Anatomy nitpicking: Collarbones?

White Paw · Post by **White Paw** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:09 am

WTF

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:22 am

That's really really cool looking.

Miragh · Post by **Miragh** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:58 am

the hell...

funny thing is, if you would draw shoulders that way, everybody would scream and bitchin' about correct anatomy.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:28 pm

Miragh wrote:the hell...

funny thing is, if you would draw shoulders that way, everybody would scream and bitchin' about correct anatomy.

Well, they would be right. Normal human anatomy doesn't lack a collarbone. So you'd have to state this guy has that genetic anomaly.

Whoa....that looks like my mate, where did you find that pic? He is in medical journals for it.
^_^

http://www.gfmer.ch/genetic_diseases_v2 ... hp?cat3=66

Wiki's article on Cleidocranial dyplasia links directly to the image, however.

In English "Gestalt" generally refers to some kind of combination. The reason we use it here in the way we do is because, early on, we had a lot of discussions about what term we should use for the transitional form in a werewolf that is approximately halfway between human and wolf. We didn't want to use any words that were specific to a particular fictional world (such as "Werewolf: The Apocalypse") and we ended up agreeing on "gestalt" or "gestalt form" as the word we would use.

That, and it sounds cool.

PariahPoet · Post by **PariahPoet** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:35 pm

Ok, I just asked him, and he said he's never had a moustache without a beard. I've only seen him without any facial hair once.
That's pretty crazy. We've been dating for almost 4 years now and I would have sworn that was him!

Miragh · Post by **Miragh** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:13 am

Aki wrote: Well, they would be right. Normal human anatomy doesn't lack a collarbone. So you'd have to state this guy has that genetic anomaly.

Fair enough

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:32 pm

I think it depends on the werewolf.

Muscular more ape like, or sleeker more speed designed.

Or cut the difference and have it lumber like a dinosaur. Still biped but front arms are not on the ground.

in which case the torso may be sleeker than most mammals, maybe go with a wishbone design. Which would give them very strong arm thrusts and be able to keep a mostly biped like apperance when they stand bolt up-right.

Or somewhere between the two. A flexible structure that speads out for upright stances and locks in place for this stance, but can unlock and form a wishbone like shape for hunching over or running on all fours.

Morkulv · Post by **Morkulv** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:40 pm

HELLHOUND wrote:Welcome aboard Focrow.

It depends on how you like your werewolves really.
Some people like the WOLFMAN from Monster Squad or the Old B&W movies styled.
Some like the Howling Style.
Some like American Werewolf in London/Paris style.
Some like Buffy's Oz style.
Some like Underworld's Lycans style.

See where i'm going. Its just a matter of taste. Myself i like most of them at the same time, because i see them different breeds of a basic creature type.

Personally I'm not much of a fan of the 'wolfman aka hairy man'-design, but I also don't like the popular furry's and anthro's you see on the internet. Or at least, I don't like 'em as a werewolf. But I think there must be a way to combine both wolvisch genetics and human, without leaning too much into one of those directions.

Kzinistzerg · Post by **Kzinistzerg** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:15 pm

I think it depends. Monkeys would have it I presume, because they use their upper body a lot and so extra support is great. for twisting in midair the forearm and fingers allow felxibility and the feet can be used as guidance as well.

On werewolves in gestalt form, i'd expect any creature that walks uprigth that uses it's arms like us would have a collarbone. Thus gestalt forms ought to have one. Wolf-forms shuld not. It ought to gradually dissapear as the werewolf gets closer to full-wolf form.

Focrow · Post by **Focrow** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:55 pm

Okay, my try again:
As far as I got it, we pretty much agree, that a halfwolf (No, I won't use the word "Gestalt"

) is something between a human and a wolf. Okay, it is usually taller than a human, while it should be smaller, but that would ruin the whole horror-creature-thing *gg*
But since it goes that far into the wolf-direction, that it even has the head of a wolf and nothing blended between wolf and human -possibly becaus it would look awful-, then why should nearly everything else remain almost human? It's like selective transformation: 100% for the head, 2% for the torso, arms and legs (the fur), 50% for hands and feet. And lots of steroids for the muscles.

