Vuldari, I think I at least get what you're going after. I fear attempting a paraphrase may excerbate the situation, so please take my statement at face value.
That being said, I'm not exactly a fan of that sort of story. Well, to be more precise, I always hate transformation tales -- and you see this in anime now and again -- where a character slowly loses their humanity to some other thing that takes control of them, especially when there's nothing they can do to stop it. With werewolves it's different, of course, it's not a one-way street. Even the weakest-willed werewolf will eventually return to a human form, regaining that sliver of humanity that anchors them in reality. I don't think a werewolf could stay transformed forever, though that of course depends on the mythos at work.
I do agree that, even if nothing comes of it, that internal struggle, written and portrayed properly, will add excitement and conflict, the hallmark of plot, to any slice-of-life story, even if nothing comes of it.
Werewolves...Pitiful? *Rant*
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TakeWalker
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I do agree with kirk.
I do like werewolves having claws, fangs and can rip the throat out of anyone who pushes them past a point. And he's right, some werewolf movies are hard to watch. (Cursed: the "werewolves" looked like over grown bears to me.)
In truth, the only thing i want, is for werewolves to repsected, both for their power, and that they are not just killing machines. They can be, and i like that about them. But too many of the movies i've seen portray them as evil creatures that deserve death. That's what i don't like about the movie version of the werewolf. That's what i'm trying to avoid with my stories: Gore Feast # i have no idea. I want my werewolves to defend themselves, just not have a lot of fun doing it. (IF they have fun, fine by me.)
It's a difference in what we think werewolves should be, i guess. Still, i do like a movie where the werewolf doesn't die, and those who would kill it do.
Have they made one of those yet?
I do like werewolves having claws, fangs and can rip the throat out of anyone who pushes them past a point. And he's right, some werewolf movies are hard to watch. (Cursed: the "werewolves" looked like over grown bears to me.)
In truth, the only thing i want, is for werewolves to repsected, both for their power, and that they are not just killing machines. They can be, and i like that about them. But too many of the movies i've seen portray them as evil creatures that deserve death. That's what i don't like about the movie version of the werewolf. That's what i'm trying to avoid with my stories: Gore Feast # i have no idea. I want my werewolves to defend themselves, just not have a lot of fun doing it. (IF they have fun, fine by me.)
It's a difference in what we think werewolves should be, i guess. Still, i do like a movie where the werewolf doesn't die, and those who would kill it do.
Have they made one of those yet?
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Figarou
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I understand this whole werewolf story concept and what each individual wants in a werewolf and story line.
But what if a writer of a story/film knows that young children will be watching it? Or he/she wants a wide audience instead of a small one? Would he/she add a scene where a werewolf rips someone apart? Or make the werewolf really scary to frighten the young viewers? If he/she wants the film to be viewed by all....probably not.
The werewolves in Van Helsing wasn't all that scary. It wasn't gory as well. It was a fun film to watch. Not everyone liked that film because those scary/gory elements was missing. An adult werewolf fan might get pissed off at how weak the werewolves are in that type of film.
The creation of my werewolf character was aimed at young children. I know some adults here find it rather dumb to see a werewolf attack others by tossing duckies at them instead of ripping them apart. Hey...I wanted something different. Something that people can laugh at and enjoy.
So...if werewolves are in a "G," "PG" rated movie, don't expect blood and gut ripping violence. They might behave in a way thats not suitable to a werewolf fan thats into gory scenes. You want violence? Look for that in an "R" rated film.
But what if a writer of a story/film knows that young children will be watching it? Or he/she wants a wide audience instead of a small one? Would he/she add a scene where a werewolf rips someone apart? Or make the werewolf really scary to frighten the young viewers? If he/she wants the film to be viewed by all....probably not.
The werewolves in Van Helsing wasn't all that scary. It wasn't gory as well. It was a fun film to watch. Not everyone liked that film because those scary/gory elements was missing. An adult werewolf fan might get pissed off at how weak the werewolves are in that type of film.
The creation of my werewolf character was aimed at young children. I know some adults here find it rather dumb to see a werewolf attack others by tossing duckies at them instead of ripping them apart. Hey...I wanted something different. Something that people can laugh at and enjoy.
