Werewolves as their own species.

[Anubis]

I keep hearing people say that werewolves are some kind of human or wolf with the ability to shape shift into a wolf, human, or a wolf-human hybrid. Also werewolves are able to reproduce with humans to create healthy, fertile offspring. These ideas don't sound right in a scientific view.

Let me explain, werewolves (or at lest our brand) can transform into three different forms, and on some level regenerate, not to mention turn humans into werewolves as well. Those abilities alone qualifies it to be its own separate spices.

but that's just a start, humans have 23 chromosomes, and wolves have 78 chromosomes. Werewolves have to store the genetic code of three separate forms in each nucleus. How may I ask you, all of that information is contained with in 23 chromosomes? It can't, even when one piece of DNA can be responsible for more than one function (The main reason why genetic engineering hasn't made us into real life furries, or what ever) more "code" is needed.

This shuts down the theory that werewolves can mate with a human. Our genetic code and theirs isn't compatible. We can't fill the order to match the werewolf's DNA, even if they match the same chromosomes count, the code is too different. It's like finishing a program in C# but the rest is written in Java, it's not going to happen.

Even if they are an off branch of the human race, it would end up like the liger. For those who don't know a liger is the bastard child of a lion and a tiger, they only exists in captivity. The lion and tiger are two animals belonging to the feline family, they never been in contact with each other in the wild. Unlike wolves and dogs that similar enough to breed a healthy offspring. The tiger and loin are considered separate species, but apparently close enough to actually breed.

Here's the catch, the result of this unnatural breeding is riddled health problems, and most die before they are adults. Those that do make it to adult hood are often sterile, meaning that they can't reproduce.

Finally some of the stuff they do is unheard of in the natural world. Like changing a member of a different species into one of their own by making their own retro-virus, and shape shifting in a short amount of time. Animals in the natural world mimic to eat, and/or not be eaten. Like moths that mimics pheromones of honey bees to grab a meal, and an octopus that makes his body change colors and acts like other animals to avoid predators, but no known creature on earth can completely change it self physically to mimic another animal. Only thing on earth can come close is insects that take weeks to metamorphose to another form. What insects do in weeks werewolves can do better, change back at will, and a hell of a lot faster. It's unheard of!

Werewolves are just too different to be considered a human or even a wolf in that matter.

((Man, i can keep going, but i have to go. I'll post more of my argument later ))

[Vuldari]

I never liked the concept of Werewolves being an entirely different species from either Humans or Wolves.

In my own mind, all of the issues you described are made null by the fundamental assumption that all Werewolves, at the core, are HUMANS...who through scientifically improbable means (often magic), change their form into the shape of a Wolf (or Gestalt hybrid shape), and though they may gain some physiological and psychological/personality attributes of wolves, they are still essentially modified Humans and not true "Hybrids" like Ligers.

In that respect, my natural assumptions are that they would retain a standard Human number of chromosomes that contain modified wolf coding intertwined with their own, (or rather, the way I often imagine it is that the two would not actually be combined, but instead exist simultaneously side-by-side working in symbiosis within the single body. Such an arrangement does not exist in nature as far as I know...but then neither do real werewolves, so that makes as much sense as anything else).

Under my own assumptions, since they are still human in nature, their core genetics (and genetic fertility/compatibility) would remain the same.


...That is my own opinion on the subject anyway.

[Scott Gardener]

I see two competing schools of thought for how lycanthropy is dealt with in my own storyline. Note that my storyline follows a science model, with lycanthropy spread by a virus-like subcellular form. Magic models may apply similar logic, however, though they do throw some wrenches into the works.

The first argument is that werewolves are technically still human as a species. Lycanthropy adds additional DNA, but it is done on top of a human core. Persons infected with lycanthropy are born human, and should not be considered to have suddenly changed species. Those born already lycanthropic are genetically equivalent to those infected later in life--they just get to skip the hard part.

The second argument is that a lycanthrope is a symbiosis of two species--human and the virus-like biological vector. The virus-like agent is not a virus per se, being too complex and more akin to a microscopic organism in its own right. The infected individual is both biologically and psychologically modified, so the afflicted person should be considered now the summation of the two biological forms.

For political reasons, the first argument wins out for over a century, though the second gains momentum as transhumanism, post-human futurism, and civil rights for genetically engineered beings push the recognition of personhood as being distinct from being human.

