Smoking: Bad Habit or Lifestyle?

[Vuldari]

Kaebora: This conversation was split from another thread. It has a good point/counter-point read to it, so I decided to split it off into its own thread due to how off-topic it was. The original question was... "If you could commit any crime and get away with it, what would you do?"

You know what...I just thought of something after all...

I would napalm every Tobacco Field on the planet, and put all the Tobacco companies in the world out of business. With no source to get their "Fix" from, every tobacco user on earth would be forced to quit temporarily. By the time anyone got new fields and businesses up and running again, millions of smokers and chewers world wide would have beat the habit, and I think the world would be a better place because of it.

I could never make Everyone stop...but even 40% would make it worth while, I think.

[Kirk Hammett]

I like it, Vuldari. Wish my mother would stop smoking.

[Miragh]

Yes! Without the source for my 'fix' I'll finally REACH IMMORTALITY!

No offence Vuldari, it is a noble plan, but I hope your not one of those who have to
harass smokers about how bad their habit is. I think we know that well enough.

For the topic: I'm going to steal this:



And would have some fun, while travelling through the world. Of course I'd take a few
people with me, especially mates.. and maybe even the pack.. who knows ;)

An empty cruise liner still beats the thoughts about 'all alone in a mall'.

[Vuldari]

No offence Vuldari, it is a noble plan, but I hope your not one of those who have to
harass smokers about how bad their habit is. I think we know that well enough.

Obviously not, if they/you are still doing it anyway.

Smokers who want you to 'Leave Them Alone' only pretend to believe in the "Live and Let Live" philosophy...but in reality, they just don't give a damn about themselves or anyone else regarding their habits and just want us to sit back and gag on their smoke and awful ashtray smell, making the world around them miserable as they slowly kill themselves, forcing the rest of us to watch them do it.

...Bull...

If they are serious about understanding the faults of their actions, then they will be glad for the encouragement to quit.

Letting them get away with that without being nagged about it is just helping them to pretend that there is not a problem, and that they are not doing anything wrong. They ARE...it IS bothering me, and you had better believe I have every damn right to SAY SO.

That is the price you pay for making the people around you put up with your disgusting activities. If you don't like it...stop smoking...

[*nagowteena*]

Yes I agree with Vuldari. My mom smokes. I hope she quites soon.

[*nagowteena*]

well then I'm happy since my mom is trying to quite smokeing. and to those people who are smokers. I hope you can try and quite. for your helth. and If you don't want to be botherd it's nun of my bissnes. but to those who do and really want to quite please don't give up. give it all you've got.

[Vuldari]

hm, but u have to remember that smoking is extremely addictive. smokers that insist on being left alone are usually, inside, angry at themselves for being unable to quit, so they show this by gettin angry at those who bother them. they "know" there is nuthing they can do about thier habit, so they wish ppl would stop wasting thier energy on them.

It's not wasted energy so long as there is still hope, and a part of them really WANTS to quit, or at least realizes how much harm it is doing...not only to themselves, but to those around them, and those who care about them.

Just because someone has temporarily given up on themselves does not mean everyone around them has given up on them as well...or wants to.

My Mother Smokes...and so Does my Godfather...who just had Surgery on his tongue to remove a cancerous tumor, and is currently in the hospital in recovery, unable to speak. (He has not told me yet in his e-mails how much of his speech he will be able to regain. There was fear that it might have been too deep and he would have had to loose his entire tongue, but thankfully that was not the case. SMOKING has been positively identified as the cause of his cancer...as well as further troubles in his lungs.)

I will not wait until my mother is in her older brothers situation. I am going to prod and nag her as much as I think will help to convince her to finally quit...and I do the same for all of my friends who smoke as well.

Smoking is a Stupid thing to do. ...and I'm going to keep saying it until that message sinks in. I do not give up on the ones I care about...even when they think they have given up on themselves.

[Ink]

Smoking is a Stupid thing to do. ...and I'm going to keep saying it until that message sinks in. I do not give up on the ones I care about...even when they think they have given up on themselves.

To momentarily hop off topic I'm going to make a comment about this because this is a passionate argument I hear a lot. I understand, first of all, your frustration - at the same time the seeming outrage at smokers is also not your place. Smoking, from the beginning, is a choice and a right - as odd as that sounds.

Years ago my grandmother passed away due to cancer which revisited her after she started smoking again. The cancer began at her lungs, wound around her internal organs until she was incapable of eating and blood was pooling in her stomach. She spent days vomiting black pools of blood at the expense of her choice and never once said she regretted it. By the context of the culture she grew up in smoking was something enjoyed and she did indeed enjoy it.

I helped carry her between rooms and watched her dying ever so slowly and through it all I was venomously mad until she told me she never regretted it.

This is of but one of many of my family who died due to a choice. Calling it what one will is subjective - most of us have suffered in some way by something but the responsibility to our self is just that. It is one's own responsibility to care, protect and help themselves - and to ask for help when it is needed.

On the same note, years later, I smoke and am an avid pro-choice smoker. Not because I am unaware of the ramifications or the turbulence it brings, but because I enjoy having a cigarette and I smoke to savor, reflect, and relax. I smoke carefully - I avoid chain-smoking, I stopped smoking American cigarettes years ago. I don't damn anybody who does or does not smoke. I do not smoke amidst nonsmokers and I do not make anybody stand by me while I've lit up a cigarette. I smoke for me - nobody else.

Now, if someone is trying to quit - you are probably a more than wonderful resource for them. For the rest of the world, I believe the smoker has been treaded upon too harshly, unjustly, and nobody is willing to take responsibility for themselves. The smoking industry is what needs reform and regulation - the FDA and USDA need to swing their weight of regulation upon the processing of natural tobacco and the buyer beware should still be well understood.

However, smoking itself - from the first grasp of a cigarette - is a choice for the individual of age and it should be respected as so. Nobody earns brownie points for harassing people - harassment is equally as stupid as smoking when attacking a smoker who's doing such a thing because they honestly want to.