So...if werewolves are in a "G," "PG" rated movie, don't expect blood and gut ripping violence. They might behave in a way thats not suitable to a werewolf fan thats into gory scenes. You want violence? Look for that in an "R" rated film.
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Vuldari
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If you have to be a GENIUS writer to make anything decent out of the character and the premise without the basic essentials of the medium or genre (like a "PLOT"), then it is totally unreasonable to discourage absolutely EVERYONE from using those tried and true cornerstones in their stories at all.kitetsu wrote:Set said it right: It's always about plot execution.
Take Densha Otoko, for example. Almost no plot, but it was executed so well that it became an instant hit, because of how the story went.
But whatever. What should a supertastically great story need that will appease all audiences instead of just one, anyway?
...because MOST people simply are not talented enough to pull off a genuinely good or entertaining story that has no plot, and no exiting events.
Be reasonable.
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Vuldari
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TakeWalker understands...Figarou wrote: But what if a writer of a story/film knows that young children will be watching it? Or he/she wants a wide audience instead of a small one? Would he/she add a scene where a werewolf rips someone apart? Or make the werewolf really scary to frighten the young viewers? If he/she wants the film to be viewed by all....probably not.
It is not necessarily that someone needs to be ripped to bloody ribbons for the story to be good...but that it is made clear though the way the story is told that the Werewolf is being forced to painfully struggle against his/her Lupine, "Law of the Jungle...Kill or Be Killed" instincts whenever a bad situation arises...that they are pushed to the very edge of their willpower on a, (infrequent, if they are careful), regular basis, and often come that close to completely SNAPPING and going 'Rampage'.TakeWalker wrote:I do agree that, even if nothing comes of it, that internal struggle, written and portrayed properly, will add excitement and conflict, the hallmark of plot, to any slice-of-life story, even if nothing comes of it.
Even if it never actually happens...it just doesn't feel like it would be a REAL werewolf story to me if there was never at least ONE of those moments where you are on the edge of your seat, realizing that the character is being pushed to their limit, as you lean out of your chair pleading to the book in your hand or the screen in front of you, under your breath, (as if somehow it would effect what happens next...we've all done it)...
"Nooo...nuh unh...Don't do it...don't...DON'T DO IT...oh no...NO...DON'T DO IT MAN!!!..."
It's that TENSION that I'm after...the EXCITEMENT...the Thrill of just not knowing what is going to happen...
THAT is what I am after...not blood, gore and guts. (I HATE Bloody Horror...but I LOVE a good thriller)
That moment just is not there if you know that they have enough control to just suck it in and resist...but if you know that they have broken under such pressure before, or almost did under considerably less, then there is a believably REAL possibility that this situation is probably going to turn VERY sour in a moment.
The thrill just isn't REAL if it not possible that they might actually rip someone a new one after all. ...and that requires a drive and instinct that is significantly OUT of their control.
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Ooooh, yah! You know Vuldari, you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if you had made that clearer in your first post (but then, I'm a terrible hypocrite, because I have a terrible time expressing myself accurately and concisely).
I know what you mean. One of the best books in the world, Les Miserables, is an in depth view of how Jean Valjean gradually learns to control his selfish impulses when they interfere with another's happiness. There are several instances where you're on the edge of your seat because he has to choose between something terrible but right and something that would bring him happiness but be wrong. Any good story has internal conflict as well as external, and the "mastering the inner beast" theme, or at least temporarily restraining it, is one prevalent within werewolf stories.
If I ever meet the man who invented spell check, I'm going to kiss him.
I know what you mean. One of the best books in the world, Les Miserables, is an in depth view of how Jean Valjean gradually learns to control his selfish impulses when they interfere with another's happiness. There are several instances where you're on the edge of your seat because he has to choose between something terrible but right and something that would bring him happiness but be wrong. Any good story has internal conflict as well as external, and the "mastering the inner beast" theme, or at least temporarily restraining it, is one prevalent within werewolf stories.
If I ever meet the man who invented spell check, I'm going to kiss him.
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Vuldari
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I thought I did...Kelpten wrote:Ooooh, yah! You know Vuldari, you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if you had made that clearer in your first post (but then, I'm a terrible hypocrite, because I have a terrible time expressing myself accurately and concisely).
...but it's rarely that easy to know exactly which words to use in order to make others understand the message you are trying to get across.
