Why I think FREEBORN has had enough fan input.

[MattSullivan]

This is bound to cause much anger and gnashing of teeth. So bear with me.

I'm as excited as anyone else about Freeborn. I want to see it made and do well. But when you're an artist like Anthony, myself, or Joshua Roberts, ( or anyone who has in mind their own vision for a good werewolf story ) you pretty much have to make a movie that YOU want to see, and hope to God other people like it enough as well.

That said, I'm starting to worry about all this discussion of what a werewolf should "be" Do you think there's too MUCh input, and do you think it'll affect FREEBORN in a negative way? I know Anthony, and he seems to have a pretty clear vision of what he wants.

We werewolf fans seem to be the most vocal when it comes to getting or seeing what we consider to be "a good werewolf film" Unfortunatly, for some people, that doesn't mean having a good character driven story. For some it means having the "best transformation possible" and I worry they are narrowing the focus, and missing out on a bigger picture. And on top of that is the overwhelming anti-establishment attitude that "no one listens to us"

Dunno why I thought of this. Am I crazy? Anyone else thinking the same way I am?

[Teh_DarkJokerWolf]

This is bound to cause much anger and gnashing of teeth. So bear with me.

I'm as excited as anyone else about Freeborn. I want to see it made and do well. But when you're an artist like Anthony, myself, or Joshua Roberts, ( or anyone who has in mind their own vision for a good werewolf story ) you pretty much have to make a movie that YOU want to see, and hope to God other people like it enough as well.

That said, I'm starting to worry about all this discussion of what a werewolf should "be" Do you think there's too MUCh input, and do you think it'll affect FREEBORN in a negative way? I know Anthony, and he seems to have a pretty clear vision of what he wants.

We werewolf fans seem to be the most vocal when it comes to getting or seeing what we consider to be "a good werewolf film" Unfortunatly, for some people, that doesn't mean having a good character driven story. For some it means having the "best transformation possible" and I worry they are narrowing the focus, and missing out on a bigger picture. And on top of that is the overwhelming anti-establishment attitude that "no one listens to us"

Dunno why I thought of this. Am I crazy? Anyone else thinking the same way I am?

I dunno about this one here..I Don't think AB is just trying to get only fans. It's more than that as I'm sure you know. I mean with your CL movie are you not trying to get eyes on your work as well? The way I see it soon we'll be asking you the same exact question..With Freeborn we have seen an heard may things as far as progress. There is no release date no, as well as with CL. There are still many people out there that don't know about FreeBorn. The word will keep spreading even after this thread, because as fans of this movie an werewolf lovers we want to see this happen..I kinda think your downing FreeBorn a bit..Like I said once your work gets out there this same question will come up with your movie..There is never enough fans. Everyone needs support as well as you with CL...I totally support both your efforts. Both of you are putting plenty of work into your creations as you should..I think getting input from folks is a wonderful idea an with that being said alot of people do have their idea of how a werewolf should be..No one's the same. No one's idea will be used. It's the fact that people are supporting the idea an your work that keeps one working on their minds set.


I personally believe it should be more wide spread an it is already. You yourself want to get word out about your movie as I remember the thread you made in your section "Bringing attention to CL, via an e-mail campaign?" It would seem you want the same, so I am rather confused by this thread you've made

[TakeWalker]

*ahem* FREEBORN HAD TOO MUCH INPUT TWO YEARS AGO.

Seriously. I joined this board in late November 2004, and after about four or five months, we had covered every minor detail of werewolves relevant to creating a movie. Ever since then, it's just been hashing and rehashing things that are so minor they would be impossible to even mention on screen. So yeah, I firmly believe that we're way past the scope of any possible movie and into the realm of just being a werewolf fans board. Which, quite honestly, I don't care all that much about. Not as much as the rest of you, anyway.

[Fullmoonstar]

[MattSullivan]

I hear you about the cl mail campaign, but if you'd read the last few posts, youd have seen that the idea was getting less and less relevant to me, and that I was going back to the plain ol' pitch method. The impulse to do a mail campaign was a whim, nothing more, and it cam e from the whole Sony "legal issues" debacle.

But as for freeborn, i just wonder if, like you said, some ideas are getting re-hashed. I noticed that myself. Also, when you allow too much input from others, it starts to become less your own project, and gives some people cause to say "Oh, i helped create that movie" when all they really did was give opinions.

[White Paw]

I hear you about the cl mail campaign, but if you'd read the last few posts, youd have seen that the idea was getting less and less relevant to me, and that I was going back to the plain ol' pitch method. The impulse to do a mail campaign was a whim, nothing more, and it cam e from the whole Sony "legal issues" debacle.