Smoking is a choice - the after effects both short-term and long term, whether recognized or not, are part of that choice. It should not be stigmatized but respected and understood - otherwise we begin to govern the rights of other people and that is a far more dangerous line to tread on.

I mean this sincerely as simply another perspective - and I commend passion... I just wanted to put that on the table - no mal-intent involved.

------------------------


Now, as for a crime I'd commit without the trouble of redressing by law:

Setting lose the chickens outback behind the Chinese food place - since, well, it's obviously comical to watch cops chase chickens but I feel tampering with someone else's property in this case would be justified. Even if setting them lose would be illegal (since they do own the property and the chickens are still alive and not inside the facility or marked as being used for food... yet).

It's illegal for chickens to be slaughtered outback of a resturant - and I'm all for eating chickens, I just want them inspected - health safety is important when eating at bad Chinese restaurants. Ironic as it seems we still go there - but only to catch a glimpse of the last chicken that ran out into the dining area and then bolted for the door to the obvious and disturbed humor of me and my friends...

[Vuldari]

Not all that is desirable are things that a person should have.


Having your own personal slave that will do your every bidding without question or moral restraint could be a very desirable thing.


When someone has done something that upsets you, it can be very desirable to wish to cause that person extreme pain or DEATH in retaliation and revenge.


If you have one person you care about very much who has had a very hard life, it very well could make you very happy to take away everything nice from others who have been more fortunate and give it all to that one person, making all the rest suffer as they did just so that one can know what a life of luxury feels like. ...regardless of the reasons why the others lived well, or why the one lived so rough.



...all of these things could bring Genuine feelings of Joy and Satisfaction to those on the receiving end of these desires.


But...just because a thing makes you happy...does not make it right.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Taking whatever you want, just because you want it, and not caring about or taking responsibility for the ramifications is barbaric and uncivilized.


It is a NECESSITY for modern civilization to survive and thrive, especially in a world where living space becomes more scarce every day and people are forced to get along in mass-group settings every day, for all Human beings to learn to act not only for their own desires, but for the mutual joy and benefit of the entire social environment they live in.


Smoking is a selfish, greedy joy, that not only does not benefit anyone besides the person doing it, and only briefly for a tiny buzz...but results in a disproportionately high level of discomfort, unpleasantness, and even Pain and DEATH that effects far more than just the one smoking for a comparatively trivial bit of pleasure.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

You state the fact (and yes, I don't deny that your story about her regretting nothing was likely true) that your Grandmother did not regret her actions as VALIDATION for repeating her choice of self destruction.

That is a laugh.

Saddam Hussein died for his crimes against humanity, and he did not regret killing all of those innocent people. He likely took great pleasure out of much of what he did, because he believed he had the "RIGHT" to do so.


Your Grandmother Died as a result of the crimes she committed against herself, and as a result you, your family, and all of her smoking buddies have had her stolen away from you sooner, and more painfully than she should have been.


Taking pleasure, and having no guilty conscience about committing such Evils against oneself, and those around you is absolutely despicable.


Being "CIVILIZED" means taking responsibility for your own actions, and being a positive force within the community.


Sometimes that means NOT breaking your little brothers nose when he is being a pest for the 'umpteenth' time...even if you know that doing so would make you genuinely happy.


It is your moral and civil responsibility to make intelligent and beneficial decisions whenever possible.


To 'Deny' that responsibility is the foundation of "Benefitless Selfishness" ...aka EVIL. Tiny Evils are still Evils. ...and Evil can feel good...but it's still Evil.

IMHO "Smoking is EVIL"


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


It is essential for "FREE WILL" to exist in its truest and most just form to allow anyone at any time to choose between actions of GOOD and actions of EVIL at their own leisure.


So...on a fundamental basis, YES...you do have every right to choose to smoke. As a citizen of any self-respecting nation that provides itself upon supporting the rights of "Free Will" to all its people, your actions are your own to choose.

However, this remains a double-edged sword.

For...just as you have the right to commit acts of greed and evil as you choose, it is also the fundamental right for the people around you to act in retaliation and defend the better interests of the populace as a whole, and to do so by whatever manner is deemed most appropriate.



Regardless of how much you may enjoy "Lighting Up" with your smoking friends, it has been a time proven fact that smoking has a disproportionately negative effect on all cultures, communities and people involved with it...which is why the majority fighting for the benefit of the community and the Human Race as a whole have made "Smoking Ban" laws increasingly popular year after year.



Yup...you have the right to act in disgusting, selfish and harmful ways...and I have the right to say, "Fine...but not in MY house...not in THIS restaurant...and not in OUR City. Go be stupid, gross and suicidal somewhere else. ...or get smart and learn to live better WITH us...Without Cigarettes."

[Vuldari]

I know I am going to piss a few people off with that last post, but there is a bit of philosophy in that message there which is important to me. I just wish that I could find a way to phrase it more simply and clearly.

...a clarification and distinction between freedom and irresponsibility...

The first phrase in bold covers it...but does not explain itself.


I wish I could have phrased my opinion better, but at the same time, I don't want to take back what I said. I'm sure someone will point out faults in things that I said soon enough, and I welcome it.

My Philosophy is my life, and it is ever growing and changing as I learn and grow myself.

...as I said earlier in this thread, it goes against everything I believe in to act and not accept responsibility for the outcome. If you are angry at me for anything I have said above, tell me so. If I have said something stupid, let me know. If you have some insight to share with me that points out some Evils I am, or have been committing myself...please share.

My most despised and least tolerated enemy is "Stupidity"...but my greatest foe and most consistent obstacle is "Ignorance". Though the two frequently go hand in hand, they are not the same thing.

I do not believe I am a stupid person...but I can not deny I am still ignorant about a great many things. Spewing random profanity at me will teach me nothing. ...but explaining to me in your own words what I may be doing wrong, and why one is angry at me might just help clear away a little more of my ignorance and make me a smarter, stronger person for it.

