Alternative Shapeshifters

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Post by Kirk Hammett »

...because I think some of us are not actually daydreaming about "Werewolves" at all, but merely something very similar, and rather than trying to CHANGE Werewolves into that, we could start fresh and create something entirely NEW.
(And No...they don't need to be the stupidly named things I made up as a rushed example)
My daydreams include a very scary looking wolf, like the pictures I put on my other post. Sometihng large, two legged, with a very long bushy tail, huge claws, very sharp canines, a huge mane to reflect the human hair, but a pretty big spiky mane...and huge. Scary.

They are not always evil. They are just ... in the height of power.

Im lost I cant get my point across, my apologies but I wil have to give up. Alcohol and Andy and party calling. :D
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Post by Vuldari »

RedEye wrote:Let the action determine things, not the appearance.
Anyway, that's my take so far.
When did I ever suggest in any of my recent, (or even past) messages that a werewolf LOOK Ugly, or in some way impossible to see as anything other than frightening to look at. That has not been part of this discussion.

This discussion has been about nothing BUT behavior.
RedEye wrote:Can we agree that a Werewolf is essentially Frightening? But not necessarily a Monster.
................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................NO.


...Here is my explanation why:

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In the realm of literature, media, and the very human psyche, there is a fundamental and essential NEED for the existence of the two-dimensional "Monster". From the Boogie-Man, to the Vampire, to Demons, Dragons, and the Restless Dead, there is an instinctual NEED within all human beings to personify all of the fears and evils and harmful forces which they are unable to fight back against into tangible concepts and characters that can more easily be recognized and understood.

...not just in their own minds, but as shared and sympathized fears and metaphors which can be mutually interpreted and understood by all of the community and culture around them. Often there are just so many gray-aria, indistinct and unclear evils which we build up frustration and anxiety about that we just don't know how or where to direct our feelings towards...and some times those pent up feelings can be even WORSE than the evils themselves.

That is why we have MONSTERS. The Gray troubles we face in our everyday lives we are taught and old we should not allow ourselves to FEAR ...not allow ourselves to HATE ...and most definitely, never lash out against in REVENGE.

But as wise as those lessons and advice may be, it remains a simple truth that those Emotions are a natural part of the Human Condition, (and every concious living creature, most likely). One way or another, those feelings need to be acknowledged, identified, and dealt with. One of the most effective ways used by Mankind, since before the advent of our first civilizations until this very day is the shared LOVE/HATE, across all borders and all cultures, for the mythical ETERNAL BLACK and WHITE struggle between 'Good' and 'Evil'.

No one will ever call you a coward for FEARING a True "Monster" ... for it is Truly something that deserves to be feared.

No one will ever accuse you of being unreasonable for HATING it ... for Nothing has ever been more deserving of hate.

...and No one will ever scorn or punish you for wishing to DESTROY the "Monsters" that plague your world...to see them wiped from the land, and especially from your nightmares ... for no creature has ever been more worthy of OBLITERATION.



Although these 'ULTIMATE' monsters do not, nor have ever truly existed in such clear, pure, and tangible forms ... outside of our own vivid imaginations, that is ... our ability to focus all of the Gray evils in our world into mutually accepted, clearly defined incarnations of PURE BLACK EVIL, helps us as a worldwide culture to come to some mutual understandings about what dark elements of our world trouble us the most, what we share in common in our fears, and how we all on the same side, regardless of where we came from, in our shared battle against the forces of EVIL.


Every culture has created it's own Monsters, and there are far too many to list in one sitting, but for CENTURIES, there have always been a few ideas that stood out above all others, crossing borders of culture and language to reach every corner of the globe, which so perfectly define different familiar forms of Evil, universal amongst all peoples, that they are not only LEGENDS, and ICONS of isolated National culture, or 'niche' POP culture, but WORLD Culture.


Dragons - [ The Superior Being. The Beast which is capable of everything that we are not. Stronger...Bigger...Faster... Able to do as it pleases with Humanity helpless to to stop it, at the mighty MONSTERs mercy. ]

Vampires - [ The Immortal Oppressor. The Figure whom preys helplessly upon the weak to make itself stronger. Impossible to kill, for it is already beyond death. Impossible to oppose, for it's influence is greater than any man. The MONSTER of the greed in every Humans heart, made flesh...fed upon the hearts blood. ]

The Risen Dead - [ Ghosts and the Walking Dead/(Zombies). The returning wrath of debts unpaid. The visage of our dearly departed loved ones, stood before us again, threatening harm. Their wrath can not be appeased, for in death, they have no soul, and so are unable to forgive. (A trait considered to be 'Divine') Only the pain left unsoothed in life remains. While all that was good in them has ascended to Heaven, all that remains in the shadow and the shell left behind on the mortal plane is a MONSTER of darkness, hunger, and hate. They are like the embodiment of all Mans regrets in life, and the fear that not even DEATH can wash those evils away. ]

