The Pack Wiki

Here is where you can find whats happening on the website, and current, and future updates.

Would you be interested in a wiki for The Pack that details how a werewolf should be?

Yes
28
82%
No
5
15%
2 - Doesn’t really care either way
1
3%
 
Total votes: 34

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The Pack Wiki

Post by Celestialwolf » Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:48 pm

As we all know, this forum was originally to created by Anthony Brownrigg so he could see how fans really wanted werewolves to be portrayed in the upcoming movie Freeborn.

There have been many ideas and opinions that have been discussed and voted on and whatnot, and it can be hard trying to keep track of everything that's been presented.

On another thread, I mentioned that it might be nice to have a wiki for The Pack where the information about the ideal werewolf we've come up with is organized and searchable for everyone to view, especially new members who'd like to post but don't know what we've already been over. Each piece of information could have a link back to the thread(s) where it was originally discussed to make it that much easier.

I know there are many different views on how the werewolf should be; my idea would be to go with the general group consensus. Where the issue is too evenly split to decide in that manner, we can briefly list the two or three most prevalent variations of that idea.

I've started one here (this is the best wiki site I saw--feel free to suggest alternative sites; I haven't added much yet):

[replaced by link below]

What do you all think about that? Is there enough potential interest in a wiki for The Pack? Would you be willing to help contribute and maintain it?

EDIT: I installed MediaWiki on my webhost; this is now the official Pack wiki: http://thepack.rcromar.com/wiki/

Feel free to contribute!
Last edited by Celestialwolf on Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Midnight » Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:56 am

.
Last edited by Midnight on Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Celestialwolf » Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:35 am

Yeah, I actually have space I'm paying for to host my site as well as my dad's business site--I even have fantastico deluxe which has an option to install a wiki app or database (whatever it's called). I would put it there, but I don't know how long I'll keep the hosting service (the plan is indefinitely, but who knows?) and it seemed like the one at Wikia looked a lot more like Wikipedia than the other (unless I'm mistaken?).

Depends on what everyone thinks--if I host it on my site, the database should be able to move wherever it needs to if that becomes necessary...
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Wingman » Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:15 am

Cool, though I'm unfamiliar with the wikia format so I'll need to wrap my head around it before I can be of much help.
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Vagrant » Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:16 am

Ever since you first suggested it in another thread, I've thought this was a bally brilliant idea. I can see so many problems it would solve, too, just by providing us with an information source. At the very least, it would help us avoid needlessly rehashing things.

I'm inclined to agree with Midnight, though. I think your sentiment was generous, Celestial, and it shows how kind of a person you are to get work underway with setting it up, but at the end of the day we'll have more freedom if we run our own wiki. And if your host falls through, I could support hosting for a bit in the interim, as is necessary. I think Baph has space too, he might be able to help us out.

As for the kind of software, it's actually possible to get exactly the same software that Wikipedia uses, that software, like almost all wiki software, is open source and freely usable. If you needed any help getting it set up, I could lend a hand too. I've put online a few wikis in the past, different software bases too. So I'm used to it. It can be a bit messy but it's always worth it in the end.

And we have a few talented designers here (you know who you are!) who could help us pretty up the templates, too. So this could end up becoming a really grand thing, if we all work together at it.

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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Wingman » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:46 am

Alrighty, I'm in the process of whipping up a list of traits, which should contain most of the types and varieties out there. Just so you know.
Here is what I have thus far. Pretty basic stuff.
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Celestialwolf » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:20 pm

Wingman--Thanks for getting some content up! I appreciate that we're getting the ball rolling!
Well, okay, that sounds like a plan. Where do I go to download the software? I'll try and figure out how to install it on my host and I'll PM you or something if I run into any snares. I'm sure I'll need your help in configuring everything! The subdomain (unless someone wants to throw down $10 for a domain? :wink:) is this:

http://thepack.rcromar.com/

As for the talented designers, I know at least one of them is takyoji (he really seems to know his stuff when it comes to web design!). I'd imagine he had a hand in getting this forum up?

As for the current wiki we have going, feel free to keep adding content; we can move everything over when the time comes.
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Vagrant » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:50 pm

First things first...