..so please...if you have anything to say regarding my previous post, make it constructive.



Otherwise, just carry on with the Primary Subject of this thread. My apologies for dragging the subject off-topic once again.

[Ink]

Long, but it's a mass of thoughts in regards to this too...

Not all that is desirable are things that a person should have.

And so? Cars kill people more frequently than anything. Most of us desire one - if it should kill so many and yet be so desired should we not have it?

Desire and want is all that manifests by our teachings - by being human. Don't be crass and assume that judgment on what is and what is not desirable is at the whims of the right and wrong assumed by one culture, one person, or one mind.

This world - in many shapes and forms, cultures and ways, have successfully managed for decades and centuries. Only upon learning something is 'bad' (as a kid or as an adult - regardless of whether or not it is or is not 'bad') we shun these things.

These things are purely elements of culture, desire, and the ways of thought we pattern - as all humans do.

Having your own personal slave that will do your every bidding without question or moral restraint could be a very desirable thing.

When someone has done something that upsets you, it can be very desirable to wish to cause that person extreme pain or DEATH in retaliation and revenge.

If you have one person you care about very much who has had a very hard life, it very well could make you very happy to take away everything nice from others who have been more fortunate and give it all to that one person, making all the rest suffer as they did just so that one can know what a life of luxury feels like. ...regardless of the reasons why the others lived well, or why the one lived so rough.

...all of these things could bring Genuine feelings of Joy and Satisfaction to those on the receiving end of these desires.

But...just because a thing makes you happy...does not make it right.

Right and wrong are subjective - as is happiness and sorrow. Hence why to some smoking is a lingering plague and evil while to others is a past-time shared.

It's a behavior - loved by some, found to be hated by others. But the world doesn't swing on the hinges of how right or wrong something is in our minds. The reality is far more complex than black and white, right or wrong and so is humankind.

Taking whatever you want, just because you want it, and not caring about or taking responsibility for the ramifications is barbaric and uncivilized.

It is a NECESSITY for modern civilization to survive and thrive, especially in a world where living space becomes more scarce every day and people are forced to get along in mass-group settings every day, for all Human beings to learn to act not only for their own desires, but for the mutual joy and benefit of the entire social environment they live in.

Responsibility is something we find righteous - and to some is a foreign ideal. It's an abstract thought no matter how much effort and meaning you wield into it. You bring the context of your learnings - not the rest of the world into play here. Barbaric and uncivilized as it might be in your mind those words themselves imprint a line of ignorance for an overly passionate argument.

For you it is important to have responsibility - for you it is important to not be 'barbaric' or 'uncivilized'. But these are not arguments of or for the world as they are crass and indignant form of subjective name calling - what do you say to the native tribes in the jungles of the Amazon or the far reaching spaces of Kenya? Are they barbaric and uncivilized?

What of the Roman Catholic culture? Or the Hindi and the Buddist religious cultures? I could go on but I think you get my point.

Nothing is necessary in this world - survival is not necessary, it is merely something we seem to do. Throw the thought of musts and needs out of your mind. Cars and buses, houses and the very foundation by which we all live is not necessary. These are wants of a CULTURE, of a WAY OF LIFE - their necessity is in our thoughts and minds and the patterns by which we've all been raised. The universe does not bend for us and give us 'needs' - we are bare babies in a world and we make do with what we know. We want water and food and shelter and love for survival - because that's what survival is - we might need them for survival but we must have a want for them before we care to survive.

Necessity is a big word - keep it in check and tread lightly when you start defining needs and wants. You bear more context to yourself than the rest of the planet and that is dangerous. It overstates human and life's importance.

And you'll note, should you ever pick a rock up and look underneath it at all the living things that dwell that life is cheap on planet earth and there's no cosmic law that writes a necessity for it.

Smoking is a selfish, greedy joy, that not only does not benefit anyone besides the person doing it, and only briefly for a tiny buzz...but results in a disproportionately high level of discomfort, unpleasantness, and even Pain and DEATH that effects far more than just the one smoking for a comparatively trivial bit of pleasure.

You could name names at smoking all day - you could jump up and down about greenhouse gases and global warming in the same light too.

Pain and death happen on their own accord - my cousin's currently in the ICU due to a car accident. Pain and death by driving a car too recklessly - but what a trivial pleasure it is to drive a car. And it's not a necessity for her to have a car - for any of us to - at least not in the scheme of outright physical survival, and even then, in this case, it's a double edged sword.

The car, even in it's awesomeness as a car, still has blinded my cousin and brought her to face death and unknown brain damage. Yet I don't jump up and down on the hoods of cars today and call them evil. Even if it was that she wanted a car, that she filled it with harmful pollutants, and drove around aimlessly - only to then, hurt herself in a car crash.

Pain and death are brought on by so many things we have and we do - it's that perspective that is something few address.

You state the fact (and yes, I don't deny that your story about her regretting nothing was likely true) that your Grandmother did not regret her actions as VALIDATION for repeating her choice of self destruction.

That is a laugh.

No, I harbored ill will still for many years - even after understanding my grandmother's lack of regret. Then I turned eighteen and decided to stop preaching, and I went and bought a pack of cigarettes. Terrible things they were I didn't smoke more than one.

Upon going to school I tried smoking Hookah at a friend's house. They are Indian and practices Hinduism and the Hookah is an old-time thing but they still enjoy it. I also was given some Indian cloves and began smoking them. It was a relaxing cultural thing we enjoyed and I continue to enjoy.

My grandmother would not have validated me smoking - no parent validates their children driving most of the time due to the choices they make could be their last on a roadway. But it is not for them to decide or for my memories of them to validate even.

They made their choice and I'll make mine. Validation is not a course, and my actions - laugh and judge as you may, are my own.