On a sidenote, I don't think, the halfwolf form is based on trial and error (no collarbone = no impact transmission. next time enable collarbone.), but on the degree of the transformation.
Since the collarbone is spongy on the inside (see Wikipedia quote below), maybe it becomes flexible enough to allow natural quadruped moving, yet strong enough to still have some of the functions the human collarbone has.

vrikasatma · Post by **vrikasatma** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:13 pm

Personally I like the "wishbone-in-half-form" idea. But the learning curve is something to think about as well.

This is really turning into a fun discussion!

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:01 am

A spongy collarbone may allow for flexibility but would also limit the strain it can take in the long run. Like a cartlidge collarbone or something.

Now the wishbone idea with a locking in the center could allow in biped stance for it to lock in place and allow for strength and when it goes quadraped unhinge and relock in the new stance to allow for speed and versitility, and would add extra strength to the quadraped stance. In other words this unhindging wishbone/collarbone would allow a werewolf to go from biped to quadraped with out the need for additional transformations.

Focrow · Post by **Focrow** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:23 am

As much as I like the idea -and I really like it very much-, I don't know, how a human's collarbone can become a wishbone during the transformation to a wolf. Becaus as far as I know (and that's not very much, when it comes to biology), only birds have a wishbone.

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:17 pm

Focrow wrote:As much as I like the idea -and I really like it very much-, I don't know, how a human's collarbone can become a wishbone during the transformation to a wolf. Becaus as far as I know (and that's not very much, when it comes to biology), only birds have a wishbone.

the wish bone made its first apperance in the strongest biped predators to ever live. The Carnisaurs like the Raptors (Dromiosaurs) and the large ones like T-Rex and family.

The DNA is there for all sorts of shapes and sizes for just about anything.

As for a werewolf, feel your collarbone, feel the middle of it where it connects centrally with the rib-cage. Now imagine that this part has a hinge that allows it to lock in its normal shape and unhindge and relock in a more "wishbone" like shape to allow for a better use of the arms during a hunched over or quadraped stance.

Basically the original purpose of the wishbone was not to aid in flight by adding strength to flight muscles, but rather to give a hunched over biped strength to its arms to grasp and kill its prey. Its the ultimate biped skeletal killing design.

vrikasatma · Post by **vrikasatma** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:21 pm

We've arrived at a concensus, then? Gestalt werewolves have a wishbone instead of standard fixed human clavicles. I can visualize it and it looks good.

Good question! Great discussion!

Focrow · Post by **Focrow** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:14 am

Sorry for being an a**, but those dinosaurs were the ancestors of the birds, not the mammals. That's why I'm still not happy with it.

Set · Post by **Set** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:18 pm

vrikasatma wrote:I can visualize it and it looks good.

Really? Because I can't.

"Wishbone" and "werewolf" don't seem compatible to me. I agree with Focrow that it's a bit weird to think of something so distinctly avian being a feature of a mammal.

I honestly can't picture a wishbone in a werewolf that just plain doesn't look strange, anyhow.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:25 pm

Aki wrote:
PariahPoet wrote:It's called cleidocranial dysplaysia.
I guess I should have said it doesn't cause major problems. But the worst thing that's caused my the lack of collarbone is that his shoulders do slip out of place fairly easily, but that's because the muscles and connective tissues that keep them in place are weak. The physiatrist told him that with physical therapy that could be fixed.
Ah.

Well it seems you can do something NIFTY with it :

Sadly the other possible ways it can manifest aren't as amusing as being able to do that.

Yup...people can do strange things with thier body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADd7BrrEPOg

But I don't think the video above has anything to do with the collarbone. Or does it?

Anook · Post by **Anook** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:44 pm

Focrow wrote:From Wikipedia:

The clavicle serves several functions:

* It serves as a rigid support from which the scapula and free limb are suspended. This arrangement keeps the upper limb away from the thorax so that the arm has maximum range of movement.
* Covers the cervicoaxillary canal (passageway between the neck and arm), through which several important structures pass.
* Transmits impacts from the upper limb to the axial skeleton.

Even though it is classified as a long bone, the clavicle has no medullary (bone marrow) cavity like other long bones. It is made up of spongy (cancellous) bone with a shell of compact bone. The clavicle bone is the only bone that does not have marrow. It is a dermal bone derived from elements originally attached to the skull.

Hellhound, good call.

Eh...I wouldn't trust Wikipedia as your main resource to gather info from. Anyone can put something on there and it doesn't even have to be true.
If you want info on human anatomy then just google it and do the same thing with animal anatomy(well, I mean canine or feline anatomy)

There are websites that will give you tons of info on the Clavicle bone, the scapula(Shoulder blade in canines and felines), the femur(Thigh bone), and the three different kinds of bone in a dog and cats back.