Plus...I was kinda pissed at the time when I was typing it ... thus why I labeled it a *Rant* ... and one rarely phrases themself in the most ideal manner when speaking, (or typing) mad.
Since no Werewolf movies prior to now (excluding maybe "Teen Wolf") have featured the werewolf as the HERO of the story, such moments are usually more like...
"No...don't kill Sandy...NOT SANDY!...RUN SANDY, RUUUUNNNN!!!!!!!!..."
...but the basic emotion is about the same.
I wouldn't really want to use previous werewolf movies as examples of my point though, since they all have basically SUCKED. (I think the original "Wolf Man" probably still has the best story out of all of them, even today.)
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I usually saw him as more of a WereNeanderthal with a darkened nose.Joey Liverwurst wrote:And he was really more of a wereyak.Vuldari wrote:Since no Werewolf movies prior to now (excluding maybe "Teen Wolf") have featured the werewolf as the HERO of the story,
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Scott Gardener
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I think what a lot of us are after isn't the actual reduction of werewolves into a cult furry society, but the struggle between here and there. There are (in our stories and minds, anyway) monster werewolves, and there are a larger number of werewolves who are people, who would love to shout to the world what they are, but cannot. Yes, this can degenerate easily into faux angsty "woe is me, for I'm cursed with being really cool and powerful," but good writing and well-placed plot-devices can help stave this off.
In my own stories, I focus first on characters on the run, and then on the complexities of the world's reaction when werewolves reveal themselves. The transition from feared mythical monster to another element of society becomes a long and convoluted one, raising a lot of philosophical issues. It's the perfect plot tool to mark the transition between contemporary socail values and those of a transhumanist society a hundred years from now. Later on, werewolves do admittedly become just another thing, but by that time period, the storyline has become more science fiction, with plenty of other out-there issues and ramifications. I've got several time periods in the mean time to play with--the eighties and nineties, when werewolves are monster myths; today, when werewolf sightings and Internet cult phenomena are starting to brew; The 2010s and 2020s, when major social upheavals lead to violence and riots that make the sixties look like the complacency of 1997, when Clinton's thing with Monika Lewensky brought more media attention than did a meteor threatening to vanquish life on Earth; the 2030s and 2040s, when lycanthropy has become generational and is more a metaphor for contemporary social issues such as homosexual marriage rights; the catastrophic events of 2065 that bring civilization for six months to a screeching halt, as the things that made werewolves abduct humans and return them as all kinds of spooky monsters lurking in the woods--a venue for horror I've so far barely had a chance to use; and the aftermath as humanity rebuilds over the next decade.
It boils down to what you do with it. You can make the monster werewolf really cool or really lame; you can use it to death, the way Hollywood has, until we're screaming for something else. Likewise, we can take the sympathetic werewolf concept and make it fantastic, like the concept script for Camp Lycanthrope, or make it just as trite and over-used, as fandom may be at risk of doing. The trick is to innovate, and not keep writing the same story over and over.
In my own stories, I focus first on characters on the run, and then on the complexities of the world's reaction when werewolves reveal themselves. The transition from feared mythical monster to another element of society becomes a long and convoluted one, raising a lot of philosophical issues. It's the perfect plot tool to mark the transition between contemporary socail values and those of a transhumanist society a hundred years from now. Later on, werewolves do admittedly become just another thing, but by that time period, the storyline has become more science fiction, with plenty of other out-there issues and ramifications. I've got several time periods in the mean time to play with--the eighties and nineties, when werewolves are monster myths; today, when werewolf sightings and Internet cult phenomena are starting to brew; The 2010s and 2020s, when major social upheavals lead to violence and riots that make the sixties look like the complacency of 1997, when Clinton's thing with Monika Lewensky brought more media attention than did a meteor threatening to vanquish life on Earth; the 2030s and 2040s, when lycanthropy has become generational and is more a metaphor for contemporary social issues such as homosexual marriage rights; the catastrophic events of 2065 that bring civilization for six months to a screeching halt, as the things that made werewolves abduct humans and return them as all kinds of spooky monsters lurking in the woods--a venue for horror I've so far barely had a chance to use; and the aftermath as humanity rebuilds over the next decade.
