How painful should the shift be? And...

[White Paw]

Since others seem to be repeating themselves, I feel compelled to as well...

It is my opinion that, due to extremes at which the body must be manipulated in order to transform, significant pain is an unavoidable consequence, even when factoring in endorphines and the like.

However, I think it is important not to overlook that the presence of significant pain during any kind of intense physical activity does not automatically make said action "Unbearable".

I like to use intense physical workouts, and high-impact sports as an example. In time, your muscles and joints begin to ache and burn painfully...and yet, one will quite willingly keep going, in spite of the pain, until they can go no further, and later on (even whilst tending to their injuries), describe the experience as a predominantly positive one.

Like eating really spicy food...the pain itself is not in any way a source of any pleasure...but you willingly endure it again and again in order to re-sample the addictive, intense flavor that comes along with it.


In summary: I think it is only logical that it would be painful every single time. But...that does not mean that I don't think if one learned to accept the change, that they would be able to learn to greatly appreciate the experience of transforming...in spite of the pain.

very much agree

[redwolfmoon]

First so many shifts should suck! Your body has never done it before, the shift takes a while. Burning hot pain as cells move and change in perpose, bones break, and joints pop in and out of socket. Only till fur grows does the wave of cool relief coat your body and the night begins.
However, as time goes on, your body learns that it is going to be changing for a long time and gets 'better' at it. It doesn't take so long to change, it happens a bit faster and the pain reduces. Football players who've broken bones admit that it always hurts, but the first time was the worst, so is a shift. It always hurts and the fur is always cooling pleasure, but the quicker the shift then the less pain you feel.

[Kanibal]

Personally, I think the first changes would be painful becoming less so the more it happens. An exeption to this would be if you fought the change, that would make it even more painful.

I always imagend that they would get less painful becsue as you get more used to them all you notice is the feeling of power that you would also get from the transformation, and the more often it happens the more you get the feeling of power and the less you notice the pain.

[Midnight]

OK, this is probably going to be a rather unpopular set of opinions but it's the way I see things...

First of all you need to take into account what sort of movie is being made here. It looks from the teaser/trailer that it's very much going to be a character drama sort of movie as opposed to the typical Cursed Monster Movie. I'm all for doing a werewolf movie a new way (that's part of why I've been so looking forward to the film!) and reckon a character drama sort of movie would absolutely rock.

Another thing to take into account would be the mechanism of the transformation. If it was all going to be done strictly within limits of current science, biology and physics... well, the first transformation would kill anyone unless it took longer than the movie itself. So it wouldn't really make that good a story. Bone, muscle tissue, skin and hair simply doesn't grow that quickly... bones would break, muscle would tear, your main character would be left a lump of moaning goo on the floor and that's the movie finished. Honestly, that's not what I want to see. So basically the actual science of things would be better brushed aside than investigated too thoroughly.

But this type of transformation is more something you'd see in Ye Olde Cursed Monster Movie. I'd honestly prefer it if the mechanics of the transformation were left at least reasonably vague... the less science is used to try to explain it, the less a picky person such as myself would be tempted to pick holes in the science. In a character drama I'd want to see more attention paid to the mental effects of becoming a werewolf. That doesn't mean that shifting shouldn't be a traumatic experience... after all, particularly if someone isn't expecting to change, it's going to be one hell of a shock... and I do agree that if the body needs to change, and if at such a time someone fights the change, then it would be painful... as if the body was caught stuck bent the wrong way and had to re-straighten itself.

[Scott Gardener]

If you're not doing a hard-core science angle and you're not specifically interested in horror, then I agree, actually--the first few shifts don't have to be exquisitely painful. It might even help break up a cliche around here by having a first shift that's deeply and profoundly metaphysical bliss without any pain at all. Granted, it wouldn't work in my particular storyline, because I'm a hard science type--conserved mass and all that. But, even a "soft magic" setting in which rules of science are fudged even a little bit (OK, a little bit more, since werewolves by definition are fudging at least a little bit), one doesn't have to fire off pain receptors to shift form.

I know this contradicts a huge number of people here, including myself. But, there you have it. No pain, gain.

[Fullmoonstar]

First so many shifts should suck! Your body has never done it before, the shift takes a while. Burning hot pain as cells move and change in perpose, bones break, and joints pop in and out of socket. Only till fur grows does the wave of cool relief coat your body and the night begins.
However, as time goes on, your body learns that it is going to be changing for a long time and gets 'better' at it. It doesn't take so long to change, it happens a bit faster and the pain reduces. Football players who've broken bones admit that it always hurts, but the first time was the worst, so is a shift. It always hurts and the fur is always cooling pleasure, but the quicker the shift then the less pain you feel.

that is exactly what i think the first shift is the hell if you ask me^^

[Teh_DarkJokerWolf]

First so many shifts should suck! Your body has never done it before, the shift takes a while. Burning hot pain as cells move and change in perpose, bones break, and joints pop in and out of socket. Only till fur grows does the wave of cool relief coat your body and the night begins.
However, as time goes on, your body learns that it is going to be changing for a long time and gets 'better' at it. It doesn't take so long to change, it happens a bit faster and the pain reduces. Football players who've broken bones admit that it always hurts, but the first time was the worst, so is a shift. It always hurts and the fur is always cooling pleasure, but the quicker the shift then the less pain you feel.

that is exactly what i think the first shift is the hell if you ask me^^

Are you saying your a werewolf? Just wondering from that response..