Demons/The Devil - [ EVIL ITSELF, made flesh. Demons are souls that have sworn themselves to serve the creator of all Evil on Earth. Sworn to allegiance to it in exchange for greedy desires in life, or risen from the bowels of Hell itself as the dark masters favorite pets, given strengths and abilities far greater than any mortal being that break even the laws (through Dark Magic) that the creator of light set down to bring order to the world, to enable them to do their dark masters bidding. What can a mere mortal do against a MONSTER of Pure Evil, or the deity of Evils eternal Essence? ]

...and...

Werewolves - [ Man is BEAST. A threatening concept to almost all civilized cultures. A Human being reverts to indulging themselves in all of instincts and behaviors that civilization has come to forbid, such as the indifferent murder and consumption of any living flesh, wild, privately owned, or Human, without conscience or allowance for retribution. Humanity believes it is greater than the wild beasts, and to see themselves behaving as they believe the beasts of the wild behave is more frightening than even the acts themselves, for it suggests that they are not so far above the wild beasts after all, and that they themselves may not be able to resist the wild desires within their OWN hearts. This reversion is manifested, not only in the behavior of the person, but in the twisting and reforming of the humans familiar shape into the form and resemblance of the peoples most familiar, and feared beastly foe, (their most formidable competitor for the food and the earth they need to live), the WOLF. Man becomes his own greatest enemy and is reformed a MONSTER. The beast generates an unparalleled sense of paranoia as it is known to reside within the heart and the flesh of a Human being like themselves, and could be hiding in plain sight right under their nose. How can one bring to justice a Beast which hunts and kills and brings it's mayhem in the form of a beast too familiar and common to track or isolate, which is also able to change it's form and hide by your very side as your own best friend? ...and if your best friend could host such a vicious and terrible beast inside...how can you be so sure that you yourself could resist the call of the wolf and the lure of flesh if the hunger of the wild burned in your blood? ]



Different cultures call these creatures by different names, and interpret their appearances in different ways, but these themes are familiar to almost ALL cultures around the world.


My point is ... like the Vampire, the Werewolf , as a MONSTER, is not just a character from a few obscure legends and fairytales, but a cultural ICON...a Landmark on the roadmap of the Human Psyche.


To claim to be a fan of the character of the "Werewolf", while completely ignoring, rejecting, and choosing to be oblivious to the true POWER and presence it has within the Culture and Psyche of the Human race ... as the MONSTER ... I think is like buying the Declaration of Independence and hanging it on your wall just because you think the calligraphy is pretty.

... do you have any idea of the significance of what you have in your HANDS?! ...


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Am I saying that we should not make stories, art, music and movies about creative interpretations of Werewolves that are NOT exact, faithful representations of that single ideal?

No, No, No, No, NO!...

Write stories about Therian Werewolves that protect the forest from evil hunters and ecosystem destroying corperations...

Draw pictures of a Werewolf in a dress, seasoning a platter of raw meat for her tail-wagging anthro-wolf children, wearing an apron that says "Lick the Cook"...

Make a Movie about the Werewolf Pack that fought against the undue hatred and oppression their race endured and, showing the soft, loving side of the noble beast, ends a millennium of secret warfare by proving they were the good-guys all along.

...WHATEVER...

Not EVERY Werewolf story needs to be about such scary kinds of 'Monsters'.

...but at least some of them do.


Don't forget WHY everyone knows what a "Werewolf" is.


As a Mild-Mannered Shapeshifter, the Werewolf is little more than just another Furry Fan-Fiction character.


...but as The"MONSTER" , the "Werewolf" is a Global Cultural ICON.

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Post by Kirk Hammett »

Nice essay Vuldari. It makes sense. I think it all comes down to what you believe the word monster is. Monster has many meanings. For example, a monster of a personality. Or, something supernatural and strong. Monsters don't have to have monster personalities (Or the other word for monster personality might be 'evil' personality). Does that make sense?

Therefore, monsters don't all have to be evil (As you said up there). But some do. Because it's just more interesting that way.

But I agree with the fact there should be horror werewolves because I love monster werewolves. They are one of my favourite monsters. And I would be scared -censored- to see a werewolf in my house. But then, I am a horror fan.

While my werewolves aren't all necessarily evil, they are still very scary. And in my stories I have some evil werewolves, some not so evil, some species have no control, others do. But a wolf pack in mine may fight viciously for dominance for example. I don't like the whole black and white good werewolf bad werewolf. It is never that way with humans. I like it in comics, because well those are superhero comics! But not elsewhere.