It boils down to what you do with it. You can make the monster werewolf really cool or really lame; you can use it to death, the way Hollywood has, until we're screaming for something else. Likewise, we can take the sympathetic werewolf concept and make it fantastic, like the concept script for Camp Lycanthrope, or make it just as trite and over-used, as fandom may be at risk of doing. The trick is to innovate, and not keep writing the same story over and over.
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...
You misinterpredte what I said. I just said that they would try to stop themselves from changing out of anger. I didn't say that they would always succeed.Vuldari wrote:The entire point of this thread has been that, I am frustrated and annoyed with how people keep trying to make things easier on werewolves, taking away all of the things that would make their life difficult, excluding only social discrimination, (which obviously no one could do anything about), and turning them into pansies who are able to, and so just choose to never let the WOLF out at inconvenient moments, and likewise just end up looking like cowards, social butterflies, or just boring.Dreamer wrote:okay, why was that a stupid thing I just said? And no, that question isn't rehtorical. Or was I just repeating your idea without knowing it?
Seriously though, I actually am totally for anger driven transformations. But, I still agree with KirkHammet's and LightPaw's conceptions of weres more than yours.XIV
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WerewolfKeeper3
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Okay,
(Hold up. Didn't you say...?)
Yeah, i did.
(Well?)
I'm going, i'm going.
(Finally. Anyway, i finally get what you're talking about, Vuldari. You want the thrill of the werewolf legend, without the gore we find in the movies. I apologize, but i'm going back to the bumbling idiots story line. (The other voice) In his stories, he has chracters who have lost it before, who have almost snapped and become berserkers, in a sense. I really don't think that the werewolf legend, myth, story whatever, will lose that excitement. It just seems right to have a creature that fights with itself, (Athough aren't humans the same in that regard. Not going into that.) and doesn't always have complete control over its primal urges. Here i go again, seeing as his stories are my best example of what i peronally think might be true, as pathetic as that is, the primal urges he explores are more motivated by what their environment produces in them, vs. what nature has given them. I think everyone finds that there is something in the unexpected way a werewolf's nature can be that defers directly to them. What i mean is, even is someone takes away part of that unknown, uncontroled power, there will always something equally as mysterious to replace it. Werewolves just can't be boring, can they? No matter how their written, their still unbelieveablely themselves, right?)
You are better at this than me.
(You'd better believe it, american furless.)
I've got one word for you: Mutt.
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As you wish.
(Hold up. Didn't you say...?)
Yeah, i did.
(Well?)
I'm going, i'm going.
(Finally. Anyway, i finally get what you're talking about, Vuldari. You want the thrill of the werewolf legend, without the gore we find in the movies. I apologize, but i'm going back to the bumbling idiots story line. (The other voice) In his stories, he has chracters who have lost it before, who have almost snapped and become berserkers, in a sense. I really don't think that the werewolf legend, myth, story whatever, will lose that excitement. It just seems right to have a creature that fights with itself, (Athough aren't humans the same in that regard. Not going into that.) and doesn't always have complete control over its primal urges. Here i go again, seeing as his stories are my best example of what i peronally think might be true, as pathetic as that is, the primal urges he explores are more motivated by what their environment produces in them, vs. what nature has given them. I think everyone finds that there is something in the unexpected way a werewolf's nature can be that defers directly to them. What i mean is, even is someone takes away part of that unknown, uncontroled power, there will always something equally as mysterious to replace it. Werewolves just can't be boring, can they? No matter how their written, their still unbelieveablely themselves, right?)
You are better at this than me.
(You'd better believe it, american furless.)
I've got one word for you: Mutt.
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As you wish.
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TakeWalker
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So, Vuldy, ol' buddy, ol' pal, now that we're on the same page, riddle me this:
Is is then possible to fall into a completely different extreme and end up with a weepy, whiny werewolf who lives in a state of constant paranoid fear that his "beast" will get free? Is that too much? And do you think most of that fearful apprehension ought to be experienced by the audience, more than by the character?
Is is then possible to fall into a completely different extreme and end up with a weepy, whiny werewolf who lives in a state of constant paranoid fear that his "beast" will get free? Is that too much? And do you think most of that fearful apprehension ought to be experienced by the audience, more than by the character?