Imho a werewolf Transformation would always hurt but you get used to it over time an it becomes some this feeds the pleasure of shifting to make one feel powerful as the body changes it's form. Painful Pleasure..yes..So i picked "It should feel good after you get used to it"

[Vuldari]

that is exactly what i think the first shift is the hell if you ask me^^

Are you saying your a werewolf? Just wondering from that response...

Relax... I'm pretty sure Fullmoonstar didn't mean it like that.

We have all become a little too uptight about others pretending to be a Werewolf, and I admit, that is mostly My Fault.

I think all of us, especially me, need to just relax and let it go. *Takes a deep breath and sighs*


Anyway...I've already shared my opinion in this thread so I will resist my nature and not repeat myself again...


*Puts sock in own mouth to stop self from repeating previous statements and opinions again*


"...Mmmmphh...mmmnghh...grmgmph..."

[Teh_DarkJokerWolf]

that is exactly what i think the first shift is the hell if you ask me^^

Are you saying your a werewolf? Just wondering from that response...

Relax... I'm pretty sure Fullmoonstar didn't mean it like that.

We have all become a little too uptight about others pretending to be a Werewolf, and I admit, that is mostly My Fault.

I think all of us, especially me, need to just relax and let it go. *Takes a deep breath and sighs*


Anyway...I've already shared my opinion in this thread so I will resist my nature and not repeat myself again...


*Puts sock in own mouth to stop self from repeating previous statements and opinions again*


"...Mmmmphh...mmmnghh...grmgmph..."

Vuldari...please don't tell me what to do..It's annoying really..I am just as open to ask questions or make statements as you or anyone else..I like to believe one who says they are really is..I am thinking there is a werewolf or maybe a few lurking here on this forum or maybe just lurking period but haven't joined, but keeping their muzzles shut for good reason..I just like to wonder at the idea of that an I can

[Fullmoonstar]

[Therian]

hmm have any of you see Underworld?

I think the shifts would be moore kinda like that. Painful first then after a few shifts you and your body get use to it then it
probably wouldn't hurt much anymore. ?

[RedEye]

Odd, but no matter how painful the shift is, the reversion is apparently painless. Why? How many movies have we all seen where the Shift is like having twins: simultaneously...but then we go to the next shot of someone waking up in bed completely reverted, except for the incriminating whatever-it-is beside them.
This is stock stuff. Why wouldn't the reversion hurt just as much?
There is a potential modifier here: and that is the amount of time for the shift/reversion to occur. The longer it takes, the less pain, for the most part.
As the shifts repeat, it makes sense that there would be a lessening of discomfort, as the body becomes used to the process, and as the mind accepts the pain as "normal".
It would always hurt.
Now, just for fun, let's say that the longer the person remains in the Wulfen state, the more pain there will be- as the hinge-sutures start setting up. Perhaps, after a year as Wulfen, the reversion is no longer possible as the sutures have hardened into permanence?

[LOBO64]

I can see the first time a person becomes a Werewolf as being both a frightening and painful experience. The first flush of "The Change" I would liken to a lightness of being coupled with what could be compared to a bout of acute indigestion and a throbbing headache which eventually fade away. So, there would be some discomfort the first time round.

Try to imagine for yourself what it would be like to wake up in a sweat on a moonlit night, feeling slightly feverish as your body begins to shift and change into that of a Wolf. (I'm not talking hybrid here -- but a full-fledged, powerful quadriped wolf.) WHAT WOULD YOU DO? I think if you have any sense, you'd strip off your clothes as soon as you could! -- that is, if you don't sleep in the buff.

The growth of body hairs, which thicken into fur. The transformation of hands and feet into fore- and hindpaws, respectively. The lengthening of the ears into fine, canine ones. The pressure on the spine as the skeletal structure is changed, along with the development and growth of a tail just above the derriere. (For men, there is also the change in penis shape as a furry sheath is formed in his pubic area --- while for women, the growth of additional teats along with the change of the 2 original breasts into teats themselves.) And the shifting of the face, as nose and mouth (with sharp, steely fangs already formed) form a muzzle.