For example, you may have a pack of werewolves. Non evil, law abiding citizens, some may even be vegetarian, others might donate to charity. But when you have a pack, and a heirarchy, the omega is going to get bitten and the alpha is going to get his or her first share of the meal. They will punish insolent members with force. And that's natural to them. (These are just in my stories. Not everyone's have to be that way). That is just one example how my werewolves, while not evil...are not soft werewolves.

-------------

I enjoy these conversations because it helps me find a pretty decent focus on my type of werewolves for any stories I may write. Because of my lack of good expression when I write sometimes, or lack of ability to explain myself. This has helped.
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Post by Vuldari »

I am constantly being mentally torn in half by the subject of "Werewolves".

On the one hand...I am an animal lover. I am also obsessively interested in the concept of physical metamorphosis. I am absolutely in love with the idea of living such an impossible symbiosis with both my Humanity in-tact, and a full Lupine side as well, living as both...being one of my favorite animals whenever I please, and being able to live as they live and see as they see the world, and to be able to take advantage of all the things they can do better than humans can...and just look AWESOME to boot...


While on the other hand ... there is always this dark shadow in the back of my mind reminding me that a werewolf is not known as such a thing, but as a "MONSTER" ... and how powerful and ancient and well known that creature is as an instantly recognizable figure in the culture and mythology of the world, from serious Cryptzoology (the science and teachings of fantastic creatures once thought to possibly be REAL) all the way down to local folklore, and ghost-stories passed down for countless generations by word of mouth...stories of creatures that continue fascinate and terrify us even today.



I prefer Cute, Cuddly animals and big fluffy tails any day of the week over the terror, pain, suffering, gore and evil of a vicious monster in my dreams, waking and asleep...

...but there is just something about the mystique of the legendary monster that draws me in, even as I feel I must cover my eyes and look away.

The legend of the Werewolf isn't a LEGEND because Wolves are cool Animals, (even though they are).

...it is a Legend because it is a "MONSTER".


Even as we continue to play with the idea of making stories about a disruptive defiance of that idea ... I think it is important that we all not forget what a "Werewolf" still is. If we completely loose sight of what has kept the legend of the Werewolf ALIVE for so long ... I fear the power and presence of the creature will slowly wither and fade away.

...and then what reason would any of us have to be meeting here any more?



Is The 'Werewolf' a "Monster"? ...Yes.

Are Wolves Monsters? ...No.


Werewolves are not Wolves, nor are they a race of people, (regardless of how much some of you would like to think otherwise)[/sie]. They do not need an activist group to improve their reputation, or protect them from discrimination. They are a character. They are a Myth...a Legend...a MONSTER.


IMHO...without their legendary reputations as "Monsters", werewolves are nothing.


Without that ... none of the movies, and art, and stories and this comminity would even exist.


In other words... dun dis' da Monster...
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Post by Kirk Hammett »

Vuldari wrote:I am constantly being mentally torn in half by the subject of "Werewolves".

On the one hand...I am an animal lover. I am also obsessively interested in the concept of physical metamorphosis. I am absolutely in love with the idea of living such an impossible symbiosis with both my Humanity in-tact, and a full Lupine side as well, living as both...being one of my favorite animals whenever I please, and being able to live as they live and see as they see the world, and to be able to take advantage of all the things they can do better than humans can...and just look AWESOME to boot...


While on the other hand ... there is always this dark shadow in the back of my mind reminding me that a werewolf is not known as such a thing, but as a "MONSTER" ... and how powerful and ancient and well known that creature is as an instantly recognizable figure in the culture and mythology of the world, from serious Cryptzoology (the science and teachings of fantastic creatures once thought to possibly be REAL) all the way down to local folklore, and ghost-stories passed down for countless generations by word of mouth...stories of creatures that continue fascinate and terrify us even today.



I prefer Cute, Cuddly animals and big fluffy tails any day of the week over the terror, pain, suffering, gore and evil of a vicious monster in my dreams, waking and asleep...

...but there is just something about the mystique of the legendary monster that draws me in, even as I feel I must cover my eyes and look away.

The legend of the Werewolf isn't a LEGEND because Wolves are cool Animals, (even though they are).

...it is a Legend because it is a "MONSTER".


Even as we continue to play with the idea of making stories about a disruptive defiance of that idea ... I think it is important that we all not forget what a "Werewolf" still is. If we completely loose sight of what has kept the legend of the Werewolf ALIVE for so long ... I fear the power and presence of the creature will slowly wither and fade away.

...and then what reason would any of us have to be meeting here any more?



Is The 'Werewolf' a "Monster"? ...Yes.

Are Wolves Monsters? ...No.