But as for freeborn, i just wonder if, like you said, some ideas are getting re-hashed. I noticed that myself. Also, when you allow too much input from others, it starts to become less your own project, and gives some people cause to say "Oh, i helped create that movie" when all they really did was give opinions.

well the "re-hashing" is all good for the noobs....

[Shadow Wulf]

Well Anthony already stop taking werewolf ideas from the What sould a werewolf be section along time ago. So I dont see much harm for it. Except that it does get repetetive for people to be lazy and talk about something that we completly covered which is why I'm not as active in that section than I use to.

[Midnight]

Personally I get the impression from the news about the film that "Freeborn" has moved well beyond the "fan input" stage.

But isn't this the whole point behind The Pack becoming an entity in its own right without necessarily being tied to the fate of "Freeborn"? Basically, we've got bucketloads of comment and opinion in the "what we want a werewolf to be" forum... and it's there for anyone else who's thinking of making a werewolf film to pick up and run with. On the subject of "too much input"... I trust Anthony to listen to the fans as much as he wants to, and then make his own decision that best fits the story. After all this is movie making, not maths... there is more than one "right answer".

And apart from anything else, noobs like me might feel a bit left out if we can't at least add our two cents' worth to the "what do we want to see in a werewolf movie" type topics (it's hard enough trying to think of something that hasn't been said before as it is...)

[Kaebora]

The main focus of any story should always be one thing. Conflict.

Without a good focus on conflict, any movie can be bad. That's Anthony's job to create appropriate conflicts for the characters. We merely gave him a means to iron out those details that other WW films ignore. In my opinion, if you want a great transformation scene, and great looking werewolves, it shouldn't be overdone to the point that it detracts from the story, or takes up too much precious filming time. I want to see beleiveable characters, both in and out of WW form. If the special effects turn out to be the only thing good about the film, there's a problem. From reading the script, I can trust Anthony will give the characters the life, interactions, and conflict they need to be beleiveable.

For the film "Freeborn", the input session is pritty much over. For the sequel... almost. For werewolf movies in the distant future... we still have an opportunity to save them from releasing a disaster. I feel that "Freeborn" will become a benchmark for werewolf movies of the future, so maybe our work here is done. Who knows?

[Vuldari]

MattSullivan ...I know exactly what you are saying. There are too many cooks in the kitchen, and we can't just keep debating about Freeborn up until the day it comes out. Sooner or later, Anthony and Silver and the rest really need to stop listening to suggestions, make up their minds and stick with it they way THEY want to do it.
(which, inspired by chatting with us for the past few years, has come to be pretty close to how the rest of us would like it as well)

Also...this reminds me of part of the reason why Silver and I ended up at odds against each other. ...the "What should a Werewolf be?" section...

What I have come to feel is, that question as it is phrased is not fully relevant any more. Might I recommend changing it to "What COULD a Werewolf be?" or some other more open-ended hypothetical question or statement?

It's long past time for the 'Freeborn' werewolves to be finalized and decided upon...not debated over any more.

However...just because the decisions about what ONE set of werewolves will be like are done and made, does not mean any of us should stop pondering other possibilities. No need to maintain the mindset that there can only be ONE "Ultimate Werewolf"...let the newbies start all the discussions over again from the beginning and maybe come to completely different conclusions than WE did, and the rest of us think about OTHER ways to interpret the characters/legends/creatures.

For example [shameless plug] in my planned, upcoming comic series "Pack MENTAL(ity)", there will be not only different Were-Animals, but several different kinds of Werewolves as well, inspired by different legends, movies, styles, etc. [/shameless plug] so I don't see any reason why anyone else should be tied down to just one either.



...but yeah, anyway, back on topic...


We've all been messing around with the recipe for this film long enough (over TWO YEARS)...it's time to step back, let the Freeborn crew toss all these ingredients into the bowl, mix them up, let them bake and see what comes out of the oven.


*Calls 'Dibs' on licking the spoon*

[Shadow Wulf]

*Calls 'Dibs' on licking the spoon*

Oh No you dont!! *fights Vuldari over spoon*

[Figarou]

Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Spoon boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.


Scene from The Matrix.

[Teh_DarkJokerWolf]

Back on the subject folks


I guess I can sorta understand wat Matt is trying to get at. I haven't really had much say in how the werewolf should look, but I do know I want a tail..Bottom line. I want it to just look good an a good story fer crying out loud. I think AB an Silver know that much so yeah backing off might not be a bad idea, but we can still spread word about it without real harm I sappose..

[Kirk Hammett]

I think the What Should a Werewolf Be section is just a discussion board now, it's not anything to do with the film anymore.

Also, things like promotional posters and merchandise is just a way to get the word out. I see no harm, as long as people aren't claiming absolute superiority over others, which I don't see happening. (Yet...and I doubt we will see it). And everything should be approved by Anthony. He approved my poster idea, and I will be asking him more about it later, and won't be putting any up for a while. They are just to bring awareness because it's a small chance it'll come to Australia. (But I'm getting Pack members to make posters and I've got a few already.