I really like what you did with that page, Wingman, it's a fantastic start, and you've covered all the bases with verve and finesse. There might be one or two niche areas that haven't been covered, but for a starter, you did a bloody fantastic job! I could easily classify my own Werewolves by those.

The only thing I could think to add is something about Werewolf society, whether the Werewolf is a loner, a pack, part of a sect, part of a sect that recognises other sects in the World (World of Darkness style), or a fully organised Werewolf culture.

I may add those to the wiki myself, but if I may burden you, could I ask you to flesh them out? You're a far more talented writer than I am.

Now then, moving right along...

The software that Wikipedia uses is MediaWiki. I've linked directly to the download page there, so you can have a nose about if you like. I've actually set up a MediaWiki in the past, it can be a bit of a pain in the rear, but for all the power it offers, it's well worth it.

If you find you need any help at all, please don't hesitate to ask me. This is a project I would love to involve myself in, and I'll help out in any way I can. So feel free to contact me with any questions, you can PM me, mail me, or if you like, you can add me to your IM contact list (I'm on a few, they're in my profile).

As for the subdomain, taki might want to set us up with something like http://wiki.thepack.network/, which could redirect there. But if we did want a domain, and there are no objections, I'd be more than happy to foot the bill to get us a good domain for the wiki.

Wrapping up, yep, takyoji is one designer, he really knows his stuff. And I'd also bring spongypants to your attention as well, he's been working on RedEye's site, so he may want to help out. Both of them are good at what they do. We should be wary about not making the wiki too image heavy though, to consider those who're on low bandwidth connections, so it'll really just be a matter of shifting the tables around to make it as visually appealing as possible.

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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Wingman » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:38 am

I'll see what I can whip up. This gives me the chance to include even more tropes, yay!
In the mean time, check out tvtropes.org.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... eDifferent
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by outwarddoodles » Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:27 pm

I love contributing to Wikis, so if you need writers for this project: Count me in! I also read in copious amounts, so I'll be here to edit/revise what others write.

Other than that, I'd like to add that we shouldn't limit ourselves to what "should" a werewolf be. Firstly, it's what 'could' a werewolf be. Otherwise, as far as I know, there exists no werewolf/shapeshifter wiki, so we should be able to extend our wiki to emcompass all shapeshifters, with information about movies, stories, legends (historical and contemporary), art, and websites all pertaining to werewolves. It'll hopefully be the first, largest wiki resource for werewolf fans.
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Vuldari » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:40 pm

Isn't a Wiki a page of (supposed, "As far as I know this is correct") "FACTS"?


... after all the grief I get about expressing my own (albeit often incomplete) knowledge of how werewolves WERE portrayed in the past, are commonly portrayed today, and how the average person perceives a Werewolf ...

The only "FACT" that anyone here will ever allow is that Werewolves are not real and no one can say what they are and what they are not.


I'm confused as to how this possibly could work.


Who get's to decide what is FACT among "The Pack", or for Werewolves in general? ... whose preferences, opinions and ideas get in, and whose are left out?


Wouldn't that just invalidate the opinions and preferences of anyone whose ideas differ from or are not included in the Wiki?



"Sorry ... you are wrong. The Wiki says that this OTHER idea is more popular. Try again."



A reference page that lists the outcomes of the most influential polls and discussions (with links to each of them) could be useful. A Wiki specifically about what the Werewolves in FREEBORN will be like could work too.

... but a Wiki (a page of 'FACTS') about what a Werewolf SHOULD be like just seems like a bad idea to me. I can already see how many could/would abuse it to put down less popular opinions (like my own), by referencing the Wiki as a reason whey THEY are right, and the other person is wrong. [Isn't that part of the reason why we have Tabooed letting people claim to be REAL Werewolves, even in jest?]

One can not define the "FACTS" about something that is mutually accepted as undefined.

If someone writes a book, or makes a movie, then there are "Facts" about how it does or does not work in that particular case, and one could make a Wiki about it. ... but how do you list the facts about something that is still in the process of being re-imagined in a hundred different ways?