Werewolves are not Wolves, nor are they a race of people, (regardless of how much some of you would like to think otherwise)[/sie]. They do not need an activist group to improve their reputation, or protect them from discrimination. They are a character. They are a Myth...a Legend...a MONSTER.


IMHO...without their legendary reputations as "Monsters", werewolves are nothing.


Without that ... none of the movies, and art, and stories and this comminity would even exist.


In other words... dun dis' da Monster...
:? I agreed with you in my post.

My view was that a monster doesn't have to be evil, but can also be evil. My whole point was to say that there are more meanings to the word monster. I am a horror fan.

I also don't support fluffy boring sweet friendly werewolves. Yech. I might like long fluffy tails, but that is because they look better and more balanced. As I said twice before, I love long claws and sharp teeth and glowing eyes and brute strength in a werewolf.

I didn't disagree with you about the monsters at all. No need to press your point, I got it already :|
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Post by Aki »

Frankly, I'm fine with there being different types of werewolves, I may not care them, but it's like Zombies. I happen to adore the old stupid shamblers because they're an awesome enemy. They're not so great alone, but when they mass up, it's an "oh s***" moment. Especially since they keep on coming ....and no matter how far, how fast you run, they will never, ever stop.

So, naturally, I end up disliking the superhuman ghouls known as "Fast zombies" because, IMO, they take away the horror of the Zombie. Even one is dangerous, and they don't have the plodding unstoppable horde to them.

So I can sympathize with the idea of disliking the change in Werewolves. I'd not like all werewolves being the same any more than I'd like shamblers replaced by fast zombies . Variety is good, and a good evil werewolf is way cool. Like the werewolves of the TES series games. I like 'em because they're evil, but they're a bit unique as to why - they're evil because they're the hunter-killer bloodhounds of a God of the Hunt. Which is pretty bad a**.

And even "good" werewolves can be kept somewhat monstrous. The "garou" of Whitewolf's "World of Darkness" setting (or the old one, at least) were the "good guys", fighting the corruption and evil in the world. But they also had this nasty thing called rage that tended to cause a pissed off Garou to turn into his hybrid ("Crinos") form and wreck anything nearby - even if it's best buddy.
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Post by Kirk Hammett »

Aki wrote:Frankly, I'm fine with there being different types of werewolves, I may not care them, but it's like Zombies. I happen to adore the old stupid shamblers because they're an awesome enemy. They're not so great alone, but when they mass up, it's an "oh s***" moment. Especially since they keep on coming ....and no matter how far, how fast you run, they will never, ever stop.

So, naturally, I end up disliking the superhuman ghouls known as "Fast zombies" because, IMO, they take away the horror of the Zombie. Even one is dangerous, and they don't have the plodding unstoppable horde to them.

So I can sympathize with the idea of disliking the change in Werewolves. I'd not like all werewolves being the same any more than I'd like shamblers replaced by fast zombies . Variety is good, and a good evil werewolf is way cool. Like the werewolves of the TES series games. I like 'em because they're evil, but they're a bit unique as to why - they're evil because they're the hunter-killer bloodhounds of a God of the Hunt. Which is pretty bad a**.

And even "good" werewolves can be kept somewhat monstrous. The "garou" of Whitewolf's "World of Darkness" setting (or the old one, at least) were the "good guys", fighting the corruption and evil in the world. But they also had this nasty thing called rage that tended to cause a pissed off Garou to turn into his hybrid ("Crinos") form and wreck anything nearby - even if it's best buddy.
Well said! Damn too many people writing well written things here, except me. :cry:
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agree

Post by White2Tailedwolf »

I tend to agree with Aki on this one. I like variety and seeing different werewolves on different movies is nice. I even hate it when all the werewolves look the same like in American werewolf in paris and all. Some people have different views on what a werewolf looks like and i like a lot of them. I personally dont like the old versions because it takes away from the wolf side and all i see is a very hairy man which is not scary at all. But still, I like the movies anyway. And i'd get a little tired of seeing the same werewolf over and over again. :lol:
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Post by cumulusprotagonist »

"The only universal constant is change."
-Ananomous
Could people not find new characters or MONSTERS to channel their fear with? Like with BLACK and WHITE? Could people not tell the difference between symbolisms in literature and real life? Could people not create two different versions of a story? If you are afraid the traditional werewolf (I do not know much about this but there is something in which I do know) is going to be replaced why not write or finance or do something to create a traditional story yourself? It is wrong to force other people to do something they do not want to do.
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Re: agree

Post by Kirk Hammett »

White2Tailedwolf wrote:I tend to agree with Aki on this one. I like variety and seeing different werewolves on different movies is nice. I even hate it when all the werewolves look the same like in American werewolf in paris and all. Some people have different views on what a werewolf looks like and i like a lot of them. I personally dont like the old versions because it takes away from the wolf side and all i see is a very hairy man which is not scary at all. But still, I like the movies anyway. And i'd get a little tired of seeing the same werewolf over and over again. :lol:
Agreed :P
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Post by Vuldari »

Kirk Hammett wrote::? I agreed with you in my post.