Saddam Hussein died for his crimes against humanity, and he did not regret killing all of those innocent people. He likely took great pleasure out of much of what he did, because he believed he had the "RIGHT" to do so.

Your Grandmother Died as a result of the crimes she committed against herself, and as a result you, your family, and all of her smoking buddies have had her stolen away from you sooner, and more painfully than she should have been.

Taking pleasure, and having no guilty conscience about committing such Evils against oneself, and those around you is absolutely despicable.

Yes, I can find correlations between my grandmother and Saddam Hussein too. They were both people, they both made choices.

I totally see how that makes complete sense.

If you're going to create correlations understand that that can be done a million times over in a stretch of far greater relativity - this, however, is not relative. And to have a correlation to make sense you need to not pluck genocidal criminals from the shelf and arrange them to fit every smoking old-timer on the planet.

Also, to clarify - my grandmother's death was not too soon or too late or too painful. She died the way she did, regardless of the thump that she died too soon or too something else. That's anti-smoker propaganda: you die due to whatever causation there is - there's no manifestation of destiny that she failed to meet or fate gone awry - the woman just died. The process happens. A lot, actually. Don't drum on it like it's more than something - she wasn't stolen from us as life involves death and is an action that plays second fiddle only to life itself. Hence the idea that she was 'stolen' from us is only for those trying to point fingers at something in life rather than letting the dead be as they are.

Evils against one's self is also a subject of opinion. Don't morph that into something as calling my grandmother Saddam Hussein - that's asinine and presents no real rationalized argument.

Call her a spokesperson for the average cigarette by smoking and you might be finding a correlation of behavior. But the slaughtering of hundreds of thousands compared to a few packs of cigarettes alone in her house - that's a misrepresentation of correlating subjects in reality.

And you, as an intellectual and apparently responsible person from what I've seen, ought to be ashamed of such a bizarre attempt at tackling an irrelevant subject matter.

Being "CIVILIZED" means taking responsibility for your own actions, and being a positive force within the community.

It is your moral and civil responsibility to make intelligent and beneficial decisions whenever possible.

To 'Deny' that responsibility is the foundation of "Benefitless Selfishness" ...aka EVIL. Tiny Evils are still Evils. ...and Evil can feel good...but it's still Evil.

IMHO "Smoking is EVIL"

Don't be crass! Responsibility is not inborn and being 'civilized' is a word used to downgrade other humans and is purely bred from higher-status people kicking anybody viewed 'less' human. Both are manifested by the world and cultures we live in. Communities make up what we owe and we give what we are patterned to give to the community - it's not a necessary thing. These things are not branded into the soul of humanity as some righteous uplifting of how we must be slaves to other humankind for justification of our lives.

Those thoughts might exist due to how we all manage to live our lives and access the internet but they're awfully fundamentalist in my book when taken so literally. A person is responsible for themselves and only for their actions should they infringe on others -

If a smoker smokes alone at home, or with smoker friends - fine. Be it as it may it's not the 'responsibility' for the rest of the world to run their lives.

If you want to call something 'evil' call the invasiveness of others 'evil'.

I have no problem with not smoking at bars or restaurants - I smoke with only those who smoke with me and are willing to stand there. Nobody's handcuffed to my side.

Be careful publish a hold on something you're so passionate about but cannot seem to manifest an idea that's wholesome. I understand and admire your passion - but put it into an argument not a crusade to make the world more 'civilized' in your eyes.

It is essential for "FREE WILL" to exist in its truest and most just form to allow anyone at any time to choose between actions of GOOD and actions of EVIL at their own leisure.

So...on a fundamental basis, YES...you do have every right to choose to smoke. As a citizen of any self-respecting nation that provides itself upon supporting the rights of "Free Will" to all its people, your actions are your own to choose.

However, this remains a double-edged sword.

For...just as you have the right to commit acts of greed and evil as you choose, it is also the fundamental right for the people around you to act in retaliation and defend the better interests of the populace as a whole, and to do so by whatever manner is deemed most appropriate.

Regardless of how much you may enjoy "Lighting Up" with your smoking friends, it has been a time proven fact that smoking has a disproportionately negative effect on all cultures, communities and people involved with it...which is why the majority fighting for the benefit of the community and the Human Race as a whole have made "Smoking Ban" laws increasingly popular year after year.

What is not a double edged sword? What is not as back and white as the cover might call it out to be? Pumping gas is an evil to some - using DDT is an evil to some - but you're naming an enemy as if though good and evil are standing in a lineup.

Evil and good are fabrications of humankind's thought - not essentials of being. It's like defining 'they' and 'them' but giving no real name to the enemy and friend in an argument.

Yes, there is culturally negative basins that exist - defined as interruptions to the cultural whole. The list is wide and long and varies culture to culture. In some culture's it is very evil to name the names of the dead - and upon death those people are to be forgotten and never spoken of.

Now, is that an evil? It could be. To you or me it might seem deliberately awful. To some people, especially Christian folk, it could sound revolting - we place gravestones out to mark and signal our dead - but for those that practice such a culture it is very real to those people. Though, for you they might be 'uncivilized' folk and need not be thought of as human communities should live. Ahem.

Regardless, smoking itself is not a detriment to a culture - and how would you obviously know? I spend my days studying culture - smoking can be used to prep for a multitude of things: an action before war, a relaxing element to bring about culturally induced hallucinations, a spiritual thing, and one of personal pleasure. Something shared only between friends, something used by lovers after intercourse as a sign of pride and satisfaction.

It's not by your standards that these cultures suffer - many of them today survive and thrive. Some are natives or 'the uncivilized' and some in today's Gotham.

Nothing is so black and white as good and evil - this world is far more complex than such an old ideal.

Yup...you have the right to act in disgusting, selfish and harmful ways...and I have the right to say, "Fine...but not in MY house...not in THIS restaurant...and not in OUR City. Go be stupid, gross and suicidal somewhere else. ...or get smart and learn to live better WITH us...Without Cigarettes."