An idea I liked more (though I don't know how hard or easy it would be to do) was when someone suggested that everyone has a space in their profile to explain their own personal opinion, ideas and hopes for the portrayal of the Werewolf in both Public and Private/Personal Media (as well as on a spiritual level, if applicable). ... that way, anyone who is curious about what YOU think could just click a link in your profile and find it right away. (Maybe even add a little button link to it at the bottom of everyones posts, along with "Profile", "PM", "EMail" for quick reference)



There are just so many different ideas and versions about peoples personal preferences about Werewolves that differ EVEN MORE than my own from the Popular Majority (Take all the fan-fictions rolling around here about Wolf-like creatures from other planets, some of which don't even shapeshift) it just seems like an impossible task that would only serve to raise those included within the popular majority (whose opinions would be the only ones listed in the Wiki) above everyone else. The only way to list "EVERYONES" opinions would be to just call the entire website the Pack Wiki ... because that is how many different opinions there are.



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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by outwarddoodles » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:52 pm

First, We easily have a large amount of "facts" to place in our wiki: historical information about legends, movies, books, contemporary urban legends, etc.

Secondly, I honestly don't see there being that big of a deal over whose opinion becomes represented. For example, say we had an article about shapeshifting, the sections of that article would go as follows:
  • Definition of Shapeshifting
  • Historical references to Shapeshifting (including here a breif summary about shapeshifting as represented in different cultures)
  • Common Media/Movie interpretation and style in regards to shapeshifting
  • Non-Shapeshifting werewolves
  • Shapeshifting triggers/full moon
  • Plausible theories regarding the possibility of shifting (including such sci-fi themes as viruses and the like.)
  • Other versions of Shapeshifting
And there's so much more that could be written in that article summary. In fact, if we have any issues with members feeling misrepresented, we can always add a 'alternative' section at the bottom of the page allowing any visitor to write a legible paragraph summary of their own opinion.

I doubt anyone here will try to portray their opinion as fact, but these opinions easily become information when you start an sentence off with "Some people have the veiwpoint that werewolves should......examples of this representation are.....this opinion was widely popular during....."
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Berserker » Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:01 pm

I agree with Vuldari somewhat. A wiki is supposed to be encyclopedic. CelestialWolf's idea is more like a blog. Not to mention the fact that there is no group consensus here. With dozens of people submitting different ideas for a single category, it would be very to difficult to organize in any form that resembles Wikipedia.

My idea is this. Instead of creating a wiki page for The Pack per se, why not create a page like a bestiary? Name it "The Ultimate Werewolf: A Tour," "The Modern Werewolf Compendium," or something similar. Then, have a template of questions that people can follow to describe their ideal werewolf. People could send in their submission, which could be reviewed for content/spelling/grammar, and then their particular werewolf could be uploaded as a page for the site. Pages could have searchable keywords, page tags, or categories, so someone looking for "friendly werewolf" or "full wolf only" etc. could filter matching entries.

So kinda like a wiki, and kinda like what outwarddoodles is suggesting, but more organized into fan-driven content and less fact-determined.
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Vagrant » Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:36 pm

You have a very interesting idea, Berserker, and one that I really do like, but I have a question: Whom would be in charge of actually deciding whether a question goes forward into the wiki or not? Should we have people declare their interest and then put it to a vote? That could be one way of going about it, and it might even be the best, that way the general audience of the Pack can pick the people they trust to do this.

Edited to add...

One thing I will nitpick, though. Wikipedia is rather encyclopedic by its very nature, but that's not the definition of a wiki. It's not supposed to be purely about facts, it's merely a collaborative source of information, thats what a wiki originally was. It was only after Wikipedia got popular that the two started getting confused.

This doesn't change my stance above, it's just a tiny nitpick, that's all. So I don't think there's anything wrong with there being fan-based content in there, just as you said, Berserker. I don't think we should worry about that.

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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Berserker » Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:17 pm

That might work.