[TakeWalker]

Finally some of the stuff they do is unheard of in the natural world.

You're hitting an important point here: werewolves aren't found in the natural world. At some point, you have to be able to say, "This is fantasy, and we can stretch things just a little bit for such and such reason." If you can do that and keep implausibility to a minimum, well, you're on the right track to having some good weres or whatever.

[Terastas]

The problem with werewolves being their own species is that, when you look at the history of the world, war, famine, disease, religious and ethnic persecution, etc., the chances of werewolves as a species still being alive to this day are slim to none. The only way they could have survived all this time would be if they could "recruit" normal human beings into their numbers.

[MoonKit]

Finally some of the stuff they do is unheard of in the natural world.

You're hitting an important point here: werewolves aren't found in the natural world. At some point, you have to be able to say, "This is fantasy, and we can stretch things just a little bit for such and such reason." If you can do that and keep implausibility to a minimum, well, you're on the right track to having some good weres or whatever.

.

Hey hey hey. Just because we havent found creatures that shapeshift or can become invisible doesnt mean they dont exist. They just arent common. Science ets uprooted all the time with new discoveries that make everything they once said completly wrong. People used to believe the universe evolved around the earth you know.

[RedEye]

Taking Werewolves as mutated Humans seems to be the prevalent thing, and I'll point out that every single Human alive today is the product of Natural Selection, which simply means having more offspring survive to mate than other, similar forms.
There are a lot of "almost made it's" in the Museums as fossil remiains; Neadnderthal and Cro-Magon being the most recent Human versions.
We forget that these were people once, who lived in a different world and adapted to it too well to compete with invading Humans.
Whether either of these beings could be cross-fertile with a modern Human is a subject of some debate; again based on fossil remains.
Now, this Earth is always changing, and we ourselves may someday be fossils in some museum...
The Werewolf, as a Gestalt compatible with modern Humans isn't as impossible as most people think. All it takes is the right circumstances...
We Humans are a very unstable race, genetically. That's why we have survived...so far.
Try this: delete the "Shift", and make them a separate species, more robust and generally tougher than their parent race, only with a slightly lower birth rate. This could be a plus, in the future.
We still have all the genetic information our "different" ancestors had, only it's differently arranged in us.
Could there be Werewolves? Given the right circumstances, yes! They would be non-shifting, but if the genetic information is there, just waiting a Viral "activation"...they are possible.
Consider: many Cancers are the result of a Viral activation of uncontrolled growth, as are Herpes, Measles, and other "diseases". With a Virus, infection is complete and total; the reason that we don't continue these diseases is because out immunity cancels them out: yet the disease is still there; controlled by our immune system, so it doesn't break out again.
If we go that route, then Were's are possible; if rare and unlikely.
Still, we may make them to keep humanity alive in the Future.
We are starting to experiment with genetic modification right now.

[Anubis]

Okay it seems that my ideas of werewolves being a separate spices isn't well received

But to me it sounds more realistic on scientific stand point. We usually talk about what makes a werewolf in scientific terms and some sort of curse, magic, or what ever.

I just can't accept that werewolves are just mutated humans, or humans have some kind of symbiotic relationship with a virus. It aggravates me to no end. Because they seem to be more closely related to the wolf than to us, and the mechanics of these explanations seem flawed at best. Even though humans seem to be more involved with this, like we're are the ones who are "bitten" and human form is seems the unusual form for a born werewolf. what i remind you depends on the form the mother is in when the child is conceived. (I think we came to that conclusion)

I'm not talking about if they do exist, and this is how it would work. Then work around the idea that werewolves do exist and they are unknown to us, and form my hypothesis so it would work in today's world to entertain the ideas that werewolves exist in real life. Like most people here do.

When I think about how werewolves' work, i think in the terms if some how in some bizarre fluke of evolution, or for some reason aliens came down to our planet to play god, and made a crime against nature and left it here. How would a werewolf's body work, if at all?

When I think about a TF the body sends a chemical, or electrical signal, to every cell in the body to start it. Which in my opinion sounds more stable, and safer for the cells.

You say that a virus fills the blood stream, and makes the cells in the body to do it that way. Here is where i see the problem, for a cell to get a virus inject it's RNA into it and mess with it's instructions is really not good for it, and for the cell to go through with that every time a TF in any direction. after a while some harmful genetic mutations could result... like cancer could emerge. Also it takes awhile for blood to come from the heart, and back again, so a TF could take too long.