And THAT is what you are right about - you are the ability to CHOOSE. Not in your house, not in certain places to harm others. That I utterly respect beyond a notion of a doubt.

But by that you should revel in the choice as yours - and you should respect the ability to not be so viciously judgmental when a choice is made by other's.

It's so easily to find faults in one another rather than respect the people around you - and that's all I am asking.

It is, however, not a necessity - as barbaric as it might seem to me.

Take this not as in a harmful attempt at correcting or judging you - I simply meant to key in my thoughts. I respect your way of thinking - I admire the fervor in which you place it. I understand where you're coming from - but I am tired of people sharpening a sword and shutting their ears and mind to the thought of accepting fellow man for their free choices - regardless of our personal judgments.

I want people to not demand other's change because we feel it's necessary for them to be changed - I want people to understand each other and respect that.

I know some of this is brazen and sassy - but I admire you're passion, I really do - and I have my own as does everyone else.

No harm is meant, and I am merely setting forth what I have to say - even if I am interrupting the seduction of ideal criminal activity in this thread.

And with that I say end-note - if you want to discuss this more I'm up for making a thread about it. It might be fun - and sassy - but I honestly don't harbor any malice about a good and passionate discussion.

[Vuldari]

That is far too much for me to respond to it all right now, but I would just like to say THANK YOU for the responsible, intelligent and respectful response INK.


...that was far better than I was anticipating.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -


You make a good point about how nothing is truly Black or White in terms of Good and Evil. ...that is actually the primary motivation for me choosing such an extreme comparison as your Grandmother vs. Saddam Hussein. One must sometimes use the darkest examples they can find to make a point, as examples that are of a lighter shade of Grey will often appear too close to ones own daily activities, thus making the point seem to be pointless or have no merit. (which sadly, I feel, is because the average, everyday activities of many are often darker than is wise).


As for right and wrong being completely subjective and not cosmically defined...I agree.


It is my belief that there really is no destiny or pre-defined POINT to life. On the cosmic scale...it is no better or worse for a collection of atoms and molecules to be in the shape and form of cosmic dust, a rock, or a life form. Life...Death...merely different configurations and states of the matter filling the universe...nothing more. On that level, it's true that nothing DOES matter.


However, regardless of what it really is, life forms such as Humans or anything else with cognitive ability have a thing we know as "Opinion" and "Preference". Some things make us happy...and some things make us un-happy.

Therefore, the ultimate self-defined purpose and "Meaning of Life" for all sentient creatures in the universe is the collected pursuit of Happiness.

Happiness is achieved by fulfilling "Desires". Unhappiness is created by being denied ones desires and/or being over-exposed to pain.



...now this, as you have been explaining in your own words, is where it gets really complicated.



This fundamental truth is hardwired into the minds of every human and self-conscious creature on the planet. However, Wisdom and Far-Sighted thinking sadly is not.



It is the argument of all who do anything questionable or debatable that it is their RIGHT to pursue whatever they desire, and get it, because it is, in fact, their sole purpose in life to do just that.

That statement is not fully false...but more than a little short-sighted.



If the pursuit of one desire interferes with the pursuits of many others, and is seen to cause more displeasure and pain than benefit , than it is a wise conclusion that the questionable desire should be forgone in favor of the greater good. That is Wisdom.


"Civilization" or "Community" is the act and state of combining the actions of a large group of people into an organized effort to achieve complex desires they can not acquire individually. (more than what can be accomplished with mere Pack behavior) That requires one to look beyond their most basic instincts and, instead of acting directly towards the pursuits of their own desires only, acting for the benefit of the people around them, sacrificing their time and energy and resources to bring the desires of others to them...in the understanding that they will be given the same treatment in return for their efforts, and have their desires fulfilled by others in thanks.


When one acts towards a personal desire in a way that causes harm to themselves and displeasure to the people around them, and strives to be separated from the cycle of giving and receiving with the community, they become a leech and a burden on the community as a whole.

If you weaken your body for a petty desire, refuse to be accommodating for those around you, and don't even allow others to interact with you and help you, (preferring instead to be "Left Alone") you cease to be a benefit to the Civilized Community you live in, and instead become a "PROBLEM" that needs to be resolved for the Community as a whole to achieve it's fundamental goal...which is Mutual Happiness. (not just individual satisfaction)


Tobacco...Marijuana...Alcohol...


...all things that can, and can and do have practical and beneficial applications...but arguing the good uses for them (such as Tobacco being a shared interest that can potentially promote pleasant social interaction) does not forgive the epidemic of improper use of all of them that plagues our world today.


Yes...a CAR can be Evil too...if it is used recklessly, expends a disproportionate amount of the resources required for other needs, and pollutes the environment and destroys the world around it for small, temporary conveniences without supporting the mutual joy of the community and world as a whole, an Automobile is a thing that can be a far darker shade of Grey than light.



Getting back to the point...Smoking is Evil from my perspective because, though it may provide some amount of pleasure for some, it's long term impact clearly causes more displeasure to the community as a whole than the benefit it provides as a excuse for gathering. Other Social activities serve the same purpose without the negative effects.



Because it does not support the mutual benefit of the Community, and more often than not interferes with and undermines the collective goal of the people around it (which is mutual Happiness), then it is an action against the purpose of civilization, and therefore "UnCivilized".


IMHO...as always.

[Vuldari]

(I spent way more time than I had available to spend writing that last message this morning)


What this all keeps boiling back down to is that...smoking is bad for you physically, and the addiction is bad for you mentally, and it should be bluntly obvious why no one should ever smoke a cigarette ever again.


...but the addicts just keep fighting back with increasingly complex explanations why it is a GOOD thing for someone to willingly make themselves addicted to an activity that slowly destroys their bodies with no benefit and takes decades off their potential life span...Or how it is a BAD thing to try and stop them from doing it. So they keep doing it...and they encourage their children to do it, and invite their friends to do it with them.