I just think it would be cool to have a compendium of many different ideal werewolves, all submitted by individual people. A place where someone could say, my ideal werewolf is this, and provide a link to their entry in the bestiary... and visitors interested in reading about werewolf theories could search for a specific criteria. And maybe after enough submissions were on the site, the site could pull statistics like, "out of 150 ideal werewolves, 72% prefer digitigrade feet over plantigrade." Etc. It would allow us to actually find out what the "general consensus" really is.
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Vagrant » Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:24 pm

The more you describe this, the more I like it. Well, you've got my backing, because I think that could really work. Plus, it would bring an individual edge to the wiki, it would show the diversity of the Pack and the different kinds of people we have here.

There might be room for the pages we already have thohugh, like Wingman's tropes (I really like those). It could be credited to him and pointed out on the page that it's just a general basis of ideas people can pull upon when explaining their Werewolf. If any new tropes need to be added, they could submit them to Wingman for review, in a similar manner.

In fact, having sections like that, with an overall reviewer heading it up and each individual part credited to the right person would be brilliant. Adding to the second paragraph, a person could submit a trope to Wingman, he could edit it, and then it could be added with a note saying which person the trope came from.

In fact, this could be an underlying method of organisation for the whole site, attributing sections to different reviewers and giving everyone control without going mad.

So on Wingman's page, we could have, for instance... Wingman's tropes, Vagrant's tropes, and just add to that from there, with any that anyone happens to submit, split off into sections.

I'm not sure whether this is ideal though, or whehter it goes against your idea, but it was just something that occurred to me when I was reading, and even as I was writing this reply, and it just sort of organically branched out.

But yes, even if we just keep to your original idea, I do really like it, and I think it's a good one that could make the wiki something really special.

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Post by Midnight » Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:42 pm

.
Last edited by Midnight on Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Berserker » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:01 pm

I'm not sure how Vuldari was even remotely suggesting that The Pack "wiki" have only information that he approves of...
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Vagrant » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:12 pm

I think it was because Vuldari directly implied that "populist" Werewolf ideas would exist to--in some way--be an affront to his own ideas, and that he didn't like the idea of a wiki because of that, because allowing people to share their own ideas could be abused.

I don't think that would be the case with a wiki at all, and besides, if we had good editors then that kind of nonsense simply wouldn't be allowed. We can't ignore the potential of fan-content simply because someone is worried that one idea might show another idea in a bad light.

(Oh and I don't see why Vuldari's ideas are unpopular either, or why he even thinks they are. Vuldari's ideas are popular with me, they're not my ideal but I still like them. A Werewolf is a Werewolf, after all.)

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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by outwarddoodles » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:42 pm

From my experience, Wiki's, particularly small ones like this would be, work remarkibly smooth and issues are worked out in the same manner as they are in forums -- everyone discusses it and works it out. Does everyone get what they want? No, compromise happens, so everyone gets as much of they want as they can while ensuring that everyone else it happy too.

I like Berserker's idea a lot, except that it sounds remarkibly similar to the purpose of a forum (save for the "search feature.") As I see it, when people look up information about werewolves, they're going to look for a specific article of information -- such as silver, shifting, fullmoon, etc etc. The wiki format should center around this style of information gathering.

An idea: If we used Berserker's idea for sharing personal opinions, would there be a way for someone to obtain entries based on one subject instead of having to search through the entirety of the essays? (Example, reading entries only about the 'cause' of lycanthropy, versus the entire submission.)
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Wingman » Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:52 pm

I'm almost entirely certain I've seen such a feature on some wikis, and those that don't usually provide a "Jump To" index at the top or in a sidebar, like wikipedia does. Though, since this entire wiki is about a single thing, as opposed to wikipedia which contains countless different topics and subjects, we can have all the pages we want about the exact same thing.

And really, nothing's preventing us from having a main "Causes of Lycanthropy" page, and then multiple sections therein.

Since this is the Pack's Wiki, it seems fairly logical for submissions to be submitted here, which allows everyone to see them.


Or, with wikidot.com wikis you get the option to start your own forum attached to your wiki, with the possibility of page-by-page discussions and all sorts of similar things. For example, this is the forum attached to my wiki http://the-highway.wikidot.com/forum:start and it took all of maybe thirty seconds to set up once I figured out what buttons to press.