Scott i find quite a bit wrong with your theories. When i said humans changing species, i meant that the virus changes their DNA, and their new found regenerative powers makes it possible to transform, by changing the body.

symbiosis of two species--human and the virus-like biological vector

That doesn't make sense, if that's true why is it a wolf-like creature is the result? a virus-like vector or what ever doesn't sound any thing close to a wolf. If that's true, why a wolf?

HOW OR WHY A VIRUS THAT HAS NO RELATION TO WOLVES IS TURNING HUMANS INTO WOLF-LIKE CREATURES!!!?

((If this sounds arrogant or angry, I'm sorry i didn't mean it for it to sound like that ))

[Morkulv]

I never liked the concept of Werewolves being an entirely different species from either Humans or Wolves.

I agree. Werewolves are just humans as well. I seem them as 'different humans'.

[TakeWalker]

Hey hey hey. Just because we havent found creatures that shapeshift or can become invisible doesnt mean they dont exist. They just arent common. Science ets uprooted all the time with new discoveries that make everything they once said completly wrong. People used to believe the universe evolved around the earth you know.

Okay, then. Show me a werewolf or similar creature and I'll recant.

I'm waiting.



The world and life in general just aren't cool enough for the existence of supernatural creatures, that's why we make them up. The moment someone shows me a werewolf or faerie or vampire or dragon, I'll have no problem at all believing they exist.

[Terastas]

Okay it seems that my ideas of werewolves being a separate spices isn't well received

But to me it sounds more realistic on scientific stand point. We usually talk about what makes a werewolf in scientific terms and some sort of curse, magic, or what ever.

Werewolves as a separate species does make more sense scientifically, but if you're assuming there are still werewolves alive to this day, it doesn't make sense historically. Based on the history of the world, I can't imagine a population of werewolves even surviving up to renaissance. It makes more sense that way, but justifying the existence of werewolves in present day is a hard sell that way.

[NetherMoon]

I prefer to consider Werewolves as a specie different from humans, because I like the idea of a more complex structure in social organization and tradition and maybe (why not) even religion, separate from those of human people
Normally it is said that a ww is a human undergoing a change for some reason may it be a virus, a curse, a bite or something different. So...maybe we consider him to be shocked and confused, trying to understand what is happening... maybe he'll change his habits, trying to mantain a sort of human appearence, and even with some success.
But personally I prefer to think a ww as someone completely different from a human, with his own culture and his own dna. It could be justified in many ways scientifically, historically and so on. It seems to me that this choice can generate something unique, it has many possibilities of development.
I just find it more stimulating, that's all. The "scientific" view you gave is interesting in my point of view, really

[Anubis]

Okay it seems that my ideas of werewolves being a separate spices isn't well received

But to me it sounds more realistic on scientific stand point. We usually talk about what makes a werewolf in scientific terms and some sort of curse, magic, or what ever.

Werewolves as a separate species does make more sense scientifically, but if you're assuming there are still werewolves alive to this day, it doesn't make sense historically. Based on the history of the world, I can't imagine a population of werewolves even surviving up to renaissance. It makes more sense that way, but justifying the existence of werewolves in present day is a hard sell that way.

Why werewolves being their own species makes it so that werewolves wont be able survive at all? I don't get that. My theories revolve around their characteristics, IE Transforming into wolves and back, turning humans into werewolves... ETC. Both werewolves do the same thing, but they do it differently.

The fact is the ideas of werewolves being still relatively human, and being their own separate race. Makes no difference between them on how successful they are. They both mate with other werewolves and bite humans to grow their numbers. Also transform into wolves or humans to hide from us.

Even today it wouldn't matter, there would still be sightings, and they both would be exposed by today's level of medical knowledge, and tech. They would find those abnormal physical attributes that allows them to do the things they do.

Also they both could both easily survive the Renaissance. wolves lived in both east and west hemispheres of the world long before Columbus discovered the Americas, werewolves could be the same way. Why do you think that werewolves could only exist in Europe? Both wolves and humans don't stay in the same place, we both go out and search for food, and territory. Why don't you think that werewolves aren't the same way.