The addiction factor is irrelevant to those who have never smoked and are just starting. It is the fault of irresponsible behavior and dysfunctional culture that it is not TABOO to sell Recreational Tobacco to anyone who is not already a smoker, chewer, etc.


Would someone please explain to me what possible good the act of smoking has on ANYONE?

From the perspective of someone who smokes and refuses to acknowledge that any fault is being done...why would you encourage a young person who has never smoked to pick up the habit? What joys and pleasures will they gain from it that they could not get without ever lighting something on fire in their mouth and filling their fragile lungs with whatever comes out?

What is so great about it that you would confidently tell someone to buy a pack and smoke it, in spite of having full knowledge of all of the damage it will do to their body and mind? ...and how difficult it will be for them to stop if they later decide they don't like it?


...It's fun to sit around and smoke with your friends?...


Why exactly is that better than sitting around and talking with your friends without poisoning yourselves while doing it? What regrets could you possibly have from partaking in non-smoking parties instead of the alternative?





I love a good philosophical debate, as two intelligent minds clashing can result in spectacular epiphanies...

...but I am getting really tired of arguing moral and logical fundamentals with someone who is using the most complicated jargon they can to give them an excuse to do something that even a Moron can see is BAD.

Everyone knows Smoking is bad for you. Do you deny it?

If you do not deny that smoking is a Bad Habit, then what kind of person are you to DEFEND the continuation, and spread of this?


...I don't think you are twisted enough to take pleasure in the thought of a never ending cycle of stupidity, misery, pain and pre-mature death.



So please...explain to me...


WHY THE **** ARE YOU DEFENDING this ****?!?!


...so you are addicted and you don't want to quit... WHATEVER... but why refuse to do future generations a Tremendous favor and help spread the wisdom that it is better never to start?

Your Grandmother did not grow up with the full knowledge of just how harmful her habit was...and you grew up with a woman as your guidance and influence who refused to accept that she had made a mistake...but let it end there.

Do not pass that on to your children, or your friends, or your nieces and nephews or whatever. Protect those who come after you from that curse.


You don't actually WANT more people to become addicted to and suffer from the ill effects of Recreational Tobacco...do you?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Ever since I left for work today, this conversation has been going over and over in my head, and I just keep hearing the same tired old excuses I've gotten when having similar discussions with others about Marijuana and Alcohol echoing in my mind.


"...but This culture has used it as a ritual item for centuries, and they live longer than most..."

"...but it had medicinal purposes. People would die without it..."

"...but people only use it to feel good. What do you have against feeling good?..."


1: You are not a member of that culture. They only use what they use on rare, special occasions, in controlled quantities. ...not whenever they are bored and in the mood for a buzz, and in however large a dose is needed to give them the unnatural sensation desired like you do when you use that junk.

2: What...are you sick? Do you have one of those rare diseases where that chemical is the one best treatment for it? NO? ...then you have no excuse for consuming/using it yourself.

3: This is just short sighted naivety talking. Do you really know any addicts that are truly HAPPY because of using their selected poison? ...or are they just less miserable when they are using it because, for a brief moment, they are not craving it any more and they are too buzzed to care about anything else?

If your intention is to feel good...there is an entire WORLD of better methods at your disposal...and many of them will actually leave you stronger and healthier after doing them. If it is inconvenient to do something active at the moment... talking and laughing with you friends is very enjoyable whether or not you are smoking or drinking at the time. Seriously...I know it may be hard for you to believe, but it is actually really nice when you can share a joke and a story with your friend and have a clear memory of the event the next morning.

...imagine that...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

So... what is YOUR excuse?

[Ink]

[Figarou]

Ack!! Long posts!!

If I could....

.......I'd do away with long posts!!

[Ink]

Ack!! Long posts!!

If I could....

.......I'd do away with long posts!!

Aw, Figarou, they're fun. And both are in well intent to understand each other... kind of nice for a change. Good, passionate discussion elements - IMHO.

[Kaebora]

It certainly would be easier to read if it wasn't string of thought style, but that's just me.
Nealy organizing paragraphs makes the forum happy. Nevermind, I'm being mean.

And now... here's a wolf with a ducky on his head...

[Ink]

It was done in response to various parts - but putting it in Context-Response means reposting stuff from the first post... and we all ready have so much to say...

Sadly, we aren't like Figarou's ducks - they do all the straight forward talking for him in the end.

I have no such minions...

[Kaebora]

No! No sad faces! Please, continue conversation. I didn't want to put a hamper on the debate's progress.

Did you NOT see the ducky on the wolf's head?!

[Figarou]

Aw, Figarou, they're fun. And both are in well intent to understand each other... kind of nice for a change. Good, passionate discussion elements - IMHO.

It'll be "fun to read" if the post was meant for me.

But carry on. I was only jesting.

[Ink]

Heh - I edited a little to separate it better. Little being the operative word.

And I missed the ducky on the wolf's head completely...heh...

[Vuldari]

That all sounds quite beautiful INK but I fear you are viewing your habit through "Rose Colored Glasses", as the saying goes.


You choose to do Positive things WHILE smoking, and partake in socially strengthening and intellectually stimulating activity with a cigarette in your mouth while you do it. The tobacco (or whatever is your poison of preference) however, does not create any of those positive effects. Be careful not to confuse yourself and others by making it sound like Any of those things have anything to do with being a smoker or not.


It's great and all that you live such a varied and active lifestyle. ...but regardless of how great a person you strive to be, and how awesome your friends are, that has nothing to do with whether or not it is wise for any of you to be sucking down poison all the time while you are doing it. ...which is what much of this debate is ultimately about.


Part of the problem here is that you seem to have come to associate your 'smokes' as an extension of yourself, and are taking all insults towards the Ill-Advised activity as personal attacks on YOU.


You are not "A Smoker"...as if that is part of your DNA, or who you are. You are "A Person" who chooses to smoke...and by the sound of it, that is one very very poor choice you have made amongst many more very good ones.