I think a few of you are forgetting the fundamental principles of a public wiki. Anyone with an account, or possibly even a guest if the settings allow it, can edit and contribute to a page. Each page is allowed more than one section, and each section can have a subsection so there is nothing preventing us from having:

Types of Werewolves
---Jim's werewolves
---Bob's werewolves
-----Sam's werewolves (Which is based off of Bob's werewolves)
---Fred's werewolves

All it would take is a couple minutes of organizing to divide them along clear lines, such as Magical/Scientific to allow for easier searches.

Really, it's the same as someone trying to control a bulletin board. Sure, someone can run up and tear down whatever you put up, and then you or someone else can put it back up and the idiot can be banned since we haven't developed technology to reach through his screen and beat him to death with his keyboard.

Yay for tropes.


Edit: If someone has the time and inclination, they could search through the forum archives and condense already-discussed topics into pages or sections for the wiki.

PS. http://thepack.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Index
Just found the forum section of the wiki. Also, each page has it's own discussion section. Which gives people around half a dozen ways "Email, this forum, that forum, discussion page, carrier pigeon, message in a bottle) to submit ideas or talk about them.

So, why do I not see any activity on the wiki? This is a group project after all.

PPS. I've been browsing the How could you tell someone is a werewolf thread and compiling a new page for the wiki relating to identifying a werewolf in human form. Feel free to edit it.
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Celestialwolf » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:59 am

Wow, I don't have the time right now to read everything that has just been said (I will read it all tomorrow), but I am getting the impression that people are thinking "who's to say what's fact or not?" and that another way to do this would be to just submit articles to someone to then get them organized.

So let me just explain what I'm visualizing with this whole wiki thing. I see a wiki as a collaborative database of articles where anyone can edit the information. The idea isn't that "this is the end all authority in the matter," but rather the gist of what we've all been talking about for the past few years. The ideal situation is that every statement is backed up with a footnote reference to the topic where it was discussed. In areas of disagreement the 2 or 3 main sides can be presented. This doesn't need to go through anybody in particular; just edit what isn't "true" according to what's in the topics; add what you can as you notice it.
Yeah, that's kind of what we should be after. I agree.
I agree with this, too. We have to limit it somewhat, though. I mean, we should try to keep it to what's actually been discussed and narrowed down, avoiding clutter. This isn't necessarily a werewolf encyclopedia (though it could work out to be that? Let's get everyone working on it and see what it becomes!)

I edited my first comment in the topic to include the new URL of the wiki. Vagrant was so kind as to help me get the thing installed on my host this afternoon (I appreciate it!) Any suggestions and helps are welcome.

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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Wingman » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:16 am

So, we're not using this one anymore?
http://thepack.wikia.com/wiki/The_Pack_Werewolf_Guide
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Vagrant » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:03 am

I understand the confusion, Wingman, but this is probably for the best.

We're going to be copying all of the content over to our wiki, and you can do that with what you added as well if you like, just transcribe it across.

This is so that the wiki and all of its content remains owned by the Pack, and no one else. If we ever need access to the database, Celestial can snag it for us, and if we ever need to make modifications, it's in our power to do that. This is really our wiki now, and there are no longer any restrictions as to what we can and can't do with it.

Actually getting the MediaWiki up on Celestial's server was a collaborative effort of equal parts, involving Celestial, myself, and Lupin. It was wonderful, we all worked together to get it ship shape, and we did get some weird problems along the way... but it did not deter us! And Celestial's written a real nice intro page for the new wiki, too.

As for cross-referencing as outward suggested, there are mods out there, now that the wiki is ours, we could talk about some of these mods and installing them to allow for better categorisation.

Edited to add...

Celestial, I love what you did with the logo. I didn't see that before I went to sleep, but it really works.

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Gevaudan
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Re: The Pack Wiki

Post by Gevaudan » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:52 pm

I registered, and it looks pretty good. I tried to help with the referencing problem, but it kept coming out all wonky (it should have worked). I made a temporary solution: show the references as "external links" until we can get a mod that lets us make references, citations, and footnotes.

:D I love this idea.
And everything under the sun is in tune, but the sun is eclipsed by the moon.

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