All I'm saying is Wikipedia isn't the best resource to go to. Yes, there are people that will put true and correct facts on there but, there are others that don't.
Many teachers at my school strongly suggest that we stay away from there, because of that particular reason.

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:00 pm

Anook wrote: Eh...I wouldn't trust Wikipedia as your main resource to gather info from. Anyone can put something on there and it doesn't even have to be true.

Reword time:

"Eh...I wouldn't trust The Internet as your main resource to gather info from. Anyone can put something on there and it doesn't even have to be true."

However:

The exercise revealed numerous errors in both encyclopaedias, but among 42 entries tested, the difference in accuracy was not particularly great: the average science entry in Wikipedia contained around four inaccuracies; Britannica, about three.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 8900a.html

Anook · Post by **Anook** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:34 pm

Well, I didn't know that. I was just misinformed by teachers.

Oh well.

MattSullivan · Post by **MattSullivan** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:28 pm

that's why animation is cool. you can get away with squashing and stretching the anatomy

Focrow · Post by **Focrow** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:31 pm

Except there's an x-ray view of a werewolf

Besides: logical discussions about fantasy creatures are fun *g*

vrikasatma · Post by **vrikasatma** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:13 pm

Set wrote:
vrikasatma wrote:I can visualize it and it looks good.
Really? Because I can't.
"Wishbone" and "werewolf" don't seem compatible to me. I agree with Focrow that it's a bit weird to think of something so distinctly avian being a feature of a mammal.
I honestly can't picture a wishbone in a werewolf that just plain doesn't look strange, anyhow.

Easy there, Scout, it was an honest question. Challenge unnecessary.

Regarding the point of wishbones in a mammalian morphology. We agree that Gestalt form werewolves are bipedal digitigrades, yes? Okay. What else is digitigrade and bipedal? Ostriches, which are also considered hooved. Birds with hooves? How weird is that?

If I can be forgiven applying science to fantasy...
Nature doesn't recognize a genera line for forms that work, as adaptations. We have some mammals that lay eggs. We have some types of birds that have structures that look a lot like fur and even whiskers: I'm talking about filoplumes, those spikey feather-structures immediately before the beaks of ravens. You go back far enough and you'll find mammal-like reptilians: dimetrodon comes to mind. Some members of the dromeiosaur line had fur, feathers, *and* wishbones.

Now I'm not trying to make an argument that werewolves evolved from dromeiosaurids. I'm not arguing that werewolves evolved at all. They're generally assumed to be phenomenological entities, correct? "It's magic." Okay, let's say that the "magic" of lycanthropy selects from a slushpile of anatomical structures that evolved over the fossil record through natural selection, when rebuilding the werewolf body in the midst of transformation.

Basically what I'm trying to say here is, if you can believe in werewolves with enhanced senses and physical capabilities surpassing that of its constituent species — a werewolf being more than the sum of its parts — what's the harm of stretching things a bit and imagining the fully-humano-simian clavicle shifting into a structure that resembles a wishbone, if said structure allows a greater surface to attach pectoral, deltoid and scapular muscles to attach to and fits the mental image of a deep-and-narrow (as opposed to broad-and-shallow) thoracic cavity? We're not talking winged werewolves here; but the presence of a birdlike structure like the wishbone — keep in mind the fact that hairlike structures can be found on birds — makes physiological sense. Nature as represented by the naturally-selected fossil record concurs.

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:06 pm

Exactly, in fact most might not even recognize it as a bird feature when looking at the werewolf. Just a different kind of shape. After all its a skeletal structure.

When I think of werewolf I think of a chimera type of being, something that is made to be the ultimate predator, incorporating the best features to fit with its envrionment.
Wolf like externally, but not necisarily wolf like internally.

After all nature likes to re-use body shapes and designs that work.

For instance the Dolphin shares the same basic shape as the Icthyosaur.
and once upon a time there was a meat eating member of the goat family that looked like a wolf with hooves. Maybe a werewolf is "wolf like" and the wolf is the only animal our ancestors could think to associate it with so called it a "werewolf" but could in fact be completly unrelated to the wolf. Or if made through magic the magic choose to use the ultimate predatory designs to fit the unique abilities of the werewolf.