Try to stop thinking of my lecturing as an "Attack" for a moment, and see it more as it is intended as a "Lesson", or rather, an attempt at a small bit of "Enlightenment" on the broader scope of the issue.



If you stop clumping all of your choices together, and allow the choice of smoking to be taken upon it's own merits and faults alone, I think it is clear that choice does not make much sense.

It does significant physical damage to the body each and every time it is used with no counter benefit (unlike activities like sports which only result in damage, sometimes, and are countered by a significant amount of physical benefit as the outcome of its use in the majority of applications).

In addition, its primary Draw is a 'quick fix' kind of stimulation that creates desirable sensations without any amount of significant effort on the part of the user, which can make you 'Feel Good' without first dealing with whatever may be making you Feel Bad to begin with.

This encourages and enables the user to partake in "Escapism" ... a psychological behavior which is widely known to be very self destructive to any individual.

Guilt and Pain exist for good reasons. ...they encourage us to take action to compensate for or remove the source of destructive forces against us, or discourage us from repeating actions that make us destructive forces against ourselves and those upon whose support we rely upon.

"Mood Altering" substances, such as tobacco, alcohol and marijuana are tools for fooling oneself into thinking and feeling that they are better off and more satisfied and content than they really are...which may seem nice at the moment, especially if where you are really sucks, but artificially removing ones pain is also removing ones best motivation to take action instead of hiding from ones troubles and frustrations.

[Edit: Just adding an additional mental note to preemptively respond to an argument that I suspect would have been thrown at me right away. "Escapism". No...I am NOT suggesting that this behavior only exists because of the presence of Mind Altering substances. The psychological dysfunctionality exists and manifests itself in people whether they have ever uses such substances or not. My point is...they make this behavior much, much easier. ...too easy...

Superhumanly pathetic chemically induced Apathy is but a pill, a puff a sniff, a shot or a swig away. It is psychologically inadvisable to teach a mind that they can just "Turn Off" the troubles of the world like that in their mind...just like that.]



One must step back and look at the BIG PICTURE to really get a good scope on the ramifications and justifiability of their actions, in the long run.



It may very well be true that application of Mood Altering substances can, on occasion, result in thoughts and creative ideas that might not have ever come to be imagined otherwise, (take much of the music by "The Beatles", for example), and that any and all use of such things does not immediately result in doom and despair, but can in fact pass without any noticeable ill effect at all.


However, as easy as it may be to do, one can not always behave as if only the most ideal of possible outcomes will most often occur.


There is a great difference between what "Can" happen, (or NOT happen), and what "Does" and "IS" happening.



Unopposed, Free use of popular Mood Altering Substances may allow a number of responsible users to apply their poisons in less destructive manners...and to those few, the relief from the nagging and discouragement against their choice of actions may feel like a God Send ...at least...so long as they don't bother to look at the world outside of their social bubble.


As much as it sucks to admit it, Human Beings in general are Short Sighted, Weak Minded fools on the most part. It is natural for us to act stupidly. If one takes the trouble to look at the way MOST people use such substances, they will find that the unfortunate majority use them for the most self-destructive reasons...primarily ESCAPISM...which results in a great deal of compounding troubles that are being "Smoked Away" or "Drowned" rather than dealt with properly. (Including the gradual physical degradation being caused by the substance itself...which is mostly, inadvisably ignored)


This is detrimental to the function and purpose of any community, and as I stated previously, is counter active against the very goals and benefits of "Civilization" itself.



Most Human Beings simply can not be trusted to be responsible with such tempting and easily abused things. Sad, but True.

And just as one is wise to refrain from lighting matches before the eyes of a young child, and then leaving them out within their reach, (tempting the naive child to recreate the magic of FIRE themselves without having the knowledge and good sense to take precautions against setting the house ablaze), it is inevitably a disaster in most cases to flash a "Quick Fix" before the eyes of someone who is desperate to Hide and Run Away from their troubles (by using it yourself) ...which, sadly, in the world we live in today, constitutes a mind-boggling number of people... and then leave them with the message and attitude, "...go ahead...you can use it too, as much and in any way you want...".



Defending the rights for the responsible few to use such things as they please ultimately means fighting to keep these things forever within the reach of the irresponsible majority as well.



...which begs me to ask...


Why is this worth fighting for again? Are you defending the right to poison yourself? What would be the point of that? So then, are you defending the right to apply artificial emotional manipulation as an alternative to 'Feeling' the weight of ones personal and communal responsibilities?

FYI, in case you didn't know, that has a primarily negative effect in the long term.



Please don't confuse the condemnation of a single, majority abused action with denying ones rights to gather around common interests.

Whatever you can do sitting around a Hookah with a collection of friends, you can do with something less harmful as your groups shared activity.

Eat Pie?

You loose NONE of the benefits of the activity by removing the Mood Altering Substances from the equation, and NO ONE is trying to take away your right to gather with friends around objects and/or activities of common interest.

I highly encourage such activities, in fact.





However...People who are using these substances for all the wrong reasons (I'm still hard pressed to come up with many "Right" reasons, besides as medicines), are committing horrendous crimes and killing each other over these things all over the world. Humanity as a whole clearly is suffering from them...quite significantly.

Are they the cause of all the problems in the world? ...HECK NO!... Not even close.

The Human race has more problems, from more sources than we seem to know how to deal with most of the time.

The thing is...it is BECAUSE we have so many troubles that such substances are so easily, and frequently abused.

You have a bad day?...you smoke your frustration away instead of confronting it, and then go back and have another frustrating day tomorrow...and the day after that... You have a bad Year?...you drink until you loose the cognitive ability to comprehend the trouble you are in and cease to care. You have a bad LIFE?...you get yourself so high that you forget what is real and wither away dreaming that you are the princess of Spain until your food runs out and you starve to death.

