to make a poll about the images if you're uncertain. I know a lot of people probably do no lookat/respond to the topics in "website updates" section, so you could probably bend some rules and post a poll in the general discussion....
The homepage will probably be a brief intro with a news section following it. Otherwise that can be debated later since that isn't defining about the design-aspect of the page.
Yeah, I thought about that immediately after I posted. Layout first, then worry about the content.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Shadow Wulf »

Its a good basic design. I agree with outward, about the colors being to saturated and too much blue and incorporating the forums colors to the main page. I personally prefer square corners and no margins, just looks neater IMO.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Silverclaw »

I like, from the examples, square corners, using margins, and texures.

I'd like to see the colors we use now to stay.

Also a werewolf-themed banner would be great. Maybe we could change the picture each month. Different artists or cool wolf photos, ect. Sortof what like FurAffinity does. *shrugs*

Just some thoughts. :)
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Kaebora »

The search engine problem is a simple fix, as you said, to add alt tags to the images. Very easy to do without changing anything visibly, and any search engine can detect it. Typically on the title page I put search tags in the Header line of the HTML code so I don't have to rely as much on search spiders looking at the content.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by takyoji »

Kaebora wrote:The search engine problem is a simple fix, as you said, to add alt tags to the images. Very easy to do without changing anything visibly, and any search engine can detect it. Typically on the title page I put search tags in the Header line of the HTML code so I don't have to rely as much on search spiders looking at the content.
The alt tag attribute is for describing a picture. A picture is supposed to help portray additional visual information, it's not meant to be for the content itself. Theoretically (considering it varies upon the search engine) it's less crediting to have content as images instead of ASCII text. In contrary, it could also look like alt attribute bloat which is under the spectrum of black hat SEO. Last of all, it's just bad web design to have to rely on images in tables to portray your content; all it takes is a little knowledge of CSS and image slicing to make an expandable design that supports textual content.

By the way, why did you outright deny the idea of even changing the layout before an example was shown? We need a layout that's expandable in order to make these improvements with the website. Thus, are you also denying the concept of increasing content that's outside of the forum? I can't make new pages and/or make edits to the content of the pages without the source documents. Yes, I can manually go into the HTML and insert the alt attributes, but nothing else with the pages are going to be changeable. Thus if we for some reason were to keep the current design alternately, then any of the new additions wouldn't be possible on the current layout.

If you can retrieve the source documents of the pages, make the design so that the layout is expandable, and code it properly in valid HTML 4/XHTML with CSS; then by all means go ahead and we could use it if that's what you desire. But since that isn't the case, we have to go with a different design that supports our requirements.
Silverclaw wrote:I like, from the examples, square corners, using margins, and texures.

I'd like to see the colors we use now to stay.

Also a werewolf-themed banner would be great. Maybe we could change the picture each month. Different artists or cool wolf photos, ect. Sortof what like FurAffinity does. *shrugs*

Just some thoughts. :)
I find that idea interesting. It's better than just having one image on the layout for the whole lifespan of the design.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Berserker »

The original front page was junky, and I'm guessing the only reason it existed at all is because The Pack never had a pro webmaster in the early days. I'm glad takyoji is giving us a proper site!

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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by outwarddoodles »

Silverclaw wrote:Also a werewolf-themed banner would be great. Maybe we could change the picture each month. Different artists or cool wolf photos, ect. Sortof what like FurAffinity does. *shrugs*
I love this idea. But will we have enough regular art to use?
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by takyoji »

I wasn't quite satisfied with my original idea. Here's something different that I made that looks even better to me than the previous one:
http://thepacksden.com/thepacksden/preview.png

Right now it's just an image since I haven't coded it yet at all. Otherwise I was wondering if I should do this one instead, or follow along with the current one at hand. Other than that, I'm debating on the drop shadows yet. They make it more interesting, but they can also make the code just a little messier and complex. Hopefully I struck a good idea.

Other than that, should the navigation be horizontal, or to the side and vertical? Or a hybrid? I usually tend to do a hybrid or have the navigation to the left.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Spongy »

That looks even better than the last one!
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Kaebora »

takyoji wrote:
Kaebora wrote:The search engine problem is a simple fix, as you said, to add alt tags to the images. Very easy to do without changing anything visibly, and any search engine can detect it. Typically on the title page I put search tags in the Header line of the HTML code so I don't have to rely as much on search spiders looking at the content.
If you can retrieve the source documents of the pages, make the design so that the layout is expandable, and code it properly in valid HTML 4/XHTML with CSS; then by all means go ahead and we could use it if that's what you desire. But since that isn't the case, we have to go with a different design that supports our requirements.
I can try and contact Anthony, who has the source files. I can go in and edit the photoshop images to allow expandability, and at least hand you multiple versions to work with. I'm sure that with the assurance that we wont leak his source data he would oblidge.
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Re: Brainstorming and commentary for the new design

Post by Berserker »

takyoji wrote:I wasn't quite satisfied with my original idea. Here's something different that I made that looks even better to me than the previous one:
http://thepacksden.com/thepacksden/preview.png


Other than that, should the navigation be horizontal, or to the side and vertical? Or a hybrid? I usually tend to do a hybrid or have the navigation to the left.
Great new design. I agree with the navigation being a hybrid and to the left.

Kaebora, I wouldn't rely on AB to come through with dug up source documents for our old-and-busted website. He's already way too busy. Just let takyoji do his work. Why so adamant about the original design, anyway? Beyond the formatting and programming problems, it was clunky, and the image-based layout was poor. It would probably be much easier and better for takyoji to come up with a slick, modernized new HTML design rather than hack away trying to fix the old one.
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