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I might be really drunk right now (And my drunk brother just hugged me, I'm really stoked because well he showed me some love for the first time in over a decade 
)
But my view is that I think maybe we are misreading each other.
I can't remember my point. My apologies.
) But my view is that I think maybe we are misreading each other.
I can't remember my point. My apologies.
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cumulusprotagonist
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Realalisticly it could not be easy to undergoe a change such as lycanthropy and many people might crack under the stress...Whether or not this crack would involve a violent rampage or not I do not know.
You would have to be an expert on human phsycology and wolf phsycology to determine the most realistic outcome. Actually for the most realistic outcome you would need the opinions of more than one expert. You may also need experts on the biology of the brain concerning the physical transformative affects on the different areas of the brain.
You would have to be an expert on human phsycology and wolf phsycology to determine the most realistic outcome. Actually for the most realistic outcome you would need the opinions of more than one expert. You may also need experts on the biology of the brain concerning the physical transformative affects on the different areas of the brain.
Last edited by cumulusprotagonist on Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Maybe I am wrong...
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Kirk Hammett
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Science is only good when used sparingly in some stories. I find it bores readers, even when it might interest us in small quantaties.cumulusprotagonist wrote:Realalisticly it could not be easy to undergoe a change such as lycanthropy and many people might crack under the stress...Whether or not this crack would involve a violent rampag or not I do not know.
You would have to be an expert on human phsycology and wolf phsycology to determine the most realistic outcome. Actually for the most realistic outcome you would need the opinions of more than one expert. You may also need experts on the biology of the brain concerning the physical transformative affects on the different areas of the brain.
I still think it totally depends on your taste and the story but that is a good point! Suprised I can function right now after what I drank. Sorry if little makes sense.
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cumulusprotagonist
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You should not put the science in the story...
You should use the science to help you develop your characters.
The science is a tool for the writer to use.
Something that does not even show up in the story.
You should use the science to help you develop your characters.
The science is a tool for the writer to use.
Something that does not even show up in the story.
Maybe I am wrong...
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Kirk Hammett
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I very much agree.cumulusprotagonist wrote:You should not put the science in the story...
You should use the science to help you develop your characters.
The science is a tool for the writer to use.
Something that does not even show up in the story.
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Vuldari
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I just posted this in the "Alternative Shapeshifters" thread, but I think the pseudo-essay may be more appropriate to this discussion.
Werewolves as "MONSTERS"
Werewolves as "MONSTERS"
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Vuldari
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Actually...part of the idea is...if the person bottled themself up THAT MUCH, they would 'Snap'...TakeWalker wrote:So, Vuldy, ol' buddy, ol' pal, now that we're on the same page, riddle me this:
Is is then possible to fall into a completely different extreme and end up with a weepy, whiny werewolf who lives in a state of constant paranoid fear that his "beast" will get free? Is that too much? And do you think most of that fearful apprehension ought to be experienced by the audience, more than by the character?
Anyone not strong of will enough, or wise enough, or emotionally balanced enough to find ways to deal with themselves, would end up changing and going on rampages and Full Moon nights...basically, making their own fears a self-fulfilling prophecy.
So either you get an inspiring story about a very extraordinary person who has managed to just barely scrape by without submitting to fate... surely by creative and interesting means, and plenty of exiting close calls...
...or an action packed story about all the chaos the werewolf causes every time they loose control.
Either way...the story could not possibly be "Boring".
(Baring terrible writing, of course)
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Vuldari
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I'm sure we are.Kirk Hammett wrote:But my view is that I think maybe we are misreading each other.
That seems to happen alot around here...especially when I am involved. I tend to both be very confusing, and also very good at reading things between the lines of others messages that are not always really there.
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I get misread too, don't worryVuldari wrote:I'm sure we are.Kirk Hammett wrote:But my view is that I think maybe we are misreading each other.
That seems to happen alot around here...especially when I am involved. I tend to both be very confusing, and also very good at reading things between the lines of others messages that are not always really there.
sometimes people believe I am attacking them when I'm either making a joke or a statement...I'm not so good at expressing myself using words. I'm not aggressive so if it looks like I'm attacking anybody, generally, I am being misread.And you have opinions. You're allowed those opinions. Sometimes I think people get ruffled up over nothing. We all do. But it's good to minimise just taking words for face value (I'm sure every one of us, including me, have been a culprit of ruffling over nothing).