I'm using Extreme examples again, I know...but my point is, nothing gets better so long as people continue to support the idea that it is okay to respond to their troubles by trying to suppress the emotional stresses of their troubles like taking aspirin for a headache, instead of acting to stop the source of the pain and stress at its source.

(BTW...I discourage myself from using pain relievers whenever possible, except when under the most intense pain, in favor of learning to cope with it when I can, making minor pains feel less and less crippling as my coping skills grow, and learning to recognize what causes my pains in the first place and adjust my behavior accordingly. Most headaches, for example, are the result of dehydration, malnutrition and lack of sleep. Learning to adjust your eating and drinking habits and getting more rest is much more effective than just taking lots of Tylenol...especially since your body builds up a resistance to the effects of the pain relievers over time.)


That IS why many people choose to begin to smoke, isn't it? ...to "Buzz" their troubles away...



As tempting as that can be to do, it just isn't a Good Idea. It's not Smart...its not Constructive...your problems don't Go Away...

...and guess what? Now you are coughing, you smell like ****, and the addictive qualities of the Tobacco are re-wiring your brain so that the next time you are having troubles, instead of thinking, "Jeez...I've really got to do something about that", you will instead first and primarily think, "...OH GOD...I really need a Cigarette Right Now..." ...which solves NOTHING.


I'm talking about regular, everyday people here...not crack dealers, or criminal drunks... ordinary, otherwise casual folks like my Mother and my managers at work who I watch constantly expressing this behavior over and over again.

They talk afterward about how "GOOD" it was after they have smoked their pack, and how much of a relief it is...

...but I can see them from the outside, and I unfortunately have an all too clear look at what is really going on. They are a wreck...they are miserable, and their "Relief" is making them look and feel worse...not better.




No matter how I look at all of this, it just is not worth all the bad that comes of it. My loved ones are sick because of it...others use it to help them not care about the rest of the world, or themselves...



Everybody is Losing.

[Ink]

You’re not understanding — it doesn’t matter the wisdom of people's choices in your eyes: What matters all of us have the right to choose with the ramifications in plain view.

That’s one of the few and greatest things about the United States, where I live, work, and play. We have such a great power and great freedom as an individual.

Plus, you do not have the obligation to “teach’ me what’s wiser for me or what is not. Unless you believe you’re Marxist and I fully understand where you’re coming from then. But I’m a libertarian and believe — rather strictly — that human responsibility and choice is for the individual to make (under the right pretenses: truthful industry).

I agree — smoking is an escape — like playing with fireworks it can ultimately blow up in your face (and, also like playing with fireworks, it probably will given Murphy’s Law). But so are a lot of things - harmful things - be it substances or actions towards one's self. Do we start regulating how much the obese can eat? They've chosen a poison for themselves (that'll ultimately kill them faster than smoking, in some cases).

I also don't agree with the idea that humankind's vices in any way indicate our stupidity. These do not make humans so trivial as to be stupid. We are the human beast — no other creature can even BEGIN to see as far as we do on the shelf of self reflection, ego, and the playing field of culture. We aren’t stupid — we’re complex. And in some cases, yes, that hinders us. But don’t clump the world like we’re morons — that does humankind no justice to be colorblind to our nature and is in it's own way short sighted.

Now - In your mind it isn’t worth it to smoke. That’s fine! That’s great — don’t! For me it’s different — I made the decision on the other side. I’ll have a clove, I’ll smoke a hookah, or I’ll gnaw on some Marlboro smoke should I feel so inclined.

Or I won’t — yet I shouldn’t have to justify my choice about why and what good it does.

Political correctness doesn’t survive the individual.

It’s MY decision — and each of us gets that choice to make. It shouldn’t be so criminal whether or not it’s “wise’ or not. Let the world do what it does behind closed doors. If we don’t have the freedom to do what we want, respectively, at the end of the day, than what is living worth? Where do any of us begin and end — at the whims of each other?

It’s not about cigarettes anymore: It’s about the choice. We know the information, we know the ramifications. But the individual still should get to choose.

For me smoking is my decision, it is part of me, it reflects upon me as I am currently a smoker (albeit a clove smoker, and some smokers would laugh at me for it). And, while I take to heart my decision, I don’t defend smoking as a wonderful, wholesome task.

I simply defend my right to do it. That’s all.

In the end, if I lost the choice to do what I will in this world, albeit for myself and not against fellow humans, then that’s a great loss.

A loss where everybody losses the ability to make a choice for themselves, and to play the cards of life the way they want to.

And I’m not saying this for the sake of the cigarette — I’ve lived without cigarettes and hookahs and cloves. But, my freedom is why I value to defend this.

My ability to choose is my ability alone - and for you it is the same. It is not the responsibility of the world. Whether it is whom I bring home or what poison I can have today — that’s mine and mine alone to decide.

That’s all — that’s it: defending the decision and right of the individual to decide for themselves to smoke if they want or not to and fully accepting the nature of the fiendish curl of smoke at it's worst.

Everyone down the line has a stance to take - and that's the power of free choice. No need to demand an explanation.

It's a choice - one of many more. But as people who cherish the ability to live life without answering to your neighbors for justification, I would say it should be an equally respected thing.

That's all...

There's no excuse for ignorance these days - so the choice can be made with all the fear installed right in us against such behavior. As it should be - cigarettes will hurt you.

But the choice can still be made for ourselves. And all I wish the rest of the world would see is that - make the smoker take responsibility and walk away.

It's not your fault, it might be painful, you might loss the one's you love - but it's not your decision. And hopefully it never will be either of ours to determine the fated choice of others.

That's not the place of the individual or even the majority to rule the personal life of people. (I know - there are laws that do that to a degree - and some are hypocritical - but for the majority we do have a lot of freedom).

And I suppose that's all I really have to say really. Whether or not you feel it's right - at least you get the insight of what I had to say and I got yours.

I suppose that's all two arguing parties can ask for.

[Fang]

And now Duckies for all

[Ink]

Duckies...!