I didn't disagree with you about the monsters at all. No need to press your point, I got it already :|
That message was not directed specifically at you...if it was, I would have mentioned you by name.


...but it still seems like everyone is COMPLETELY missing the point I am trying to make.
cumulusprotagonist wrote:It is wrong to force other people to do something they do not want to do.
White2Tailedwolf wrote:I tend to agree with Aki on this one. I like variety and seeing different werewolves on different movies is nice.
EVERY SINGLE TIME I try to bring up this subject, (on preserving the "Fearsome"/ MONSTER side of the Werewolf), I always mention that I am NOT discouraging the exploration of variant versions, interpretations and views of werewolves, but merely trying to encourage everyone to see the VALUE in remembering and continuing to support the telling of stories about the 'MONSTER' called The Werewolf ALSO.

...and every time you ignore me...fail to notice or see what I am actually trying to say, and start complaining about me trying to force you to all only accept the version of werewolves I am talking about...and make random comments about a werewolves APPEARANCE when I have not been talking about that AT ALL...

You are not listening. You are not paying attention. ...and you are not realizing that that, while you are CLAIMING to support variety, every day I come in here and at least HALF of you attack anyone who wants to make, hear, see or talk about werewolves that DON'T have Tails, that DON'T look absolutely Beautiful, and that are creatures that deserve to be called "MONSTERS".

You only support attractive, good natured, super-powered, fluffy tailed werewolves that either act like what some Nature Documentary told you Wolves act like, or only emulate animal behavior you find entertaining, but otherwise completely normal.

You treat anyone who doesn't support your 'Neo-Werewolf' as the Enemy, and I think that is really, really annoying.



What do I have to do to get you to understand what I am trying to say?

I think that it is important to the continued popularity of the genre of the "Werewolf Story" to maintain and continue to support the legacy of the traditional "Monster" story.

Why?

Why are you all so eager to see "Good Natured" Werewolves? ...why is that such an alluring proposition?

It is BECAUSE of the terrible, gruesome and vicious reputation of the Werewolf Legend.

Light is nothing without the Dark...and vice-versa. If you only know one...you eventually take it for granted.

If the werewolf genre is super-saturated with these up-beat, inspiring, amusing and cute characters and stories, pretty soon it will begin to look a little pointless.

The Genre as a whole NEEDS those terribly frightening, vicious, disturbing stories for there to be anything for your Neo-Werewolves to be a triumphant re-interpretation OF...



I originally came to this website under the general goal of encouraging exactly the kind of open-minded, free spirited, new-age interpretation of a furry LUPINE werewolf that the rest of you are ... under the impression that the majority of Werewolf Fans were all BLOODY- HORROR fans ...and I am still in love with the idea...

...but what I quickly began to discover once I let myself get comfortable here and decided to stick around, was that there really seemed to be very little opposition to the idea at all. In fact...EVERYONE seemed to want it that way. And something just didn't sit right about that in my mind.

What exactly is the point and the value of a creature called a "GOOD Werewolf", if there is no longer going to be such a thing as a BAD one? What exactly is the motivation behind making stories about werewolves that 'defy' the werewolf stereotype, if there no longer IS anything to DEFY?



So...I began to try to suggest ways to balance the equation. If almost ALL werewolves are actually GOOD, then where is the BAD to even the score against all these nifty special abilities they get? Maybe they are not EVIL, but it really SUCKS to be a werewolf, (physically painful, overwhelming, psychologically unsettling), which could drive alot of them CRAZY?

...NOPE... you won't allow that. It feels great, and makes you better in every possible way, and you would have to be an IDIOT to resist it enough to make it hurt. Only 1-763 werewolves can be EVIL. ...and only if that person is a serial-killer, or public enemy #1.

Ooooookayyyy... Well... what about this old folk-tale about these Werewolves that killed a whole bunch of townsfolk, and was not stopped until someone spotted and killed the monster wild wolves that didn't have tails, that turned out to be some of the nicest people in town, but went killer at night. Someone could make a story based off of...

NO ... let's all band together and bash the person who suggested it. That person is an IDIOT, because he thinks that a werewolf should not have a tail in a story, and he said something about really EVIL werewolves. We all HATE that person, and we are going to make long flame threads about the person until they give up and agree to only talk about non-evil werewolves with nice looking tails, or go away. (Or rant about that person who never even visited this board and has no way to defend themself, because someone found a webpage somewhere in which that person described a werewolf as a scary, evil creature, because that is the the only version they are familiar with, and prefer to write stories about.)