I also think that for those people who love being a Werewolf, the process of transformation would be orgasmic for them as time went on. But for the ones who are uncomfortable with being Werewolves, The Change would be an unwelcome intrusion into their lives, always painful, because they would be most resistent to becoming wolves.



I'd be very interested to know what other members think about this.
(I confess I have often fantasized over the years about changing into a Wolf, imagining my body transforming into that of a powerful, furry, 4-legged beast.)



LOBO64

[Vuldari]

I'd be very interested to know what other members think about this.
(I confess I have often fantasized over the years about changing into a Wolf, imagining my body transforming into that of a powerful, furry, 4-legged beast.)

I'm also quite fascinated with the idea of transforming into a shape that is entirely not-human, (some say it should always have recognizable Human features in it, but I think that is completely missing the point in many cases).

However, I've said it before and I'll say it again...I absolutely loathe to comparison of a Werewolf Transformation to some kind of sexual, "orgasmic" experience. Don't corrupt the mysticism and cool factor of Werewolves by turning them into some perverted fetish.

If that idea became widely popular outside of underground online Yiff circles, I would have to be ashamed to ever admit in public to being interested in Werewolves ever again.

...just like what has happened with Furries.

[RedEye]

Since both Pain and Pleasure are related limbic-system events, who knows? Having a set of jollies as you transform could be just your way of dealing with a set of sensory stimuli.
The Shift is going to always have some form of pain associated with it; since your very DNA is being re-written (while you wait, yet!) and the "Template" is being radically changed by some virus-like entity or some mystical force. How it's dealt with is a matter of tagging: if a series of sensations give rise to a desirable result, they will have a pleasure tag associated with them. If the result is not-desired/feared, then there will be a discomfort tag associated with it... That's how our minds work. How our minds work determines whether we will feel pain or pleasure from a stimulus.
Yet, I side with Vuldari. There is a certain grey area where the public at large tends to mistakenly attribute Sexuality to something that is not sexual in nature, simply because they lack a better term for the sensation.
We really don't want to go there too much, because then it becomes sensationalized- like the Furry Yiff games that were played at several Cons and got reported on... it hurts the entire thing, and generates a false image that must be defended by anyone involved in the genre. Which then hurts involvement, which hurts the Genre itself.
Do Werewolves have sex? Where do all the little were's come from? The population couldn't be supported by bite alone (or the other versions of the bite). That, however, is between the Were's involved; not the general public...any more than Human sex is anybody's business...
I'd suggest that where one walks the narrow line, that one walks away from the Sensational side, and focus instead on the Reasonable side. That will better serve the genere' as a whole.
Still, the Shift IS an act of Creation.... not Pro-creation...

[Midnight]

Hmmm... thinking about this a bit more (and noticing that I didn't actually get around to making one of my main points in my last post... I have a bad habit of getting side tracked and forgetting what I was going to say)...

... since, as I understand it now, it's been established that in this context all shifting is going to be more or less painful, I don't think it would be at all appropriate to think of it as a sexual or orgasmic metaphor. I don't think associating sex with pain is a good thing or something I'd want to see explored in a character drama.

One possible comparison that comes to mind, though, is this: a few years back a couple of friends of mine got into amateur bodybuilding. (One of them actually got quite good at it but never did anything competitive). They were all going on about how the aches and pains after a massive workout were worth it... "feel the burn", "no pain, no gain" and all that sort of stuff.

So, basically, if a character sees the pain of shifting as "worth it" as something necessary to become a gestalt or a wolf - and they see what they'll become as something noble and powerful - then, yes, I'd find that believable.

[Vuldari]

Hmmm... thinking about this a bit more (and noticing that I didn't actually get around to making one of my main points in my last post... I have a bad habit of getting side tracked and forgetting what I was going to say)...

... since, as I understand it now, it's been established that in this context all shifting is going to be more or less painful, I don't think it would be at all appropriate to think of it as a sexual or orgasmic metaphor. I don't think associating sex with pain is a good thing or something I'd want to see explored in a character drama.

One possible comparison that comes to mind, though, is this: a few years back a couple of friends of mine got into amateur bodybuilding. (One of them actually got quite good at it but never did anything competitive). They were all going on about how the aches and pains after a massive workout were worth it... "feel the burn", "no pain, no gain" and all that sort of stuff.

So, basically, if a character sees the pain of shifting as "worth it" as something necessary to become a gestalt or a wolf - and they see what they'll become as something noble and powerful - then, yes, I'd find that believable.

It seems that we think alike in that respect.

[Midnight]

gah... I know I should have read the whole topic before singing out...

thumps his noob forehead on computer desk

[Vuldari]

gah... I know I should have read the whole topic before singing out...

thumps his noob forehead on computer desk

No need to stay silent, just because someone else already said something similar.