<b> Pack Drunk</b>
"Animals were not made for humans, not anymore than black people were made for whites or women for men" -Alice Walker-
"Animals were not made for humans, not anymore than black people were made for whites or women for men" -Alice Walker-
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JoshuaMadoc
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I'm never reasonable. Haven't you noticed that already?Vuldari wrote:If you have to be a GENIUS writer to make anything decent out of the character and the premise without the basic essentials of the medium or genre (like a "PLOT"), then it is totally unreasonable to discourage absolutely EVERYONE from using those tried and true cornerstones in their stories at all.
...because MOST people simply are not talented enough to pull off a genuinely good or entertaining story that has no plot, and no exiting events.
Be reasonable.
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TakeWalker
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A good point, and a better qualifier. ;)Vuldari wrote:Actually...part of the idea is...if the person bottled themself up THAT MUCH, they would 'Snap'...TakeWalker wrote:So, Vuldy, ol' buddy, ol' pal, now that we're on the same page, riddle me this:
Is is then possible to fall into a completely different extreme and end up with a weepy, whiny werewolf who lives in a state of constant paranoid fear that his "beast" will get free? Is that too much? And do you think most of that fearful apprehension ought to be experienced by the audience, more than by the character?
Anyone not strong of will enough, or wise enough, or emotionally balanced enough to find ways to deal with themselves, would end up changing and going on rampages and Full Moon nights...basically, making their own fears a self-fulfilling prophecy.
So either you get an inspiring story about a very extraordinary person who has managed to just barely scrape by without submitting to fate... surely by creative and interesting means, and plenty of exiting close calls...
...or an action packed story about all the chaos the werewolf causes every time they loose control.
Either way...the story could not possibly be "Boring".
(Baring terrible writing, of course)
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WerewolfKeeper3
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(Alright.
If anyone wants me stop postng just tell me. I hate gettin on other beings nerves, and, as i've said on another web site, misunderstandings are as bad as flea infestations: you spend so much time on working out all the tangels, and by that time, you already have yet another one coming. Now, i have to ask, when the clawless one, (the other voice, which you probably have guessed by now) first posted, it seems some of the remarks about his posting were a bit... i don't know, irritated in sounding. He just wants to know if anyone wants him to be quiet, or if Kirk wants to rip his face off for contantly misreading everything he writes. I doubt thats the case, but other than that, there is no real reason for me to be here. He just doesn't want anyone thinking him an idiot, or for that matter, never wanting him to post again. Doubt this should be on the thread, but he asked me too. Anyway, i do have a comment that relates to what Vuldari wrote, about a werewolf overcoming or succoming to his beast? Well, isn't it possible to have a story in which, the fight with the beast isn't so much the problem, but the fight with monster inside us all. There is a difference, i believe, between what the primal urges tell us to do, and what that thing lurking in the back of our minds wants us to do. It would basically be a story in which one of the sides v.s. the monster, and the remaining side picks which it prefers. Does that sound insteresting, or does it fall flat like my other posts seem to have done?)
If anyone wants me stop postng just tell me. I hate gettin on other beings nerves, and, as i've said on another web site, misunderstandings are as bad as flea infestations: you spend so much time on working out all the tangels, and by that time, you already have yet another one coming. Now, i have to ask, when the clawless one, (the other voice, which you probably have guessed by now) first posted, it seems some of the remarks about his posting were a bit... i don't know, irritated in sounding. He just wants to know if anyone wants him to be quiet, or if Kirk wants to rip his face off for contantly misreading everything he writes. I doubt thats the case, but other than that, there is no real reason for me to be here. He just doesn't want anyone thinking him an idiot, or for that matter, never wanting him to post again. Doubt this should be on the thread, but he asked me too. Anyway, i do have a comment that relates to what Vuldari wrote, about a werewolf overcoming or succoming to his beast? Well, isn't it possible to have a story in which, the fight with the beast isn't so much the problem, but the fight with monster inside us all. There is a difference, i believe, between what the primal urges tell us to do, and what that thing lurking in the back of our minds wants us to do. It would basically be a story in which one of the sides v.s. the monster, and the remaining side picks which it prefers. Does that sound insteresting, or does it fall flat like my other posts seem to have done?)