Yes...of course you are all ABOUT variety...as long as it is what you want... Image

We NEED the really scary EVIL "MONSTER" werewolves too. I wrote you an entire ESSAY on the important role Monsters play in media and culture to help press the point and make it clear why "Werewolves" (when recognized as a "MONSTER") are such a universally, instantly recognizable icon...which should make it clear why we would be foolish to not take advantage of that, and make use of what the character already has going for it... but you STILL don't seem to understand what the hell I'm talking about.

Do I have to write an entire BOOK on the subject, or film an explorative Documentary to get my point across?

It's like you never read it...as if the entire thread up to this point, (in your eyes) has been the statement , "All Werewolves Have To be ugly, slobbering monsters that don't do anything but murder everyone", and you have been responding to that.

...even though not a single point I have been trying to make has had anything to do with what they look like, and not only have I not stated anywhere that werewolves without all of their fearsome traditional behavioral should not be allowed, but I have made sure to clearly state on several occasions that I ENCOURAGE you to make up any variants of the traditional character role that you please ... asking only that you also give the 'Old-School' werewolf a chance, and allow it to continue to exist, EVEN HERE within The Pack, and maybe even take it's 'Larger Than Life' natural charisma into account when making your own stories and characters...even if it is to find cleaver ways to flip it all upside-down on it's head.



I don't know why I even bother writing so much. After all of this, one of the next 5 - 10 responses is going to be...
somerandompackmember wrote: You can believe whatever you want. ... But I like beautiful werewolves that don't have to be evil, and I think that you are saying that is wrong and that I am not allowed to do that, so I am going to be angry, say something about how mean and closed-minded Vuldari is, and end my message with a frowning or angry emoticon, oblivious to the fact that we have been over this already.


You people are driving me NUTS!!!...
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Post by cumulusprotagonist »

But it is just to much to read<<
:lol:
Maybe I am wrong...

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Post by cumulusprotagonist »

Vuldari you may want to cut it up a bit and not post so much in one sitting. The way it stands now many people will find your posts too intimidating. Break it up into several posts to let the reader "catch their breath".
Maybe I am wrong...

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Post by Vuldari »

cumulusprotagonist wrote:Vuldari you may want to cut it up a bit and not post so much in one sitting. The way it stands now many people will find your posts too intimidating. Break it up into several posts to let the reader "catch their breath".
The "Cliffs Notes" version:

No I did NOT say that I don't want you to explore every possible interpretation of Werewolves Imaginable. I like Variety too.


What I said was that, I think it is important that we continue to support the character of the Werewolf, as it was traditionally known as a "Monster", and encourage the creation of new stories that honor that tradition of a "larger than life" character, in addition to the Neo-Werewolf that The Pack Has been popularizing within itself.

I feel that The Pack has been unfairly harsh on people who suggest Tail-less and/or genuinely "EVIL" Werewolves, (as a whole...not just rare individuals).


I fear that the power and significance of the Werewolf character could be diluted or lost if ties to the more commonly known "Monster" interpretation of the Werewolf character are severed and rejected entirely.



(BTW...my last post before this one was a smoldering rant. Please read with caution...you may get burned.)
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Post by lupine »

I understand what your saying matey, I'm with you on the traditional werebeastie.

I do actually think tho, that it is alive and quite well, here on these message boards. I think the problem we have is that this site is a discussion forum attached to and benefitting the 'Freeborn' movie. A movie about civilised, 'nice', evolved werewolves. It is therefore inevitable that this concept has captured the imagination of pretty much all who visit or frequent these pages. And quite rightly so. Its a fantastically refreshing concept that people have siezed onto and it has prompted peoples imaginations and artistic inclinations to work overtime. Something that I'm very glad for. It means I have a place I can call home, where I am surrounded by like minded people, who, yes, may well be very enthusiastic about friendly werewolves, they may even prefer them that way, so what?
I have and always will be a lover of the traditional werewolf of legend, the evil, vicious, uncontrollable monster that feeds on nubile virgins, sheepdogs and infants.

But I will also happily embrace the idea of 'friendly' were's. If it means more werewolf films, as long as they still retain some Lupine traits, a good TF and a bit of wolfy action, Happy Days.

I don't give a toss if it has a tail or not, sure, I have a preference, but my fave film genre aint exactly spread thick on the ground, so...