Also we hadn't really tamed the wilderness of what is now the USA until the late 1800's. Even now they could be still alive if they existed. Especially in far north like Canada, and Siberia. There are places that humans have an extreme difficulty getting to even with helicopters and such. Areas where wolves and werewolves are built to survive in.

Finally our blatant stupidity and religious fanaticism in that period isn't a real factor. Even if they couldn't transform, and only reproduce sexually with their own race they most likely still be out there. The garden variety wolves were treated just as bad as if they were werewolves, and still they weren't wiped out. Also we did the same thing to native Americans, and they're still around as well.

Werewolves most likely faired better. Because werewolves are just as cunning and intelligent as us, also they can fight back. Do you seriously believe that werewolves would just sit back and wait until they all are completely destroyed?

They would both do the same thing as we would do because we both have the instinct of fight or flight. They would attack the xenophobic, genocidal maniacs to fight for their right to live. Or they would run, preserving their life as well.

Also they have an advantage, they can hide! Transforming into wolves or humans allows them to hide, both in the wild and in human civilization. No matter how many we killed back then, we couldn't possibly find and kill them all.

[Terastas]

Why werewolves being their own species makes it so that werewolves wont be able survive at all?

War, famine, disease, ethnic cleansing, Spanish Inquisition -- somebody would have killed them off by now. It's possible that a small handful could have survived, but unless they could "recruit" normal humans into their numbers, they would be severely inbred by now.

The fact is the ideas of werewolves being still relatively human, and being their own separate race. Makes no difference between them on how successful they are. They both mate with other werewolves and bite humans to grow their numbers. Also transform into wolves or humans to hide from us.

That goes right back to defining werewolves as altered humans. I agree that werewolves could have once had their own unique culture, but the only way I think they could have survived up until the 21st century anywhere on the planet (not just Europe -- Asia, Africa and the Americas had their fair share of war and disease too) would be if they could pass it on to others. That would only figuratively make werewolves a separate species because, though they may no longer feel human anymore, the fact is that they still are humans.

The laws of nature get rewritten daily, but absolute species changes only happen to Neopets.

[Kirk Hammett]

Everytime I write a story, my werewolves are a seperate species. But, they cannot pass it on to humans via bite. They're only hereditary. I should also note that they cannot breed with humans. But I also have curse werewolves if you like to call it that (bite transmission), I have a lot of different species and types of shape shifter in my book (And not just wolves )...but to me, they are and always will be a different species, no matter what type.

But, how do you define species? The age old argument of species appears yet again. It depends in your book whether a werewolf can breed successfully with a human, and how many genes have to be similar...in my opinion, breeding or not, they are different.

When bitten, they become another species.

But that's just my stories

[Scott Gardener]

It's a debate that I think would come up were werewolves to exist, and in a few centuries, perhaps even by the end of this one, a similar debate might come up from forthcoming technology and real species, even if it's moss being changed to fluorescent moss.

While the argument that werewolves are still human is probably the one that would prevail (in my storyline it does for the first fifty years or so, in part because of the broader scientific community, but also for political reasons), there's also an argument that lycanthropy would be not only a new species but a new type of species.

Followers of transhumanism believe that the next step of human evolution is outside of the species framework. Genetic engineering, cybernetics, and ultimately transfer of consciousness outside a physical body could some day render obsolete many aspects of life familiar to us today. Werewolves would be a fairly rudamentary example of a post-human organism. I say rudamentary because a werewolf would still deal with a lot of human issues, like sex, food, and dying of old age.

[RedEye]

As their own species: Let's use the Chimpanzee as the determinator.
Chimps are the Human's closest living relative, sharing nearly 95% of genetic material with us, although some sources say 97%, and some say 94%; I'll take 95% because it's easy to use.
If a Werewolf, after Crossing Over, still has more than 95% Human DNA, then the Were' is a mutated Human, and not a separate species.
If that Werewolf has less than 95% Human DNA after Crossing (The Bite and the resulting changes) then they are their own species.
Cross-fertility is possible with Mules (sterile cross-breeds) as a result.
Yes, it is possible, genetically, for one species to become another (we're an example).
This seems to be the most simple way of settling the question. Genetics.
Now, as to how you get a genetic sample from a Werewolf, unless the Were' is as curious as you are--you're on your own.

[MoonKit]

Hey hey hey. Just because we havent found creatures that shapeshift or can become invisible doesnt mean they dont exist. They just arent common. Science ets uprooted all the time with new discoveries that make everything they once said completly wrong. People used to believe the universe evolved around the earth you know.