In many cases, a thread will only have two kinds of responses...Yes and No...but you don't stop posting once one person has shared their opinion in each category. If you have something to say...say it. As long as it's in the right thread, it's all good.

[STARWOLF_THE_MYSTIC]

It'll always have the same amount of pain, just that it is tolerated more and more over the years

[Therian]

STARWOLF_THE_MYSTIC wrote:
It'll always have the same amount of pain, just that it is tolerated more and more over the years

I agree with that, and then soon becomes less painless........

[Herpscott]

I am not sure I understand why it is so loathed that a transformation could be orgasmic. After all, orgasmic is an adjective (in this context anyway), relating to extreme or intense pleasure. Just because something is pleasurable, does not make it a sexual act.

I like the idea of a transformation to be pleasurable similar to a long awaited purchase that you've saved up for. Or the excitement of going on a first date with someone you find really attractive. Just because it is described as orgasmic, does not necessarily mean that you will ejaculate or have an orgasm (noun).

This intense pleasure from a transformation can be a usefull character builder, in that if one derives great pleasure from the act and then the crazy killing that can (and usually does) follow, then that character has one more avenue for becoming an antagonist or just a plain old narcisistwith which the audience can then love or hate depending on how you relate. An example comes to mind: the character of Dr. House on House. That guy is a dickhead! But, many people really like him on the show. He is entertaining to watch. Gil Grissom from CSI is also one. He is a misanthrope yet really likeable. OF course, this character could also be the one you absolutely love to hate. A good villain is one that is so good that at the end you are glad that the hero gets to kill them, yet throughout the movie or show, you begin to like the character on screen because they are entertaining. For example, Alan Rickman in Die Hard, Jermey Irons in Die Hard 3, Sir Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter, Gene Hackman as Lex Luthor, Kevin Spacey as Lex Luthor (apparently he did a great job), Kevin Spacey as John Doe in Se7en. There a many in the list!

Just another 2 cents...

[Matt]

I have always felt that there needs to be a great deal of pain for at least the first several transformations. Past that I think it is a question of resistance. To those who accept the change and its subsequent abilities and powers, I think it would be a welcome escape from their human form, which comparatively would probably seem very confining. Its masochistic in a way, there is still significant pain, but it is a means to a wanted end, so they want it and show enjoyment in it. To those who consider this change a curse, it should always be painful.

[RedEye]

Let's take the concept of Shifting as a meatphor for any sort of extreme physical activity.
In that sense, I still remember my first forty kilometer march, with eighty pounds of kit and my M-14 as well ( and the ammo for it). I hurt like there was no tomorrow! My hair hurt! I hoped I'd just die right then and there.
Then, many weeks later, I and the platoon of which I was a member were involved with war games as a part of the final section of basic training.
After a fifty kilometer march, setting up a bivouac, and getting ready for maneuvers the next day; I couldn't sleep; not for the pain, but for the excitement! I hurt, yes; and I was tired--but it wasn't like the first march in the discomfort area, not at all!
Same thing in working out--a strenuous one will have you hurting a lot at first; but later you look for "the burn" and welcome it as proof you are accomplishing something desirable.
I suspect that Shifting is much like that- the actual pain changes as you are accustomed to it; and the percieved pain is now desired, as part of your accomplishing a change from Smooth Human to WolfKindred as a Werewolf...unless you had other plans for the evening. Oops!
So, it changes, but it doesn't; if you get my meaning.

[Vuldari]

Let's take the concept of Shifting as a meatphor for any sort of extreme physical activity.
In that sense, I still remember my first forty kilometer march, with eighty pounds of kit and my M-14 as well ( and the ammo for it). I hurt like there was no tomorrow! My hair hurt! I hoped I'd just die right then and there.
Then, many weeks later, I and the platoon of which I was a member were involved with war games as a part of the final section of basic training.
After a fifty kilometer march, setting up a bivouac, and getting ready for maneuvers the next day; I couldn't sleep; not for the pain, but for the excitement! I hurt, yes; and I was tired--but it wasn't like the first march in the discomfort area, not at all!
Same thing in working out--a strenuous one will have you hurting a lot at first; but later you look for "the burn" and welcome it as proof you are accomplishing something desirable.
I suspect that Shifting is much like that- the actual pain changes as you are accustomed to it; and the percieved pain is now desired, as part of your accomplishing a change from Smooth Human to WolfKindred as a Werewolf...unless you had other plans for the evening. Oops!
So, it changes, but it doesn't; if you get my meaning.

Exactly. It never STOPS hurting...but you build up an endurance for it after a while, and eventually you may just stop worrying about how much it hurts anymore, even if it still does. You feel GREAT when it's done, so it's worth it.


...or like going to the chiropractor...

"...OW !!!!..." ... *relaxes* ... "...Ahhhhhhhhh..."