I'll take what i can get. :howl:  :oo
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Post by chubhound »

I'm all for a nice even 50/50 split between "good" and "evil" werewolves. But, as far as I've seen, the whole concept of a "good" (or "super-hero") werewolf still seems to be kinda new....or at least not that widespread. Taking all the werewolf books, movies & TV shows that I've seen (and I'm speaking just about the stuff that I PERSONALLY have seen or read), the percentage of werewolves as a "hero" is pretty rare, and most of them tend to be almost an "anti-hero" (or as I like to call 'em, the "bad good guy"). You have John J. York's character from the Werewolf TV series. True he was the protagonist, but when he became a werewolf, he was barely able to restrain himself from killing innocent people. Most of his victims were the bad-guy of the week, but THEY thought he was terrifying...at least right until he ripped them in half. Then you have the Garou/Uratha from White Wolf's game lines (yeah yeah....I know they tend not to be too well recieved here, but I'll go on record & say they're MY favorite portrayal). They can be heroic but they still have a NASTY temper and tend to go bat sh-t postal at the drop of a hat and turn into blood dripping, fur-covered chainsaws. And then there're the werewolves from Kelly Armstrong's books. They tend to be the most "normal" but they still have no problem ripping the throat out of some guy who finds out too much about them (that is, when Elena and Clay aren't going at it like 2 characters from a late night porn movie). The people they kill to protect themselves might have families, wives, children etc....but they don't care about that. They know, so they must die. So there are the only 3 "good" werewolf types that I can think of off the top of my head, and none of them are purely "squeaky clean". All the others I've seen are the "ugly slobbering man eating murderers" from AWIL, AWIP, The Wolf Man, The Howling (I never saw the sequels since I heard they suck), Dog Soldiers etc. The trend towards "super happy fun" werewolves seems to me to be a fairly recent trend, at least in comparison to how long werewolves have been shown in TV, movies, books, folklore etc, as the afforementioned "ugly slobbering EEEEEVIL man eaters". I doubt that type of portrayal is ever going to go away competely. So just relax....those nasty brutal werewolves will most likely always be there. It's just now there are more vocal advocates of the other side of the fence. I bet it'll even out in the long run.
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Post by Kelpten »

:( I'm sorry Vuldari. I definitly fell into the catagory of trying to eradicate the old werewolf, but from now on, I'll give all wolves a fair chance :panting: ! And sorry I didn't understand what you ment :cry:

By the way, where did you get the fox emotes? Are they homemade?
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Post by ravaged_warrior »

Kelpten wrote::( I'm sorry Vuldari. I definitly fell into the catagory of trying to eradicate the old werewolf, but from now on, I'll give all wolves a fair chance :panting: ! And sorry I didn't understand what you ment :cry:

By the way, where did you get the fox emotes? Are they homemade?
He edited a fox picture using the wolf smilies as a guide, if I remember correctly.
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Post by cumulusprotagonist »

I guess I agree with you then Vuldari it is just those long posts made my head hurt... It may be a subconscious feeling that you are expected to read it all at once...
Maybe I am wrong...

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Post by Kirk Hammett »

:?

What a werewolf looks like doesn't have to have anything to do with how evil or scary or monstrous it is.

I know what you are saying. We're all, including you, culprits of squabbling about bad looking werewolves.

In the end I can't honestly be bothered anymore. I own a lot of pictures, comics, books, figurines and films with hairless, tailess, snoutless werewolves. And I love them.

I just can't be stuffed with this stupid {censored} anymore.

So I'm backing off this conversation because well, I'm over it right now. I'm bored. :D

(BTW...my last post before this one was a smoldering rant. Please read with caution...you may get burned.)
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Post by Vuldari »

The more we discuss this, the clearer I think it becomes for me to see, understand and explain what the heck I am talking about.

I know I am repeating myself again, but I just want to re clarify what I have been trying to say, (preferably with fewer words so no one will be too intimidated to read it).

Much, (but not all), of The Pack has been treating the use of the word "Monster", when referring to Werewolves, as if it were a dirty word, (like using the 'N' word in reference to dark skinned people), and I think this is unfair and uncalled for.

I feel that "Monster Stories" about Werewolves remain the biggest draw, and the most widely known and accepted use of the Werewolf character, as it has been for centuries. I LIKE a good Monster story.

The general consensus has been that most pack members want ALL werewolves to be neutral by default, and NEVER assumed to be Evil, unless the person is evil already.

... and that "Curses" and Bloodlust and all of the dark things that one normally associates with the character should not be used, but instead explained away as mere myths and, (as it has been being treated), 'racism'.

Now... I have nothing against this growing popularity of the Neo-Werewolf, but I find the suggestion of the death, banning and/or depopularization of the traditional Monster that I grew up knowing stories of, and having scary dreams about to be a very sad thing.

No longer will The Pack ever support, or allow itself to accept or enjoy stories of "The Big Bad Wolf"? No longer will it be acceptable to think of "The Wolfman" as being one of the guests invited to the Monster Mash dance party? Never again does The Pack want to enjoy a story where wandering through the woods, where werewolves are known to live, and hearing a haunting howl will send shivers of genuine, (and not just misplaced)' FEAR down your spine?
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Post by Vuldari »

(...continued from before...)