I do know what you mean to say about the werewolf section. Like Sabre, my only real concern is that the werewolf has a nice bushy tail, but I doubt anyone here has any fantasies about what they want being used...I don't really care what the wolf looks like in the long run (I don't even care a bunch if it's tailess, it'd just be nice for it to have one), I just want to see another werewolf film.

But it is true that a lot of people seemed to go a little overboard with discussions, but while this is true (A lot of science that even me, a Biology student, has to get my head around!) I doubt anybody really thought Anthony was going to include the metabolic rate and physiology of a werewolf in his film.

I think people do it for fun

I AM SO HUNGRY

[Fenrir]

Are you saying that if you were to join the forum today that your imput would be better if it did not matter?

[JoshuaMadoc]

The main focus of any story should always be one thing. Conflict.

Without a good focus on conflict, any movie can be bad. That's Anthony's job to create appropriate conflicts for the characters. We merely gave him a means to iron out those details that other WW films ignore.

Uh... I don't wanna sound like an a**, but from the way you worded it, "conflict" is exactly the thing that's killed recent movies. Do you notice how almost EVERY movie, including really funnyarse comedy movies, have the part where they get into an argument, and then make up in sometimes predictably inexplicable ways?

To me, that's a VERY steep rise and fall of story atmosphere that can be compared to a huge wall that i have to headbutt through to stomach everything else in HollyPot movies. And its frequency of appearance has... well, because of that, i tend to lean over to more obscure movies that use the same thing, but not so much americanized.

The bottom line is: conflict is a good spice for the soup of storylines, but PLEASE don't say that canned HollyCrack conflict soup is the only answer.

[lupine]

Surely Anthony has had a basic vision of what kind of movie he wanted to make, from the outset.

I mean, at the end of the day, he set this site up to get werewolf fans ideas and input. To listen to what THEY thought would make a good werewolf movie. I'm sure that after all this time, and with the screenplay written, he has, by now, decided pretty much on how things are gonna be. Things like general appearance of the werewolf may be pencilled in, but may alter or develop as the production gets rolling properly, as practical solutions to special effects could influence how a beastie might move, or look. for an example of this check this thread...http://www.thepacksden.com/thepackboard ... 306#129306

It just goes to show how, even this far in, things are still up for discussion.

[Vuldari]

Are you saying that if you were to join the forum today that your imput would be better if it did not matter?

...once again...sooner or later the movie actually needs to get made. What about the people who join after the premier? You can't just keep putting it off forever.

However, the filming and release of "Freeborn" need not be seen as THE END of the influence of the opinions shared here in the Pack forums.

Anyones ideas, that appear any time (before or after the movie) could potentially end up in a future Novel, Movie, Comic Book, TV series, Videogame or who knows what somewhere later down the line. Werewolf fans from all around the world are coming here to have conversations relating to the topic of Lycanthropy and related/similar concepts.

...who knows who might be reading and listening.

Let's not forget the fact that Numerous other parties interested in making werewolf Movies have already appeared here, (some of which even earned their own sections on the forum), and that there is no reason to think or assume that those we have seen are the last. Sure...maybe not all of them will see the light of day, but let's not assume that "Freeborn" is going to be the only Pack inspired project that will ever appear on the big Silver Screen.

[Aki]

Freeborn had enough fan input loooong ago. Which is why this place has evolved into "The Pack" and isn't just a Freeborn forum. I think the "What Should a Werewolf Be" board has become more a general "What The Pack things a Werewolf should Be" board.

[Scott Gardener]

Brownrigg and Silver have already established that they're having final say, and that the movie belongs ultimately to them, and not a committee. So, I think we're safe. Still, I do think they look back here for insight on developing the world setting and fine-tuning details.

[Fenrir]

Are you saying that if you were to join the forum today that your imput would be better if it did not matter?

...once again...sooner or later the movie actually needs to get made. What about the people who join after the premier? You can't just keep putting it off forever.

However, the filming and release of "Freeborn" need not be seen as THE END of the influence of the opinions shared here in the Pack forums.

Anyones ideas, that appear any time (before or after the movie) could potentially end up in a future Novel, Movie, Comic Book, TV series, Videogame or who knows what somewhere later down the line. Werewolf fans from all around the world are coming here to have conversations relating to the topic of Lycanthropy and related/similar concepts.

...who knows who might be reading and listening.

Let's not forget the fact that Numerous other parties interested in making werewolf Movies have already appeared here, (some of which even earned their own sections on the forum), and that there is no reason to think or assume that those we have seen are the last. Sure...maybe not all of them will see the light of day, but let's not assume that "Freeborn" is going to be the only Pack inspired project that will ever appear on the big Silver Screen.