Okay, then. Show me a werewolf or similar creature and I'll recant.

I'm waiting.



The world and life in general just aren't cool enough for the existence of supernatural creatures, that's why we make them up. The moment someone shows me a werewolf or faerie or vampire or dragon, I'll have no problem at all believing they exist.

Well then I guess I shouldnt bring up therians and otherkin.

[Baphnedia]

Now, this is why I usually just write and let others put up with my writing. What I can tell from this thread are that there are several contexts running amok:
- Historical reality
- Biological plausibility
- Therian/Otherkin
- Suspension of disbelief (for good fantasy)
- others as well?

That, moonkit, is why I think you just said your comment about the futility of the thread (with a group of therians). :p

[Scott Gardener]

With therianthropy, there's no debate; we're human. Wishing and believing doesn't in and of itself rewrite our DNA.

Biological plausibility is debatable, but even if you don't believe werewolves per se are possible, the theory of the debate isn't over, because it's highly probable that a more mundane version of the same principle--a genetic modification that changes a species member, that's both inherited by subsequent generations and passed on in a virus-like manner--can exist in one form or another, even if it's yeast buds modified to produce human insulin.

[Kzinistzerg]

Mmmmm... Actually, all you would need to do would be to write the introns as exons and make them useful DNA. Afaik, much of human DNA is merely junk; leftovers from previous genes no longer used, random duplicates pf genes, 'white noise', and so forth. Even with the discovery of more DNA being actively used, much of is is just junked. As such you don't need more DNA, just less worthless DNA.

It would make sense to have a different species. But even so that does not deal with the more pressing problem of How The Hell Are They Doing This Anyway?

[Baphnedia]

That is a more impressive problem, but your post points out something that reminded me of either Goldenwolf or of Jakkal - as one of them observed the following: (paraphrases)

Irregardless of anything else - at the end of the day you still share 25% of the same DNA as a banana.

[Silver]

I LIKE werewolves as mutated humans. The idea of a kinship to the humans that you must hide from has a pathos that I love. I see them as the trus Alphas that choose to live among their less gifted brotheren. There is a journey to take as one learns to adjust to the new abilities, the new life. The ties to the humans who fear them and don't understand them lands a nice irony.

It could go either way I guess....but I just like the connection. There's something romantic in the metamorphasis....the fear of the change, the adjustment to the fact that you're not who you were. The learning curve as the new personal powers, and social limitations are realized. Seeing friends and family from the outside - from the freeer, more isolated point of view. See them as youner brothers and sisters who have yet to leave home and experience the real world.

And the slow drifting away. beyond, what once was. The knowledge of the world as an entirely different place than what was once perceived. A were who's been one for a couple of years, must look back on themselves and see a sheltered, limited, somwhat undeveloped beginning to what they have become. They might have unpleasant memories of their 'pre-birth' life, and watch if fondly as they grow past it.

There's poetry in all that. Not science, but definitely poetry.

[Figarou]

I LIKE werewolves as mutated humans. The idea of a kinship to the humans that you must hide from has a pathos that I love. I see them as the trus Alphas that choose to live among their less gifted brotheren. There is a journey to take as one learns to adjust to the new abilities, the new life. The ties to the humans who fear them and don't understand them lands a nice irony.

It could go either way I guess....but I just like the connection. There's something romantic in the metamorphasis....the fear of the change, the adjustment to the fact that you're not who you were. The learning curve as the new personal powers, and social limitations are realized. Seeing friends and family from the outside - from the freeer, more isolated point of view. See them as youner brothers and sisters who have yet to leave home and experience the real world.

And the slow drifting away. beyond, what once was. The knowledge of the world as an entirely different place than what was once perceived. A were who's been one for a couple of years, must look back on themselves and see a sheltered, limited, somwhat undeveloped beginning to what they have become. They might have unpleasant memories of their 'pre-birth' life, and watch if fondly as they grow past it.

There's poetry in all that. Not science, but definitely poetry.

Ooooo.....I like the sound of that.

[Midnight]

Me too... It adds a sort of extra dimension to every werewolf story, to have that sort of internal, personal journey as well as the usual drama and adventure. I also like the idea of the werewolf, looking back on life before being bitten, as if it is some sort of adolescence of the spirit.