I offered the theoretical possibility of defining two, (or more) distinct sects of Werewolves, (making up some stupid ones as a spur-of-the-moment example), as a compromise to allow room for a, GENUINELY TERRIFYING Traditional Werewolf to still exist, and be accepted here, along side the glorified, fantasy, super Man/Wolf hybrid shapeshifting dream creature that has garnered the majority preference here, rather than simply being rewritten, replaced and rejected entirely and forever, in favor of the ," gee, I wish I could be one of those ", alternative.

However, as usual, my message and intentions were grossly misinterpreted by many of you, (thank you to those who understood right away...you helped me maintain my sanity), and a frustrating argument grew out of it.

So here I am again, trying to explain myself one more time, for the sake of anyone who just doesn't get what I have been saying yet.


Now...are there any questions? Is anyone still confused?
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Post by Dreamer »

Kirk Hammett wrote: Therefore, monsters don't all have to be evil (As you said up there). But some do. Because it's just more interesting that way.
Agreed
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Post by Vuldari »

Dreamer wrote:
Kirk Hammett wrote: Therefore, monsters don't all have to be evil (As you said up there). But some do. Because it's just more interesting that way.
Agreed
Right.


Werewolves that are NOT Evil Monsters are an interesting and exiting concept because more traditional Werewolves usually ARE Evil Monsters, and breaking conventions is something that has always been a very satisfying thing for young and/or forward looking, pioneering people to do. ...but that movement, that gesture, and that concept has considerably less value and excitement behind it when the convention being defied has become the minority stance.


Truly, Genuinely and Purely EVIL 'Monsters' have a very significant value in and of themselves, as I covered earlier in this thread, and I think, (in the long run), it is highly beneficial for us, both as fans/supporters of the "Werewolf" genre, and as members of World Culture overall, to continue to tell those kinds of stories...of Monsters and Evil, and inevitable Triumph over it...to keep that legend alive, which is known, Loved and feared world-wide.

(I wasn't just being silly when I mentioned the "Monster Mash" earlier. It is also the Werewolves position in the timeless, fun, and entertaining group of Pop-Culture Monsters ... "Dracula", "The Mummy", "The Frankenstein Monster", and "The Wolfman" ... That I am trying to help preserve. That's just too much fun to just shove under the rug and forget about. ...but that group doesn't make sense if you refuse to look at the Werewolf as a MONSTER any more.)

...but it addition to that, so long as the primary, core, default interpretation of a 'Werewolf' remains that of a Vicious, EVIL, Monster ... the presentation of a creature, named "Werewolf", that exists in complete defiance of that convention will continue to raise eyebrows and stand out as something unique and special.



I would really like to see, for the benefit of continued continued cultural significance and popularity of the character/genre, a more open minded and even support for BOTH sides of this coin. The Traditional, and the Neo-Pop Werewolf.

The Old will grow tired and stale without the New ... but the New has no reason to even exist without the Old. We need BOTH.


---------------------------------------------------------


If only I had started my Action/Comedy Comic already, none of you would have accused me of trying to KILL 'Variety' in the genre. That is never what I have been trying to do at all.

As I have tried to say before, there are certain ideas and moods that I think need to be maintained for the primary 'essence' of the Werewolf character to remain potent and true to itself ... but different situations, forms of media, and types of stories require a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT set of rules and expectations.

The characters I have been creating for this (conceptual) series break every single one of the guidelines that I have disruptfully suggested in various threads, at some point or another. Some characters are sweet and cuddly...others are laid back and careless...and a few are just insanely UBERLY powerful. ...for example, though it will be presented as VERY unusual, there will be points where characters are thrown through walls, and some would be perfectly capable of tossing a car if they wanted to. ...godlike powers, etc. etc. ...

The story is ready, but the ART is not.

...back to the point, if any of you had seen what I have planned for this story, you would know that I am not 'forbidding' anyone to create well-disciplined, good natured, cool-looking, strong and intimidating but also sweet Werewolf characters...since that pretty much describes the main character of my story, (who still needs a name).
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Post by Rhuen »

(this post appears in two different threads because it fits in both)

here is a thought

what is the difference between a

Werewolf
&
a Wolf-Shifter

the answer to me is control over the animal side.

a werewolf becomes like a wolfdog, a mix of instincts, this time between such radically different species as a human and a wolf so we get something that is basically suffering from insanity.

a Wolf-Shifter would be a special ability where the person assumes the shape, likeness, and proportional powers of a wolf-human hybrid but aside from maybe a few manirism changes is still in control and human underneath.
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