It just seems to me that your worried the more people there are the less and less your oppinion will mater, I'am not trying to be mean, and maybe i'am misinterpreting, but it sounds like both you and Matt though you make a valid point that the movie Has to eventually be made, but it sounds like your trying to keep your view more important, and are worried that new people might taint your vision.

Of course I understand that it's most likely you're just trying to finalize this and get the movie made we've been waiting for three years

[Lupin]

The main focus of any story should always be one thing. Conflict.

Without a good focus on conflict, any movie can be bad. That's Anthony's job to create appropriate conflicts for the characters. We merely gave him a means to iron out those details that other WW films ignore.

Uh... I don't wanna sound like an a**, but from the way you worded it, "conflict" is exactly the thing that's killed recent movies. Do you notice how almost EVERY movie, including really funnyarse comedy movies, have the part where they get into an argument, and then make up in sometimes predictably inexplicable ways?

To me, that's a VERY steep rise and fall of story atmosphere that can be compared to a huge wall that i have to headbutt through to stomach everything else in HollyPot movies. And its frequency of appearance has... well, because of that, i tend to lean over to more obscure movies that use the same thing, but not so much americanized.

The bottom line is: conflict is a good spice for the soup of storylines, but PLEASE don't say that canned HollyCrack conflict soup is the only answer.

Conflict is the force that drives the plot. You can have a story without any conflict, but it would be boring:

I woke up, went to McDonalds, ordered a sandwich, then came back home. After that I went into work, typed at my computer for two hours, and then went on break. I returned and continuted to type at my computer some more, occasionally switching to my personal laptop to check something, and going down the hall to check the servers in the closet.
After that it was about 12:30, so I decided it was time for lunch. I left the building, walked down the road, checked my mailbox, and then got some pizza. After that there was several more hours of typing on the computer, a 15-minute meeting, and I went home

Without conflict, you don't have a story, just a laundry list of actions.

[Kaebora]

Right you are Lupin. They're just misinterpreting what the definition "Conflict" is. It can be confused with "confrontation". Conflict is everything that happens in a story to push it forward. If there is no conflict, there is no change in the story. That leaves the characters in the same place they started. Rather boring.

[MattSullivan]

good point kaebra. Conflict is key to any good story along with great character driven storylines. Characters you really like..or would like to be in real life...

[Vuldari]

Are you saying that if you were to join the forum today that your imput would be better if it did not matter?

...once again...sooner or later the movie actually needs to get made. What about the people who join after the premier? You can't just keep putting it off forever.

However, the filming and release of "Freeborn" need not be seen as THE END of the influence of the opinions shared here in the Pack forums.

Anyones ideas, that appear any time (before or after the movie) could potentially end up in a future Novel, Movie, Comic Book, TV series, Videogame or who knows what somewhere later down the line. Werewolf fans from all around the world are coming here to have conversations relating to the topic of Lycanthropy and related/similar concepts.

...who knows who might be reading and listening.

Let's not forget the fact that Numerous other parties interested in making werewolf Movies have already appeared here, (some of which even earned their own sections on the forum), and that there is no reason to think or assume that those we have seen are the last. Sure...maybe not all of them will see the light of day, but let's not assume that "Freeborn" is going to be the only Pack inspired project that will ever appear on the big Silver Screen.

It just seems to me that your worried the more people there are the less and less your oppinion will mater, I'am not trying to be mean, and maybe i'am misinterpreting, but it sounds like both you and Matt though you make a valid point that the movie Has to eventually be made, but it sounds like your trying to keep your view more important, and are worried that new people might taint your vision.

Of course I understand that it's most likely you're just trying to finalize this and get the movie made we've been waiting for three years

Hunh?

...what on earth are you talking about? "MY" vision? Freeborn is not MY film...I'm not making it...I didn't write the script.

For all my debating and ranting and whatnot I've done here since 2004, Freeborn is not being designed around "MY vision" ...it is not now, nor has it ever been.

If it Was, the screenplay would have been VERY different. ...but it's not my movie, so it's not my call...

...I have no more idea or influence on what anything is going to be like than you do.


...but if we are going to start playing the "Reading between the lines" game...it seems to me that you are somewhat desperate to insist that Anthony and Silver keep taking more suggestions...possibly because there is something specific you want them to change, because you are not happy with how you think it is going? ...perhaps you are hoping a bunch more people will join and then agree with you so that thing (whatever it is) will change before Anthony starts filming?



I just want them to start making this movie, WHATEVER it is going to be...nothing is ever going to happen if they refuse to make any final decisions so fans can keep begging them to change their minds. If they want to change something themselves...let them...that's their call.

The WHOLE film is their call...we will just get to enjoy it, whatever THEY choose to make of it. ...but only if we stop bickering about it and let them do it...